matter of seconds. Okay. Was it instantly or was there a slight pause? There was like a slight pause. I would say within two or three seconds, he was coming out. Okay. As Michael was running away, the other gentleman, Mike went one way, the other gentleman went the opposite direction. The other gentleman was Michael Brown's friend? Michael Brown's friend. Do you know his name? No, I don't, I don't know him. Okay. I've seen Michael Brown in the neighborhood, he passed me. Myself and the other lady, we always sit out. I'm collecting Social Security, she's retired, we just sit out and we talk, watch around. And I seen him walk past because he has a friend who stays in an apartment who is just beyond me. And he would always come by and say, how you doing, sir, how you doing, ma'am, how you all doing, you know, everything else. That's the only contact I had. Other times I may have seen him at the stores in the neighborhood. Okay. We are veering off a little bit. Just so I can ask you, you have a friend that, Michael Brown has a friend that lives in the apartment complex? I have no idea. I thought you just said. Oh, Michael Brown has a friend that stays, not the one that was with him, I don't know him. Him, I know nothing about. I understand that. I just ask you the friend that Michael Brown stays with in the apartment complex, do you know that friend's name? It is a female, no, I don't. Do you know in which building she lives in? Uh -- Here is a map if that helps. I believe it's, it is Okay. I think so. Do you know which level? No. Because she was on third floor. I think she moved down, I'm not sure. Okay. I can't say for certain. Okay. So back to what we were just talking about, the friend that Michael Brown was with that day, we'll just refer to him as the friend, would that be easier? Okay. Okay. You said Michael Brown took off running and there was a pause, police officer chased. What was that friend doing? After he ran, he disappeared, you couldn't see him. You don't know, we thought he had ran around to the side of the building, but someone is saying and other people was saying one of the reason that I heard and read that he was actually behind the other police truck that was there, he ran behind this other car. So not straight? So I didn't see him. I want to just know, just tell us initially you saw him with Michael Brown, correct? Right. I'm talking about the friend. Right. During the tussle that you described, where was the friend? Practically on the sidewalk. Okay. What was the friend doing? Just standing there watching what was going on between officer. From your vantage point where Michael Brown took off running, what did the friend do? He ran the opposite way. Did you see him again? No. So when the police officer took off running after Michael Brown, can you describe, were you able to see his gun? Let me stop you. Sure. He did not take off running after Michael. Okay. Excuse me. You okay? I'm having spasms, okay. This is not showing me anything, okay. If you don't like this map, we'll go with that one. All right. You are looking at, okay, all right. This is, I can't tell which one is which right here. If this doesn't help you, you can -- This is Canfield. Coming from West Florissant. Uh-huh. Coming around. This is the last driveway, okay. Okay. This is one right here. This driveway right here, okay, his friend went toward West Florissant. Michael ran towards the first driveway which is located where the memorial is on the post. The officer got out of the truck, came around to the back of the truck. Okay. Assumed his position like this. (indicating) And you are showing, was the gun out in the front of you? The gun was out like this, he had his hand out, he was in his position and he told, that was after the shot he got out, when he got shot he ran. By the time he got to the edge of the driveway after he crossed the sidewalk, he got on the black part of the driveway he stopped, Michael stopped. He was looking at hisself to see where he was hit, he was doing this, but he had stopped. The officer, at that time, he had come around to the back, Michael had his back turned to him. He told him stop, but he had already stopped. Michael turned around to face him and he had his hands shoulder high, just a little bit above his shoulders, but they were out away from his body. Okay. Let me just stop you for one second. So you are saying when the officer got out of the vehicle, you are saying he ran around his car and stopped and did not chase after Michael? No. And when Michael was running away, the officer was not shooting at him; is that correct? No, he didn't shoot then. Okay. He didn't fire, he already had fired one shot when he came around to the back and assumed the position. He yelled at him to stop, which Michael had already stopped, when Michael turned around, he told him again, stop. Okay. Michael took a step off the sidewalk. As soon as his foot hit the street, the officer let loose, wham, wham, wham. Okay. Right. So that initial shot though occurred inside the vehicle, correct? Correct. Okay. So you're saying that the next time any shots were fired was when Michael Brown was facing the officer; is that correct? Correct. And