The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning. Present is Shirley Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh, the 12 jurors and the court reporter. This is September the lOth, 2014. This morning we are going to start out by watching a series of video clips that depict Dorian Johnson discussing what he saw as an eyewitness in this case.

    As you recall, Dorian Johnson was the person who was with Mike Brown at the time of the shooting.

    There is approximately six video clips that you will see. And once you see those videos, then we'll also provide you with a transcript and an interview. I think it is approximately two hours and 13 minutes, something like that, interview that Dorian Johnson gave to the FBI, and St. Louis County Police were also present. So you will hear his statement to them.

    And then after that, we'll likely break for lunch and when we resume in the afternoon, we anticipate that Dorian Johnson will testify.

    So with that bit of an introduction, Kathi Alizadeh is operating the laptop to get us started. And I think we are projecting, correct?

  • Just for explanation.

  • No, these are video.

  • These are videos that were on news outlets and some of them, some of these clips contain other statements from other people, comments reporters have made about the incident. And as much as possible, I want to exclude those.

    So it will take me a second, I have my notes where we are starting and stopping on these and it will take me a second on each clip to get to that point. And then we will start it and you will see that clip.

    The only time you will hear from a reporter is when they're asking questions of Dorian Johnson, obviously, to understand his statement, you need to hear the questions.

    So as much as I can, I'm going to get to wherever I need to get. I'm hoping that when I hit this, we are going to see it and hear it.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 9 marked for identification.)

  • This is what I've marked, it is a disc, it is marked Grand Jury 9. I didn't stay last night to look at my exhibits, I'm hoping that's the next number.

    This is a disc that contains video clips of interviews of Dorian Johnson and the first clip is on KTVI. The date of the interview is 8/9/14 and I'm starting this clip at one minute and seven seconds into the clip, and I am going to stop it at one minute and 20 seconds into the clip. None of these are terribly long. They are news clips.

    (We have a pause.)

  • Just for the record, we had a brief break because we were having difficulty with the audio. I think we have that resolved. So once again, and actually now this is starting at 106 and I will try to stop it at 120.

    (Playing the video at this time)

  • So I stopped that at 120. Is there anybody that needs to see that again and hear that again?

    Yeah, I need to see it again. It looks like the volume was up kind of loud, I can't pick up what he's saying. If you would put that at like half.

    (Playing the video clip.)

  • Anybody else need to hear it again?

    So the next is a clip from CNN. The date is August 12th of 2014. I'm starting the recording at 19 seconds into the clip and I will end it at six minutes and six seconds into the clip.

    (Playing the clip.)

  • Does anybody want to hear that again? The next clip is KSDK on August 12th of this year, 2014. I'm playing starting at actually 29 seconds and I will stop it at two minutes and 40 seconds.

    (Playing the clip.)

  • Anybody want to hear that clip again? Miss Kathi, what date was the second video?

  • Second video was on the 12th.

    That was the 12th.

  • So the next video is MSNBC, it is also on August 12th of this year. I'm going to start it at 27 seconds and it goes to a minute 47 seconds. And actually, immediately after this clip is another MSNBC clip that is a continuation of that interview you will see a little overlap, but this interview sounds like it kind of gets cut off, but then on the next clip it continues.

    (Video clip is being played.)

  • Anybody want to see that part again?

    So again, the next clip is also MSNBC and it is a continuation of the same show or program. I'm going to start it at the beginning of this clip. So zero seconds and it runs until nine minutes and 21 seconds and then continues onto the next clip as well.

    (Video clip being played.)

  • Does anybody want to see that again? It continues onto the next clip.

    (Video clip is being played.)

  • So I'm continuing the next clip. You can see it started with the last question that he asked on the previous clip, so this next clip will go from zero to 24 seconds. And this is also again it is MSNBC on August 12th.

    (Video clip is being played.)

  • I actually stopped it at 29 seconds accidently, asleep at the switch.

    Anybody want so see that brief clip again? And then this is the last clip. This is KSDK also on the 13th, I'm sorry, it was aired on the 13th. I think what you will see is that this is a part of an interview that was done, and you actually saw a part of the same interview in the third clip I played, which was aired on the 12th.

    So I believe this interview occurred on the 12th, not the 13th, but this, but this aired on the 13th. So it is 33 seconds.

    I'm going stop it a two minutes and 40 seconds.

    (Video clip is being played at this time.)

  • Okay. So that is the last clip on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 9. Does anybody want to see that again or any other clips?

    And again, this is available to you at any time, you know, during this investigation. You want to hear it or see it again, we'll make sure you have the opportunity to do that.

  • I'm going to go get the transcripts.

  • She was going to bring them into when they were done.

    (Recess)

  • We're back on the record. It is approximately what, 9:45 or so.

    Right now we're going to play the recorded interview of Dorian Johnson which occurred on August the 13th, 2014. An interview he had with the, an agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and also a detective from St. Louis County.

    This interview is approximately two hours and 13 minutes long. We provided you with transcripts of the interview. You can write on these transcripts if you wish.

    Kathi, did you have something else you want to say about that?

  • At any time, you know, we discussed this during the break that if, since this is over two hours long, if anybody needs to take a break in the middle of it, let me know, I will try to find a place where it is kind of a pause to stop.

    And there was a question during the break by one of the jurors about whether you can ask witnesses questions when they testify. And I know you have been so far, but of course, that's true of any witness.

    We don't have a witness right now, this is just obviously the audio interview, but any time a witness is before you and been sworn in, you may inquire of anything that you think is relevant and we want you to.

    Sheila and I will ask questions of witnesses as we have been going on. If at any time you want to inquire, anything is relevant. There is no, there is no objections to questions and we would have in a courtroom or anything of that nature, okay.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 10 marked for identification.)

  • So with that being said, I'm going to play Grand Jury Exhibit 10, which is a DVD and it is an audio recording, and for the record, this DVD contains a number of interviews of other witnesses. And so for the record, I'm going to be playing the interview of Dorian Johnson and Sheila said the transcript of that interview is given to you.

    (Interview is being played at this time.)

  • Anybody want to take a break right now or keep going?

    It is 11:17, let's take about a five minute or so break and stand up and move around a little bit.

    (Recess)

  • It is 11:24 and I'm going to resume the playing of the interview of Dorian Johnson.

    (The interview is being played.)

    (End of the playing of the interview of Mr. Johnson.)

  • It is 12:13, I think your lunch is going to be here at 12:30. What I would propose we do because this is not going to take very long at all is that I have what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 11.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 11 marked for identification.)

  • Which is another disc or DVD and it contains video from the Ferguson Market, the incident you heard Dorian Johnson talk about. They went in, got the Cigarillos and left the store. They are pretty brief clips. You want to watch them now since we have 15 minutes and then I thought during lunch, you also heard during his interview that he was drawing on some maps and we have copies of those maps. And also he made a drawing I can't find it in my office right now, I think Sheila might have one.

    I thought while you are eating lunch, you can pass around those maps and look at them as you are relaxing if you want to. This will only take a couple minutes. You all right with me playing this now?

    So for the record a DVD, that on the DVD itself it says 14-43984, and it says video segments.

    There is no audio with this disc.

    (Video is being played at this time.)

  • Now, for the record that was called register snippet and that was a view of where the cash register is and the counter is.

    So this next snippet, it is called door snippet. It is at the door of the food store, the convenience store.

    (Playing of the video clip.)

  • Would anybody like to see those snippets again? And of course, you can watch them at any other time you wish.

    Can we ask you a question, both, either one of you a question about maybe we'll find out more later, but how this pertains or relates to the knowledge that maybe Officer Wilson would of had at the time?

  • You will hear some evidence about that.

    Okay.

  • There will be, we have a lot of witnesses to call still.

    Okay.

  • A lot of these things, it is difficult for us to, if we were in a trial, you try to put things on in order that people can make sense of it. But in a trial you make an opening statement so you can outline for the jury what the evidence is going to be.

    But we are not doing that here, and so you all understand you are hearing things and not knowing what's left to come.

    There will be, I believe, other witnesses who talk about that, so we'll just have to wait and see how that testimony comes in.

    Will we hear testimony any of witnesses inside the store to the events that happened in the store?

  • Possibly. Sheila and I have not made out our list. Our intention is to call as many people as we can. Some people may not be cooperative. We will serve subpoenas on people who don't voluntarily agree to come in.

    I don't know how else to explain that other than we are going to have as many people as we can, that we think know anything about this coming in and testifying. So there will be many, many witnesses to come, all right?

    So at this time it is 12:23, if you all will just break for lunch and your lunch will be here in less than ten minutes. And the plan right now is shortly after 1:00, we'll give you an update of when we might start up in the afternoon.

    (Recess)

  • So present is Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh, Dorian Johnston is our witness. We have 12 grand jurors and the court reporter.

    Dorian Johnson, I said your name, I generally ask

  • Sheila, he needs to be sworn in.

  • Thank you.

    DORIAN JOHNSON, of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • So introduce yourself to the grand jurors?

  • Good afternoon everybody. My name is Dorian Johnson, as you all well know. I'm thankful that you all could come, part of your busy schedule, I don't know if you all have anything else to do, I'm thankful you can come and hear my story.

  • Thank you. Now, Dorian, I stand in the back of the room. I do that so that we can have a conversation and you will talk loud enough for even me to hear you. These mikes that you see, they are just recording, they're not really making your voice louder, so speak up for me, okay? We have a lot of fans in here to try to keep the room a little bit cooler.

  • Okay, yes, ma'am.

  • Okay, good, that's better. Now, you came here on your own free will; is that correct?

  • Correct, yes.

  • You do have an attorney, your attorney is Freeman Bosley?

  • That's correct also.

  • And he's outside sitting, he cannot be a part of the testimony, he cannot be in here while you testify, but he's outside and you know that if you ever want to take a break and consult with him, or talk to him, you have a right to do that.

  • Do you understand?

  • Your mother came too, as a matter of fact?

  • Oh, yes, she's here with me also.

  • And she's in the TV room right now. We made her comfortable sitting in the TV room.

    Now, we told you that you are not a focus of any criminal charges, right?

  • That we just want to hear from you being the person that was with Michael Brown that day, in your own words, what happened, that's what we are here for. We are not here to prosecute you. You may tell us some things that have to do with criminal behavior. I know there is an incident at the store, at the Ferguson Market. We will play that video and ask you to tell us what's going on there.

    There is some talk about smoking weed and those kind of things, but that's not anything that we are here to prosecute you for. I want to make that clear on the record, okay?

  • Because we want you to feel free and comfortable to tell us only the truth here, that's what we are trying to do. This is a fact finding mission, okay?

  • All right. So with that said, let's talk about you knew Mike Brown, right? You call him Big Mike?

  • I'm going to ask if I can refer to him as Big Mike, that's the way it sounds funny saying if it is okay with the jury.

  • Absolutely, I will call him Big Mike too if you don't mind.

  • So you were good friends with Big Mike?

  • We were good friends, but not childhood friends.

  • So tell us how you met Big Mike?

  • I met Big Mike, I recently had, well, not recently, but I just moved in those apartments, I had me and my girlfriend, my daughter, we were staying in the apartment, two bedroom apartment, I had a roommate. I just moved over there.

    I only been staying in those apartments for about eight months. I met Big Mike around the fifth month that I was living there. I met him through a friend that I know from the area, neighborhood down the street where he lived.

  • So when he introduced Big Mike, they came to my apartment one day, they want to play video games, you know, relax and have conversation. And I didn't have a problem with that.

    So they came over, and when he came to my door, he was real quiet when he came in, you know, he was the biggest person in the room. So it struck me as kind of strange, I don't really be around people that I don't know. So I asked him a question, I was like, hey, how you doing. I live here, this is my house.

    And he spoke back to me, he said I'm all right, you know. And he just kind of kept it to hisself. I felt that he was good, he was just a person that didn't speak a lot. So he was all right with me to be in my house.

  • Did you socialize with him on a regular basis after that or how often would you say you was in his presence?

