There is no conversation during this break, so I'm going to try to fast forward it, it is not long.
All right. , I don't think we have much. We don't want to take up a lot of more of your time. We just have a few more questions for you, okay.
My understanding is before we took the break, you talk about one concern you had, obviously, after this shooting occurred, people coming out and saying things that were not true based on what you saw, correct?
Yes. One of those things these young men coming out saying that Michael Brown had his hands all the way up in the air like surrendering at the time that the shooting was going on; is that correct?
Right. You didn't see that? I did not see that. Okay. I just want to clarify that. If I could, I referred you to some of your statement on August 12th and I just want to make sure that I understand your statement then and now, okay. And if you like, I have another copy here, you can refer to if you want to or I can read you these portions, is that fine?
That's fine. Okay. At the bottom of page seven it said, you are referring to Michael Brown, you said that he had like one foot on the grass and one foot on the driveway, which you told us today. And then he turned around and he was like this. So that is why people thought he raised his hands, and I think you are talking there about people claiming that he had his hands raised. You said he did something like this, is that what you are referring to him looking at his body?
Looking at his body. And I stated there they embellish, they embellish.
Okay. He had them up, to make it clearer that he was giving up, they went from one, which is what I saw to something that they probably, they assumed he did and stuck them straight up in the air.
Right, okay. Okay. And so when you were demonstrating that he turned around and he had his hands like this, that is why people thought he raised his hands, you're talking about when he was looking at himself to try to determine whether he was injured?
Right. Okay. And you said you went on page eight, you said he looked down and then he did this, and he looked at the officer and he walked and he took about three to five steps. He hit him again, pow, pow, pow. So you were demonstrating there again and then as you went on, Detective
made an effort to kind of narrate the way you were demonstrating on the tape, do you recall that? Back on August 12th, when you were demonstrating for him he was kind of narrating back to you so it would show up on the tape, do you recall that?
I believe so. Okay. On page 17 of your statement you said as he faces the officer, strike that.
Detective asked you as he faces the officer. You say, uh-huh. You say that his hands go up to a point. Where? And you say about to his shoulders almost.
And then you go on to page 18, and you say like this. And Detective says, kind of raised? And you say he had his hands up like this.
And, of course, you can't see that on the tape so the detective narrates and he says, your arms are like palms up, and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say?
You say, yeah, about close to his shoulder, yes, uh-huh.
Not in the position that you got.
Okay. When I said it, I said like this, not like this. They were close to the shoulder, yeah, about shoulder height.
About shoulder height? About shoulder height. With palms up? His hands were out, his arms out away from the body, not like this. His were out like this. Away, they are away from his body.
Okay. Not like this, not like this, not like this, they are away from his body. This is my shoulder, this is exactly how I showed him.
Okay. With the palms up? Palms are up. All right. Nothing, I got nothing, I'm giving up.
Okay. You say that they are about close to his shoulder and Detective says they are at about somewhat of an angle. And you say, what would you say, a 35 or 45 degree angle from the body.
And you go on to say on page 18, he's standing there and he's looking, he's looking down at his body. And he looks up at the officer and you say, he looks up at the officer and by this time he was standing facing him after he turned around in this position.
On page 19 you say, Detective asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. So now his arms are further down, his hands are at his rib cage?
After the shots. Okay. Someone left out it was after the shots.
I just want to make sure. The first volley of shots? After the first volley of shots, his arms came down because he was staggering. Like he was coming, as he got hit like, oh, shoot, he was staggering around, all right.
They had to come down a little bit, they were coming down. Like I said, when they weren't at his body, I didn't say they were next to his body. He asked me a question, I demonstrated and he said something that his narration is not what I showed, okay.
The narration is not? Whatever he wrote, I don't know, he just stated, yes, but his depiction of what I said of what I showed him is incorrect.
Let me just finish running through it, okay, and we can talk about it.
Okay. Bottom of page 19, Detective says, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. And you say, yeah.
And Detective says, hands, palms up, and so they're at his rib cage, palms up.
And then you say well, they weren't up against his rib cage, it was out because he was looking down, slightly away from his body.
Uh-huh. And Detective says that he was looking down at his body at some point. And you say, right, right, uh-huh.
And then you go on to say on page 20. Detective says, is anybody saying anything at this point?
And you say the officer as he raised his head, he told him to stop. As Michael Brown raised his head, the officer told hold to stop; is that right?
Right. And he says, as Michael Brown raises his head? And you said, as he raises his head, he says stop right there. He asked you, the officer says this? And your response was, yeah, he did say stop. And when he left from that fixed spot, then he was walking toward him.