that was after the officer said stop? Right. And then he didn't shoot until Michael Brown made a movement? Made a movement. And the movement was totally opposite, correct? Right. He took a step to the street. It looked like he was giving up. Because that is what we were saying. He is giving up, he is giving up, you know, we're looking at him, he's giving up. But then as soon as he took a step, he got his foot in the street, he fired three shots. All right. Let me ask you about when you said he had his hand up. You had described previously that he was standing, as you said, his hands up around where the shoulders were, his palms were facing him. No, they were like this. Palms are facing the officer, they were like this. Indicating) Okay. You are the police officer, I turned around and I did like this. Okay. Show your palms are out? Right, right. Okay. Just so I can understand. From my understanding when the police were interviewed by the County Police, you described he kind of stopped and looked down to his right? When he stopped at this time, yes. He kind of, when he stepped off, he was still like this, but he had his hands up, he was still trying to find out where he was shot to me. And then tell me what makes you say that? Because he looked down to his side. Okay. You said his right side? Yeah, this side, yeah, looking on this right side and then he took a step out. And he had his hands up and as soon as he took that step and got to street, maybe about to, he is a big guy, he could have made it about three steps. Let me ask you this, when he's running, he stops in front of the driveway. Based upon your vantage point, you think that he stopped because he was looking at to see where he was shot? Yes. Okay. So when he did that, at that moment he stopped, where were his hands initially? Like this, he had them like this. He took them away from his body to see, he was like looking, he was looking. All right. That's a little bit different -- No, I told it before, I said when he stopped he was looking, he was like this, his hands were not steady like this, but he had them up to look at because he's a big guy, he had to look and see what was up. He was like moving his arms. Moving his arms to see what was going on. You have your palms sort of facing you like he was checking -- Right, he's checking out his own body. Okay. Okay. But when he turned to face the officer he was like this. He had his hands up, palm facing the officer like, okay, you got me. He had already told him to stop. All right. I need to just go back and try and (inaudible) a little bit. When he was checking out his body, were you able to see? I can't tell. Is there anything that stood out to you? Nothing stood out to me. Okay. You know. And so when he turned around and took that step is when he had his palms out? Right. So right after that when the officer started shooting, what did Michael Brown do? After he fired that first round, that first volley. He hit him, he started staggering, he first kind of went back like, pow, from the impact. Okay. And then he started staggering. And he was looking at the officer as he brought his head up, he looked down, oh, God, I've been shot. He looked up at the officer and he was looking at him and he was staggering, he was trying to stay on his feet. And myself and my family is telling him stop, dude, stop, stop, stop. Were you actually saying that out loud? Yes, he couldn't hear us, you know, from where we live. I know he couldn't hear you, but were you actually yelling it in hopes? Hoping that he would hear but he was staggering. We could see that he was staggering and he took about, I don't know, three or four more steps, but as he was taking his steps forward at that time, the officer took a few steps back, he was still in his spot. When Michael took the other steps and he was staggering, his body was like --can I stand up, please? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. He was standing up, he was shot. He was leaning like this, but his head was like this. And he was standing up staggering, he was trying to stay up on his feet like this. Okay. And he was definitely, we were yelling at him stop, stop, stop. My sister-in-law and said, oh, God, he's getting ready to kill him, he's getting ready to kill him. And no sooner than he said that, no sooner those words came out of their mouth, he was going down, it looks like he was going down. And he let off four more shots pow, pow, pow, pow. Okay. When the officer was shooting was when Michael Brown was coming towards him; is that right? Yeah, he was not charging him, he was defenseless, hands up, he was trying to stay on his feet and you could see that his knees was beginning to buckle, he was going down. When he shot him as he was going down, he hit face first, splat. Where were his arms when he fell to the ground? You are showing arms at either side of his head? When his body hit is when I ran up there his arm, one was like, I can't exactly tell on the body, one was like this when he hit down. I guess they moved when he hit the ground, but he was dead on the way down. Can you picture where his arms were on the ground? Kind of like. I don't want you to guess