  • Like I said, it was my apartment, so you know, I had bills and things like that. I was working at the time of me first moving into the apartments. I recently lost my job around the sixth month, I met him in the fifth month, so now I'm on the verge of finding new work and finding a way to pay the bills. So I was not able to connect with him on a daily basis or even every other day because I'm trying to find work.

  • And what was your address at the time that you met him? A

  • And did he live in that same apartment complex?

  • No, he did not. He stayed in an apartment complex behind, there is another one called Northwinds and it was right behind Canfield. When I met him, the time that I met him.

  • When you met him. And on August the 9th at the time of the shooting, was he living in Northwinds.

  • No, at that time he had recently moved out of his grandmother's house. He was staying with a friend that I knew in Canfield across the parking lot.

  • Okay. All right. So when you first met him, he was living with his grandmother in Northwinds?

  • Correct, yes, ma'am.

  • And so after you met him, so you had known him before the shooting probably a couple of months, two to three months?

  • Yes, maybe a month or two.

  • A month or two?

  • A month or two.

  • But you really didn't hang out with him?

  • No, ma'am, not on a daily basis.

  • You were a few years older?

  • He was 18 you were 22?

  • 22, yes, ma'am.

  • But you liked him?

  • Right, he was a real comfortable guy. I didn't feel a threat from him to where I could, you know, I could let him around my family, my daughter and my girlfriend and let him into my home. He was that comfortable around me that I could, you know, I could trust that he wouldn't bring harm to me and anybody around me.

  • He had been to your home before?

  • Yes, ma'am, once.

  • And he knew your girlfriend?

  • I had introduced him to each other, I introduce anybody that comes over to my girlfriend and let them know we live here as a family, not as she's visiting, you know, she is with me.

  • Okay. Had you ever been to his grandmother's house?

  • One time, but I never met anyone in his family. At that time I think his grandmother was real strict on who she let inside her home. So at that time I didn't know them that well, so he was telling me that you should come around more, my granny, she will like you, you will be able to come in.

    And at that time I really wasn't, you know, into, I didn't have the time for it, like I said because like I said, I was still on the verge of looking for new work.

  • I guess it is fair to say you guys really didn't hang out much, he was somebody that you was comfortable with?

  • Correct, that's exactly.

  • Okay. So we're going to be talking a lot about August the 9th, you realize that?

  • This is the day of the shooting. Tell us how your day began, August the 9th?

  • August the 9th, it began like any other day. I start my morning, I wake up, I take a shower, and I ask my girl does she like breakfast, what would she like for breakfast. I head out to go get it. Upon getting breakfast I get me some Cigarillos. I smoke marijuana in my mornings when I start my day off, so I was going headed to the store.

  • Now wait a minute, just stop here to now and then to make sure we are all clear. So that is kind of what generally happens for you in the morning?

  • In the morning, yes.

  • On August the 9th, you got up, was it around seven something?

  • Around 7:00 that morning.

  • 7:00. Did you smoke marijuana that morning?

  • I didn't actually get a chance to smoke, I was going to get some Cigarillos because I didn't have any, and there was a guy in the complex who sold them.

  • Who sold the Cigarillos?

  • Yes, he sold the Cigarillos, so I didn't initially have to go to the stores.

  • I was going to ask you, was the market open at seven or not?

  • Did you get Cigarillos from another guy that morning?

  • No, I actually did not.

  • Tell us what happened after you got up?

  • When I got up and got dressed up or whatnot, I leave out my front door coming down my balcony, I stay on the third floor. I come down my balcony, around my building. I see Big Mike across the parking lot, the apartment complex is set up in the drive through areas, once you come out to it, you can see right across, there is nothing blocking it.

    I saw him at 7:00 in the morning, he was helping someone put some kids in the car, he was putting some kids in the car for his auntie, I believe it was.

  • Okay. And what, did you go over to where he was or did he come to you?

  • Yeah, just coincidently the guy who I was going to is like a path is passing up the building where he is living in now. So I was going to pass the building whether he was outside or not, just coincidentally he was outside and he was alone at the time.

    He said the friend that I knew that he was staying with, the one that I knew, he was upstairs asleep.

  • What was that friend's name?

  • His name was

  • Okay. So you didn't interact with at that time?

  • And so how did you and Mike, based on information I've heard, you guys kind of hooked up at that point, that morning?

  • Yeah, when I saw him, like I said, we wasn't real childhood friends, but he was cool enough to me if I saw him I would stop and speak to him.

    So I stopped and spoke to him. He asked me where I was headed to. I told him, I was going to get some rillos and get something to eat for me and my girl, I'm headed back to the house. He was like okay, well, I'll match you. I guess he had his own weed, so he said he would match me one. Matching is, if you don't know, is just someone I will roll the weed, he will roll the blunt, we both exchange blunts.

  • In matching does that mean that one person has the weed and one person has the rillos?

  • One person has their weed and rillos, the other person has his weed and rillos and they smoke together, it is just smoking together basically.

  • So he said he would match you?

  • And then what happened?

  • He stopped and talked to some construction workers. There was two construction workers that was doing work on the bottom floor at the time of his building. They was doing work on my building also, but they was doing work at his building and he had stopped and said something to them. I really didn't hear, but I notice that the construction worker, he stopped working and he didn't have like a frown on his face, so much as he was being, you know, back and forth complying. They was having a nice little conversation, but it wasn't that long for about one are two minutes.

  • So you could not hear what they were saying?

  • No, I couldn't hear what they were saying. I wasn't really focusing on their conversation because, you know, it didn't have anything to do with me. I had my mission that I was going to do, so I guess, you know, at the time I didn't really think the construction worker would say anything, you know, it is the general neighborhood I live in.

  • Had you all smoked, matched and smoked yet?

  • Not yet, no.

  • You said there was a person in the complex that actually sold the rillos?

  • Is that where you were headed?

  • That's where I was headed, yes.

  • But that changed?

  • Yes, it changed.

  • Tell us how?

  • It changed. We started talking, our conversation was about sports, he was into clothes and fashion, our conversation was drifting from topic to topic, but really based on sports, design, girls or what our future plans was.

    He was just telling me he was about to go off to school or go to school. I was telling him about my past experience in school. I was in school before Lincoln University, when I graduated high school, I went straight to school. So I was telling him some challenges that he was going to face, even though he wasn't at a university, he was going to face some challenges. Basically our conversation was about future, future emphasis.

  • It kind of took my mind off of going to the person in the complex because he didn't know the guy that I was going to. Big Mike, he didn't know the guy I was going to get the rillos from. When I told him I was going to get Cigarillos, he was like, I need one too. Let's walk to the store.

    By that time the conversation was so deep that I forgot that there was a person there that I was going to, so we ended up just walking to the store.

  • Any idea, I know timing is difficult, but if you started out at seven-ish in the morning, any idea how long, how much time went by before you got to the market?

  • Before we got to the market, I mean, it wasn't really an hour, it wasn't that long, but our conversation because he had to go, I asked him could he go check on my friend that I knew ask him if he wanted to walk to the store with us. He said, yeah, he went up to go check on him. When he came back down, he told me that he was really sleepy, he didn't feel like it, he wanted to sleep in that morning.

    So that's basically what 30 minutes, I'm not real pressed on time, but it could have been more than an hour before we started walking.

  • So from the time you left Canfield Green and then you saw Mike, Big Mike talked to the construction worker, you all talked some more and then you walked to the market?

  • Okay. Did you go get anything to eat first or you went to the market first?

  • No, we went straight to the market.

  • Market, okay. So tell us about the market, what happened at the market?

  • At the market, now, prior to walking to the store, never came up that he didn't have any money. I had money, I had money in my pocket. It never came up he didn't have any money or what we were going to do in the store because we already knew we was going to purchase Cigarillos, in my mind that's what we were going to do.

    It didn't strike me, I never thought that he didn't have any money because like I said, when I did see him the times that I see him, he dressed nice and next generation clothing, so it is kind of pricier, so I figure that he had money.

  • When we got to the store, while we're in the store, Big Mike talks to the store clerk faced eye-to-eye, face-to-face. I'm standing right behind Big Mike.

  • Is it a female or male store clerk?

  • It is a male store clerk that he's talking to. I also see the female store clerk, she's at her register and she is just looking at us.

  • But he is talking to the male store clerk?

  • Yes, he is talking to the male store clerk.

  • As he is talking to the male store clerk, the male store clerk ask him what does he want. Big Mike says in a very not, you know, threatening voice he just said, and while he was saying what he wanted, he said I want these box of Cigarillos. While he was saying it, he was leaning forward to grab them.

  • He leaned forward, but it wasn't a snatch and grab motion like he did it really quickly. He did it like, like he did it before I should say. Once he reached over the counter the first time, the store clerk, he was standing right in front of him, he never did anything, he didn't say anything, the first time, he didn't smack his hand down or anything like that.

    That was the time that he pulled back and he handed the box, it was a box of mini Cigarillos, 69 cent Cigarillos. It was just a box of them. He turned around and handed those to me.

  • Now, at this time I still didn't think that he was not going to pay for them because I have saw people purchase a lot of Cigarillos at one time, a large amount. It is not that much 30 or $40, you can buy you a box.

    It wasn't until he went back the second time and grabbed a handful of the single Cigarillos. Now first he grabbed the box and the store clerk did nothing, this time he was going back to grab the single Cigarillos. As he was coming back, the store clerk did a late response and he swung at his hand, but he missed because he was so late, he smacked the counter.

  • The store clerk did?

  • The store clerk did.

  • This is behind the counter that this is occurring, the store clerk is behind the counter?

  • The store clerk is behind the counter, Big Mike never went behind the counter.

  • He was standing in front of the register, I was standing right behind him, there was another male, he was inside the store, he had just purchased something. We were, the time where he snatched back and the store clerk missed, he kind of hit the top

  • 34 of some Cigarillos, which made some of them fall. And Big Mike turned to pick them up, and as he picked those up, he faced towards the door, that's when I knew okay, something is not right here.

    I didn't see, from where I was standing, I didn't see money get transferred to the store clerk and that's why I sat the box of Cigarillos back on the counter. I've been to the store a lot of times.

  • Did the store clerk say anything or did Big Mike say anything to the store clerk when the store clerk swatted at his hand?

  • At that time, no.

  • Nobody said anything?

  • No one said, words were not exchanged at the time that I can hear.

  • Because I'm standing behind him, but I'm trying to gather up, am I being pranked or is this something. Because I didn't hang out with Big Mike on a day-to-day basis, I didn't know how well his relationship was to the store clerk, so I didn't know was, you know, did he do this all the time or anything like that, I didn't know. I was trying to gather that in my head at the time.

    Now, while all of this is going on, Big Mike is making his way towards the door. The store clerk had came around, now he came around his register and he's making his way to the door. He's not like running or anything like that, more a pace walking and when he got to the front door, he didn't get there yet because a man, like I said, there was another male customer in there at the time. He had just purchased something. As he's leaving out, he's kind of holding the door open like he's watching, but he's trying to get away at the same time, like he didn't have nothing to do with it, but he is watching. I see him holding the door open.

    As he let the door close, Big Mike was almost at the door, so he was going to put his hand on the door to, you know, to push the door open.

    By that time the store clerk had got around and he was almost in front of the door, he didn't get there right directly in front of the door so much as put his hand on the door.

    Big Mike, Big Mike thrushed the door open to where the store clerk, it slipped out of his hand, so the door flew open. And at that time I was, I knew, I saw what was going on, but I didn't know it was going to happen that way. So I was trying to pull myself as far away from the initial contact with the store clerk as possible because I didn't know what was going on.

    So at that time when he slung the door open, I was making my way, I was trying to get around Big Mike and the store clerk to exit the store because I didn't want any part of it, I knew there was cameras in the store.

