The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everybody says good morning.)

  • I'm Sheila Whirley. Of course, Kathi Alizadeh is here, 12 grand jurors is here, and the court reporter. Today is September the 25th, Thursday. And I don't have the total program memorized for this morning or for today. I can tell you our first witness is

    , we heard his taped statements last time we were here, recorded statements with the police, with the FBI agent, and also made several appearances on the media for CNN, and I think various TV channels. You guys remember that, he is going to testify live here this morning.

    And then, Kathi, could you tell us what else is on the agenda today?

  • I don't know. No, actually, we have a witness scheduled for 10:30. He called me bright and early this morning to cancel, so we're going to probably play you, I don't think Witness Number 10, remember the guy that was

    He has a recorded statement I don't think I played.

  • Only played part of it. We had about ten minutes left.

  • We can play the end of that to finish that and then we also have, you all heard from last time and she has media interviews that take, I think, about 33 minutes total for all of her media interviews. And then she also has some recorded statements that we can play and hopefully, that will fill out the morning.

    And then in the afternoon we have a witness scheduled to be here at 12:30. I will check and make sure he hasn't called to cancel during a break or whatever, hopefully then we will have another witness here in the afternoon. He also has a taped statement. I can't remember if it is 30 minutes or an hour, it doesn't exceed an hour.

    So if he, you know, shows up, we can play his statement and then have him testify, and I think we are trying to recess 2:30.

    3:15.

  • At the lunch break, if we need to figure out how to fill our time, we'll do that.

    Also, if you recall, Witness Number 10 had talked about the fact that he is,

    at the scene the aftermath,

    I do have that clip and we will play it for you. It is only a couple minutes and, you know, just so you know,

    It is not a very long clip, so if you all, if we go through it, we can play it again. So we can go back and try to listen, because the person who is doing the recording occasionally speaks and, of course, their voice will kind of talk over the people that are in the background.

    So it might be, if you request it, it might be you want to hear that a couple of times just so you can try to pick up what's being said. All right.

  • All right. I'll go get the first witness.

  • Let's talk about the question that they had.

  • We were not on the record, I think it was last week when one of you asked a question about your deliberations and, of course, you've been sitting as a grand jury for several months, so you know that it takes nine people to indict and the question was asked what if we have, what if we can't, since we're giving you a variety of different charges to consider, I think the question was, what if we don't have nine people that all agree on the same charge, what do we do then or what happens.

    And I wanted to make sure that I put that in there in the record that that was a question that was asked and we have had discussions about that and what I will tell you is we're researching this because we want to make sure before we tell you, you know, we want to make sure we're correct on the law, but I assure you that we will have an answer for you well before you begin your deliberations about what, in the event that that would happen, what happens then. All right.

    Are there any other questions that anybody had thought of? Okay, all right. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Introduce yourself to the jurors, please.

  • All right. , where do you live? You don't have to give me your exact address, in what vicinity?

  • I live in Canfield.

  • Do you live in the Canfield Green Apartments?

  • How long have you lived there?

  • Urn, going on a year now.

  • One year. So you lived there on August the 9th of 2014?

  • Is that the day that Michael Brown was shot?

  • Uh, no, I think it was like on the 9th.

  • August 9th of 2014, correct?

  • What day was it?

  • Urn, I think that was a Saturday.

  • Okay, Saturday. Do you remember your Saturday that day?

  • Yes. All I did that morning, early that morning, my family and I went out for breakfast and we came back around nine something and we all took a nap.

  • How many folks went to breakfast with you?

  • Uh, four altogether. My fiancee and my three kids.

  • And then you all came back and took a nap?

  • And so what time did you wake up from the nap?

  • Urn, I was actually woken up about 11:00, 11:30.

  • Did something wake you up or you just woke up?

  • A friend of mine came over.

  • Okay. And what happened when your friend came over?

  • Urn, I steps outside with him for a couple of minutes, maybe no longer than five minutes.

  • Okay. Can you show us on the map? You can use that pointer or that laser light thing.

    Show us where you live.

  • For the record, this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.

  • Oh, I have to push it.

  • Yeah, push it down.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, show us where you live.

  • I live right here.

  • All right. So is that an upstairs or ground level?

  • That's the middle level, that's the second floor.

  • Do you have a balcony?

  • So when you went out and talked with your friend, were you on the balcony?

  • On the balcony.

  • On the balcony?

  • An then what happened?

  • I goes back in the house. I goes back in the house.

  • And speak up a little.

  • I goes back in the house no longer, three, four minutes after that maybe, and I heard something going on outside.

  • And do you investigate that to see what it is?

  • Yes, I happen to look out the window.

  • All right. And what do you see?

  • I see a guy on the side, on the driver's side of a police vehicle. I just see something going on through the window, like a tussling going on through the window.

  • Can you show us on the map where you saw this police vehicle?

  • Urn, about right here.

  • Okay. And show us again where your apartment is.

  • My apartment is right here.

  • So you are looking sort of down?

  • From your perspective, from your point of view, are you looking at the driver's side of the vehicle or the passenger's side of the vehicle?

  • I'm looking directly through the passenger window to the driver, you know, so I could see real good.

  • Okay. So which direction was the car facing?

  • The vehicle was actually facing

  • The truck, the police truck.

  • The police vehicle was like facing like up here, you know, kind of like my direction, but this way diagonal like.

  • Maybe like facing this building.

  • Okay. So you're saying it was like facing that building?

  • Yeah, kind of, you know, by diagonal.

  • All right. So if it was traveling, which way would it have been traveling?

  • Urn, it was traveling going towards West Florissant.

  • All right. That would be going west on Canfield Drive?

  • But it was diagonal?

  • Parked when you saw it?

  • Did it look like the brake lights were on or anything?

  • I didn't notice that.

  • Okay, all right. So it is facing this way diagonally, but you can see the passenger side versus the driver's side?

  • I could see the passenger's side clearly.

  • Versus the driver's side.

  • Okay. So then you see a tussling going on, can you give us any more description about what the tussling looks like?

  • Urn, obviously, the window is between them, so I just see both arms moving.

  • When you say both arms, what do you mean?

  • I see, if my window was in this direction I can see the officer's arms moving this way and I see Mike's arms, you know, whatever, through the window, whatever.

  • Can you see skin of the arms, are they wearing long sleeves?

  • Yeah, it was skin.

  • Could you tell two black people, two white people, black and white?

  • I could tell black and white.

  • You could tell black and white. You said Mike, you used the name Mike?

  • Did you know Mike?

  • Had you ever met him before?

  • I seen him before.

  • Because he lived in the neighborhood you thought?

  • I'm not even sure.

  • You don't know, okay. Had you ever talked to him?

  • All right. Okay. So then what after you see the tussling?

  • I see the tussling and all of the sudden, he also had a friend with him, he was standing like in front of the vehicle, the police cruiser, but like on the passenger side in front, maybe like 4 feet away from him, but all of the sudden, they just takes off running.

  • So his friend, which you now know to be who, what is his friend's name, do you know what his friend's name is now?

  • Urn, urn, Dorian.

  • Okay, Dorian. So was his friend on the, Mike was on the driver's side; is that correct?

  • With the officer tussling you said?

  • Was Dorian on the driver's side too?

  • No, he was on the passenger side.

  • The passenger side of the?

  • Police cruiser.

  • Closer to where you could see?

  • Okay. And what was he doing?

  • He's just standing, just standing there.

  • Okay. And then what?

  • And, like I said, they both just take off running, almost like at the same time.

  • Okay. Did you see anything that occurred that caused them both to take off running?

  • No, I didn't notice that.

  • All of the sudden they both

  • They takes off running.

  • Did you hear anybody saying anything?

  • Urn, I heard, that's the only thing I heard was just the tussling or whatever, like maybe some voices, but I'm not sure like what was said, they just take off running.

  • All right. They took off running which way?

  • Urn, Mike, he runs straight down Canfield directly in the middle of the road, and his friend, like I said, he was in the front passenger side, and if the vehicle, the police cruiser is like right here and there was also two parked vehicles on the side right here, and his friend takes off running directly behind the first vehicle he sees.

  • That was on the side.

  • Do you recall what those vehicles were like, the color and make of the cars?

  • I just remember the white vehicle that Dorian ran to.

  • Do you know what kind of car that was?

  • It was like a two-door Monte Carlo.

  • Okay. So there were two cars parked, the first was the Monte Carlo close to the police vehicle?

  • And then Mike is running down, I guess east, well, you are showing us east on Canfield Drive?

  • And then what happens?

  • And, urn, the moment they take off running, I see the officer immediately gets out of his vehicle, pull out his gun, definitely, in his shooting position, and let me see. Mike must have probably made it about right here in front of this driveway, as I said before, he didn't make it there, he just, when he gets out of the car he just immediately starts shoot.

  • As soon as the officer gets out of the car he's shooting?

  • And when you say the shooting, I don't know what your phrase, was standpoint, what did you say?

  • Yeah, like in a shooting position.

  • Position, show us the shooting position.

  • Urn, like, you know (indicating) .

  • So he gets out of the car and does that?

  • Yeah, or maybe this right here.

  • Okay, thank you. And Mike is running and he's shooting?

  • And he's shooting like with Mike's back to him?

  • And then what?

  • And, urn, at the time I was still in the window looking and, urn, my eyes, actually, I was still kind of focused, I was focused on both of them, but mainly on Dorian because he was still closer to the officer than Mike because Mike, he ran kind of fast at that time, but as I see Dorian ducking down looking at the officer shooting, I was kind of thinking that the officer was, he was going to stop, even hisself with the vehicle that his friend ran to and come over and shoot him.

  • Shoot Dorian?

  • Yeah, but I kept my eyes on him because I seen Dorian constantly looking over the vehicle and looking at the officer each time.

  • Did Dorian look a certain way or anything in your opinion?

  • Just looking scared.

  • Definitely looking at the officer, like I said.

  • Was he saying anything, Dorian, that you could hear?

  • How many shots did you hear the officer fire when he got out of the car and pursued Mike Brown?

  • Maybe four or five times.

  • Okay. And you didn't count the shots?

  • But it seemed like four or five?

  • Yeah, it was kind of like a round though.

  • Okay. So you seen Dorian, Mike is running, now what?

  • I'm still in the window and, urn, I notice that the officer passed his friend Dorian where he ran to and that's when I decided to run outside to see what, you know, get a closer look.

    But I forgot my phone in the bedroom, so I still took some steps, ran into the bedroom and got my phone and I went back, which is just a couple of seconds.

  • And where did you end up when you came out? Show us on the map where you were.

  • I was at this building right here on the second floor.

  • On the balcony.

  • Turning on the power on my phone and the moment I steps outside, I see Mr. Brown kind of bent down a little bit with his arms tucked in like on his stomach, so now I'm thinking that he's now shot.

    He was going down definitely so, and the officer just let out a few more rounds to him and he hit the ground and that's when I seen blood.

  • So when you stay he was going down, the officer shot more at him you say?

  • How many more times maybe?

  • Maybe four or five more times.

  • Can you demonstrate for us when you say going down, what his position looked like?

  • His position looked like this.

  • Both arms under?

  • Both arms like this (indicating).

  • Under his torso?

  • Yeah, I remember him like taking two small steps like he was stumbling and like I said, the officer lets out some more shots and that's when he hit the ground.

    Yeah, he hit the ground just like how he, how he laid there or whatever, he dropped the arm.

  • Okay. So he had two arms -(cid:173)

  • Just like this.

  • --and one arm came out?

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah, so all at the same time cause, urn, I thought he was hit in his chest I didn't see no blood yet or, you know, so. When the officer let out more shots, you know, he just hit the ground, boom, just like this.

  • And the officer let off the shots as he was going down?

  • Okay. Did it appear to you that Mike Brown was charging the officer?

  • Did it appear that the officer was being threatened by Mike Brown at that point when he was going down?

  • Okay. Then what did the officer do once Mike Brown hit the ground?

  • Uh, the officer was maybe 5 feet away from his body.

  • Was he 5 feet away, did you see the shots?

  • Yeah, I saw the shots.

  • So he was shooting, when Mike Brown was going down, how far away was he from Mike Brown then?

  • He was like a good 15, 20 feet.

  • From him when he, and let me walk it, I am going to walk back here and you tell me how far, like you be the officer and I'm Mike Brown. So if this room is large enough, about right here?

  • Yeah, maybe, I'm standing at the door.

  • You can stand up.

  • Maybe I'm standing at the door, about this distance.

  • This is the distance between Mike Brown and the officer when he shot him and he was going down?

  • Yeah, at the time that he was going down, but like I said, he was probably a little bit farther when he let out the first shots.

  • The last shots he was about this distance, yeah.

  • Okay. So that's about 20 feet, 15 or 20 feet?

  • That's what you thought it was, right?