if you don't know. No, I can't say for sure. I'm trying to picture it, but to tell you the truth, I didn't really want to see it, you know, because when I ran up there and I saw who it was, I'm like, oh, my God. I just saw him earlier this morning. I'll get to that in a second, but let me just clarify. So you saw two additional, two volleys of shots -- Right. Correct? Right. Each time the officer was firing, Michael Brown was coming towards him? Yes. Okay. And at no time did Michael Brown say anything, correct? I could not tell or hear if he did say anything. You didn't hear him yell, don't shoot? No, I didn't. Were you able to hear the officer say stop? Oh, yeah, he was very loud. You didn't hear Michael Brown say anything like okay, okay, okay? No, I didn't hear that. Okay. Listen, I'm dealing with two very excited One is , and this is the first time seen anything like that and right here. Talking in your ear? Right. You were able to hear the officer? Oh, yeah. You didn't hear anything from Michael Brown? No. From your vantage point, you didn't see his mouth moving as though he was saying anything? My eyes was really focused on the officer because when he started moving, staggering forward, I wanted to see what he was getting read to do cause everybody was like, he is getting ready to kill him. Okay. So I wanted to see what he was getting ready to do, but Michael was staggering. You could see him clearly staggering, you know. And then when he started like he was going down, he fired again and that's when I said, oh, my God, he just killed him. Okay. So I just want to (inaudible), when this was all happening, your attention shifted to the officer, correct? I could still see Michael, I wanted to see what he was going to do. I had both of them in line of sight. Okay. Is it fair to say that Michael was more, just based on how you are describing it and the visual you just gave me, is it fair to say that Michael was more in your peripheral vision at that point? Both of them, both of them. From my vantage point, I can see both, okay. But to say, now I'm trying to make this as clear as I can. I can see both of them, but as Michael was staggering toward him, you know, trying to keep his balance, as he was moving forward, you could see, I could see the officer stepping back. When he took those steps back and Michael was staggering forward, I thought, oh, my God, that's when they said he is getting ready to shoot him. Sure enough, as soon they said that, he let loose. That's when you all are yelling stop, stop, stop, you wanted Michael to stop? Yeah, we wanted Michael to stop. They anticipated in a split second, , he's getting ready to kill him. Let me ask you this, On August 12th, I want to take you through what you said at that time. You said as he faces the officer, this is Detective asking you this, as he faces the officer, you say that his hands go up to a point where you said about to his shoulders almost. Right. That's when he has his palms sort of facing himself and he's looking over his body? When he got first shot and he got to the driveway, his hands were up facing himself because he was looking like at himself. Right, let me When he turned around. Uh-huh. He gave up, his hands was up to the shoulder, that's when he went up facing the officer. Okay. You went on to say back on August the 12th, Detective says, your arms are like palms up and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say? You say yeah, about close to his shoulder. Do you agree with that? Yeah, yes. With his palms facing towards himself like this? No, not turned, his hands are like this. No, I'm talking about -- They're not, excuse me, what you are saying, the hands are pointed toward him, they were not, I didn't say they were pointed toward him. I said his hands were like this. I described it. I didn't say they were pointed toward him. The only time I said his hands was anywhere near is when he first got shot. When he turned, they were this way. All right. Let me just take you through this, okay, and just see if you agree with this. On August 12th, Detective asked you, your arms are like palms up, and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say? You say, yeah, close to his shoulder, right? Uh-huh. And he asked you at somewhat of angle? You say at 35 to 45 degree angle from the body. About like this, and you have the palms up, right? Oh, yeah. And you say he is standing there, he looks, he looks down looking at his body. That's where you're saying you thought he was looking to see if he was shot? Right. Okay. And then after that, you go on to say that Detective asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. And you say, yeah. And Detective says hands, palms up, like at his rib cage. And you say, uh-huh. Does that sound right? Yeah. On basically when Michael Brown, this is what he asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage, and you say, yeah. Detective says hands, palms up, and you say uh-huh. Is that the way you recall it today? Yeah. And you go on to say, or Detective asked you, and he was looking down at his body at some point. You already told him he was looking down at his body. Detective says, he was