    When Big Mike tried to go out and thrush the door open and came out of the store clerk's hand. The store clerk then tried to grab Big Mike and Big Mike kind of reverses the grab and grab, like it was a very fast motion, but the store clerk never came off of neither one of his feet. He never fell on the floor or got punched or anything like that, it was a very fast motion, just a shove.

  • So when this grabbing is occurring, is Big Mike saying anything?

  • At the time all he said was, get back.

  • Big Mike told him to get back?

  • Big Mike told the store clerk to get back.

  • What about the store clerk, is he saying anything?

  • He didn't say anything else, but the last time I heard the store clerk saying something, we were walking out of the store and I heard the store clerk say, I'm going to call the police.

  • And did Big Mike say anything in response to that?

  • Just kept walking.

  • Okay. What did you guys do then, did you go and get something to eat?

  • At that time eating and all of those other things that I had on my mind were left field. I had just witnessed something occur that I feel like if not, you know, I was there. So I walked in with him, I felt like I was an accomplice.

    I was trying to figure it out in my head at the time we were leaving out of the store like, all right, I didn't know this was going to happen. I didn't touch anything, but I did see what just happened and I know there was a crime.

  • Did you all talk about it, did you and Big Mike talk about it?

  • What did you all say?

  • I asked him, I looked at him, actually, looked at him for a while and stared at him because the times when I did meet him before that day, he didn't strike me as a person who would do anything like that. He never talked about any crimes or anything like that. And prior to that day, it shocked me a lot, it shocked me a lot. So I was asking him, I was like, you know hey, I don't do stuff like that. What's going on.

    And so much is giving me an answer as to why he did it was he was basically laughing it off, be cool, be calm, stuff like that laughing it off but in my head I'm like, I can't be calm, I can't be cool because I know what just happened and we were on camera.

  • Did you talk to him about being on camera?

  • I never said that, but I knew we were on camera.

  • Did he appear as if he had, was intoxicated or impaired in any way at that time?

  • No, like I said, the conversation leading up to the store was a general conversation I would have with anybody any other day. There was nothing strange about the conversation. He didn't say any words that made me feel like you need to sit down or anything like that. Up until that point I thought he was mindful of everything that was going on at the time.

  • So when you first encountered him or first made contact with him that morning, you said you all had never smoked together between the time you caught up with him to the time you went to the store?

  • Did he seem like he had some marijuana or something before you saw him that morning? Basically what you know of him?

  • Yeah, based on what I saw of him that morning before we walked to the store, he didn't look like he smoked anything that morning or anything like that at that time.

  • Okay. So you guys are walking towards West Florissant?

  • We are waking down West Florissant.

  • On West Florissant?

  • Now we are walking down West Florissant, from Ferguson Market to Canfield is actually like, walking is like a four minute, five minute walk, especially when you are having a conversation talking, could be longer, could be shorter, but in that timeframe of walking to Canfield, I saw a police cruiser coming down, coming down West Florissant. It was a Ferguson cruiser, it was a truck.

    At that time in my head I was like, wow, he called the police. They came really quickly, I knew that they would probably come quickly. I was just, wow, we're really going to get locked up, this is going to happen.

    But when the police officer, you know, they passed us, the first car never stopped at the Ferguson Market. The first car stopped at McDonald's right next to the Ferguson Market and they kind of just sit on the lot. And that kind of struck me as odd. I was like, wow, maybe he didn't call the police at that time. Maybe he didn't call the police or they didn't get the dispatch call or anything like that because they drove past us and at no point in time, the shorts that I had on, I had on pajama shorts, I didn't have pockets on them.

    I was not able to grab Cigarillos out of Big Mike's hand to put in my pocket, he had pockets. He did not put the Cigarillos in his pocket. The Cigarillos now he has them in both hands, now he is spreading them evenly apart and we are walking down plain sight West Florissant to Canfield.

  • You are not like running or hiding?

  • Not running or not hiding, we are in plain sight walking down the sidewalk while we are on West Florissant and I see the police cruiser.

  • You walk to West Florissant and then what is the street that takes you into Canfield Apartments?

  • Canfield Drive.

  • Canfield Drive. So you walk up Canfield Drive?

  • Well, once we get to Canfield, I see another police cruiser pass us by. Now this one, I believe, in my mind I believe he was going to the store to check the car if the store clerk made the call. At that time I wasn't aware, but I heard him say as I was walking out the store that he was going to call the police.

    And seeing two police squad cars before we got to Canfield, it made me believe that he did call the police and if so, why didn't they pull up on us at that time.

    But we got to Canfield and now we're walking down Canfield, like I said, we wasn't running, we wasn't ducking behind bushes or anything like that.

  • There is not a lot of cars out on Canfield out at this time, a lot of traffic?

  • At that time there was not a lot of traffic, maybe two or three cars passed, which is, you know, not that much traffic up and down Canfield to what is backed up two or three cars will pass you going both ways.

  • This is a Saturday?

  • And according to the information, the records, it is somewhere around 11-ish or so, right around noon time that you guys were at that store?

  • According to the information, like I said.

  • Would that sound reasonable to you if you heard that?

  • It sounds about right, about 11:30 or 12-ish maybe.

  • Okay, okay. So now you are walking, I guess, east on Canfield?

  • All right. And tell us what happens?

  • We are going down Canfield on the sidewalk. As we approach, we get close to the leasing center, the leasing office is right at the beginning of Canfield.

    The conversation we was having at this point, we was talking the same, the conversation never changed about what we were talking about future goals and stuff like that, what we were planning on doing.

    And basically he was asking me questions on how did I transform to coming from where I was and getting on track and now I have my own apartment and stuff like that, I was just telling him a few things that I went through in my life that made me change and stuff like that.

    I knew he wasn't someone like me, I knew he didn't grow up where I grew up from, where there was a bunch of violent gangs and violent stuff occurring all the time. I knew that much about because I read from his demeanor he didn't come up that way. I'm telling him about my life story and how I come up from a bunch of tragedies. I went to school, I was still able to do things that I need to do in life.

    At that time he asked, at that time there was no cars, no traffic, no one was coming up or down Canfield Drive. We got in the middle of the street, got into the middle of the street. We're walking in the middle, I'm in front of Big Mike and he's right behind me. He's real big so I know people can see him right above me.

    So we are walking on the street. At that time we are walking like 30 seconds, I'm not really on the time preferences, about 30 seconds and traffic started going, but no one blew their horns, no one made irregular turns to get around us like we were in the way and no one yelled out their windows, you guys are in the way, get out of the street, anything like that. Two or three cars had passed us.

  • Let me ask you a question. Where were you guys headed at this point?

  • At this point we was headed back to my house or his house because where we were staying, like I said, we were staying directly apart from each other, but on opposite side of the streets. I lived on this side, my building was on this side and the building he was staying in at that time was on the other side of the street.

  • So you hadn't decided whose place you were going to go to yet?

  • We hadn't made it to that point yet.

  • Okay. And your plan was to go and smoke?

  • Yeah, smoke and something like that?

  • So you hadn't decided whose house yet.

  • Okay. So go ahead and finish.

  • As we're walking down the street, now I see the police cruiser approaching us, coming up west going back towards West Florissant. The police cruiser is approaching us, right before the police cruiser approached us, two cars had passed us already. Nobody said anything like we are in the street or nothing like that.

    When he got right directly on the side of us, the police officer Darren Wilson, when he got on the side of us he rolled his window down and he said, get on the sidewalk, but it wasn't in a polite manner, it was very rudely.

  • You can say whatever he said.

  • He said get the F on the sidewalk.

  • That's the get the --

  • Get the fuck on the sidewalk.

  • Had you ever have had any interaction with him before?

  • No, ma'am, I had never seen him before.

  • You had never seen him before. Do you know if Big Mike had ever seen him before?

  • We didn't get a chance to talk about it. Like I said, I just moved in that area, I really wasn't caught up too much in the police or anything like that, I go to work and come home.

  • Nobody said oh, I know him?

  • Yeah, nobody said anything like that, it was just me and Big Mike. He didn't say anything at the time when the police pulled up on the side of us. The initial pull up Big Mike said, he didn't say anything. I was the one that was talking when the police officer said get the F on the sidewalk. I told the police officer we was just a minute away from our destination, I live in Canfield and we'll be off the street closely.

    Now, at that time I was looking at the officer's face, but not really in his eyes. I really didn't look back up at Big Mike, he didn't say anything. I was the one talking to the officer and I wasn't loud with the officer or anything like that. I was just telling him where we were headed to.

  • How close were you and Big Mike at this time?

  • At this time me and Big Mike, he's like right on my back.

  • He's behind you, single file?

  • Yes, he's right behind me, single file.

  • All right, go ahead.

  • As I'm telling the police officer we were just going to get out of the street, we were close to our destination, I stayed in Canfield. I believe that he was pulling off. So we continued to walk. In my mind I thought he was just, you know, okay, they're just kids, they will get out of the street shortly.

  • So you stayed in the street?

  • Yes, we stayed in the street.

  • We continued to walk and have our conversation, but almost a split second we heard the tires screech, and the officer, he pulled back in the truck very fast to the point at an angle if we didn't hear his tires screech, the back of his cruiser would have struck one of us, not both of us, it would have struck both of us or one of us because of the way he angled in reverse.

    He never drove and turned around, he reversed real fast. Why he reversed so fast on us and the angle that he did in the manner, now we are almost not inches away from his front door, like we was right in his face now. He never got out of the car, he just pulled right back on the side of us, but it is almost at an angle.

  • When he pulled up we are face-to-face. Me and Big Mike are shoulder to shoulder now and the officer is facing us.

  • So you both are facing this driver's side door?

  • Driver's side door.

  • Where are you in proximity to Big Mike?

  • I'm on Big Mike's right-hand side. I'm standing right on the side.

  • So you are at the front or the rear of the car?

  • I'm still in the beginning of the car, I never really walked and got far to the back. I was like in the middle of the front door and the rear door, so I'm like right here in the middle. And it is more Big Mike because he's larger than me, it is more him in the window, but mostly my face, I'm short and like the top part of me.

  • Okay. And the car is facing west?

  • Towards West Florissant?

  • Yes, but it is not straight facing, I'm standing counter facing.

  • Okay, all right. All right, go ahead, and so you all are at the door and then what?

  • The officer pulled back. What did you say? Very loud, angry.

  • Who did he appear to be talking to?

  • At the time I believe he was talking to both of us. Like I said, Big Mike never said anything when the officer pulled up on us. So at the time I believe he was talking to both of us when he said, what did you say?

    And Big Mike, in an instant, Big Mike was finished saying something, his door was thrust open, very complex, he thrust his door open real hard. We was so close to the door that it hit mostly Big Mike, but it hit me on my left side and it closed back on him, like real fast. Just the same speed, boom, boom, that fast.

    And at that time he never attempted to open the door again like to try to get back out, but his arm came out the window and that's the first initial contact that they had. The officer grabbed, he grabbed ahold of Big Mike's shirt around the neck area.

  • So did he grab his neck or his shirt around the neck area?

  • It was more of both because he had a real good grip on him.

  • Was there any warning, did he just stuck his hand out and grab, does he say something, did he say anything?

  • No, ma'am, at this time when the door had closed back on him, he didn't say anything. His arm almost in an instant came out the window, his left arm, I remember it was his left arm, came out the window and touched Big Mike around his neck area and his throat. I watched his hands, you know, they really tightened up, so yeah, he had a good grip on it, that what's I saw first.

  • Were you still right behind Big Mike when this occurred?

  • At this time I'm not behind him any more, we're side to side so I can see everything that is going on. I'm still in the windowed, I'm still right here standing in the same spot, I never moved.

    And at that time Big Mike, he still has the Cigarillos in both of his hands, divided evenly, he never put them down in his pocket or anything like that.

    Now, from the beginning of the grab, it is a tug of war. Big Mike places his hands openly, one hand on top of the cruiser and the other hand more right up under the window, the side mirror. He's trying to pull off the officer's grip.

  • How is he doing that with the Cigarillos in his hand?