  • And what did the officer do? You said at some point he was like five foot from you?

  • Yeah, I see his body, I didn't see him check his body. He was just like 5 feet away from his body, urn, over his shoulder or whatever on his walkie-talkie, still have his gun out pointed at him.

  • Okay. And was Mike Brown moving at that point?

  • No, the moment he hit the ground, I knew he was dead.

  • No more movement?

  • At any point did you hear the officer say anything?

  • No, no, I don't remember.

  • At any point did you hear Mike Brown say anything?

  • How about Dorian?

  • You never heard any of them say anything?

  • They probably was, but you know, I wasn't even paying attention to anything that was said. I was definitely paying attention to the sounds of the gunshots and what was going on.

  • Okay. Did you ever see Dorian get in the car that he was by, a white Monte Carlo? Did it appear to you he got in the car?

  • Yes, I saw him, he's in the car about the time that Mike Brown's body hit the ground.

    So I see him inside the car and

  • Do you actually see him in the car or you are assuming?

  • Yeah, I see him in the car kind of sitting and then, like I said, when I see his body laying there now and it is done and over with, I see two more cops come there, but then probably a little bit before that is when I noticed Dorian had left, the white car left.

  • Okay. You didn't see Dorian any more?

  • No, I didn't see him then.

  • Did you see him any time after that when this investigation was going on at the complex?

  • I don't remember seeing him then.

  • Had you ever seen Dorian before?

  • In the streets, no.

  • So you didn't know Dorian?

  • No, I don't remember seeing him.

  • I asked you to describe him, what do you remember about him?

  • I just remember some dreads.

  • Okay. You really couldn't identify him if I brought a bunch of pictures here and show them to you or do you think you could?

  • Maybe, yeah, I think.

  • I'm not going to show the pictures, I was just asking.

    Did it ever appear that Mike Brown had a weapon?

  • Did it appear when he was, you know, you said holding his torso with both arms when he was going down, that he was going for a weapon in your opinion.

  • No, it just looked like he was going down because the moment I steps outside, I'm thinking now he's hit in his chest area and the officer lets out more shots. It looked like he was going down, anyway, not to like give up, like to surrender, but to go down and bleed, you know, because like I said, before even going down on his knees or whatever, the officer lets out more shots but he had his arms on his torso.

  • When you say on his knees, what do you mean by that?

  • I'm just saying like before, like I said when I was thinking that he's now shot, but he's got his arms like this, you know, like before he even hit the ground, like his knees didn't even hit the ground or nothing like that. Cause I know he was hit, I knew he was hit, that's why I'm pretty sure he was now turned around.

  • Okay. And when he turned around, did you see him raise his hand in any way? I understand you saw his hand on his torso.

  • I didn't see the hands go up, I didn't see no hands go up.

  • Okay. And you already said you didn't see him charge the officer, but you did say the officer was shooting at him as he was running away?

  • After they left and ran from the car?

  • The police car?

  • Okay. Now, when did you first interview with the police?

  • Urn, the first time?

  • Did you talk to them that day when this occurred?

  • Okay. You talked to them the very first day I'm asking?

  • I think so, I mean.

  • That Saturday?

  • Yeah, I think because I talked to a lot of other reporters too. So A lot of people was coming the my house.

  • You talked to a lot of people, I understand.

  • When you talked to the police, do you recall if they came to you or did you go to them?

  • No, they came to me.

  • How did they know to come to you. Were you outside and they came to you or did they come to your house?

  • They definitely just came there. They just came there.

  • To your house?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So just to clarify,

    you heard something that caused you to look out your window and when you did, you saw that Mike Brown was at the vehicle?

  • And the driver's window and you saw hands in the window?

  • Yeah, just going through, just arm movement.

  • Arms moving?

  • Now, when you originally described this, and I, you know, I'm taking notes as you are testifying, so I don't want to say I missed something, but can you show what you showed before or what you saw that Mike Brown's arms or hands appear to be doing?

  • I just see his hands just through the window and I see like the officer's elbow, you know, just like this. (indicating)

  • Okay. Now, you're using your right elbow when you are doing that?

  • And if you were the officer, you'd be sitting in the driver's seat and I'm Mike Brown, I'm standing on this side of you, correct?

  • Was say the officer's right elbow going like this or was it this elbow?

  • No, it was going like this.

  • So if my window is this way, I seen this kind of movement.

  • And you're looking into the vehicle through the passenger window?

  • Yeah, and slightly through the front windshield like, yeah.

  • Okay. So to be clear, anything that happened before you looked out the window, you have not witnessed nor heard anything about, right?

  • And then by the time you first look out, Dorian is already on the passenger side of the vehicle near the sidewalk?

  • Yeah, kind of like in front, in front of the vehicle though, you know, not on the side of it, but still like 5 feet away from it. Yeah, basically between the sidewalk and the parked vehicle.

  • Okay. So was he in the street or grassy area?

  • He was still in the street like, yeah.

  • But not at the driver's door?

  • No, not at the driver's door at all.

  • So he was not in a position where if Mike Brown wanted to reach to him, he couldn't, he wasn't there?

  • No, not at all.

  • Okay. And so, and then you said that you ran to get your phone and then I assume it was close by?

  • So you missed some of it?

  • But a matter of seconds?

  • And then when you came back, you went outside then?

  • So you're actually out on your balcony?

  • So still above ground level?

  • Looking kind of down?

  • Did you start recording with your phone at that point?

  • No, my phone, it was completely off and I was cutting on the power still.

  • Okay. So now, you did record some things with your phone that day; is that right?

  • But the things that you recorded were after?

  • Just right after, before the yellow tape, yeah.

  • Right. So you did not record any part of shooting; is that correct?

  • I don't have anything else. Questions?

    This is When you were in your bedroom looking out the window is it a clear view or did you have blinds or shades or curtains?

  • I had blinds.

  • So you had to like open the blinds or peer through them?

  • I put my finger in it and had it like this, yeah. (indicating)

  • So does that bother the vision a little bit?

  • No, it didn't mess it up. I mean, I could see everything when I did that.

  • Did you notice any other vehicles around the police car or in front of or the police car initially?

  • No, I just seen two vehicles parked on the side, on the sidewalk.

  • Nothing in front of the police vehicle though?

  • No, it was behind it like.

  • Did you see Michael Brown's head or shoulders entering the car at any time?

  • Inside the vehicle?

  • Inside, yeah.

  • So just his arms?

  • Yes. Okay, thank you.

  • At any time did you see Dorian with anything in his hands or Michael pass anything to Dorian?

  • Okay, thank you.

    At any

  • So go back to part of the story you were explaining, you wouldn't mind maybe explaining it. When you are in your bedroom looking through the window, through the blinds, you explain seeing Officer Darren Wilson, but can you walk us through exactly, you said you saw him shooting, kind of what that looked like. You know, if you heard him kind of what, you know, you showed us how he was holding his gun, but I mean was it cocking back, is there any sort of smoke, shell casing, anything that you may have seen or heard during that?

  • No, no, he just, I say immediately, when they started running, he just gets out of his car and I see him in his shooting position and he lets out some rounds. So I didn't see no shells fall or no gun smoke or anything.

  • As he is progressing, is he continually moving, what is he doing?

  • He's, he's, he's taking, he's taking like large steps, so I didn't see him like run or anything, so he is just taking large steps, you know, towards him, you know, while his back is turned towards him.

  • When Darren Wilson is pursuing Michael Brown, did you see anybody like maybe with a camera or cell phone running like towards or moving towards the officer, like towards where Dorian Johnson would have been?

  • At the point where the police officer gets out of the car and he, I guess, goes into his shooting motion, did you ever see him like sprint with the gun in one hand sort of like this kind of motion, with the gun in one hand?

  • He was always just like that?

  • Yeah, in that position.

  • I have three questions. You were in your room, in your bedroom, you were looking outside?

  • You know what, can you speak up?

    I'm sorry. You were in your bedroom, you are looking outside?

  • Where was Michael Brown when you were on your balcony, where was he positioned on that?

  • He was definitely, I was just past this driveway. He was about right there, no, probably about right here. (indicating)

  • Where was Michael Brown when you got outside?

  • Right here. (indicating)

  • Same place. So he was in the same spot when you were looking at him from your balcony?

  • And he was, when you saw him from outside?

  • Urn, no, he was right here the moment I come outside.

  • I know for sure while I was in the window.

  • Where his death is, he actually ran just a little bit past his death, death bed, I know that for sure because from my window, this building right here, kind of blocks the view.

  • You didn't see him run towards Copper Creek Court?

  • Copper Creek Court, yeah, I see.

  • You saw him down there. Did he get to the corner of Copper Creek Court, did you see him there?

  • At the corner of it?

  • Or did you see him basically the same spot within just a few feet from your balcony to when you got outside?

  • Yeah, just right here, yeah.

  • Okay. So you didn't see him anywhere near that corner?

  • Oh, no, no, no, no.

  • Can I interrupt you real quick? I'm not sure, maybe I'm mistaken.

    Okay.

  • You're inside, when you are looking through the window, you are inside?

  • From there you go onto your balcony?

  • And you call that outside, that's outside, right?

  • Yes, the balcony is outside.

  • Okay. And then you go leave your balcony and go outside of the building?

  • Outside on the ground level?

  • No, that was way after, way after.

  • Okay. So inside, when you go outside, that's on the balcony.

  • Okay. Thank you.

  • I didn't know, it sounded like --

    Yeah, I thought you had gone out of the apartment.

  • No, no, I'm still on the balcony.

  • Because I was a little confused by that, I thought, it was seconds getting and I thought getting your phone and everything.

  • No, no, no, I stayed on the balcony.

  • And you didn't see him move that much from that time?

  • No, like I said, from where his death bed is, from my window, he ran past that just a little bit.

  • Okay. And you said that say the officer got inside his car, he was inside his car before Michael Brown's body even hit the ground?

  • That's why I'm asking because I misheard.

  • No, I mean, he was, the officer was, 20 feet away from him when Mike Brown, before Mike Brown's body hit the ground, he let out some more shots.

  • He turned around and got into his car?

  • Not, not right after that, not right after that.

  • Okay. That was all, I couldn't really hear you.

  • I'm glad that was cleared up because you were on the balcony the entire time that this incident was occurring?

  • No, not the entire time.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Once you came out to the balcony.

  • You never came to the ground?

  • Until after the incident --

  • Yeah, after.

  • --had occurred?

  • Until after Mike Brown was on the ground dead?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • That's when you came out on the ground?

  • Okay.

    If you are right here.

  • You see the police officer, you can see the front of it. If you are here and the police is running here.

  • The officer is --

  • Or the officer. What do you see, you see his side, you see his back, you see his front.

  • I see Mike Brown's front, I see the officer's side, I see his side, he is still in his shooting position.

  • Is it Mike Brown was down right here.

  • No, his body was right here (indicating). And he just, the longest I think he ran right here, not long at all. And like I said, and by the time I got to the balcony, he is turned around right here, stumbled right here where his body, his death bed is. The officer still about right here.

  • Okay. You see part of his side and part of his back?

  • You don't see him doing this all the time?

  • Yes, I saw that he was in his shooting position. So I see, you know, his arm and his side the officer's side.

  • You see this hand and you see perfectly with this one too?

  • let me just ask you. I until you pointed on the diagram to where you sea say Mike's Brown's body eventually came to rest.

  • Show me on the diagram again.

  • Right there. (indicating)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Okay. So you know the police were out there afterwards, correct?

  • And they photograph everything, I don't know if you saw that, but I will tell you they did. I mean, do you have any reason the police moved the body into a different location?

  • No, they didn't.

  • And you know police took measurements of where the body was in relation to things and they did a diagram. Would it help you to talk about where the officer was and where Mike Brown was if I show you that diagram?

  • Okay. So I'm going to show you a diagram that was done, I'm not trying to mess you up at all because it is difficult to remember all of this, I get. So this is a diagram, Grand Jury Number 2, okay.

    And so this is where they measured where the police truck was when the police got there. You never saw that truck move again, did you?

  • Okay. So here is this, do you see this little grassy area here?

  • Yeah, that's my apartment.

  • You can see that's kind of reflected in the diagram?

  • Oh, that's what that is supposed to be.

  • I think so, do you see that?

  • So the truck is about, you know, somewhere in this area according to the diagram, correct?

  • No, it was actually up here, like right here. (indicating)

  • So closer, like up here.

  • You think it was closer up to here?

  • Yeah, I know it was because there is a sign right here and it kind of evened itself up. I just know it was closer to the driveway right here.

    (indicating)

  • So let me ask you this. Do you think that the police officer measured it wrong or do you think that the, anybody moved the truck?

  • No, no, I know that the truck was right here, it was definitely right here.

  • Just before this driveway diagonally in the middle of the street.