looking down at his body at some point, and you say right, right, uh-huh. Okay. All right. Is that the way recall it? Yeah. Okay. Just to be clear too, we talked about when you thought that the officer must have said something to Michael Brown because Michael Brown then approached the vehicle, that's when you saw the tussle. So you actually saw Michael Brown come to the side of the vehicle, he approached the side of the vehicle? Right, he wasn't that far from me. Okay. His friend was still, when he looped around, Mike was still in the street, his friend had backed up. His friend had actually That's when he goes to the sidewalk? Yeah, he steps back, you know. Let me ask you this. had asked you this a little while ago about, and you sort of were very clear about where everyone was. But she had asked you about when the officer went after Michael, where was his gun at that time, or could you see it. And you corrected her and said, well, he just went to the back of the vehicle and assumed his stance. When he came out from around, he must of already pulled it out of his holster as he was coming around. And that's what I'm wondering. Could you see that, could you see where the gun was before he assumed his stance? It was in his hand and he brought it up. Okay. Before he brought it up in a stance, it was in his hand. It was in his hand. You are directing like out by itself? Right. He's pulling it out and as he came around so he could get a line sight on Michael, he whipped his hand up, gun is already in his hand, put it in his palm and aimed. Shortly after that he said stop? He said stop. When he said stop, Michael had already stopped. Uh-huh. When he turned around, he said stop again. When Michael took another step, he said stop. As he hit the street, after he said stop, he fired. That's when he started staggering around. You could tell he got hit the way his body jerked, okay. And as he was coming forward, trying to keep his balance, I guess keep from falling, he couldn't stand. He was trying to get hisself in a position, I believe, so that he could stand up. As he took those steps, the officer took about two, three steps back. As he did that at the same time, he yelled stop again. Michael was then, you could tell he was about ready to fall. At the angle of his body, torso practically straight, knees wobbly, but the torso was almost at a 45 degree angle, his hands are slowly coming down. His hands were coming down? Right, coming down. And he was bent toward the officer? He was bent toward the officer. Let me stop you there real quick. On August 12th, again, I want to take you back to what you said. Detective asked you where you describe exactly this point, Detective asked you, and where are his hands at this point. And you say, after he hit him with the three shots, they were down. Right. Detective says, okay, where at? You say, down beside his body like this. And then he says, you were basically putting your hands down at your side. And you said, yeah, they, like they were down. Right. Is that the way you recall it today? Right. That was after three shots? After the three shots. Because he was going down? Yeah, he was hit. As he was coming forward, he was trying to maintain his balance. And I know this, I've been shot, all right. I've been shot in the leg, so I know how it is to try to get your balance. And as I try to make this perfectly clear, his torso was straight, knees wobbly, but his upper torso was bent and he was still, kept his focus on the officer. So to be clear, from your vantage point, and I don't want you, I know you were shot so you know how it feels to be wobbly. From what you could actually see, Michael Brown was focused on the officer, correct? Uh-huh. He was bent forward, correct? Uh-huh. Is that yes? Yes. Okay. His arms were at his side at this point? Right, right. He was moving toward the officer? Right, very slowly and wobbly. And the officer had said stop? Right. At that point, Michael Brown hadn't stopped; is that correct? It looks like he was falling. He was staggering, he was staggering, trying to stay up. Okay. He was shot, he was hurt. He was trying to keep up on his feet. He wasn't going toward the officer to try to get to him. He was trying to stand up. He was trying to maintain hisself, but you could see his body was giving out. And the angle his body was, when he told him to stop that last time when he's looking at him and that's when the comments were made, he's getting ready to kill him. And no sooner than they said that he was going like this, his body was coming like this because he wasn't even looking and he fired. That's the only way he could have hit him in the head, the only way. He was already on his way down. The man was unarmed, you had already put three to four shots in his body. Granted, he is a big boy, but he was hurt, he was hurt. And this is the point right before that, that final shot you refer to -- Right. --trying to tell him to stop? Right, right. When he fired off that last volley, he hit down face first. I've got a very hysterical who has never seen anything like that in her life. My sister-in-law is going berserk. My brother and I look, we didn't even see the other officer, he