  • He placed the Cigarillos on the car and his hands are on the car. He never dropped a single pack. He still has them in his hand not dropping them, but he's pulling away, but he still grab on. So he never could really get a good grip on the car, but he's really trying to pull away.

  • At this time the officer, I'm not hearing what the officer is saying, I'm not hearing what Big Mike is saying, so now I'm not in shock, but that's the beginning of my shock level. That's where I'm like, this doesn't happen every day, something is out of order here.

    They are talking to each other, they are yelling and cussing. And neither one of them can calm down, they both have angry faces on while they are talking.

    They both were very upset and they couldn't calm do. There wasn't any wrestling or anything like that, punches were thrown. It was more a tug of war and it was very intense, very intense.

  • Okay. And so please tell us what happened?

  • While the officer is grabbing ahold of Big Mike, he kind loses grip around his neck, that's how I knew he had a good grip. He never fully let Big Mike go, now he has a good grasp on his shirt. So now Big Mike's able to turn different angles while he is trying to pull away.

    And at a point he turned, now we are face-to-face, and he put his hands like, grab these, Bro. And in shock, I'm so not unconsciously, my hands open to where he could put the rillos in my hand, but I'm still standing in the same spot. I never said anything any more, I'm just standing in shock. I'm this close, I'm standing right here.

    I almost feel like someone needs to come out here and say something to either one of them to calm somebody down.

    At the time I couldn't open my mouth, I couldn't speak. I wanted to say could someone calm down. I could not speak at that time and the Cigarillos were placed in my hand.

    At that time he turned back around, facing the officer now, and now he can get a good grip on the car.

    So now as he is pulling away, it is with more power, with more force. The officer is trying to pull him inside the vehicle through the window, like he's pulling him, but he's pulling away. The officer never attempted to open his door again after the first initially opening his door and close back on him.

    Now he's trying to pull him, he's pulling away.

  • Was he pulling him with both his hands?

  • The officer is only using the left hand?

  • The officer is only using his left arm and trying to pull Big Mike in and I could tell Big Mike was, he was getting the best of the officer because here was in a better position to pull away. He was outstanding and he was pulling off of something.

    The officer was using one hand, although he had a nice size, I really couldn't get the full body, but from his arm and when I seen his arm, he had nice size so where he was kind of strong, he looked strong enough to pull, but not strong enough to fully pull hum all the way in the car.

  • Was the car moving at all?

  • No, at this time it was parked, it was still there in the same spot he pulled up in, same angle he was in.

    And by this time there was cars behind and they could not get through because of how the officer had his vehicle or the cars couldn't get through the other way either east or west. So now we're just like three cars parked more towards the same direction the officer was going.

  • That would be west on Canfield Drive?

  • On Canfield Drive. Now, in the midst of the tug of war, I never see Big Mike actually have his body inside the vehicle, like the officer never fully got him inside so much as he has torso or top area coming toward the window.

  • Did you ever see Big Mike's hands inside the car?

  • No, ma'am, I never, I'm still standing there, more shocked than ever because I see it is escalating, I can see and hear the cuss words, I can see the frowns on their faces getting more intense.

  • Is there a question?

    I do have a question.

  • It is okay with me.

    Do you want to wait?

  • You can go ahead and ask a question.

    You said you were on his right?

  • You were both very close to the door?

  • You said he had his hands on the police car?

  • And he handed you the Cigarillos in your hand?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • Did he and you both have in one hand?

  • Correct, yes, no. He handed both of them in my hands he had, my hands were free, so he handed them to me at the same time.

  • Reason I ask this, I'm not judging, the reason I ask you is because that in the film we saw, he only had the Cigarillos in one hand.

  • Yes, when he initially grabbed out of the store, he had a lot of them in one hand when he grabbed them in the store. Once he got outside the store, that's when he divided them kind of and had both of his hands.

  • He's 6'3" or 6'4?

  • You're not six feet?

  • No, not at all.

  • So how do you know he is so much taller than the car than you, you say you saw both of his hands, how did you see his left hand?

  • The officer or Big Mike's?

  • He's so big, he's up against the car.

  • How could you be sure?

  • He was never like, I see what you're saying, he was never that close to the car, like I said, because of the position that he had on the officer standing outside. He was more overpowering the officer and the officer couldn't get him to close to the car. So as he is pulling away, I can see his hand on front of the car, not both of his hands were on top. One hand was on top, the other hand was kind of by the side mirror on the officer's cruiser. So I can see his hands as he's pulling away, but then the officer, you know, there's a tug of war. He pulled him and then he pulled away.

  • That begs another question. You said he was getting the best of the officer. And when Sheila asked you if the car was moving, not was it mobile, but was moving, like was it so much force that it was rocking or something?

  • I mean, the truck, yes, it was moving.

  • Because you didn't say you could tell that Big Mike was getting the best of the officer?

  • If he is 300 pounds and 6'3", there has to be movement of the car?

  • Yeah, because of the distance, or whatever, and he was standing, the car was moving, thank you for clearing that up.

  • I'm glad she cleared that up.

  • It wasn't moving, but it was shaking and moving, thank you.

  • You said initially that generally your process is to get up in the morning, check with your girlfriend and your baby to see if they want anything to eat on that date, your intent was to go get the Cigarillos from somebody in the apartment complex?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • Okay. And then was your intent to get something, you said something to eat for your girlfriend; is that correct as well?

  • Correct, yes, ma'am.

  • Naturally you didn't get to the friend's apartment for the Cigarillos, you were kind of diverted you said to the Ferguson Market; is that correct?

  • Yes, ma'am, that's correct.

  • At which time that's where the alleged theft had occurred?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • Of the Cigarillos. You came out, you're coming back to the apartment complex; is that correct?

  • Correct, yes, ma'am.

  • Where did you, if I understand correctly, there's a McDonald's in this area, is that also correct.

  • Yes, ma'am, right next door to the store.

  • At any point did you stop at the McDonald's to get breakfast for your girlfriend or your baby at that time.

  • No, ma'am. At that time I was more concerned with getting home, getting away from that whole incident because of what had just occurred in the store, now I'm more wanting to just get back to my daughter and my girl because I know the seriousness of what just occurred.

  • Uh-huh, okay. And you said that you had lived there approximately about eight months you said, right?

  • Eight months.

  • Although you only met Mike, I think you said about three months before this incident occurred; is that correct?

  • One or two months.

  • One or two months.

  • You knew other people that lived in the complex; is that correct?

  • As neighbors, I only knew one other person that visited the complex as a childhood friend. I knew him as a childhood friend that one person, everybody else that I met, I met them as neighbors, I never stayed in Ferguson before.

  • Okay. Now while you were there, I'm of the impression, I don't want to speculate, you had no other contact, had no other contact directly with Ferguson Police Department for any reason, any tickets or any altercations or anything of that nature?

  • Yes, ma'am, I never had any.

  • While you are in the apartment complex, I mean, I'm quite sure sometimes you hear through the grapevine well, yeah, this guy got stopped or whatever or the police is like that, did you hear any conversations to that effect from any residence in the apartment complex?

  • Yes, ma'am, all the time. Every day I hear different stories about people's different encounters with Ferguson Police. Be very mindful of the police around. Whenever you're coming outside the door, people are always giving you a warning, they are up the street now, they are down the street or something in that manner basically keeping you aware of Ferguson Police.

  • Okay, all right. With you being the older person, I think I heard in one of the DVDs that we saw or either in the transcript of that, you were basically kind of being a mentor to Mike; is that correct?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • You saw that as an unofficial mentor?

  • That's correct. It wasn't just like that with Big Mike, it was other kids his age that would see me and they see how I look and they see me walking up and down the street. I have a dog, so me and my dog, I walk my dog a lot. I just live a peaceful lifestyle and they see that and they see me with my tattoos and my dreadlocks asking questions every day. They see me how did you, what happened, how did you get your job or anything like that. So it is on a, it wasn't random that a person his age would come to me asking me how and the ways to get to work, to be the life to where you be comfortable a little. It was just me and him didn't talk on a daily basis, I didn't see him on a daily basis.

  • Okay. And with having that kind of relationship, when this incident occurred at Ferguson Market, did you have any opportunity at any time before this happened to kind of inform Mike what you had heard about the condition or the relationship between the community, the African-American community or community in that area and the Ferguson Police Department?

  • No, ma'am, to my knowledge, Big Mike was living in Ferguson a lot longer than I was. Like I said, his grandmother stayed in Northwinds, they still in Ferguson. He knew a lot of people that stayed in Ferguson. He was very popular, you know, with the kids, or people in the area. I was just the new resident, first time owner, year lease holder, I really didn't know people around or that much about Ferguson to give him knowledge about Ferguson and he stayed there a lot longer.

  • Okay. So, I mean, did he have the opportunity to let you know about the Ferguson Police Department if he's been there longer?

  • Yes, but not, he never directly told me like yeah, man, Ferguson, they really be on us like that, he never really said anything like that towards me or never really brought up incidents where he had encountered with the Ferguson Police. My other neighbors that stayed around who lived or who owned their apartment or drive up and down the street every day, those are the ones getting stopped and they had their complaints, but he really didn't talk about Ferguson Police.

  • When the officer, Officer Wilson, Darren Wilson, when he first accosted you and Mike Brown in the street as you are walking back to your, I guess, wherever you intended on going, hadn't been decided yet, going to go to his place or go to your place or not, but when he, I believe you guys are walking east then; is that correct, on Canfield and he is traveling west on Canfield, the officer in his vehicle, is that correct?

  • If west is going towards West Florissant, east towards Northwinds, yes, that's correct. I'm sorry, I don't know.

  • Okay. When he stops you and he makes this comment to you, okay, and then you say that you tell him that you are about a minute from where you are going, you need to get to, okay, can you write that down for me in relative about approximately how many feet, did you have a block to go, did you have like 20 feet to go, 10 feet to go or what?

  • Yeah, like I said, we was just at the leasing office where my building is and his building is away from the leasing office is not a block away, probably 20, 30 feet away.

  • So about 20 or 30 feet?

  • We can look at the map, did you have another question?

    Yeah, I had another question. Was there any particular reason when the police officer gives you an order that you and Mike did not obey that order to get out of the street at that time and onto the sidewalk?

  • The reason, I mean, at the time in my head and the response that I give back to the officer, I didn't feel like I was rude. I knew by law that we really wasn't committing a crime at the time because there was no traffic flow and no one was, you know, we wasn't holding up traffic or anything like that because cars were still able to pass us. It was more so, it was more so like a father figure talking to a son and that's where, you know, we are just walking down the street. But no one said anything like that, but this is what I'm thinking in my mind, we are just walking down the street, we are not causing anybody any harm. He didn't initially pull up on us and stop us because of the store incident, which I thought when I saw him I thought he's coming to get us for the store, but once he told us just get on the sidewalk, in my mind I'm like well, I guess he didn't call the police. So at that time if the officer didn't know and I feel that he didn't know about the store because Big Mike still did have the Cigarillos in his hands in plain sight when the officer pulled up on us. He was just saying get on the sidewalk. Once I responded to him telling him we was a minute away from the destination, I felt like that we were not committing a crime, we were having our conversation, we was just walking. At that time the officer really didn't look like, you know, he was mad or he was telling us that we was committing a crime, he was just saying get on the sidewalk. We was basically okay, we will be out of the street in a minute.

  • Did you, I mean, did the thought ever come to your mind at that point in time that maybe he was doing it for public safety to avoid you being struck by a vehicle in the street or anything of that nature, maybe for your own safety?

  • At the time, no, I was not thinking that, but I could see how that would come into effect. At the time I was not thinking we was in harm's way or anything like that. Like I said, cars had passed us before the police got on the side of us, no one made, you know, any remarks saying, hey, you guys are in our way or blowing their horn or anything like that. So at the time I didn't feel like we were in harms way.

  • Earlier you spoke about the construction worker, you did not speak to the construction worker, you did not talk to them?