  • Okay. And you see here this line right here that kind of looks like the edge of the driveway?

  • That's the edge of the driveway.

  • You say the truck was more up here?

  • More right here, before the driveways that's across from each other.

  • Do you all have your diagrams?

    (All indicate yes.)

  • I can also put this up there.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So now here is in diagram the depiction of where Michael Brown's body came to rest, okay. And here is the little, the driveway or the street Caddiefield, and as you can see here, is Copper Creek Court up here to the north.

    So the way they have it, his body is somewhere right around here. You don't think that's right?

  • No, it is not right. His body is definitely right here because like I said, I live there and that's the driveway right here, his death bed is just a little bit past the driveway, just a little bit past the driveway.

  • You all want me to put this up here so he can point and follow along with yours?

    You were standing on your balcony, I believe that distance in your mind that's where you would see him because you are on a balcony, so that's the distance your eyes were focused where the two people are in position. And so you seen Mike collapse, I believe that from your balcony that's, that's where your eyes focused that that's where he laid, but actually like everything was done, they did the measurements, that it was a little bit further than your eyes focused on where he actually fell. So not saying that you're wrong, that's just from the vision point of your perspective that's where you were standing.

  • And she's exactly right. I'm not trying to say you are lying about this or anything, I mean, don't make it, don't feel like you're on the defensive, like I'm trying to point out that you're wrong or that you weren't really there.

  • I was there.

  • I know you were there. But people remember things differently or they see things from a different perspective, distances are hard to judge. And so I just want to clear things up and I'm going to show you what is a photograph that was taken by the detective who processed the scene.

    What's the envelope you took that out of, Sheila? Oh, here it is. This came out of Grand Jury Exhibit Number 3. And it is Image Number 3, you see that three on the back there?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So this is the image that the detective took of the police car?

  • That's the police car right there.

  • That's the officer's vehicle, yes. Does that help you get a perspective of where the car might have been?

  • You may be right.

  • So you don't think that helps you?

  • No, no, I think it really does. So if I'm on my balcony, that's why, I know it's a little wall right here, so from my balcony right here it is on the side. So I could barely see kind of because I got barbecue grills right here.

  • So I kind of leaned over and still see the vehicle right there, but I'm thinking, you know, right there on this picture.

  • Sure. Okay. And you see the corner here, I believe, that's probably that corner right there, right?

  • Yeah, Canfield.

  • And then I'm going to show you Image Number 13.

  • So this is where his body came to rest and this is Copper Creek Court right here. Does it appear to be right in front of this building, right here?

  • Yeah, right in the front.

  • So would that be more like right here?

    (indicating)

  • I know that pole right there, yeah, you know what I think that's right, yeah, okay.

  • So does that help you?

  • I'm not trying to get you to change what you say you saw because we all understand?

  • Yeah, I saw what I saw, it is just the parked vehicle and the body from my window and balcony.

  • Okay. Just again to clarify, you're not saying anybody moved the car or moved the body, correct?

  • No, I didn't see nobody move the body.

  • So seeing those photographs, you believe that those photographs do depict where the body was?

  • And where the vehicle was?

  • Okay, all right. I just wanted to clarify that.

    Could you put that Number 3 on the screen.

  • Image Number 3?

    Yes, please.

  • couple times when you were explaining the story just a couple minutes ago, you referred to Michael Brown's death bed?

  • Do you mean where you saw him fall in a day or do you mean where there is currently a memorial?

  • No, where he laid.

  • Where he fell?

  • I'm not sure which button to push. We need to push.

  • We need somebody to teach us how to do this.

  • We're just rocking and rolling now. I want to get this all on the screen.

    I'm putting up here Image Number 3. At the request of one of the jurors.

    Let me go over here to the map. Now that driveway we see behind the police vehicle.

  • Is that this driveway or this driveway?

  • This one, the first one. Okay. All right. Thank you.

  • Can you point out where your balcony is at on the picture?

  • Okay. All right. Thank you.

    Can you

  • Urn, should be right here. (indicating)

  • I apologize if I missed this. Are you on the second floor?

  • There are three floors?

  • Would the other cars that were parked there, the one that Dorian allegedly ran behind.

  • Would they have been in this picture?

  • Yes, before then, yes.

  • So, yeah, I kind of thought the vehicle was a little bit upwards from my balcony and from my window. But it would have been right here and like another one right here. (indicating)

  • That's where those two vehicles were parked?

  • So, Michael, those two vehicles, you're talking about the white Monte Carlo?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) And then I think you described in a previous statement a purple car?

  • Yeah, I think, it was more, it was darker color black.

  • Maroon or black cherry or something.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Were those cars then, did it look like they had stopped in traffic or were they parked?

  • No, they was on the side, they was just on the side. I don't even think they was parked.

  • They was just off to the side.

  • All right. Did you ever see the doors of the Monte Carlo open?

  • That's the funny thing, like I seen the Monte Carlo door, the passenger side door was opened.

  • Okay. Did you ever see anyone inside the Monte Carlo get out?

  • You said you thought Dorian got in into the car, where would he have gotten in? Did you see that, in the passenger's front?

  • Yeah, he would have got in through the passenger's front door.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Because you saw someone in the passenger front door and the door was open?

  • Yeah, the door was open, yeah, so. I didn't see nobody in front other than somebody in the driver's seat.

  • Okay. So you thought Dorian got in that front passenger seat?

  • I want to make sure we are clear on this. Are you just assuming that he got in the car because he was right there and then suddenly you didn't see him?

  • I seen him get inside, but as I said, I didn't see him like make a conversation with the person that was in. I know when I got to the ground, the car was gone.

  • Right. You got to the ground after it was all over?

  • I guess my question is, that Monte Carlo is a two-door car?

  • Yes, as far as I remember.

  • I know it has been described before and I apologize if I don't know if it was you that said it or someone else, but you saw him get in the car.

  • Okay.

    You never saw Dorian beside Michael Brown.

  • The side of him.

  • You never saw him beside him on the driver's side door on either side of him?

  • He was always on the other side of the car?

  • Yeah, on the opposite.

  • I have another question. Did you see anybody else outside, the parking lot in that building or grassy area in front of the parking lot during the shooting.

  • As a matter of fact, yeah, it was, there was another purple car sitting on the parking lot already and that person told me he saw the whole thing. That one person was already outside.

  • Was that a male or female?

  • A male and female.

  • Just so I'm clear on this, is this somebody that you talked to after the fact?

  • Yeah, that I spoke to.

  • And they said they were and they saw the whole thing?

  • Yeah, that they saw when the officer pulled, when he first pulling up to the street to them.

  • And did you tell the police the names of these people?

  • No, I don't know the names.

  • Do you know if those people have ever been talked to by the police?

  • I'm not sure.

  • So was this someone you just kind of met that day?

  • Yeah, just at that moment, you know, just everybody is just talking what they saw and he happen to be outside with his girlfriend, they was just in the car with their feet up, with the doors open.

  • Okay. If I said any names, did you ask his name?

  • It wouldn't help if I said a name or two?

  • It was a man and a woman?

  • Anything else?

    At the point where the last, I guess the final shots by the police officer and you said he was kind of balled up?

  • Did it to your, I guess, your opinion, did it ever seem like he was trying to tackle this officer?

  • No, huh-uh, no, not at all. It just looked like, the moment I come outside, I just thought he was hit, you know, in the stomach somewhere and he was going down, that's my vision right there. Oh, he's going down and then boom, boom, boom, he's down for sure. And, you know, I just knew he was dead the moment, I think, yeah, probably like the very last shot is when like I seen his face. Cause, urn, after all of them shots, I didn't see no blood like splatter until like his face hit the ground, so I thought his head busted up at first so.

  • Just to clarify also, the time in which you were behind your window and you grab your phone and come to the balcony, at that point is that where you would assume Mike Brown stopped and turned around, so you didn't actually see him at any time when he stopped running?

  • I didn't see that moment.

  • I just seen him running away. Then the moment I gets outside, he is now facing the officer.

  • Any other questions?

  • is there anything else that you know that would help this grand jury figure out in its deliberations maybe something that nobody's asked you or that you know now that you would like to tell them.

  • Urn, no, not at the moment, no.

  • If there's anything that you think of in the future before this grand jury concludes its investigation, would you promise to call me or Miss Whirley or the County Police?

  • Just let us know that you have some additional information?

  • And you believe me when I said this is our job to make sure they have as many facts as they could possibly have?

  • So that concludes the question and answer period with in the Michael Brown shooting. Thank you,

  • Thank you. Thank you.

  • . )

    (End of the testimony of

  • All right. This is Kathi Alizadeh, present in the grand jury are all 12 grand jurors and Sheila Whirley and the court reporter, and it is 9:55 a.m. We had a witness wasn't able to appear this morning and so we're going to try to listen to some more recorded statements.

    So the first one we are going to hear, we are going to resume the recorded statement of Witness Number 10. He testified earlier this week and we actually began hearing his recorded statement, but we stopped because if you recall, then was here and we wanted to get her on.

    So Sheila thinks that we stopped the recording at?

  • At 2041. I cued it at 2040. I didn't want to go over 41.

  • Okay. So we will now stop the recording in the grand jury while we are playing the recorded interview of Witness Number 10, which is contained on a file which is on a disc marked Grand Jury Number 24.

    (This is continuation of statement of Witness Number 10.)

    DETECTIVE Okay. at the end of that ten seconds, what happens?

    WITNESS 10: A gunshot. DETECTIVE Okay. And then what happens after that gunshot goes off?

    WITNESS 10: Mr. Brown ran. DETECTIVE Okay. do you know where that gunshot came from?

    WITNESS 10: No, I do not. DETECTIVE Okay. So before he runs, he leaves the car?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. So he kind of comes out of the car then and then he runs, right?

    WITNESS 10: Uh-huh. DETECTIVE He takes off running in which direction?

    WITNESS 10: East. DETECTIVE East, okay, which would be away from you, correct?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. At that point what do you do?

    WITNESS 10: I'm in shock. Urn, I'm thinking that he just killed this police officer because he didn't get out of the car and follow foot pursuit as quickly as I would have thought that he would.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And I think you said six seconds, roughly, before the officer gets out of the car?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE So Michael Brown runs east on, east, where at is he running actually?

    WITNESS 10: He's running in the middle of the street at like, at a slant, urn, and the, it will be the first driveway on the left from the squad car that he was --he was turned --about to make a turn like he was going to go into the driveway. Actually, he did turn into that first driveway and then he stopped and came back towards --by this time the police officer was out of his car with the gun drawn. Okay. And afterwards he stopped and came towards the police officer.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So, urn, Michael Brown is running east heading towards the parking lot, right.

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE The officer comes out of the car. How is the officer, you said with his gun drawn. How is the officer holding his gun.

    WITNESS 10: Just as if he was going to use it.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And do you hear anybody saying anything at in any point in this?

    WITNESS 10: No, no, I was not at a close enough distance to hear any words being exchanged.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Urn, what did this officer do then at that point?

    WITNESS 10: At that point he has his gun drawn at a raised point. He --when he felt he came into a line, close enough distance with him, urn, it appeared that when he did raise his gun, that he's verbally urn, telling this guy, giving him a command.

    And at that point that's when I seen Mr. Brown turn and he like did something. I don't know if it was pull his pants up, it was some type of motion that took place with Mr. Brown's body gesture and after that, he began to run towards the police officer.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So from the time that you hear that first gunshot and the officer gets out of the car until the time that Michael Brown stops and --and turns around and faces the officer, right?

    WITNESS 10: Uh-huh. DETECTIVE Do you hear any gunshots between that that period right there?

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE Okay. So Michael Brown stop, he turns around, correct?

    WITNESS 10: Uh-huh. DETECTIVE Where are his hands at that point, do you know?

    WITNESS 10: Urn, I know for sure they weren't above his head.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Okay. So let's go back to the officer is chasing after or approaching Brown, right?

    WITNESS 10: Uh-huh. DETECTIVE Brown stops, turns around, and just so I'm clear, what happens at that point then?

    WITNESS 10: You're at the point Mr. Brown stops, turns around

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh. He stops and turns around.

    WITNESS 10: He turns around, he does some of body gesture, and I'm thinking he pulled his shorts up, I can't really recall upon what all happened. All I know is that I seen the body gesture. I mostly seen it in the upper body.

    Urn, after that, he began to run at the police officer.

    DETECTIVE Okay. How far away do you think he did was from the officer at this point?

    WITNESS 10: Urn, maybe, I want to say 15 yards he was away and he may have gotten 5 yards before the police officer fired his first shot.

    DETECTIVE Okay. WITNESS 10: So that would bring him in, urn, within a 10 yard range before the police officer would have fired.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Where were, where were Michael Brown's hands when he's, you said he does this thing with his pants, right?

    WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE Or something. Urn, what does he do after he does that?

    WITNESS 10: He runs. He's at a charging motion.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And where are his hands at that time, do you know?

    WITNESS 10: Urn, I'm not sure where his hands was at that time. Uh, all I know is that I'm seeing him coming at a very aggressive, urn, speed and just in a charge mode towards the police officer.

    DETECTIVE Is this a trot or is it a jog or is it a full-out?

    WITNESS 10: No, it's a full-out. I'm coming charge full-blown to try to get to you.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And so the officer fires the first shot when he's how far away?

    WITNESS 10: Urn, 10 yards. DETECTIVE Okay. And how many times do you think he fires?

    WITNESS 10: I think he fires, urn, five to six rounds.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And then after that five or six rounds are fired, what happens.

    WITNESS 10: Uh, Mr. Brown then paused and the police officer ceased fire and Mr. Brown then tried to charge once more and that's when the police officer opened fire.

    DETECTIVE So Brown charged again and the officer opened fire again?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Is that what you said? Okay. And then what happens?

    WITNESS 10: Then he collapsed in the street.

    DETECTIVE Did you see the officer, uh, touch him at all, or anything like that?

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE Okay. And how many officers were present when this took place?

    WITNESS 10: One. DETECTIVE Just the officer that was shooting?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. How long did it take before other officers to show up?

    WITNESS 10: I'm not sure. I walked in the and maybe two minutes, a minute at tops.

    DETECTIVE Okay. But you went back to the to

    WITNESS 10: Two minutes tops, yeah. DETECTIVE Okay. WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE Uh -- WITNESS 10: I'm not sure, I'm not sure there on the time on the response because when I did come back out, I'm not sure if it was the actual police officer that shot, uh, Mr. Brown that was doing the taping. I know when I came back outside, I really wasn't focused then on did another police car show up. What drew my attention was I seen one police officer, urn, taping off the scene and I'm not sure if that was the actual police officer that did the shooting.

    DETECTIVE Okay. You made mention of a car, right?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE It was west, I'm sorry, east of the police car in the middle of the road, right?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE What kind of car do you think that was?

    WITNESS 10: It was Monte Carlo. Blue. DETECTIVE Okay. Do you know what color?

    WITNESS 10: Blue. DETECTIVE Okay. Do you know how many people were in that car or who was driving?

    WITNESS 10: No, I'm not sure. I just seen a driver's from a distance. I couldn't get a description. Uh, I know he was a black African-American.

    DETECTIVE You said he, so it was a male in the car?

    WITNESS 10: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a he. Yeah, yeah.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Do you know if there was anybody else in the car?

    WITNESS 10: No, I'm not sure. DETECTIVE All right. The individual with the dreadlocks that you say were, uh, you said kind of highlighted

    WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE --or had some sort of color to them, right?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE He went where? WITNESS 10: He went urn, at what time? DETECTIVE Uh, I guess what's the first point that you saw him?

    WITNESS 10: The first point was I seen him with the suspect when they were still alive together. The next time I seen him was when after everything already took place where Mr. Brown was fatally injured and he came from nowhere and ran across the street and it would be at the point where he ran across would be in front of the squad car.

    DETECTIVE Okay. WITNESS 10: And he cuts across and yells, uh, "they killed him, they killed him." And I'm not sure if he, at that point when he was yelling at the, urn, that, blue Monte Carlo was at the same, they were at the same point. I'm not sure if he was yelling it just to be yelling it or if he was telling them in the car that they killed him.

    And that --and that he never entered their car or went up to that car that they killed him. He was yelling and he ran through the back fields of Canfield.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Did you notice anybody else outside? You made mention obviously of the, obviously, the the --the guy with the dreadlocks, right.

    WITNESS 10: Uh-huh. DETECTIVE And the occupant of the Monte Carlo, right?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Did you notice anybody else outside at that point?

    WITNESS 10: No, I, I never noticed anybody outside looking or anything. Urn, I was mainly, I have --I have felt like I had tunnel vision where I was just like zoomed in on just what was going on with the police officer.

    Now, urn, I, I didn't see anybody. No, I seen that everybody started coming outside. I did notice when, uh, Mr. Brown was laying on the ground.

    DETECTIVE Okay, all right. Uh, when you went inside and told the you were working at, those people in there, how many people did you tell?

  • Just one. DETECTIVE Just one? WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE And that was the in the , right?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. What did say, anything?

    WITNESS 10: Uh, I can't recall comments.

    DETECTIVE wasn't --I guess --I guess --

    WITNESS 10: I can't --I can't recall comments.

    DETECTIVE Urn, wasn't outside or anything, was ?

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE But , I guess what I'm getting at didn't say, yeah, I know I saw this or

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE Okay. So when you first told that was first, first knowledge of the incident?

    WITNESS 10: Exactly. DETECTIVE Okay. And do you remember --you do not remember name, right?

    WITNESS 10: No, no. I never really got name. This is the time me working there. I never

    DETECTIVE Just a, just a job. WITNESS 10: Exactly, it's just a job. DETECTIVE Okay, all right. How old is , roughly?

    WITNESS 10: I'm not sure. If I had to guess, maybe late , early

    DETECTIVE All right. What, urn, what is your opinion of that incident itself?

    WITNESS 10: Initially, urn, I thought wow, urn, did he have to use the force on him. Urn, could he have taken and retrieved his taser, urn and tased the young guy. He was, I felt like he was unarmed and my initial thoughts was that.

    And after thinking about it and reviewing everything and putting myself in the police officer's shoes, I feel like he handled the situation correct force wise. The gunshot led from the car, the confrontation led from the car.

    He came out with his weapon drawn, urn, trying to pursue the suspect.

    Then, urn, at one point the suspect turns and if he, I felt he was really trying to give himself up, urn, the police officer already has his gun drawn. If you're really trying to give himself up, you're going to lay down on the ground and you're going to let it be known, urn, but that he didn't do that.

    And he charged at him and at that time I feel like the police officer, he didn't have time to really react and holster his weapon and reholster with a taser.

    DETECTIVE Okay. The entire incident from the time that you first saw until the time that Michael Brown was on the ground, how long do you think it lasted.

  • Urn, maybe two minutes. DETECTIVE Okay, all right. You have anything?

    DETECTIVE Did we get an address of where you're working?

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE (Redacted) DETECTIVE No, on the street itself.

    DETECTIVE Oh, no, it's the on the -- WITNESS 10: It's the on the DETECTIVE WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE Or on the or the WITNESS 10: Uh, I believe it is DETECTIVE Okay. And you were just doing that job, an

    job? WITNESS 10: No, it's a DETECTIVE Oh, to okay. WITNESS 10: Yeah. DETECTIVE All right. Urn, is this your, I'm sorry, anything else you can think of? Is this your best recollection of this incident?

    WITNESS 10: Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. And nothing has been embellished, you know, I mean, you're being upfront, honest. There's nothing that you're making more out of or nothing that a you are leaving out on either end of the spectrum; is that --

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to add? Anything else that you feel is important that we should know? Any questions that we did not ask you?

    And that's not a trick question, that's just something that I want to give everybody an opportunity to, you know, speak their peace.

    WITNESS 10: Urn, I just, urn, I just, uh, I feel sad about this whole situation that, urn, it had to end like this. And, urn, it's just, just hearing everybody's point of view, I feel that, urn, most people think that, urn, Mike basically f'd the police. They think the police are bad for them up until the time they're in need of the police.

    And, uh, I just wanted to come forward and tell it how I seen it because I feel like it's very rare that somebody's going to come forward and tell actually what happened.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Anything else you want to add? Anything else that is important?

    WITNESS 10: No. DETECTIVE Okay. You have anything? If there is nothing else, the time is 12:16 p.m. and this concludes the interview.

    (End of the recording.)

  • Does anybody need to hear anything over regarding the recorded statement of Witness Number 10? You have the transcripts that you can keep in your packet and, of course, at any time you want to rehear something, it is available to you.

    Now, we're going to play a clip from a video that was recorded by a cell phone. This video was obtained off of the internet. It is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 26 that I've marked and might be better for me to do it, I know where to cue it up to.

    As I said, this is not very long and actually, this clip appears twice on this disc. One clip includes the video, which I will describe it, is after the shooting.

    The other clip of this contains just the audio and it has just a plain view screen and all you are hearing is the audio. It is the same clip, it is just without the video. I don't know if after you see the video on if it would assist you to then just do the audio to just kind of close your eyes and try to listen because as I said, it is difficult to hear because voices, that has identified as own, is actually a background speaker in this clip. Can I black that screen while I'm trying to find it or no?

    since this is not very long. It probably is okay for us to just record. Nobody says any identifying information on the recording. And also it would probably be difficult for you to even to attempt to transcribe it. We don't have a transcript of this and I think one of the reasons, as you will see, it is very difficult to hear it, and I don't want to be in a position that I'm saying this is what we think is being said because it is your job to decide what you think is being said.

    And the entire clip is ten minutes long, however, I'm going to put the cursor forward to about a little past six minutes because that is the time when the conversation occurs that

    is talking. Again, this video in its entirety is ten minutes long. If you want to watch the entire video, you certainly can.

    I'm going to start the clip at exactly six minutes.

    (Clip is being played at this time.)

  • Now, there again, the entire clip is ten minutes. If you want to watch the whole clip or if you want to watch a certain part of it again or if you want to just do the audio portion and listen, it is up to you.

    Let's just hear the audio.

  • So you'd like to just hear the audio portion? You want me to start at six minutes or you want me to play the whole thing?

    I think it would be okay if you start it at the exact same timeframe.

    (playing of the audio recording.)

  • Start it at 5:59. You know, I'm not sure that that starts at the same place that I'm hearing this. Can I review this over the lunch hour and maybe we can, I don't want to represent to you that it starts at the same place because in my mind, I'm thinking it is not at the same place.

    So what's in the beginning of it, the rest of the six minutes?

  • If you want to watch it, I mean, I don't want to necessarily characterize it except to say it is all after the shooting and that it appears to be someone who is recording with a cell phone or handheld device and then you hear people in the crowd talking, you hear people near the camera talking, I don't know if it is the person who is holding the camera that is doing all the talking.

    Okay.

  • You can certainly watch the whole thing if you want. But before we listen to that audio portion, let me listen to it during the lunch hour and make sure. I don't want to start it at a different place and get you confused about that.

    So at this time then, I will just remove the disc and try to do this at the lunch hour when I have time to look at it.

    Okay. The next thing we are going to play for you is a disc that is marked Grand Jury Number 27, and it contains several clips which are media interviews that were done by , who you will recall testified yesterday, not yesterday, Tuesday.

    And we can go ahead, there is 33 minutes of video clips. I might speak during and in between them. Leave the recorder on.

    (Clips are being played) .

  • All right. That was a clip that was aired on August 13th, 2014 on KMOV.

    The next clip was aired August 13th, 2014 on CNN Tonight.

    (clip is being played.)

  • So the next clip is a continuation of that. Actually, it appears there is a total three clips of that interview on CNN.

    (clip is being played.)

  • Now, I'll play the actually, the third clip of the CNN interview, which on the disc is actually the fourth clip, but it is the third clip of the CNN interview.

    (clip is being played.)

  • I have stopped it after the interview concluded. The reporter's comments are not really relevant.

    I'll going to play a clip that aired on August 14th on MSNBC and on a program called last word and this interview is actually contained in three separate clips, so this is the first clip of that interview.

    (interview being played.)

  • So I'm now playing the second clip of that interview.

    (interview being played.)

  • I'm now going to play the last clip of that interview.

    (clip is being played.)

  • And as you can see on the screen, there is one clip remaining. I think I mentioned to you that that is actually reporter commentary about dissecting s story and they do play a couple of segments of that interview that you just watched, but it is all segments of the interview that you've already seen. So I don't think it is appropriate for you to, you know, the reporter's commentary is really not evidence and it shouldn't play into your decision, I'm not going to play the final clip that's on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 27, all right.

    Did anybody want to see any of these clips over again?

    This next interview is fairly short, so I thought maybe we would go ahead and listen to that and then if you want to take a break. Have you all ordered lunch? I'm going to pass around a transcript interview that was done on August 9th, 2014 by St. Louis County police detective is interviewing

    I'm going to go ahead and stop the audio recording in the grand jury while the audio interview is being played, and I've given the court reporter a copy of the transcript. So at this time let's pause the recording of the grand jury.

    (Audio recording is paused at this time and this is the audio recorded interview of

    DETECTIVE This is Detective with St. Louis county Police, Bureau Crimes Against Persons. I am on Canfield Drive in reference to a officer-involved shooting uh, in the City of Ferguson. It is 1:53 p.m. It's Saturday, August 9th.

    Urn, I'm here with, uh black female, date of birth (redacted) Address of

    (Redacted) . She has phone number of (redacted) .