And he asked you, towards the officer? And you say, towards the officer. When he, as soon as he put his foot on the street, he hit him three times.
And he asked you like, how many steps do you think he took before the officer fired? He said, big boy, he didn't take that many steps, I really couldn't count, yeah.
And so that's the first volley that he has his hands down near his ribs at the time of the first volley?
Right. Okay. I just wanted to make sure of that. That's why I wanted to ask you about this, sir. You know, there were three or four times where Detective , or you went back to when Michael Brown turned around and where his hands were. And on August 12th, I mean, there wasn't even any mention with him having his hands up with his palms facing the officer or all the way up.
I didn't say, when he turned, his hands was up, he was looking down to see where he was hit.
Uh-huh. His back was turned like this. As he was turning around, still looking, when he faced the officer, there they were.
Above his shoulders now? No, they are right by his shoulders, right by his shoulders.
On the 12th you only describe him as having his palms up toward the sky, right?
No, I did not say that they were pointing up. I said, his hands were up like this. I didn't state palms towards the sky.
All right. If you go say that, no, no, no, no, I never said pointed up.
This isn't something he wrote.
I didn't say pointed up toward the sky.
Detective asked you, your arms are like palms up and hands
Palms up? --with hands or fingers are shoulder height?
Isn't this up? Palms up, right? Is this up? I've got them down like this now, this is my depiction of up, not like this, this is my depiction.
All right. One thing that concerned me though is that people are coming forward and saying that he had his hands up.
Above his head. Above his head. Like this, all the way up. All right. He didn't. But consistently as it is described on August 12th, you have your palms up, right? And not facing towards the officer, but palms up, correct?
Right. When he turned to face the officer, his hands were in this position.
Okay. With his palms facing out, sir, or were the palms facing up?
This is what I consider up. So you consider this up? We need to be able to describe this for the tape, that's
This is facing forward, to clarify?
Well, he was facing up then facing forward.
Okay. Not like this. They were facing him, hands u like this is my hands palms facing the officer they weren't like this pointed towards the sky. They were pointed toward him.
That's what I wanted to ask you is because on August 12th, I mean, you never said anything at any time about his palms actually facing the officer.
I said his hands were up. I never said his palms were facing the sky. I said his hands were up, about shoulder length, arms out away from the body, that's what I said. I'm going to stick with that because that's what I saw.
Before the first volley though, his hands were coming down towards his rib cage?
Yeah, he was looking for them, he's still looking like. He's searching to see where he was shot. His arms were like this.
All right. Now you have your palms sort of facing --
Right, like this. He is searching his body and looking at his arms and everything to see where he was shot.
All right. When he turned around and faced the officer, I'm going to say it again, this is what I saw. His hands was up shoulder length, palms facing the officer, not up toward the sky. That is my definition of palm, hands up, okay.
Now, when the people down the street demonstrate they say hands up, they are like this. Not like that, but like this.
Hands straight up in the air?
Right. And that didn't happen? No. And just to clarify there, you were then demonstrating that after he turned around, his hands come back down towards his rib cage and you were demonstrating, I want to make sure this is clear for the tape. If you don't agree with what I say, correct me, and I know that you will.
Uh-huh. When his hands come back down, you're demonstrating that his palms are then sort of facing towards himself as he is looking at his body seeing if he is injured?
Right, still looking, he's looking again.
That was immediately before that first volley of shots?
Right. And that was at the time that the Officer Wilson was staying stop.
He had already stopped. He was looking, he was turning around, still looking. The officer said stop, he was turning. Okay. He's doing this, my back is to the officer. He is looking at his body like this. And just as he started turning, the officer said stop and he was still looking.
And then he looked up, and when he was caught looking at the officer, his arm proceeded to go out like this. Palms away from, facing the officer, arms away from the body, palms facing in I give up stance, I give up.
The officer again says stop. He wasn't moving, he took a step up. He stepped out on the street, his hands were still in the exact same position, palms facing up, arms away from the body and he shot him.
Now, you just said though that before he shot, before that volley, his hands had come back down towards the rib cage.
He came down, right. He still turned around before the shots, he looked up and as he faced the officer, his hands went up. He was still doing this as he was turning, looking at hisself. He was checking his body out to see what was going on it.
As he turned, I'm looking, I'm turning, I'm looking, his hands like this.
You have your hands and your arms --
Right, like this. It was away from the body, palms are facing like this.
Palms are facing towards his own body?
Okay. I'm looking up, I see you, you're the officer. His arms went up. That's when I demonstrated to him as I was standing there, okay.
Now, he asked me a question, yes. Hands were up, that's it. This is what I say hands were up. Not this. Every depiction of everything that these people are doing out in the street so far, photographs and T-shirts, hands up. Not palms up, hands up.