  • No, I didn't say anything so much as just stand there. I honestly didn't believe the construction worker would give a conversation because they were working at the time.

  • I was just standing there.

  • Could you hear them talking?

  • Not so much as, hey, when the construction worker spoke back, I kind of bowed out of their conversation. I didn't hear what they were saying to one another.

  • You didn't hear him talking about getting high and something?

  • At first I heard because that's what I was initially going to do. So I heard him bring up smoking or anything like that, but I couldn't get detailed on what exactly was said between him and the construction worker. I couldn't really factor in exactly what they were both saying.

  • Where was the construction worker on your way back, they were gone?

  • We did not get there.

  • You didn't get that far?

  • We didn't get that far.

  • You mentioned, you said it was almost, you didn't know if you were being pun ked because it was almost like he had done it before. Do you think it is possible he could have done it before, do you think it is possible? I mean, he is a big guy, he's a big guy.

  • Yeah, he's a big guy. I really can't say if it is possible that he would do it at another store or anything like that. All I can say is how I felt at that time when I did see that because I never seen it before like that or the store clerk react that way or that slow. Yes, it was like he knew the people like he had been in that store before, like he knew them, that store before and he knew things like that in that store.

  • It was not like he had stolen before or he was just familiar?

  • Familiar with the store to where he could just pick up things and just pay for however he pleases.

  • I'm going to kind of ask you the same thing that he asked you. You said you didn't feel like you were doing anything wrong, but in the manner that the police spoke to you --

  • Speak up a little bit for us.

    In the manner that he said get the fuck in, on the sidewalk.

  • Why were you not even on the sidewalk? It was not safe, is there a reason why you didn't take advantage of the sidewalk, why you didn't do that?

  • It wasn't a reason that I wasn't on the sidewalk, it was more just a decision that we made. When we get down there or anything like that, but the initial, the reason we didn't follow the complaint, like I said, Big Mike at this time never said anything.

  • It was more like a chastisement than you are breaking law or you are committing a crime or you might bring harm to yourself. If those were represented in the way he came off to us when he first said it, then maybe, okay, you know what, we'll get on the sidewalk. Because of the way he said it and the manner that he said it, it was more like we're not your kids, we're not doing anything legally wrong, just walking down the street even though it could be considered a crime jaywalking, but we are just walking in the street, we are not committing any crime or bringing harm to anyone.

  • My last question right now. When the police, you said that the police passed you?

  • Yes, after that.

  • And you're walking back?

  • You talking about after the store?

  • Are police going both ways?

  • No, the police came.

  • From the area of the store?

  • Not the area from the store, from deeper in Ferguson, so they was coming towards the store.

  • When I first saw the official squad truck, it was a truck, not a car. Like I said, they didn't even go to the store, they went to McDonald's, they was on the parking lot. They turned around coming off the parking lot, but didn't really come off the parking lot or didn't confront us.

  • The third police car.

  • Darren Wilson.

  • Darren Wilson is the one that said get the F on the sidewalk?

  • On the sidewalk.

  • You said I'm not doing anything, I'm going home, and that's when he backed up.

  • And you couldn't go anywhere

  • Yeah, at that point when he backed up on us, I stopped.

  • Because I felt that he had something else to say and I didn't want to make myself look guilty by running away or being startled and, you know, making a quick reaction, so I just stood there and complied with the officer even though he never said freeze or hold when he pulled back. I felt I will just stand still and see what he asked. (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 15

  • marked for identification.)

  • (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 15 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Whirley) So at no time when the officer pulled back, we have brought a map that's marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 15 that would hopefully help you kind of illustrate where you guys were, does that look familiar?

  • Okay, good. But my question before we get started is when the officer pulled back, he never said, he never questioned you about that store incident?

  • He never gave you any other directions then get out of the street or get on the sidewalk?

  • After he initially said get on the sidewalk, he never even brought the sidewalk situation back up. He never brought the store up after he gave his first statement about getting on the sidewalk and I told him exactly how I said we are a minute away from our destination. We will be out of the street shortly. After he pulled back, there was no more sidewalk talk, it was nothing, it was just anger.

  • And then the altercation ensued?

  • Began from there.

  • All right. I'm not sure how sturdy this tripod is, hopefully it will get us through. Can everyone see this map? You had a question?

  • couple questions. I want to keep it before we move on. When you went into the market, you talked about payment, did you have money in your hands? I know you didn't have any pockets, I'm trying to figure out where you had your money?

  • I had my money in my shoe at the time, yes, I had my money in my shoe.

  • When you left the store, I thought it was strange you guys stuck together. You didn't seem concerned, then kind of something bad was there, then you kind of stuck with Mike, kind of walk down the street, see the cops coming knowing they might be coming for me, I would expect probably more hide behind the bush, get back in place. What is the reason you walked down the street waiting for the cops to come get you?

  • Like I said, that was in my mind at the time, we're not running, there is nothing really to hide behind on West Florissant. We could have run behind the stores, we still had to get out in the open eventually to get down Canfield. In the mind walking from Ferguson Market to Canfield, we're never making it to Canfield. We're never making it to Canfield how far this store is, to how many police cars we see on a day, you know, that's just in the area, we'll never make it to Canfield.

  • You know, just seems strange to be in the middle of the street, you think on the sidewalk to kind of avoid being noticed.

  • In my mind, I'm still trying to fathom everything that is going on and why he didn't put the Cigarillos in his pocket. He still had them in his hand the whole time leaving out the store, all the way walking down Canfield Drive.

  • When the police officer backed up at you, obviously, very aggressive. You think he intended to hit you, you think it was a miscalculation on the part of his judgment what he thinks, I shouldn't ask it that way, but I'm just trying to, I mean, that's pretty aggressive if you felt like you had to literally get out of the way to avoid him hitting you, if you felt that way?

  • Yes, correct. It was very aggressive and fast the way he pulled back, but because we heard the tires, we was able to step back almost a second before the truck, the back of the rear of it kind of hit us, so it didn't hit us, but the way his car was angled, it very well could have hit both of us.

  • Just a quick follow-up question. Is it typical for you to walk down the middle of the street when you went to the market or walk around the neighborhood.

  • No, sir. I walked in the middle of the street before, but it is not like I just wake up in the morning, hey, we are going to walk in the middle of the street. It is something you do, you are crossing the street and try to stay a little longer or you just walking down the sidewalk. It wasn't planned to walk in the street.

  • Typically you would be on the sidewalk?

  • In my mind an act of defiance going down the middle of the street expecting cars to go around you and, you know, pay attention to you. If I see somebody in the middle of the street I'd be concerned about hitting them and really slowing down and moving over.

  • Yeah, that's correct.

  • I would interpret that they are being defiant to show strength or something.

  • Correct, walking down the middle of the street could, you know, cause harm if someone had to, but like I said, walking down the middle of the street we saw two, three, maybe even four cars pass us and no one blew their horn, no one even stopped or slowed down. They kept the same speed and just rolled right passed us.

  • Eventually there might have been a driver that caused a confrontation?

  • If, but it didn't come at all, we didn't get anyone telling us to get out of the street, you are in our way, anything like that, no comments like that.

  • We just have, as I mentioned, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 15 as an aid to help the jurors. I'm going to try to move it where everyone can see it. Can you guys see it from here?

  • You want me to stand up?

  • That would be great, Dorian, thank you. I'm going to give you this pen.

  • Well, as you all can see Number 12, this is my building right here Like I said, we have a driveway, you see into the driveway, Canfield Drive, you can see directly over. This is the building

  • Excuse me, this says Caddiefield Drive.

  • Caddiefield, this is Canfield and through the apartments like the driveway, they have Caddiefield.

  • You lived in Caddiefield.

  • Yes, I lived on

    Like I said, you can see directly across coming out of my building, this building that he was standing with a friend, Building Number Big Mike. They were standing on the third floor also.

    That morning when I came out, I could see him, Big Mike right about right here helping someone put kids in the car.

    The guy who I was going to --

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Let me stop you a minute. When you indicate where Big Mike is, could you put BM or MB, either one, so we can keep track of who is who. This is him too, right?

  • This is where he was living.

  • This is you down here?

  • This is, right. I will put DJ for me.

  • I don't know if you can see it. And this is Big Mike. Now initially when I first met him he was staying a little further back in Northwinds. At the time of the incident he was staying here at the time, something was going on with his grandmother, he had to move out, and he was staying with a friend.

    When I came out that morning, he was down in the parking lot area. Now the guy I was going to go to for the Cigarillos, stayed in this building right here Number Like I said, regardless whether I saw him or not, I was passing this building, that's the way I walk through to go to the guy.

    When I saw him, we had our words, we're going to match, now we are walking up.

    Now this is where we are going towards the store, going up Canfield. Now back to the part where the officer pulled up on us.

    One is the leasing office, the first building. We were pretty much, we didn't get on into the street until we were like right before the leasing office, so it had to be right here where we initially just crossed over into the street.

    Now, when the street, the officer doesn't pull up on us until about right here is where the police officer first really pulled up on the side of us.

    After he initially said get on the sidewalk, we got to about, I say we wasn't really that far away from him, we got to about right here.

  • When he said get on the sidewalk, you are still, you said I don't have, I'm almost at my destination, you keep walking east?

  • Yes, we were still walking, but eventually I figure we were going to get out of the street.

  • So you were right there at Copper Creek Road and he said get the F on the sidewalk?

  • You said not but a minute, you kept walking, you didn't hesitate, you didn't even do anything except we are almost home?

  • Yes, that is what I told the officer. We are a minute away from our destination, I'll be out of the street shortly. At this time Big Mike said nothing, no words were out of his mouth towards the officer.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Let me stop you for a minute. Your destination would be like, show us where you were when you told the officer you are almost at your destination, this goes to one of the grand juror questions.

  • This leasing office where we are at. This is where the officer stopped us. He asked us to get on the sidewalk, I told him we were going to our destination. This is where I was headed, this is where Big Mike's house was and, you know, it is not very close, but it is not very far. You can actually see both our buildings from standing right there, there is no real big trees or anything, they were actually cutting trees down in the neighborhood.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) You don't know the distance between that?

  • I don't know the distance, you can see both the buildings from where we are standing from the leasing office.

  • Now, once he pulled back on us. Let me see, you know what, I'm sorry, yeah, when he pulled back on us.

  • Is there something wrong?

  • Yeah, I'm sorry, like I said, because of that day and what was going on, I really couldn't time or distance time and distance really is a blur to me, so much actually happened.

  • Are we right with the location as far as when, where he stopped you?

  • Where he stops us, yes. I really can't tell how far we got down like the distance he had to drive in reverse, but I know he had to drive in reverse.

    The front of his car never met us, the back of his car met us first when he came back. I'm describing from the distance because where he was shot was down here, Big Mike was shot down here in this area.

  • That's where his body fell?

  • That where his body was. One of the cars that I had to duck behind for cover, they were along this right here. (indicating)

  • Put car or something to let us know.

  • Why don't you make, before when you have done this, yeah, make a rectangle.

  • Like one car. It had to be a second car and third car would be like right behind.

  • And Dorian, all three of those cars were going towards West Florissant?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • They were on the right side of the street?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

    Now, like I said, I don't know how far we got along, but because of how the officer pulled reverse on us, now his cruiser was more like on both sides. I'll put another rectangle, but his rear was more on the side where he was coming from and kind of like, the beginning of his front was on the other side. Either way cars couldn't come this way or go the other way. They were stuck, and at that moment that's when these three cars were standing right there. And like I said, me and Big Mike, we are standing on this side of the police cruiser car.

    Now, when he pulls up on us and he said, what did you say? I could tell that he's mad then, that's when he tried to open his door. Like I said, the way I was standing on the side of Big Mike when he opened his door, we was so close to his door that it hit us, but more so it hit Big Mike, only like a little portion of me, maybe the end of the door, it didn't really hurt me or anything like that, but it struck us and it closed back on the officer.

    At that time is when his arm came out the window and he grabbed onto Big Mike.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Okay.