    , are you aware this is being recorded?

    Yes. DETECTIVE You okay with that?

    I'm fine. DETECTIVE Okay. If you would, urn, just, cause you speak kind of soft, can you hold onto the recording for me?

    Yes. DETECTIVE And just kind of tell me, uh, what, if anything, you observed on Canfield today?

    Okay. I was coming down Canfield going south.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    I hear "urrrrr" sound, like the brakes stopping on the car.

    DETECTIVE So you heard tires squeal.

    Yeah, tires --tires squealing.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    I come closer and I see a guy being pulled through the window of the SUV of the St. Louis Ferguson.

    DETECTIVE Of the police vehicle?

    Yes, of the police vehicle. DETECTIVE So the Tahoe, Chevy Tahoe, Ferguson Chevy Tahoe right there?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Urn that's parked in the middle of street with the cones around it?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Urn, is that where the was at?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Positioned exactly?

    That's where it was. DETECTIVE Okay.

    It didn't move. DETECTIVE And where did you, you saw, what did you see there.

    I saw the police pulling a guy through the window and the guy trying to pull back.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So, urn, as you're approaching and you see, uh, the officer trying to pull, uh, the gentleman, uh, into the driver's area of the vehicle; is that correct?

    Yes. DETECTIVE And this --and this guy's pulling back?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Trying to pull away?

    Like they're wrestling through the window, trying to pull --

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Like tug of war. DETECTIVE All right. Okay. Were they, did you see anything that would've been fighting over or anything like that?

    No. DETECTIVE Okay.

    No. Then I saw, I here gunfire and I saw smoke coming out of the window of from the --

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    suv. DETECTIVE And and as we discussed before, you, urn, saw smoke?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. And how did you see the smoke? Was it directional like a cone or was it drifting out of the car?

    It was directional like a cone.

    DETECTIVE Directional. Okay. What direction was that?

    It was coming from the window of the car.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Like out of the driver's window--

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    of the car? DETECTIVE So that would've been, north, south, west?

    Yes. DETECTIVE So a westerly direction from the driver's side of the vehicle?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay.

    So after that, the kid, he gets away and he starts running.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So-(cid:173)

    Opposite way of the-(cid:173) DETECTIVE Is that hat his?

    Yes. DETECTIVE The Cardinals cap right by the cone?

    The red Cardinals caps is the --the guys.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And then each of these, uh l, slipper or sandals?

    Yes, those are his. He was running from the police officer.

    DETECTIVE Okay. He's running --he's running south away from you basically?

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE Okay.

    He lost his sandals running from the cop.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    The cop gets out of the SUV are he starts shooting at the guy as he's running way.

    DETECTIVE Okay. He's --he's shooting from next to the --

    He comes walking form like, he started walking down the street.

    DETECTIVE The officer did?

    Yeah, running down, yes, running down the street behind the kid shooting.

    DETECTIVE Was he running shooting?

    Yes. DETECTIVE The officer was running and shooting at the same time?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. Did you see anything in the guy's hand?

    No. DETECTIVE And you didn't see no weapons.

    No. DETECTIVE Okay. Urn, as the kids running, are you observing any instances of, that he's getting hit maybe?

    Yes, I saw like a, it looks like --

    DETECTIVE A jerking.

    Yes, a jerking in his body and he turns around puts his hands up.

    DETECTIVE Put his hands in the air?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Faced the officer?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay.

    And the officer walks up him and continues to just shoot, shoot him until he falls to the ground.

    DETECTIVE Continued to fire, even though his hands were up?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. What happened after that?

    After that the kid falls to the ground and two more officers pull up, Ferguson department, and all begin to take pictures of the guy just laying in the ground and they were standing around and everybody else just started coming out and everybody just started yelling at the cops. It's like, you're wrong and he had nothing.

    I called the, urn, Channel 2 news and Channel 4 news.

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh. Okay. So, urn, I'm sorry. So at no time you saw a weapon on this gentleman right here?

    Not at all. DETECTIVE Okay. All right. Is there anything that we haven't spoke about that you want to tell me about?

    No. DETECTIVE Okay. Do you feel like I've given you the opportunity to give, urn, your full story like you wanted to?

    Yes. DETECTIVE All right. We are going to conclude the interview. It is 1: 58, okay.

    (End of playing the interview.)

  • So I think I neglected to mention that that was a clip that is on file on a disc that is marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24 and it is the interview of

    So at this time, we have another interview of that is audio recorded that was done by the FBI. I was thinking that that's an hour long or so. So it is about ten after 11:00. Do you want to take a break, or you want to start it now and then break for lunch and then continue after lunch? The witness is supposed to be here at 12:30. I'll probably talk to him for a few minutes when he gets here. I planned it, I think you may be eating lunch so I would have a few minutes to talk to him in case he is running late.

    You want to start now? I just have to find it.

    I know I have used that exhibit before the Grand Jury Number 23, so I'm looking for it.

  • Okay. Lunch should be here around noon.

  • This is a disc that is marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 23. And it contains an audio interview of that was done by the FBI. We do not have a transcript of that, because it was done fairly recently and it has not been prepared.

    And we will pause the recording while the interview is being played.

  • Let me just real quick here look. So this is about an hour four minutes. It says, okay. So we will start this.

    Today is September 11th, 2014 the time is 3:11 p.m. In the room is?

    And her attorney. And I'm with the FBI and this is , she's with the Department of Justice and right over there

    with the attorney's office in St. Louis. I know your attorney has already spoken to you, we are going to talk to you today about what happened on August 9th of this year. So with that being said, I think would like to say an opening paragraph or two and then we will start with what you saw on that day.

    I'm actually going to do it. So and I are both federal prosecutors. I'm based in Washington D.C., he's based here in St. Louis. Obviously, we're with the FBI. We wanted to talk to you because we know that you are already met with the St. Louis County police detective, but we are doing our own individual investigations, that is why we want to meet with you and hear what you have to say, okay?

    Okay. So basically, as you know, everything is being recorded. So if you nod your head or shake your head and I will say is that a yes or no.

    Okay. That's just to get your answers out loud so when we listen to it afterwards, we don't have to guess what your reaction was, right?

    And if you don't understand a question that any of us ask you, please stop us and make us clarify because, you know, we intend to talk fast sometimes.

    Uh-huh. And sometimes we ask bad questions. We try not to, but if you answer we are going to assume that you understood. If at any point you get confused or --don't just guess, you were the one that was there.

    We are certainly not trying to suggest an answer. If you think we are looking for an answer, all we are looking for is the truth.

    So, urn, want to make sure that you feel comfortable in answering the questions and certainly feel free to correct us if we mischaracterize it, okay:

    Okay. And we tell this to all the witnesses, this is a federal investigation and if any witness lies to the FBI, anything that is material or important it is a crime, I like to make sure that everybody knows that.

    Okay. Urn, and also really important, we're not going to tell anybody what you told us, so we're not going to go to another witness and say, you know, said this or said that, just like we're not going to say to you, I know a witness told us something different or told us something the same.

    So it is really important for us to find out when you actually firsthand saw and heard. And we knew a lot went on, especially that day on August 9th.

    Okay, okay. And since that's normal and that's human nature.

    Uh-huh. Uh, but we just want to make sure that you are actually telling us what you know versus what you assume.

    Uh-huh. The example I like to give is, if you walk outside and you see that your driveway is wet, you go oh, it rained, right?

    Uh-huh. That's natural, right, you immediately think of rain.

    Uh-huh. And we also do the same with sprinklers on, right?

    Uh-huh. Instead of telling us it is rain, just tell us what you saw.

    Okay. If you don't know something or you can't remember something, that's a perfectly acceptable answer. A lot of times we like to ask details to see if we can trigger something.

    Uh-huh. So we can get more details because we weren't there.

    Uh-huh. So we may quiz you on some stuff. We're not trying to get an answer other than the truth. If you don't know, it's perfectly fine to say I don't know.

    Okay. You have a piece of the puzzle, as do a lot of different people. All we need from you is the truth. Basically, it doesn't involve you, it is not one person, it is a whole picture, okay?

    Uh-huh. Do you have any questions so far?

    I don't. Okay. So could you spell your name, please?

    And would you give me your date of birth, please?

    (Redacted) And your social security number?

    (Redacted) Where are your currently living?

    (Redacted) Okay. What is your phone number?

    (Redacted . Okay. I think that's all the background we need from you.

    So could you just tell us in your own words and from the beginning what happened that Saturday, August the 9th.

    Okay. As I was coming around the curve, I hear like tires squeaking, like "urrrr". And as I get up on the truck, I see them wrestling through the window. I tried to pull my phone out because it just didn't look normal for someone to be wrestling through a cop's window.

    So I saw them like pulling back and forth, like he was trying to pull out, the cop is pulling in. And when I tried to pull my phone out, the shot came out, so I like went to the left to try to get out of the way.

    As I'm going to the left, I see the kid, there ain't no way and that's when he takes off running.

    The cop follows him, shooting behind him, the kid's body jerks as if he was hit, he turns around and puts his hands up and the cop continued to fire until he goes down.

    Okay. Where were you coming around the corner, does this look familiar?

    Yes, I was coming from Florissant, which was coming from here. I was coming around this corner right here.

    Okay. You were approximately right here and where was the police officer.

    They were right here. Okay. I was back here whenever I heard tire squeaking, so I was

    Which direction was the car driving?

    The truck was driving going that way.

    Okay. So it was a truck. Yes. All right. And you said you heard the squeals of the tire and then what happened?

    That's whenever I came around the corner and I saw them wrestling through the window.

    Okay. So you came around this corner?

    Uh-huh. And you saw who wrestling through the window?

    Uh, I saw the officer and the kid wrestling through the window.

    All right. Who's the kid? Michael Brown. You know him because of the media?

    Yeah I didn't know him before, just the media.

    Okay. I've never seen him. So you say you saw Michael Brown and the police officer here?

    Right here, yeah. Okay. Tell me what happened?

    As I get up to here, I see them wrestling through the window and I try to take my phone out.

    Where is your phone. My phone was probably on my lap or something. I remember, because as a matter of fact, I had my phone in my hand. I was trying to call telling her I'm outside, I was going to pick her up.

    Okay. So I tried to put it on record and the shot came, so I came and I turned, made a lift right here.

    Uh-huh. And I pulled right into there.

    Uh-huh. And the kid yanked away as I was turning this way and he started running back there.

    Can you point on here where the truck was?

    The truck was right here. Okay. It was like catty-corner in the street.

    Okay. The kid was right there going through the window, this is the trunk, this is me, I came this way.

    Uh-huh. I made a left onto here, parked right there, he started running that away.

    Who is they? The officer and Michael Brown.

    Okay. Was there another person with Michael Brown? Sorry to keep interrupting you, was there another person with Michael Brown?

    Yeah, there was another person.

    Where was he? It was a car right behind him stopped, right behind the officer. I didn't see this car until I got right here and that's whenever I saw Dorian duck down on the side of that car.

    Okay. Do you know what kind of car that was?

    It was a white Monte Carlo. All right. What kind of car were you diving?

    I was driving a All right. So what did you see here at the vehicle, at the truck?

    I saw them wrestling through the window, the officer and Michael wrestling through the window.

    Uh-huh. What do you mean by that?

    It appears to me as Michael is pulling off and the officer is pulling in, kind of like a tug of war.

    Uh-huh. Did you see hands touching?

    I saw Michael's like pushing up against the thing and whenever he yanked off, I saw his hands go like that.

    Did you see the officers hands on Michael Brown at all.

    I couldn't see his hands, I just saw he kept trying to pull away, I saw Michael try to pull away.

    He had to be pulling away from something --

    Yeah. Do you know what he was trying to pull away from?

    I guess the officer, I can't say for sure like where the officer's hands was, but I did see them both pulling back and forth.

    Okay. So this is where I was when I came across this grass, that is whenever I saw his body jerk right up in here and that's when he turned around and put his hands up. But the cop still, he continued to walk up on him and shoot him.

    Okay. So after you saw, I'm going to call it an altercation, is that okay?

    Uh-huh. Here at the vehicle, you saw what happened, how did the officer get out, what did Michael Brown do?

    Okay. At this point whenever I was turning here, this is when Michael yanked away and went that way.

    How did you see that if you were --

    I was still turning. Just tell me what you saw and don't tell me what you assumed.

    I'll telling you what I saw. This is what I saw, his arm yank away. From that point whenever I was turning this way, I wasn't all the way over here at this point.

    Okay. This is what I saw with him right there as I come this way, that's whenever he was running that way, I didn't see the officer get out of the car, but I did see the kid get away and start running. Whenever I saw the officer again, he was coming back behind this way and he was shooting and the kid was probably up that way a little bit.

    Okay. And the officer was where again?