had just moved away. Our focus, our focus is So when I got he got his wife and got them, took in the apartment, got them calmed down, I came back out, I left and I ran up the street because I wanted to see what happened, not what happened, but to see him, you know, just some visible reason I wanted to see the body. As I got there and close and I saw his face, I knew who it was. You talked before too about at that point people started coming out from everywhere? From everywhere. Can you tell us about that, what was going on at that time? They all, they running out, from my vantage point I can see every apartment on the opposite side of the street. The gentlemen who were working, my apartment, my bedroom, I can see them and the apartment that they are working on and I'm watching them. They are making a lot of noise, but anyway, from the front of my house, I couldn't see them. I knew they were there, I knew they were there. People on my side and my street, no one was there. The immediate apartment building where he was shot, I couldn't tell if anybody was up there. The apartments that are already in the back of the driveway where he was stopped at, where the memorial is, I didn't see anyone on this side of the street in my sight. The other part I can't see that. Just tell me about when you went out there, you know, you mention people coming out from sort of everywhere from the back of the complex. From the back of the complex, from everywhere. And you talk about August 12th, the one reason you came forward is in your own conscious you wanted to make sure the family got the truth about what really happened, that is why you decided to come forward? Yes. You were concerned about what other people were saying. What were you concerned about? You have to understand out there, they were looking for anything. Majority of them that came running out from the other sides and the back, those three or four gentlemen that run up, oh, he had his hands up like this. Like straight up in the air? Straight up in the air. With his palm facing the officer? Yeah, we were standing, no. The gentleman that was besides us, the workers, no. We knew that. And then you could see, you have to understand the mentality of some of these young guys. They have nothing to do. If they can latch onto something, they embellish it because they want something to do. This is something that give them, okay, now we have something to do to get into. I've lived out there off and on for almost years. Majority of them do not work. All they do is sit around and get high all day. That's it, and just talk stupid. And they had that there, when we was standing there, someone at the top of the hill, I had got back to my porch, someone at the top of the hill, my brother and my sister and I had back on the porch when I came back, fired off some shots. The officers heard it and they started running, okay. Everyone that was on the other side of the street started pointing, where did it come from, everybody started pointing. We had two people, never seen these people before in my life in the whole time I've been out there, came up, you all better not say nothing. You all snitching and all of this and that upset They said this to you They were talking. I was looking at the officers. was down there and I happen to turn when said like what, what. You know, I was like, wait a minute, I said turn around, everybody was still doing this. But she and this other girl had made a point to say something to To ? Right. About not snitching? About not snitching. Two females? Yeah, I'm like what? And I told the girls, I tell you what, you all used a very derogatory term, turn around. Everyone is pointing that way, you know. For three days I had to deal with because that shook to the core, just not use to anything like that. Can you explain this, what prompted these girls to come over to ? Because everybody was pointing, you know, when they heard the shot. I was pointing. Where did it come from. I said right up there. Because you were telling the police where the shot came from? Right, but the thing was, the whole crowd was pointing up to the top of the hill. And I'm like, wait a minute, they single out and wasn't even pointing. I understand, okay. Okay. So the thing is, I live there, when it comes to saying certain things, I've got to protect I don't care. I'm sorry that happened to Michael Brown, I'm sorry for his family's loss, but I have a that's number one. I don't care about nothing. I really wasn't going to say anything. I really wasn't because I got to protect and scared, was scared for three weeks, she was scared. Let me ask you this, before whenever we was talking about people coming out and hands up in the air, you said there were workers nearby who were saying hands in the air? No, no, no, they didn't say that. What did they say? They said the same thing I said and my brother did. His arms were shoulder length, just above his shoulders. Can you describe these workers? They working, they are plumbing, some plumbers. What they look like physically? Younger, white hair gentleman and -- Both white? Uh-huh. But they were actually there with you correcting all of these other younger people?