  • Any other questions or should I continue?

  • Where did you say that the door hit you?

  • The door hit me on my left side, left arm, not my whole body because Big Mike is so big he takes more of the door than me, but just a piece of my arm and a piece of my body.

  • Did you have any visible injuries to that area?

  • No, it hit more Big Mike than me, I didn't have any bruises but I felt the door hit me.

  • Require any medical attention?

  • Dorian, can I ask you some questions? I know you have, at this point you've known Big Mike a couple months, maybe three months max?

  • I know you've said that he was a great guy, you liked everything about him, right?

  • You considered yourself, you know, kind of a mentor?

  • You are older, you came from a violent background, not you violent, but lived in a violent area?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • So, you know, when you go to the store and you see him just take these Cigarillos and you said he just said I'm going to take these Cigarillos, right?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • That's really brash, wouldn't you agree?

  • That's like indignant. And then when the clerk tries to stop him, he pushes the clerk aside?

  • You are surprised by that. And I think, you know, no one is saying that you had anything to do with planning that or even were aware it was going to happen, but just that behavior, that's pretty brash, wouldn't you say?

  • And then so when you are walking back and now you heard the clerk say I'm going to call the police, let me ask you this, after he pushes the clerk aside, and I know you are watching this and if you want to watch the video because we couldn't get it to work in the other room, we can play it again for you. We can play it for you, but doesn't Big Mike come back at the clerk at some point?

  • He does, but that's almost like because the store clerk made a move like he was going towards, like I said, the first time before the store clerk actually tried to grab for Big Mike because the first initial grab the store clerk just grabbed the door and Big Mike just pushed the door.

    Now, the store clerk made another step like he was trying to grab for Big Mike and that's when it was like a real --

  • Fast push away, and I don't know if the store clerk was going to walk back on or anything, but that was like a stare down, like he kind of like stared at him.

  • And that was threatening, he was threatening, don't you think, he is 6 foot 5 inches tall?

  • He was a small man. He was almost smaller than me, shorter than me, you are right.

  • That would be extremely intimidating, don't you think?

  • I could see where it made the store clerk kind of eased off.

  • You know what, I will just leave this at the hands of the police.

  • At this point, I mean, this is not behavior you are used to seeing from him, correct?

  • No, ma'am, I wasn't aware of it.

  • But it is clearly very much macho, I'm going to take these Cigarillos, I know he's not saying that, but that was kind of his demeanor, like what are you going to do, stop me? I'm taking them, right?

  • Correct, yes, ma'am.

  • Okay. So then you are walking down the street, I know you said you are kind of freaked out at this point?

  • And you see cop cars coming by oh, my God, you know, but Big Mike doesn't really care, does he?

  • Not so much care because when he saw, he looked at my face. I'm just walking like oh, my goodness. When I see the squad car I kind of follow it, I want to see are they going to the store or what is going on. And once he sees that on my face, he is like just walk normal, so we are just walking.

  • But he doesn't even put the Cigarillos in his pocket?

  • Like I said --

  • He has them out there like.

  • Just walking, yes, ma'am.

  • Whatever, you know. He owns the street right there, right, kind of?

  • I don't want to say he thought he owned the street, he was very bold with how

  • Bold, that's a good way to put it. So then, you know, as you walk back and you say you are walking in the middle of street.

  • I know, you know, it is Saturday, noon-ish, there is people out, but not like rush hour or anything, but, you know, cars are going back and forth, cars are going, passing you, but they don't have any trouble getting past you.

  • No, ma'am, none whatsoever.

  • But then the officer stops and says get the fuck on the sidewalk.

  • And you said hey, we are just going to my place, we are going to be there in just a minute and you guys kind of keep walking and he then drives past you, correct?

  • That was, in my mind, that is what I was thinking, yes, ma'am, I heard his car pull off.

  • Okay. And then you hear screeching tires and then do you look back to see him reversing towards you?

  • You hear him say what?

  • What did you just say? He thought someone had said something else.

  • Is it possible that Big Mike, who is behind you now, could have said something to the officer as the officer pulled away, could have said something ignorant to him?

  • No way, no, ma'am. He was standing behind me, he was so close if he would have said something, I would have heard. He didn't say anything, like I said at that time only I spoke to the officer.

    Now, I could kind of see where he may have been looking at the officer, kind of staring him in his eyes, I'm talking he never said anything, probably eye-to-eye contact with the officer. I don't know if that, like he did the store clerk, eye-to-eye with the store clerk where he thought

  • I want to interrupt you. Did you see that or you just speculating?

  • I am speculating right now.

  • We want you to tell us what you know, what you saw.

  • I was looking at the officer because I was talking to the officer. I wasn't directly looking into his eyes, so much looking at his face and telling him what was going on, but at no point in time I heard Big Mike say anything at all, he never said anything.

  • But the officer said, what did you say? That kind of sounds like he heard something.

  • Or he may have got a look that may have looked like he said something. That's why I speculate that he may have been looking at the officer, but, you know, the way the officer pulled back on us, yes, I feel like, all right, I'm lost. I was the one that just told you, I didn't say anything else.

  • No out of order, no cuss words or anything like that.

  • You didn't hear Mike say anything?

  • Is it possible, if he said it like under his breath as he turned his head, might be that you didn't hear it?

  • I didn't hear him mumble anything.

  • Here is a question.

    If the police had already passed you guys up as you are walking towards home, he is going back towards West Florissant, how could he have heard you because he had to come back to you and say what did you say?

  • Exactly, so I felt that was my random thinking, no one said anything, but I didn't say that to the officer because I didn't know what he was feeling at the time, the way he pulled a reverse on us, I was let me stand fast and see what he is going to say. That's why I basically was standing side to side talking to him.

  • Okay, this is So now you say you don't even think the police heard you say we are almost home?

  • No, he definitely heard me say that. Again, I was looking at his face while I was talking and telling him.

  • Again, I'm not judging you, but somebody just stole something?

  • On the video that we watched, he grabbed ahold of the man?

  • He said something to him and he lunged at him, okay, you are walking down the street?

  • The police tell you to get the fuck on the sidewalk?

  • And you say I'm almost home, you are thinking to yourself we are not doing anything wrong, didn't you? Somebody did just do something wrong, so that still begs the question why you did not listen to the police?

  • Yeah, like I said before, at the time we was walking from the store, I saw with my two eyes police squad cars pass us by, neither one of those cars stopped us or said hey, did you just come out of that store or anything like that.

    So in my mind at the time they were unaware or the store clerk never made the call because before we saw Darren Wilson, we saw two more police cars. He was the third police car we saw and he was the first one that stopped us.

  • So you guys thought, or at least you thought you were in the clear that this officer wasn't talking to you about the Cigarillos.

  • Not so much me in the clear because I know I didn't commit a crime. I was so much thinking maybe he didn't call the police, that's all I was thinking.

  • You were worried, you already said --

  • I was worried because of, I know that, you know, he's not a person like that and I'm worried because I don't think, well, I don't know what is in his mind. I can't think what he's thinking at the time, but I know, you know, I've been locked up before, not for anything like that, jail is not for nobody. Nobody should ever want to go to jail. So I knew that's where he was headed, so that is where my worry and fear is coming from.

  • You say when he came back, he never mentioned anything about the Cigarillos or the store?

  • Darren Wilson the police officer?

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Yes, the police officer.

  • He never stopped stop us and said hey, freeze, stop right there, let me get out of my car anything like that. I've been stopped by police before, I know there is a way that they stop or pull up on people, suspects for committing crimes. So exactly what I said, didn't feel like he was stopping us or telling us anything like we were committing a crime so much as chastising from a father to a son, like you are doing some wrong. Hey, put that down or don't touch that, it came off like that, that's how he said it.

  • You did say that you have money in your tennis shoes?

  • Why don't you pay for the Cigarillos?

  • At the time I thought he was going to buy them because when we was in the store, I never confronted the store clerk, I never even walked up to the register, I just stood back because I thought that he was buying the Cigarillos. When I saw that he wasn't, I didn't need that many Cigarillos, that's why I just, you know, set it back. And because of what was going on at the time, I don't even want to be, you know, I'm really trying to get out of the store now. I don't like what is going on, so I'm leaving so much as hey, I'll pay for them, it is all right. I'm just trying to leave now.

  • When you saw your friend do something that is wrong and you have the money, why don't you pay?

  • Or at least offer to pay?

  • I'm sorry, I didn't have enough money to purchase all of them.

  • At least some of them, what have you?

  • I didn't have enough to purchase all the Cigarillos that he was grabbing. And at the time, like I said, we never had a conversation about what he was going to do in the store or anything like that. We was just going to get some Cigarillos.

  • At the time you didn't even pay for one Cigarillo?

  • At that time I was basically, hey, you know what, I'm not a part of this, I didn't know, although I didn't say it, I was basically just trying to get out of the store like all of the rest, there was another person in there, he was just trying to get out of the store, so I'm getting

  • You are with him and he is doing that, you are an accomplice?

  • You can't hear him?

  • I'm sorry, I'll speak up. The store clerk actually does notice me, like I said, it was a male store clerk and his daughter was there. She's looking directly at me, I'm looking at her face-to-face and she sees me actually put the box of Cigarillos back and I step back. Because they are kind of in front of the door so I really can't get through, like walking straight. So I have to kind of side step them. The store clerk, as he walked past me, he never tried to grab me, hey, you with him, he never did anything like that. So I felt like, you know what, he saw me put those back, he saw that my intentions were not to steal from him, so that's why I believe he didn't never try to grab me or hold me back or from leaving or anything like that.

  • When the police officer backed up and almost ran over you, let's say, and you guys were facing his window, when he opened his door, what is your sense of what he was trying to do when he was opening your door, do you think he was intentionally trying to hit you with the door or was he potentially trying to get out of the car very quickly?

  • That I can't speculate on. Again, I cannot speculate what is in someone's mind or what their agenda is going to be, but the force that he used and the power behind it, I believe it was unnecessary. He could of, and the way he backed up, if he would have backed up straight back, he would have been able to open his door, step out of his car perfectly. But because of the angle where he reversed and how close we were and how fast he did it, it happened real fast. Everything happened continuously right back to back. It was really with a lot of force and power that wasn't needed.

  • Do you think, do you think it is possible that he didn't know how close you guys dies were to the car?

  • I don't think that it is possible not to see someone. You have a couple of mirrors attached to your car as you are backing up, I'm sure, I pray, I hope he was using his mirror and not intentionally trying to strike us. But like I said, I can't speculate what he was doing, I know that he was very forceful and powerful.

  • But Dorian, you said you guys had to kind of jump out of the way?

  • We definitely had to step back, not so much as a big leap to where, you know, oh. It was more of a step back real fast because of the rear end, you know, it wouldn't have, the whole back of the car wouldn't have hit us, it would have been like a corner of the side of the rear because of how he was turning his vehicle, it would have struck one of us, if it would have hit him, it would have fell into me, but if it would have hit me, I would have fell onto the ground.

  • It seem likely to pull up next to you, you had the first encounter, he continued down west, probably, potentially looks in the mirror, sees you have not adjusted your path.

  • He's aggravated because you aren't doing what he asked for, backs up, not only does he back up to stay straight, he backs up and puts his rear end across that center line, therefore, blocking your path. You can no longer walk down the center line any more, he is going to take that away. And possibly when he is asking you what did you say, I had a feeling he may be referring back to the first conversation we had and he is wondering, what did you say? Didn't you tell me you were going to get out of the street?

    Again, I'm assuming different things in there, but it may not have been a secondary conversation that he's referring to, what did you say when I drove away or when I was coming back, he very well could have been referring to the very first conversation, he's wondering why you are still in the street?

  • I can see where you are saying, he maybe didn't hear exactly what I was saying to him or something like that. I never said that it right away, officer, we get right on the sidewalk. So I could see why he would be like, they're not getting off the street and pulled back.