    He was coming out of here. Okay. Michael Brown was where?

    He was up running a little ways up that way.

    Okay. Do you remember how many shots?

    I don't. Okay. You just heard shots? I heard several shots. Did you see the officer fire his weapon?

    Yes. All right. And where was the officer when you saw this?

    The officer was outside the car walking up to Michael.

    Okay. What was Michael doing?

    He has his hands up at that time. The first time I saw his body jerk.

    Uh-huh. And then whenever the officer is walking up on him shooting, he was turned around with his hands up and he just went all the way down as the shots hit him.

    Uh, could you describe how he had his hand for the recording?

    Okay. He had them in the air like this, this way.

    Okay. Not quite 90 degrees, but hands even with his head, with his hands even with his head?

    Yeah, about up there. Did you hear the officer say anything, did you hear Michael Brown say anything?

    No, I didn't hear anything from either one of them.

    Okay. How many shots were fired total?

    I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. But it the multiple shots or one shot.

    Multiple. Multiple shots, okay. So let's start from the vehicle again, could you tell me one more time again what you saw?

    From the vehicle? Uh-huh. As I was pulling up, I saw them wrestling through the window.

    Uh-huh. Then the shot was fired from the car.

    Okay. How many shots? One shot is fired from the car.

    Do you have any idea where the shot went, if it actually hit someone?

    No, I don't. Okay. And that's when he yanked away and he started running and I was coming over here. I didn't see the officer getting out of the car, but I did see him running from, like away from the car towards Michael.

    Okay. And at any time did you not see something?

    I didn't see whenever the officer got out of the car, but I did see him by the time he got beyond his car here, right here.

    Okay, thank you. That was right here. Okay. Where were you at that time, were you inside your vehicle or did you get out?

    I got right out of my vehicle, I was parked right here.

    Okay. Where did you go? I went up to 's house. As I was walking up, that's whenever I seen him shooting the kid, going down with the shots.

    Okay. Where does live? She lives right here. You have your vehicle here? Uh-huh. And then you started walking towards s house here?

    Yeah. You said you were looking for your phone, you had your phone with you?

    Uh-huh. What were you doing with your phone while this is going on?

    Well, the first time I was trying to record when the shot came, and I came over here. By the time I was just holding my phone in my hand at that time. I wasn't doing anything with it by the time I came up to 's

    Okay. And then I went upstairs and called my fiancee.

    Okay. Who is your fiancee? Were you scared to get out of your vehicle?

    I was so shocked, I was so shocked, I was trying to see what was going on. So I was like, holy crap, what is going on. The kid was dead, I saw the blood. At first I was like, is he shooting rubber bullets? What is going on.

    So I was so shocked that I just got right out to try to see what was going on.

    Uh-huh. Why are you calling him a kid?

    Because I don't know him, I don't know him, no.

    I was just curious. I'm sorry. It is not like you're 50, you look very young.

    Yeah. Do you have any questions? Yeah. I just want more clarification of looking at the map.

    Uh-huh. When you are coming around the curve, that is when you hear the tires squealing; is that right.

    Uh-huh. That's yes, right? Yes, I'm sorry. That's fine. And at that point you don't see anything next to the car; is that correct?

    No, I don't. And when he came up on the car, you actually, did you stop your car when you came up to it?

    Yeah, I stopped. Okay. So were you facing the car?

    Yes. Okay, or the patrol vehicle? Yes, the patrol vehicle is like this way, I was coming this way.

    So you're showing you were literally opposite?

    Yes. Was there a car in front of you?

    No. Why did you stop your car? Because I saw the cop and the kid wrestling through the window, you don't see that every day.

    And what was your view of the police officer and Michael Brown at that point?

    My view was Michael like pulling out of the window and they were like a tug of war.

    So you were basically head on at this point initially?

    Yes. And you are still driving; is that right?

    No. You're sort of out of the car? Yeah. So you are head-on, so which is clearer to you, the passenger side or the driver's side or equally both?

    I say the driver's side because it was like, the car was like this way, but the SUV was like going this way, okay. This is the Chevy was like this and I was like this.

    Okay. And so when you describe what you saw specifically, you saw Michael Brown, he was standing outside the car?

    Yeah. Describe his body, how was his body situated?

    It was like, it took like pulling away like, you know. Like, you know how you push off of something, it was more like that.

    Where were his hands? At one point I saw his hand like pushing up against the car like coming off.

    Okay. You said both hands? Yeah, and then whenever I saw him yank away his hand went like that.

    He yanked away. And when you pulled up on them, Michael Brown was already by the car, correct?

    Uh-huh. I didn't see how the thing, the first beginning of it, I didn't see that.

    Okay. You didn't see anything of that leading up to it?

    No. By the time you pull up, you heard a shot already or no?

    No. Okay. So let's go, you describe Michael Brown had his hands on the outside of the car; is that right?

    Uh-huh. Is that yes? Yes. And is hands on the window sill of the car, on the door or the car?

    Like the side door. The driver's side door. Yeah. On the handle of the door, by the door handle or by the window?

    He had like this I can describe like the whole time because it was action at like, you know, I can't see every little step, but I did see him pushing off like, you know.

    While this is going on, you said you didn't see this every day, is that when you took out your phone?

    I had my phone in my hand. I was trying to get to record, that's when the shot came.

    So you got your phone? No, I'm trying to work the recorder.

    I'm trying to figure out if you were watching.

    No, I can't, you know, I have to push record on that phone. So I don't know every little thing, I was trying to do that sort of thing.

    That's only fair. I'm just trying to find out what you actually saw. Because you say you see something like that, there were times when you looked down, that's all I'm trying to establish.

    Yes. When you look down, is that when you heard the shot, is that right or no?

    No. Okay, explain it. I can explain like exactly whenever the shot came, whenever I was about to record, that's when I can't say anything. I saw the bullet.

    I'm trying to figure out what you were doing when the shot, when you heard the shot. Were you trying to record, were

    (inaudible)

    I was about to record, I just now heard the shot. I can't say I was looking right at it. I was looking at my phone to try to hit record and I heard a shot and said, oh, let me get out of the way. That's when I went to get out of the way. I saw the kid wrestling, pulling out to the side, I saw the kid run away.

    At that point you saw the kid wrestling, yank away after the shot; is that correct?

    Yes. As you were driving, did you look at Michael Brown at all?

    As I was driving? Yeah, as you are driving away, did you look over at the police officer and the car?

    No, I went straight to the

    (inaudible), that's whenever I got out. And I saw the officer come out, I saw Michael run.

    All right, let's go back to when you were driving to the parking lot, okay?

    Uh-huh. So from the time you heard the shot and you decided you wanted to get out of there, so you both (inaudible)

    Yes. During that point that you are driving to the parking lot, you were not looking at Michael Brown and the officer in the police vehicle; is that right?

    No, I was not. Okay. At any point up to that part, did you notice anything about Michael Brown or any injury of anybody at that point?

    No. Whenever I looked back up, that's whenever there was more shots coming, I saw his body jerk.

    Okay. You are pulling into the parking lot?

    Uh-huh. You pull into the parking lot, they are not in your vision; is that correct?

    The officer is still in my vision.

    Even as you are pulling into the parking lot?

    Yes, so, whenever I got right here, it is a parking lot. This is my parking spot right here. Right across this grass I can still see, that's when I coming this way, I did see him get out of that truck, I didn't see him coming this way.

    That's what I'm saying, there's a point in there where he is out of your vision as you are driving?

    Yes, I'm on the other side of his car and I can't see the driver's side door at that time.

    Okay. And you park your car in a parking space?

    Yeah. Where is the parking space relative to the street, is it parallel, perpendicular, are you facing the street?

    Yes, I am facing the street.

    Here is the parking lot? You pull like right up into here, I could still see right over here and then right out.

    At any point are you trying to get your phone out to record?

    I still have the phone ringing. And that time I wasn't trying to record anything and I was in shock.

    Okay. So you pull into the parking lot, what's the next thing you see when you pull into your space?

    When I pull into my space, I see the officer running behind shooting.

    Okay. You didn't see the officer out, correct?

    No. So you don't know what happened from there to the time you looked down at your phone initially to the time you pull into the spot, you heard the shot, you didn't see that because you were running into the spot; is that right?

    No, that's not what I'm saying.

    Okay. Put down my phone to record, I had to put down the phone at that time to hit the record, that's whenever I heard the shot come so. I get out of the way so I did see the kid yank like this.

    I'm sorry, you saw him yank hard?

    Yeah, and he run off. So you saw the kid run off? Yes. At that point the officer

    (inaudible) follow you; is that correct.

    I didn't see exactly when he got out of the car.

    So now you are in the parking lot and you parked, what's the next thing you see when you parked?

    I saw the officer running. Okay. You say you saw Michael Brown running also?

    Yes, I saw the officer running off shooting and I saw his body jerk.

    Okay. Can you describe anything about the manner in which Michael Brown was running at that point?

    What do you mean, like fast, slow?

    For example, did you see where his hand were as he was running?

    No, I can't say where his hand were, I just know he was running.

    Okay. Did you notice Michael Brown had any injuries to his body on him?

    No. Okay. And at this point, when you got out of your car, you park your car, do you hear any other shots?

    Yeah, multiple shots. Multiple shots. This is between the time, can you be more specific, between the time you pulled in and parked on this spot, at that time after the first shot, did you hear any shots?

    Yes. About how many. I can't say how many shots were fired.

    You got out of your car, is that what was next?

    Yeah. At that point is when you see the officer running; is that correct?

    Uh-huh. You say maybe the officer was firing shots?

    Yes. How do you know? I heard him firing shots. About how many? I don't know. I can't tell you exactly how many shots were fired at all. The only time I just remember that one shot came from the car, after that I can't say how many shots were fired.

    Okay. Can you say more than two or more than three?

    Yes, it was multiple. It was multiple times? Yes. Okay. And so at some point you said Michael Brown stops; is that correct?

    Yes. Can you describe what you saw, anything about him?

    I saw his body jerk, I saw him turn around and put his hands up. He looked like a big tall man, I didn't know he was a kid.

    Okay. When his body jerked, where were his hands?

    It was like oh, like, you know.

    And you saw his body jerking? Yeah. You are kind of demonstrating jerking forward?

    Yeah, from behind, yeah from behind jerking.

    Did you notice where his hands were?

    When. At that point whenever he jerked, did you notice his hands?

    That's when he went up and he turned around and he started, I can't say what he was doing in front of him, but at that time he was running. It was really fast though. He wasn't doing anything with his hand, like once his body jerked, it jerked, I can't say where.

    Okay. I was listening to you and you say his body jerk and he started turn around

    (inaudible)

    He started putting them up as he is turning around.

    Okay. What did the officer do? He continued to walk up on him and shoot until he goes down.

    Okay. He walked up to Michael Brown shooting, is what you are saying?

    He kept walking, he kept walking and shooting until Michael falls down. And he just walked up on him and just stop and shoot.

    So the whole time he just kept on shooting?

    Yes. So as you seem to remember it basically he just continued the shots basically

    (inaudible) .

    Yes. Were there any pauses in the shooting?

    Yes, there was a pause. When. I can't say exactly when. Okay so, has one shot and then a couple more shots and then more shots. I can't say like exactly this is happening when the pause happened. Like, I don't know, the shots were coming.

    So you are saying Michael Brown turned around, the officer just kind of kept on with it, he kept on shooting.

    Yes. And you're saying that the officer came up on Michael Brown and got closer and closer as he was shooting?

    Yes. How close did the officer get to Michael Brown?

    It was feet away, I can't say exactly how, like the exact measurement of it, but it was like feet away.

    Was it arm's lenth from each other?

    No. Further away? Yeah, further away. Distance to the wall? Further away from the wall. From me to the wall? Uh-huh. I'll say probably from me to the wall.

    I'm not good with feet or distances.

    Me either. 8 feet, 8 or 9 feet? I can't say anything about feet.

    Do you remember anything about the expression of Michael Brown's face was at that time?

    No. And so from what you are telling us is that Michael Brown got to that point, stopped, turned around and stayed there because the officer came up on him.

    Yes. All right. And this entire time you are watching this, you're outside of your car as you are walking to 's apartment?

    Yes. Do you have your phone in your hand?

    I know I have my phone in my hand.

    Were you trying to call at all while you are there?

    I was in shock, I wasn't calling anybody. First call I made was when I got to her.

    About the time you see Michael Brown go to the ground, you were getting out of your car and walking to her apartment; is that correct?

    Yes. Where were you when you heard the first shot?

    In the car. Where were you when you heard the second shot?

    When I was parking getting out of the car.

    Where were you when

    (inaudible)

    When I heard the last shot and I saw the kid go down I was about right here.

    Okay. You say these were like

    (inaudible) shots or they were regular just shots being fired as he was going?