The hands straight up. Right. That's what they are saying. My definition what I saw his hands were up like this, same way.
Shoulder height? But only they were here. All right. But if I understand correctly, what you said today and what you said on August 12th is, he then takes a step or two forward off that curb.
Uh-huh. The officer was saying stop again.
Uh-huh. And at the time of that first volley, his hands had come back down towards his rib cage where again he is looking to see if he had been shot.
I have to say he already had them down. As he turned, he started to face the officer, his hands were up. They didn't come back down again until after the volley was fired.
The first volley? The first volley. I know we went over that at length. So now, so tell me (inaudible) if so he's running away, he stops.
Uh-huh. I'm looking around, seeing what's going on. He turns over this shoulder?
No, turn your back, you are looking at yourself.
I'm looking at myself, okay. All right. Now slowly turn to me during the same thing.
Over this shoulder? Whatever. And then as you turn and you turn around and face me, then your hands go like this.
I go like this. A round of shots go off, his hands are still here.
His hands are here and then he steps forward, stop.
As he's turning around, you said going like this, does he take a step forward?
As he did that, he took a step forward, he said stop, but his hands was up by the time he said stop.
Stop. He took a step, he was out in the street. When his foot hit the street, bam, bam, bam.
So that's the first. So then where do his hands go?
He is like this, he is like this, they moving down.
He started doing this? He didn't really tell, but he got hit.
You show it was kind of like a round.
It was like, oh, and then he stopped. And then he was staggering to stay on his feet, I'm staggering to stay on my feet, you're the officer.
Yes. I'm staggering to stay on my feet and then I raise up like this, my hands are still in this position.
Okay. All right. I'm staggering, I'm like this, I'm falling forward, I'm just staggering towards you, I'm coming towards you.
Okay. He takes three steps back as he started staggering. He's still in the position. When he started staggering forward, he let loose again.
But he is staggering forward. That's how he was. He was barely up. He was trying to keep focus on the officer.
When you say he fell, he didn't hit his knees, he fell face first.
No, face first. The whole time he never moved his hands down like this?
They were coming down as he was falling.
His hands could have been at his side when he fell?
It could have been. Okay. Let me ask you one more time, they weren't
They weren't up under his body.
You say on August 12th, you said Michael Brown standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage or Detective says that and you say, yeah. And he says, hands, palm up and you say uh-huh.
And he was looking, he says he was looking down at his body at some point and you say, right, right.
You said the officer as he raised his head he told him to stop. He asked you, as Michael Brown raised his head. You say as he raises his head, he says stop right there. You say the officer said this. And you say, yeah, he did say stop and he left from that big spot that he was walking towards him.
And he asked you, towards the officer? And you say, toward the officer when he, as soon as he put his foot on the street, he hit him three times.
How many steps do you think he took before the officer fired? You told him you didn't count it.
So what you indicated there was at the time he takes the steps toward the officer, and the officer says stop right there, and then fires that first volley, you say that just before that, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage, hands, palms up. So this is while he is looking?
They are about like this. Yeah, but they're not, they are like this, they are up.
That's fine. On August 12th you said that at the time --
Right. --the first volley happened, he was facing the officer with his hands at his rib cage hands, palms up. Is that accurate? Is that accurate what you said?
Yes, uh-huh. And then that's the first volley of shots?
First volley. Okay, I think I understand. Hands up, no matter how you say it, hands up.
At his rib cage. Right, about right in here. He's a big boy.
Right. All right. He had definitely given up.
The hands are at his rib cage at the time of the first volley of shots?
Right. And with his hands, with his hands --
Away from his rib cage, away. Not at his rib cage, away, his arms are still extended.
Okay. So you have your hands kind of out by your sides now.
Is this my rib cage? I'm just trying to understand for the tape. Your hands are now, they are lower now, hands down by the side.
All right. (inaudible) The ribs.
Is it fair to say that at the time of that first volley, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer, with his hands at his rib cage, hands, palms up. Is that yes?
I don't like the phrase palms up because when you say palms up, I'm saying his hands are like this.
all I'm doing is asking about your statement on August 12th.
Okay. I didn't say palms up. Hands up. I never said palms up.
Okay. Well, repeatedly on August 12th it was palms up.
No, I said hands up, I never said palms up.
All right, that's fine. I said hands. I don't think we have anything else. I just wanted to clarify that and make sure what we have here, but what you've indicated though is what you said on August 12th was accurate and that is at the time of the first volley he had his hands at his rib cage; is that right?
Yes. Okay. Okay. So the interview is completed 11 (inaudible) .