  • Even still, like I said, if he would have pulled back straight, the altercation would have happened a lot different, I'm sure he would have happened a lot different if he been able to get out of the car, full body, stand straight up, but because of how that little small incident reacted, it kind of turned the next level up a lot.

  • Okay. Anybody else? All right.

    Dorian, why don't you have a seat, we may go back to the map.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Let's get to the actual shooting.

  • We left off with you talking about the officer had his left hand out of the car and he is pulling Big Mike in or trying to, so now the Cigarillos have been handed off to you?

  • Go from there?

  • I'm sorry, could I stand up? This map is perfect and I just want to see very perfect, everything is here.

    So at the time, like I said --

  • You still have the pen in case you need to?

  • Big Mike and Darren Wilson, the officer, they are doing their tug of war. He passed me off the Cigarillos. Now he's back, at no point in time did I begin to move away, I stood in the same position, same spot. I'm still in the driver window of the officer the whole time they are doing their tug of war, so I can see both of them. I'm going back and forth looking at both of their faces.

    I'm hearing cuss words from both of them, but I don't really hear the officer saying, you know, stop or get down on the ground.

    I really like, I'm shocked, the shock level I'm going through right now is continuously building. So now it is more and more stuff, I'm trying to comprehend that it is not, it shouldn't be happening, that I know shouldn't be happening. They are pulling back and forth. At this time I heard the officer says, I'll shoot. This is the first he says, I'll shoot.

    At that time I was looking at Big Mike when he said I'll shoot. In my mind taser, I see people get tased before and it looks like it hurts a lot.

  • Let me stop you a minute. So the first time the officer says, I'll shoot, Big Mike's hands are free now?

  • He's given you the Cigarillos?

  • No shots have been fired yet?

  • Not at the moment, no.

  • Okay. So do you know where his hands are when the officer is saying, I'll shoot?

  • I can still see both Darren Wilson's hand and Big Mike's hands.

  • Tell us about it?

  • Big Mike's left hand was still on like right above the side mirror, right up under that, right up under the side mirror. His other arm now because of the tug of war pull, the officer's grip come up, from up on his neck, to the shirt collar, to the shoulder, to basically he never let go. Now he has Big Mike. Big Mike's left arm is on the car pulling away still, and he's trying to pull away because now he basically just has his arm.

  • So the officer has his right arm?

  • Yes, with the officer's left arm, he's out the window grabbing Big Mike's right arm.

  • Okay. So he has Big Mike's right arm, does he pull it inside the car?

  • I really, from the time of everything happening and once he said, I'll shoot, now my focus has switched and locked on the officer and say what he is saying he's going to shoot because in my mind I assume it is a taser. If it was going to be a taser, no matter who was in the wrong or who was in the right, if I would have saw that taser, I would have immediately told my friend Big Mike, look, just stop, stop moving, stop pulling away, just stop.

    But because I saw the gun and the barrel, I've been shot before. It is the worse pain I can ever imagine, it does not feel good, because I saw the barrel, I went into a deeper shock.

  • You didn't think everybody should just stop when you saw the gun?

  • I was praying, I was, I'm in such shock right now and firm, because when the officer pulled up and that's why I was trying to make clear people were, he's a witness, key witness. I was so victimized that people don't even understand.

    There was a witness standing on their balcony, a witness drive by in her car, me being right there in the moment, I felt victimized because I felt so afraid that I couldn't talk.

    I couldn't say what was on my mind because I'm so afraid of, I couldn't calm it down. I don't have the power to calm down the police officer and obviously Big Mike is bigger than me.

  • Let's just go back. I understand what you are saying about seeing the shooting like that, but when Big Mike's right hand or arm is being pulled into the car, I don't know if you said that or not, you said that the officer had his right hand with his, the officer's left hand had Big Mike's right arm?

  • Where is it, did you see it or not, where his right, where Big Mike's right hand was?

  • I didn't see Big Mike's right hand because the officer had it, but it was up, so it may have been times when the officer could have pulled his right, because his left hand never removed off the officer's car.

    So there could have been times when the officer pulled him, but like I said, because of the position how Big Mike has on the officer, officer never got out of the car, he is still sitting down. He has a better way of pulling with more force, so he is just pulling. I can see more of the officer's arm out the window than his arm in the window.

  • From your vantage point, you can tell if Big Mike's hand ever went inside the officer's car?

  • No, because at the point, I'm back and forth, but when, I'll shoot, my eyes locked on the officer.

  • So where was, where were the hands, I'm interested in the hands and the arms?

  • At that point when the officer said I'll shoot, now is like Big Mike, this hand is not on the car any more.

  • That's the left hand?

  • The left arm is not on the car any more, the officer still has the right arm, but he's not inside the car. And when I look up and see the officer, the officer has his gun pointed, his left arm grabbed, he has his gun pointed aimed at Big Mike.

    In my mind it was probably aimed at both of us, but I assumed he wasn't directly just trying to go for Big Mike. He had his gun pointed towards us. I'm still standing in the doorway and at the time he said I'll shoot. He was going to say it again, I'll shoot and almost, he didn't get to finish his sentence, the gun went off.

  • At the time that the gun went off, where were the hands of Big Mike?

  • The left arm was down at his side. He was standing straight up, I was standing right on the side of him. The right arm was still up in the air while the officer, but still pulling, but it is not like he got any, pulling off the car, he is still pulling the officer.

    At this time, like I said, I see more of the officer's arm outside the car than Big Mike's arm inside the car, so he has a better position to pull away from, the officer was sitting down.

  • Just so I understand with the officer's left hand, he's pulling Big Mike's right arm into the car and Mike's pulling away and the officer has his gun in his right hand?

  • And he says, I'll shoot?

  • While this pulling is going on?

  • Correct, yes, ma'am.

  • Okay. Go ahead, well, there is a question?

    Real quickly, When the gun went off as soon as he said I'll shoot, do you know if the gun was inside the car or outside the car.

  • The gun definitely was inside the car when he fired the shot. How me and Big Mike was standing, we were standing straight up, so we definitely was outside the vehicle. The bullet came outside the car and struck him. He was never inside the car and got struck, he was outside the car when the first shot went off. The officer was inside the car, so the gun was inside the car, but when he shot the gun, bullet traveled outside his car and struck Big Mike in the chest, or I seen blood coming from.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) You are not sure where the wound

  • It struck him, I definitely know that it hit him, I saw the blood with the first shot.

  • Are you absolutely certain, I know you talked about being in shock and that kind of thing, this is very important, this jury is trying to get this thing figured out.

    Are you absolutely certain that you did not see Big Mike's hands inside the officer's car in a struggle with the officer?

  • Now, his hand being inside the car, I won't speculate on, like I said, there was times where the officer had a good pull and his arm would get in there, but majority of the time the officer really didn't have that much power because of the position that they both had. I'm not saying that he was stronger than the officer, but because the officer was sitting down in his car and Big Mike was standing up and he had better, more strength in pulling from the officer.

  • Right, can you go ahead?

  • I never saw at no point in time Big Mike's hand touch the gun or anything like that because of the gun was already out drawn.

  • How about touching the officer?

  • Now, touching the officer, now touching the officer, maybe, because they're pulling each other, but as far as striking the officer, or physically striking the officer, no, I didn't see.

  • You didn't see him with a fist?

  • No, ma'am, he never had his fist clenched up like in a punching manner, so much as trying to grab stuff and push himself off of.

  • Could it have happened and you missed it?

  • Him striking the officer?

  • Right, some type of physical altercation with the officer inside the car?

  • Like I said, I was standing so close and directly in the doorway with him the whole time pulling away, he never swung his left arm at all or never put the left arm inside the window, anything like that. And because the officer had his right arm, I'm almost positive that he couldn't like hit the officer because the officer has his right arm.

  • Okay. You said you were sure he never touched the gun?

  • Yes, ma'am, correct.

  • Go ahead, questions?

    In here, what we heard earlier, you said that you could tell, you couldn't really see him, the officer, you said you couldn't tell what color hair he had, you couldn't see what kind of build he was, but because of his arm, you could tell that he was a certain, you could assume that he was a certain build. If you couldn't see the officer inside the car, is it possible that you couldn't have seen Big Mike's arm go into the car as well.

  • I was going to say on that, the way they ask that question, they was basically asking for a description on the officer. And I told them that because I was in a state of shock, I couldn't give them a full description of the officer because when you are in shock, I'm not at this time focused on the specific details on the officer so much as making sure that I'm not in the line of fire.

  • What's going on?

  • Yeah, I'm still standing right here, but I'm not like, he's got blue eyes, brown eyes, no. I step back, there is a gun pointed at you guys, that's how I'm acting like at this point.

  • How tall are you?

  • How tall I am? 5'6" or 5'7".

  • How much you weigh?

  • You were standing to the right of Mike?

  • Not in front, but on the right side.

  • On the side?

  • How big was Mike?

  • I really couldn't, I didn't know how big he was until I heard it.

  • Can I tell you?

  • Yes, please.

  • 285 pounds and 6'4". He's a big, big guy.

  • With a big tummy.

  • Yes, it wasn't so much his weight, he was like big in bulk. He wasn't like blabby fat.

  • I don't mean, big tummy, or could be muscle whatever. You are a pretty small guy, I am a small person too.

  • If I am close to her and she's fighting with them, and the other arm and I am here and I have the side of the car, the head rest on the seat, I don't know that I can see what happened with the hand whether he touched the gun or no. Describe the police or no. I don't see that you can have as much vision as you say. I don't think that you are lying, I think that you don't have as much of a good vision as you say.

  • It is difficult for me to understand that.

  • And that's what I'm trying to make you understand because of where I'm standing outside the vehicle and how close I am to Big Mike and everything that I saw, the officer never got Big Mike inside the window. You have to think about someone sitting down trying to pull in a 6'9", 285 pound person. You're not going to have that much ease with just, hey, get over here in this window. No, he's big, he's standing up, and the officer's gun is on his right side, I believe, because that's where he draw from with his right arm. In order for Big Mike to have touched the gun, it is almost like his whole top half of his body had to be inside the vehicle, and that never happened. His arm, yes, but like I said, the officer had it. It wasn't like his arm was in the window free, the officer has his left arm on his right arm, so if he made a grab and got that far over there, it wasn't because

  • So did you say he had the right arm, not the left?

  • Not the left, the left arm never went towards the window whatsoever.

  • Dorian, do you understand, I don't know, I'm not a physics person or anything, you know you kind of said to yourself that Mike Brown was, Big Mike was in an advantageous position and that he was standing on his feet outside the vehicle.

  • And the officer is seated in his vehicle?

  • Hard to figure out why he couldn't break free if the officer has him just with his left hand?

  • First of all, by the neck?

  • And then you said by his shirt?

  • You couldn't just, do you understand it might be difficult to understand why he couldn't just, just the sheer weight of him if he had fallen over his shirt would have ripped.

  • I understand that, that would almost be believable if the officer was somebody of my size. If the officer was a small person, Darren Wilson didn't look small from his arm and from his, like I said, I saw his top part. He never got out of the car for me to see his full body size. I could tell he wasn't a small officer. It wasn't like he could be overtooken (sic) very easily.

    Once you have a grasp on something, I don't care if someone's really strong, if you have a good grip on it, you can pretty much hold on to a lot if someone's stronger than you, you can still hold onto a lot. Not his flesh so much more, but more his shirt. I'm not letting this shirt go sort of thing.

  • Just to clarify, you didn't see him get out of the car, you saw him standing up and fully out of the car later, correct?

  • The police officer?

  • Yes, I did, correct.

  • So how would you compare him to how your build and height is? How tall did you say you are?

  • 5'6", 5'7", 123 pounds. He was bigger than me.

  • He wasn't so much bigger than me like Big Mike, but he was bigger than me. You can tell he was a full grown man, he was a grown man. He didn't look like he was fat, he looked like he was a little muscle, like a little training on him. He looked like he was solid muscle also.