    I would say they were regular shots as they were going. There was a pause probably, but it was like, I don't know like what you're asking, but they were shots.

    You heard a group of shots and then a pause and then a group and a pause?

    Yeah, yeah. You heard a shot, a shot, shot? Oh, no, there were groups and then pause groups, yeah.

    What about at the end you said the officer was walking up to him?

    He was just shooting, then he stopped, he was just shooting, then he stopped.

    Okay. Why did the officer stop shooting?

    I guess because he went down.

    You saw Michael Brown Yeah, I saw him like slap the ground.

    Slow down for a second. When you saw Michael turn around, he stayed where he was and the officer came up to him.

    Uh-huh. Is that correct? Yes. And then after that, the officer, urn, (inaudible)

    Yeah. If fact, I believe you said you saw the officer go and get on his radio; is that right?

    I didn't just say that. No, you didn't. In the past, is it true that you seen

    Yeah, I saw him touch his radio. I can't say what he said, but I did see him touch the radio and another officer immediately like pulled up right after.

    I want to be clear. Once Michael Brown is on the ground, Officer Wilson did not go over to Michael Brown's body; is that correct?

    No, he did not. In fact, you didn't see any officer go over to the (inaudible)

    No, I did not. Okay. And you were watching the whole time, correct?

    Uh-huh. That's a yes, right. Yes. And you saw Officer Wilson somehow either touch his radio, do something with his radio.

    Yes, he touched it. And this is right after Michael Brown went to the ground?

    Yes. And after that you went to s apartment, right?

    Uh-huh. Is that a yes? Yes, I'm sorry. When you went to s, what did you do when you went up there?

    She was standing on the porch and she had her phone out and she was crying. She was like, I just saw him shoot him. I said I know, I saw it too.

    And hen I called my fiancee and I told him what happened. He says you need to call somebody and tell them what you saw.

    And so who did you call? So I called the news. So your fiancee said you need to call someone and you call the news?

    Uh-huh. Why did you call the news? Because what I saw wasn't right.

    Why did you choose the news as opposed to anybody else, why did you choose the news?

    I think they should know what happened to this kid.

    Who else did you call? Urn, I think I called my

    (inaudible) I know I called Channel 2 and Channel 4, and I know I called him back.

    Okay. Did you talk with at the time?

    We didn't really talk about it, she just said, I just saw him shoot him. I said yeah, I saw it too. There is like pacing back and forth, like what the --just happened.

    Okay. I'm sorry, you did an interview with the St. Louis County Police Department?

    Yes. In those two hours, can you tell us what you were doing?

    In those two hours, I was standing up on the porch and looking around, like people start just coming around. Urn, we were just standing on the porch like looking around, what did just happen.

    Were people talking about what they saw?

    We were up on the balcony, and I can't say, and me and was on the balcony. One of the police, they might from the county police, it was the officer standing right there at the bottom of the steps. I said, yeah, I want to talk to somebody.

    They said hey, let me (inaudible) Right now I need you to stay up here so we can get this crowd under control.

    Did you talk to any of the other neighbors and talk about what you saw?

    No. Did you talk to at that time?

    Yeah. Did you know that there was another person out there?

    Uh-huh. On the street with Michael Brown; is that right?

    Yes. Did you know him? No. Did you know if knows him? No. Okay. Had you ever seen either one of them before?

    No. Did you see any other vehicle, you said that you saw this one that was behind the police vehicle, did you see any other vehicles?

    I saw a black vehicle and it was like coming up behind, I don't remember exactly where this vehicle came, right after the shooting where he backed up, it went through one of those driveways.

    Okay. It wasn't -- Yeah. Okay. I just want to go back to the part where you saw, this is just how the interview, when you first saw the police SUV. You had described before this tussle going on. Were you able to see what the officer was doing?

    I can't see inside the car, I can't see but I can't see fully back and forth.

    When you say tug of war that that's what (inaudible) what was the officer, based upon you saying tug of war, what you actually saw.

    It looked like he was pulling in and Michael was trying to pull out.

    Who was playing? The officer. Did you see the officer's hands?

    I can't, no, I can't say I saw his hands.

    What makes you, I'm not trying to, I just don't understand. What makes you think he was pulling him in?

    I saw the kid like pulling away. I saw like him try to pull him in and he actually pulled away, he's not just doing this.

    So you saw --is Michael Brown has two hands on the car, you saw him pushing back; is that right?

    Yes. Do you see, I mean, is it anybody --

    I know for a fact that whenever he was pulling away, he had his shirt like this. (inaudible) I can't say exactly where the officer's hands were, but like they were both pulling.

    So you are showing me when Michael Brown pulled away, (inaudible)

    Yeah, I saw his sleeve like pull, like he was pulling away.

    Did you see any hand pulling him?

    I don't remember seeing that.

    So from your vantage point, you say Michael with his hands on the outside of the car and you assume pushing away?

    Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. And you don't see the officer rose his hands anywhere?

    No, I can't remember seeing his hands.

    Is there any part of Michael Brown that is inside the vehicle?

    Another side of his head is in the window. They were wrestling back and forth throughout the whole thing.

    Just help me understand this. How is it, you said, his hands up (inaudible)

    What do you mean? Well, you told me when you saw him they were pulling away.

    They're pulling away, he had to be pulling away from something. Something was holding him through the window.

    Well, you showed that he was pushing off?

    Yeah. So how do you know he was being pulled in, though, if you can't see somebody pulling in. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand what you saw.

    Uh-huh. Someone pushed away -- Do you want me to say that I saw the cops hand pulling him in, no.

    I don't want you to say anything.

    No. Let me be very clear to you, I want you to say what you know happened and I'm trying to understand it.

    I'm telling you what I know happened. I don't get, okay, saying where were the officer's hands. I can't say where the officer's hands were, but I did see him pulling away. He is pulling away from something because something is pulling him back in. So I can't say exactly where those cop hands was, but I did see tug of war going on through this window.

    You didn't see the officer pulling him in, correct?

    I didn't see his hands pulling him in.

    Okay. Well, I think is confused because she said that his head was inside, his hands are pushing away, so how is his head inside and his hands are pushing away?

    I don't know exactly, like, I don't know.

    I mean, is it bent in the wind? Yeah, it is like a bend, like what I showed you the first time. It is like their pulling, he is pulling back.

    You are showing me pushing back, maybe we are using different words or the same thing. Are you assuming that somebody was pulling him in or can you tell me that somebody was pulling him in, you see what the difference is?

    Yeah, I see what you are saying. So I'm not assuming something.

    When you, yourself, could see him like that?

    Uh-huh. You see Michael Brown's two hands on the door; is that right?

    Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. Okay. And you see, now you see his head, is his head inside the window, outside the window?

    It was like, at the time I saw his head in the window, yes. It was like a pull back or something.

    Did his head go into the window so that it disappeared from your view?

    No, like no, it didn't disappear from my view.

    So, I mean, if it is any different than somebody coming over to the car and talking to them, is that what you are saying you saw?

    No, I saw like a pull, like a wrestle, I can't say I exactly saw where the cops hands were, but I did see a wrestle.

    I don't understand what wrestle means?

    Like a tussle back and forth.

    Let me ask you this. You see Michael's hands on the doors pushing against the door?

    Uh-huh. He is pushing himself away from it?

    Yes. Could you tell whether he was pushing himself away from the door or pushing on the door, was the door closed at the time?

    Yeah, the door was closed. Did you see the door open? No, they always had the door closed.

    Could you tell the difference whether he was pushing against the door to keep it closed or pushing himself away from the door, could you tell that?

    It was like he was pushing away from the door, like trying to pull off. Like the only time I saw like a tug on Michael is whenever his arm, he was trying to like yank away and like his shirt was like, you know.

    So when you are on the news you told, actually that his whole body stayed out of the vehicle the whole time that you saw him; is that right?

    Uh-huh. So no part of Michael Brown's body was in the vehicle from what you saw?

    No, like I saw them pulling back and forth. I never seen like his whole body be inside of his vehicle.

    Did you see anyone else, like someone walking by, anyone on foot that may have witnessed this?

    No, I don't remember seeing anyone else.

    Is that because you were so focused?

    Yeah, what was going on, so I can't say I seen anybody else.

    You can't say there was somebody else around?

    Yeah. We need to take a break, is that okay?

    Uh-huh. Do you mind if we leave the recording on or if we turn it off.

    You can leave it on.

  • It is 11:58 a.m. and I paused the recording of the FBI interview of

    at 40 minutes and 19 seconds because they actually are taking a break in the interview and the jurors thought this would be a time we would break for lunch. So at this time we are going to have a break for lunch and let me know how quickly you want to resume. I'll keep you posted on if the witness is here when he's supposed to be here.

    (Lunch recess)

  • It is approximately 12:49, we are still on September the 25th, 2014, and we were listening to an interview by the Federal Law Enforcement Department of

    We're going to conclude that interview and then after that, we do have a witness here. His name is We will talk to

    and then we will see where we are on time. Kathi will be joining us in a little bit, so we're at 4019 is where we stopped it and I'm going to resume that interview now.

    (Resuming the interview of . )

    We have some more questions, so we have a better understanding, okay?

    Okay. We are not trying to suggest anything.

    We started back at approximately 5041.

    Again, if there is anything mischaracterizing or misunderstanding, definitely help us, okay?

    Uh-huh. Where you parked your car, can you describe for us, I mean what you did, when you parked your car.

    I got right out of the car and I start walking towards s house to see what was going on.

    Sorry, you said you parked your car, got out, before you got out, did you take the keys out of the ignition?

    Uh-huh, yes. Did you grab anything, did you have any stuff with you, anything like.

    I just got out of my car and grabbed the keys and got right out.

    When you got right out, where did you go?

    I start walking towards house, cutting across the grass.

    Did you continue walking as you are looking at what is going on.

    Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. Okay. And did you start going up to, going up to s apartment while this is all going on?

    No, by the time I got right over here that is whenever, I got right to this point, that's whenever I saw he was going down, like whenever. Before I got to her first steps, he was already laying on the ground. I saw him next to the ground.

    Okay. Did you go down into the foyer while you were walking?

    No. Can you describe when you saw Michael first begin to turn around, can you describe in as much detail as you can, what he was doing? I know you said he was running.

    Yeah. But now and then. His body jerked. Okay. He was still faced like the opposite way of me, so I just saw his body jerk and then he stopped where he was and turned around and putting his hands up as he was turning.

    When he was running, do you know where his hands were.

    No. Okay. When he stopped, do you know where his hands were with his body (inaudible).

    Uh-huh. When his hand (inaudible). Whenever he, whenever he jerked, he was like, and then he just like this.

    (indicating)

    His hands starting coming up when he jerked, like when he jerked his hands starting coming up?

    Like, you know, if you jerk like that.

    You are showing almost involuntarily his hands jerk; is that correct?

    Yeah. I don't want to mischaracterize it, but based on what you are showing me happening, the body jerked, like body jerking, like his hands just kind of moved as part of the jerking?

    Yeah. Okay. As he jerked, his hands kind of flew up?

    Yeah, like that. Okay. Can you describe, did you see any sort of blood or injury at that point?

    I didn't, I couldn't see. I didn't see blood until when he laid there and started pouring from him. It didn't register to me that he was dead until I saw the blood. I didn't see any of that.

    As he was turning around, did he put his hands anywhere on himself?

    No. No? No. Did you notice anything about his hands or his arms?

    That they were, whenever he turned around, no. Only thing I notice that they were up in the air like he just went down like that, he was getting shot it was like huh, huh, huh and he fell to the ground.

    So you are saying, I wanted to see if I can characterize this correctly.

    With the jerking movement, as you just showed us, his hands kind of went up, that kind of involuntary jerking motion?

    Uh-huh. It was kind of all one motion as he turned around with his hands up and then fell to the ground; is that right?

    No. No, okay. So when he jerked that's when like whenever, that's what happened where his hands were at. I can't say where his hands was until I saw his jerk and that, that is when I saw like come up. It was involuntary because it was just like a reaction to a jerk. That is whenever he turned around and put his hands up like that.

    You show with his palms up, were you able to see his two palms?

    Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Okay. Was his arms and hands the same level that they were at when you first, when his arms first jerked?

    No, it was starting to go up.

    They started going up, you notice something about his palms, you were able to see them, correct?

    Uh-huh. Yes? Yes. Was there almost simultaneous as he turned around in that position, then the shots kept going and he started going to the ground?

    Uh-huh. They were like right behind each other.

    Right behind each other. Yeah. So like one big movement right, the jerking and the turning around and hold them up and he went to the ground.

    Yes. Was he already kind of going to the ground as his hands were up?

    Once he faced the officer, he started going down once he faced the officer and his hands went up, he just started going down to the ground as the shots was hitting him.

    So do you remember, okay, it was kind of one motion, one series of events.