    I didn't see where he was very weaker than Big Mike, just so much as he had a bad position sitting down not even getting out of the car, again, to even confront. Just basically trying to, like he was trying to pick up a kid or something like that. It is still the whole ordeal more still looking like chastisement from a father to a son type of deal.

  • Number 1?

    Yeah, Just take a couple steps back, I'm trying to trace how this began. Again, he puts it in reverse, what did you say, from your point of view or perspective, are you saying that Officer Darren is the aggressor in this situation in regards to making that first grab or whatever that is first?

  • Correct, yes, I am. He was the aggressor by initially just the way he reversed and opened his door and the grab, it was overaggressive. I felt like it wasn't needed. If it was just regular backing up and just gently getting out of his car, we had no reason why we wasn't running no time before then, so we had no reason to run from him if he would have did it right if he was, you know, answering to a distress call and he did catch us, or catch him. He would have definitely locked both of us up at the time, but like I said, he never said anything about the store, he never got out of the car or anything like that, it was all aggressive.

  • Okay, thank you.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Okay. So the first shot goes off in the car while he has Big Mike's hand?

  • At this time with the gun out, he don't have much of the flesh so much as his shirt.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Okay.

  • A real tight grip on his shirt now.

  • Does he have on a long or short sleeve shirt?

  • Short sleeve shirt.

  • What about the police officer?

  • The police officer, like I said, he had a short sleeve shirt on, yes. I seen his arm, his forearm, yeah, he had short sleeve shirt on.

  • So you told us the position of the hand when the gun goes off the first shot inside the car, he's in the car, the shot you said went out of the car?

  • Hit Big Mike and then what?

  • When the first shot went off, we were so close and ringing, I've been shot before so instantly everything, emotions that I had, like I've been shot three or four years ago, so everything is still fresh. With guns, I really dislike them loud bangs.

    At the time and seeing the fire come out of the gun and shot go off, when I see Big Mike, I see the blood come down his, where the officer had his right side. I'm on his right side, I see the blood come down.

    I never looked at myself because I was so afraid I was like, oh, I saw him. My eyes got big, he didn't say anything after that. He kind of looked at my face and saw my eyes and at that time, that was when the officer let go and we were both able to run. That's when I turn and run. He was right behind me.

  • Which way did you run on the map?

  • After the first shot took off, we both ran this way. (indicating)

  • Now, I was so in shock and so in fear, at that time now I'm just, I'm really afraid, I'm really afraid. I don't know if the officer's coming towards Big Mike or just towards both of us. Right now I'm just so afraid that the time I get past the first vehicle, I was in front of Big Mike when we was walking. When I took off running, I was still in front of him.

    When I got to the first vehicle, which was like a Sunfire or gray Sunfire, so very small vehicle. The officer was not yet out of his car, he was still in his car because I was able to run to the car and like stand, not squatting real low, but I was standing behind the car, the Sunfire, but I know he was able to still see the back of my neck and hair and all of those things.

    When Big Mike ran past me, he saw me, he looked directly at me he said, keep running, Bro. And at that time is when I kind of hear the door opening, I figure the officer is getting out of his car now, but before then, like I said, the officer was still in his car, I was able to run, squat behind the first car.

    Big Mike ran, he was right behind me. He looked directly in my eyes and said, keep running, Bro. That's when I knew that I was still in plain sight. Now, the tension of me, I'm so afraid that I can't move any more, so I'm just standing there behind the first car now.

    There is people in this car. Now there is people coming outside the house because they heard the first shot, there is not that many people. As Big Mike run past me and sees me, he keeps going. He makes it past the second car, once he gets to the second car, I can feel, I'm not looking around me because I'm so scared. I'm just standing there and I can feel someone approaching, so I kind of give a glance over to my right and it is the officer now, he's walking, he's walking, but he is kind of fast walking. He's not running or anything like that, but he has his weapon drawn.

  • Just like you are doing now?

  • Yes, in this manner, his weapon is drawn and he's walking in at fast manner. He's not saying anything, he's not saying freeze, he's not saying anything at this time while still just concentrating, he is walking.

    As I see him, I'm in plain sight, Big Mike was able to see me. He ran past me, keep running. I'm so scared, I cannot move my feet.

    And I watch the officer walk past, he never even looked at me. He just kept walking past and I'm watching him and I'm in awe. I'm like okay, is he looking for us or is he going after him, but everything is in my head is just racing real fast because of the gunshot and I'm hyperventilating, my heart is pounding.

    After he walked past me, I kind of stand up more. I'm trying to ask the people in the first car, could I please just let me in the vehicle, I stay in the same complex. You can just drop me off. They said no, and they pulled off on the sidewalk.

  • Where did they pull to?

  • The first car? They didn't drive through the driveway, they pulled on the sidewalk to drive past the police officer. Once they pulled off, I was even more visible now. I'm standing straight, the officer's back is towards me, Big Mike's back is towards me and the officer because he is running away.

    I'm watching the officer, he's walking and Big Mike gets past the third car, the final car before the second shot was fired. It was the second shot fired, pow, the officer shot. I don't know if it hit, I wasn't that close to see that it struck Big Mike, but the manner that he jerked and just stopped in his track, I sense that he was hit again.

    The first time I definitely knew, I definitely saw him get shot the first time, he had been struck one time already.

    The second time he shot, I didn't know if it hit him or not, but he kind of jerked and that's when he stopped running. He just kind of stopped and turned around at the officer. And now he's face-to-face with the officer, but not so close.

    Now, Big Mike is probably, he's not fully at the driveway, but he gets probably to the curb of the driveway when the second shot, and now at the second shot, the officer, I'll just put DW, he's passing the third vehicle.

  • Where are you?

  • At this time I'm still right here.

  • You are at the second vehicle?

  • Yes, but I'm more over to the side now because like I said, I was trying to talk to the people in the front car. I was on the side of their car when I was trying to talk to them.

    After they pulled off, I had to stand up and I was still in shock and now I'm just watching the officer, you know, pace towards Big Mike. I see him fire the second shot, I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer. And now the officer is past the last car and Big Mike is off the sidewalk now more in the street.

  • What is Big Mike doing?

  • At that time Big Mike's hands was up, but not so much up in the air because he had been struck already in this region somewhere on this. It was like this hands is up and this hand is kind of like down sort of.

  • His hands were nowhere near his waist?

  • No, his hands never went down towards his waistline or anything, like he didn't have a belt on or anything.

  • Was he sagging, was his pants sagging or you say he wasn't wearing a belt?

  • Yeah, at that time he didn't look like he was sagging.

  • That's okay if he was, I'm trying to get the picture.

  • At that time I wasn't looking for, I was looking more at him and the officer because how he stopped, I felt like he was shot again, so now I'm really fearing like, wow, he's been shot twice. Not knowing for sure he has been shot twice, definitely know he has been shot one.

  • Okay. The reason why I am asking you about the sagging, we probably all know the kind of, you know, how young folks do it.

  • A lot of times when they are sagging, their pants are down so low that you can actually see the waist area.

  • That's what I'm asking, was he sagging or do you recall?

  • Was not, but no belt?

  • Did he have a weapon that day?

  • No, rna' am, none whatsoever, anything like that.

  • All right. He turns around, show us again how his hands were?

  • His hands, this one is higher, this hand is higher, this one is, like I said, he was definitely struck with the first shot. So I could tell he was injured because this hand was a little lower than this hand. As I'm looking at him, he said I'm, he didn't say I'm unarmed per se, he said I don't have a gun, but he's still mad, he still has his angry face. I don't have a gun.

    And he goes, he never started running because, you know, he's hit, but sort of, I don't have a gun. And before he can say the second sentence or before he can even get it out, that's when the several more shots came.

  • How close would you say the officer was to Big Mike when Big Mike is saying to him, I don't have a gun. Like can you kind of show us?

  • I can't be definite on feet.

  • Big Mike is somewhere here, and the officer is here?

  • Yes. He's not on the sidewalk no more, he's on the street level now and the officer has, he's not so close to the third car, but he's like, he's not on the sidewalk on the other side, he's closer to the other side of the street, the opposite side of Big Mike.

  • You are where?

  • I'm still standing right in plain sight standing on the side.

  • You can hear him say I don't have a gun?

  • I can see him start to say something.

  • What did you hear him say, if anything?

  • I heard him start to say I don't have, but you know, in my state of mind in my shock, I'm bouncing in and out. Time, in my mind slowed down and everything, I can see what is going on.

  • Let me just make sure I understand because this is important. Does he actually say, did you actually hear him say, I don't have a gun or this is what you are thinking he's trying to say?

  • No, the first statement was I don't have a gun.

  • You heard him say that?

  • Yes, I don't have a gun.

  • The second statement he was starting to say I, you know, he couldn't get the full sentence out before the rest of the shots hit his body. And I stood and watched face-to-face as every shot was fired and as his body went down and his body never. His body kind of just went down and fell, you know, like a step, you know what I'm saying? Like a step, his body just kind of collapsed down and he just fell.

  • Was he walking towards the officer as he was collapsing?

  • He couldn't get a step off like. When he was giving his second sentence, what he was going to say, it was like he was going to step close to the officer, but like I said, before he could even get that sentence out, the rest of the shots was hitting him and he was going down.

  • And was shots being fired as he was going down?

  • Shots was definitely fired while he was going down. The last shot he fired he was so close to the ground, it looked like to me he was already on the ground. His knees were, he was going down, he was already down before the last shot came.

  • So he never like got on his knees, he was just falling down?

  • He was falling. I can almost feel the shots because like I said, I've been shot before. I'm so face-to-face with him being shot, I'm seeing his eyes blink and all of these different. It is making me relive the pain of coming through because I've only been shot one time.

    I can see how many shots this officer is firing, it is sickening to my stomach, I'm almost bursting in tears right there. I threw up a little in my mouth initially. I got in my head that he's dead. When I see his body hit the ground, in my head I say he's dead.

    At that time while he's on the ground, the officer is standing there, he doesn't look around like he's looking for me or anything like that, I'm still in plain sight. I never went anywhere until it clicked back to me that he may could be looking for you too.

    Again, at that time, that's more fear for my life. I just seen him gun down and kill someone I was just walking with my friend Big Mike, I see that, I see with my eyes he killed him. Now in my head I'm wondering what is he going to do with me.

  • Let me ask you this. When he stopped shooting, what did he do, the officer?

  • When he stopped shooting, the officer, he just kind of stood there.

  • Did he go check for, check his pulse?

  • Did he check to see if there was a weapon anywhere?

  • What do you mean he just stood there?

  • After giving the final shots, the rippling shots because there is only one rippling shots. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, he kind of stood there. And at that time I see him, and I see Big Mike on the ground, he's not moving, breathing or anything like that. I see the officer kind of just standing there, it wasn't for like a full two seconds when I took off running, I just

  • So you didn't see the officer when he went back to his car or when he left the scene or anything like that?

  • No, I didn't see him go back to his car or anything when I took off running. My building is right here, I was so afraid for my life that I didn't want to go to any other direction, so I took this direction all the way, all the way around. I went the longest way around to my house.

    Now, when I got into my apartment, I wasn't there for a minute or two, my girlfriend is there, I'm hyperventilating, I'm still throwing up, I have been throwing up since I started running. I've been throwing up all the way along the run.

    When I got there, she's trying to calm me down, but I'm telling her, I'm trying to tell her what just happened, but I'm so, I mean, I'm hyperventilating so much that I can't really tell her, and now I want to see did it really just happen, did he just die, was he just injured, did that just happened. So not a full two minutes

  • Excuse me, Dorian, do you mind because we have been going now almost two hours and the court reporter because his hands need a break.

  • Can we take, because we still have a bit for you to do and if you need a break or restroom break, we'll walk you out here in a minute. Is that all right if we take like a five minute break so that the court courter can stretch his hands. You all can take a five minute break if you like.

    (Recess)

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Okay. Dorian, you were telling us about, I think where we left off Mike Brown or Big Mike had fell down.