    Yeah, it was. Okay. Just to be clear for the tape, hands up, you got them basically at shoulder level or your level, something like that?

    Yeah. Okay. How far did Michael go in this direction?

    About to right here where he fell.

    Okay. That's as far as he went where he turned and fell.

    Uh-huh. That's as far east on Canfield as he went?

    Yes. Okay. I'm fine. One thing that struck me earlier, you are talking about afterwards, after you went up on 's balcony and you talked to her for a short time and you said you called your fiancee; is that right?

    Yes. Was that still on the balcony there?

    Uh-huh. When you call your fiancee. Yes. Did you call the news from the balcony also?

    Yes. Was with you on the balcony at that time.

    Yes. At the time you made those calls?

    Uh-huh. Okay. Is there anything else you want us to know about this?

    No, that's all that I know. Is there anything that we didn't ask you that we should have asked you about?

    No, I don't think so. I can't think of anything.

    Is there anything that we mischaracterized or we misunderstood, I know we went over with you several times.

    No. I know we've asked a lot of detail here today, that's our job, okay. But you feel like basically we have been fair to you today and basically let you tell us what you know?

    I think we tried to make you say something you did want to say?

    I didn't get that part about what you asked me at the truck, did you see this and you asked me different ways.

    Okay. I'd like to clarify that. I don't want you to leave thinking we were trying to get you to say something you didn't want to or some misunderstanding.

    So tell me about the truck that you were just referring to tell me.

    When you asked me were they pulling, was it a tug of war or did you see the officer's hands. No, I didn't see the officer's hands, but you can tell when somebody is being pulled.

    Okay, that's fair. So you are saying that even though you didn't see what was pulling him, it is your perception that Michael Brown was being pulled?

    Yes. Do you know what part of him is being pulled?

    No, I don't. It looked like it was his shirt.

    You are talking about that is when he was jerking away, correct?

    Yes, I did see the shirt, like this part of the shirt being pulled.

    You are showing the sleeve part?

    Yeah, yeah, whenever he turned his arm, like turning off, he was trying to pull it out. (inaudible)

    His right sleeve? Yes. Okay. And so what about right before that, were you able to see him being pulled?

    Yeah, I didn't see exactly what was being pulled, but you can tell if somebody is being pulled without seeing what's pulling him.

    So your perception from your vantage point that Michael Brown is being pulled?

    Yes. You couldn't tell from what part of his body he was being pulled?

    No. And no part of his body, as far as you could tell, was inside the car?

    No, I can't see, like his hands is like okay, I can't see his hands went all the way into it, but it was just like, you know, like through the window like, like a little back and forth.

    Is Michael Brown's head in the window a little bit is what you are saying?

    Yeah, I can't say, like he didn't go all the way into like that, but it was like a back and forth thing right there through the window.

    Okay. You never saw Michael Brown's hands go inside the window?

    No, I didn't. I can't say that they didn't, but I didn't see them.

    Is there a point you didn't see the entire thing where it is possible it could have gone in the window, is that fair?

    Yes. But you didn't see everything that was going on there inside the vehicle?

    No, not before, no. I was looking at my phone.

    Right. Looking at your phone and parking as well.

    Yeah. So there were portions of this where you actually didn't have eyes on what was going on in street; is that fair?

    Yes. And after you parked your car, were there other times then, for example, as you are getting out of your car where you may not have had eyes on the street the entire time?

    No, wherever I got out of my car, I started walking right toward it, more like I saw it from whenever I saw the officer come from his car, I saw Michael going down.

    I'm talking about where you parked and were getting out.

    As I was getting out, I couldn't see on the other side of that car. I can't say how fast the officer got out of the car and, you know, exactly what he did on that side because I'm on this side, on the passenger side of the vehicle, not the driver's side.

    Have we clarified all of that now?

    Yes. You feel like we were trying to get you to say something that a you didn't want to say?

    No. We treated you fairly? Yes. All right. If at any point weeks, day, months whatever come up, you want to talk to us again and you think there is something we need to know, you want us to know, don't feel like this is one shot and that's it, okay?

    Uh-huh. You can always call the FBI, call you can have your lawyer call myself or , we are always open to new information from you or anybody else. We don't want you to feel like you lost your opportunity this is it, okay.

    Oh, that's fine, thank you. Thank you. We have to clarify that you drew on the map this is where Michael Brown last stood; is that correct?

    Uh-huh. Okay. Are you sure? The place where he last laid?

    Where he turned around, where he last was?

    This was his last place right there where he fell.

    I didn't want to put words in your mouth, I didn't see like you were understanding what I said so. I'm just going to say where Michael Brown last stood; is that correct.

    Uh-huh. That dot or this rectangle was the vehicle, the truck, the police truck?

    Uh-huh. Okay. Just going to say police vehicle. And this X was, do you remember?

    I don't remember why I made the X right there.

    I think this is what, where you said they were when you were getting out of the vehicle, does that sound correct?

    Are you sure? We can leave it blank.

    I don't remember why I made this.

    That's fine, we just won't identify it. Do you remember what this was?

    No. Okay. All right. So is this okay for me to put these two items.

    Yes. Okay. Could you sign and date this just anywhere, please?

    Okay. Do you have any questions for us?

    No, that's it. I'm going to stop the recording. The time is 4:16p.m.

    (End of he playing of the interview.)

  • That is the conclusion of the interview with the federal, during the federal investigation. Now it is approximately 1:06 p.m. for us our time. We are preparing for our next witness. Do you have any other announcement?

    So I will go get our next witness. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • I'm Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh is here, both with the prosecuting attorney's office, also all 12 jurors are here, the court reporter and we are now talking with

  • Could you introduce yourself and spell your name for everyone, please?

  • All right. And keep your voice up. You see a microphone, it is not going to make your voice louder, it is just recording, okay?

  • All right. you know why we are here?

  • This is concerning the Michael Brown shooting?

  • That occurred on August the 9th, 2014; is that correct?

  • It would have been what day, do you recall it happening?

  • That was on Saturday.

  • Saturday, okay. Now, you were in that area of the shooting of on the day that it occurred?

  • Where were you, tell us what happened that morning, how did you start your morning on August the 9th that Saturday?

  • Urn, I was coming from a young lady's house, coming from the back apartments, I think there's, I forgot the actual name it is, but coming from her house.

  • Speak up a little bit.

  • Coming from her house, you got the Canfield Apartments.

  • Now, the apartments

  • I mean Canfield Street, making right.

  • Okay. We have a map here, I don't know if it captures the area that you are discussing, but can you tell us looking at this map, and here is a pointer, you use it like this, push that button?

  • Which area can you tell from this map where the area is that the apartments are that you were coming from?

  • Where, this is West Florissant.

  • This is West Florissant, right?

  • Okay. And that's Canfield Drive?

  • This apartment is back over in that way.

  • Okay. So they're not actually on the map, but they're further east?

  • From the Canfield Green Apartments?

  • Yes, end up this is Canfield, yeah, making a right this way.

  • Okay. You are driving down Canfield Drive?

  • What kind of car are you in?

  • A Monte Carlo, two-door white Monte Carlo.

  • Who is driving? A

  • You are the passenger?

  • Anyone else in that two-door car?

  • Okay. So show us your pathway again?

  • So end up making a right here, so as we are coming down one of these side streets is like a dead end for right here, and the officer came off one of these streets right here, I think it might have been this one. (indicating)

  • When did you see the officer?

  • When we made a right coming down, he basically jumped in front of us.

  • The officer came out onto Canfield Drive?

  • Now, before you go further, do you recall approximately what time it was, what time of day?

  • Close to noon?

  • And when the officer, you say he jumped in front of you, was he like, did he have red lights and siren on or something appear to be happening?

  • So he came, he got up to the Canfield area, I mean, street or whatnot, he got a little further off going a little faster or whatever, so we coming in behind, that's when kind of, almost got right behind him because he had confronted Mike Brown and his friend Dorian.

  • Okay. For the record, we are using Grand Jury Exhibit 25 when we refer to the map and you are showing us the locations at what point on that map are you saying you guess he confronted Mike Brown and Dorian, where on the map?

  • It is like, let's see, it is somewhere right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. And why do you say you guess, do you know or you guess?

  • No, I'm saying it is right here.

  • So that's where --so that's where we are coming down. whatnot. So I guess he was, the police was about right here somewhere, talking to him or whatnot, they didn't comply.

  • How do you --what did you know, did you hear them talking?

  • No, I didn't hear nothing at all.

  • You just heard later about them not complying, is that what you are saying?

  • I'm saying it was the police stopped.

  • And said something and that's, Mike Brown kind of looked back and just both of them kept walking, him and Dorian. And that's when he came back real fast, Officer Wilson, and kind of catty-corner the car and almost hit Mike Brown, and jump back and that's when we were actually behind the police car, the Monte Carlo.

  • So where would you have been, the Monte Carlo?

  • It was like, I know we was like right here being by this sewer, like a little bit in front of, you know, the entrance right here.

  • Okay. And could you pass the car, the police truck, could you pass it?

  • Did you drive around it?

  • Okay. So you were blocked?

  • Basically, yes.

  • Behind the police car?

  • Yeah, and after that, after somehow I couldn't see because it's a tinted window on the back of the truck so, urn, somehow Mike Brown ended up by the window or whatnot.

  • Which window?

  • The police car.

  • Which window?

  • Driver's side.

  • Okay. Driver's side?

  • Or whatnot, so the only thing I could see is like under the car.

  • Let me ask you this, was someone with him, you did say Dorian was walking with him?

  • Where was Dorian at this time?

  • Urn, as he was at the window?

  • He was like, he was like, right towards, when he was looking at it, I guess I could show you all, I guess he is looking at them in the scuffling, he looked, he kind of tripped over his foot and just, you know, ran off whatever he seen because I couldn't see. I couldn't see and whatnot because the truck was, you know, catty-corner or whatnot.

    So from then I was just like seeing Mike Brown feet under the car.

  • What was his feet doing?

  • Just moving like, you know, back and forth and truck starts shaking like two or three different times.

  • What did it appear to you was going on?

  • A scuffle, a scuffle and whatnot.

    So from then after that happened I heard like a shot, just a shot, a small shot. It wasn't too loud, it just was a shot.

  • Could you tell where the shot was coming from?

  • In front of us.

  • Could you tell --

  • The police car.

  • It sounded like it was happening inside the car?

  • Well, I know he was outside the car and the police was inside the car, his feet was on the ground, Mr. Wilson's wasn't.

  • But the shot, where did it sound like it was coming from inside or outside the car?

  • Inside the car.

  • So from then I end up telling , this don't seem right. After I heard that first shot back up, back up and open your door, open my door, so we don't catch no shot or what else is going to go on.

  • So why did you want the doors open?

  • So we could duck.

  • You felt you could duck better if the door was open?

  • I see. So where does he back up from the police car?

  • And where was she when she backed up?

  • We're kind of like, like this is the sewer right here.

  • We wasn't nowhere like right here where we could turn in, you know, to be kind of like right here.

  • A little bit in front of the sewer or whatnot.

  • So from then, as soon as like we backed up, Mike Brown ran on her side, I meant the driver's side coming from the officer's car, like limping a little bit, gasping for breath.

  • Who was limping?

  • Mike Brown. So I think his slipper came off or something like that.

  • His shoe, his shoe he had on or something like that, I think it came off. But, urn, so that happened, that's when I heard a second shot. That's when we he started ducking, we end up ducking.

  • Well, let's see what better clarity, what was going on when you heard the second shot. So you heard the first shot in the car, what happened once you heard that first shot?

  • Back up and open the doors.

  • Okay. And what was happening?

  • About when we stopped, that's when Mike Brown was running around her side.

  • The side, the driver's side of the car? Of , yes. A

  • You saw him running?

  • Yeah, like, you know, like scooting off.

  • Not actually running, running, running, like scooting off, walking fast.

  • What was the police officer doing?

  • I couldn't see him still.

  • I just heard another shot.

  • You heard another shot?

  • While Mike Brown was kind of scooting or running?

  • Yeah, right.

  • Did he have his back to you at that time?

  • No, I was looking on his side, I was on in the passenger side, so I'm looking at his side.

  • So his back to the officer.

  • Let me ask the question again, his back was to the officer?

  • Okay. He was not facing the officer when you heard the second shot?

  • Okay, go ahead.

  • End up, you know, halfway ducking down. So as I'm ducking down, you know, catty-corner from my eye and I see Dorian. Like I don't know how he got from, you know, from over here, you know, going to the side of this street to being all the way over here, I was, I didn't see nothing, none of that.

    So the second shot I heard, I end up seeing, ducking down and seeing him like, who is this, you know, and I end up recognizing who it was.

  • Did you know Dorian before that day?

  • Did he say anything when he came around to the side of the car?