The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good afternoon. For the record, I'm Kathi Alizadeh with the Prosecutor's Office. Also present is Sheila Whirley with the Prosecutor's Office, and all 12 jurors are present today and as well as the court reporter who is taking down everything that's being said as well as audio recording the proceedings that are going on this afternoon.

    As you can tell, we've kind of rearranged. We're trying to figure out how to best work the room with the equipment that we have.

    As you can see this screen kind of moves. Do you see the wind, the air blowing on it? It is blowing on the screen, but not on you, unfortunately. So we're going to try this out.

    If this is too annoying, we'll next time try something else out, but this is a bigger screen and we thought maybe it would be easier for everybody to see it. If everybody gets car sick because pictures are kind of wiggling on there, we will figure something out.

    Also, and we have some additional fans, I'm going to try to bring another fan in tomorrow to make it a little more comfortable. I'm doing the best I can as far as the heating and cooling.

    So my understanding that you all are going to be able to be seated today from 1:00 to 5:00; is that correct? And so for today we've scheduled two witnesses. The first witness is here and it will be another crime scene detective.

    His name is Detective And then the second witness that's going to testify is the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy, his name is Dr. and because of his schedule, I'm going to tell Dr. probably isn't going to be here until two, he's going to get here as soon as he can.

    If we're not done with Detective we are just going to interrupt his testimony because he can very easily come back on another day. It is hard for me to get the doctor here. He is going to be going out of town, so we might have to interrupt Detective and bring him back to finish up with whatever questions or additional we have with him, okay?

    So with that being said. DETECTIVE of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Can you start out by stating your name and spelling it so the court reporter can put it in the record? A

  • And how are you employed?

  • I'm a police officer.

  • How long have you been a police officer?

  • Okay. Now, Detective you are kind of a soft spoken person a little bit. I want to make sure that everybody back here can hear him and if you cannot hear him, please raise your hand and let us know if you can't hear him.

    I don't think the microphone amplifies, it is recording actually. So you probably just have to keep your voice up a little bit.

    What do you do, what department do you work for?

  • For the past 22 years I've been with St. Louis County Police Department.

  • And currently, what is your job assignment with the St. Louis County Police Department?

  • For the past 14 years I'm a crime scene detective.

  • Now, we've already heard from a Detective about what crime scene detectives do. Would that be similar to what you do with your job responsibilities?

  • Are you a training officer for crime scene detectives?

  • Yes, both in division patrol and also the crime scene unit. For the past 27 years, I've been a field training instructor.

    I also teach the basic and advance crime scene schools at our police academy and I also lecture at four area schools and universities.

  • And is there a board certification for crime scene investigators?

  • Yes, I hold currently the highest certification level that's possible through the International Association of Identification. I'm a Board Certified Senior Crime Scene Analyst.

  • Were you working then as a crime scene investigator for St. Louis County on August 9th of this year?

  • And did you receive a call sometime in the early afternoon of that day to respond regarding a police involved shooting?

  • About what time did you get that call?

  • Uh, about 1:00 p.m. I was notified at home by my supervisor to respond to our office, which is in north county, to retrieve a crime scene van and then contact one of our crimes against person detectives at Christian Northwest Hospital.

  • So did you go from your home to the office to pick up a crime scene van?

  • Now, we've also heard Detective talk about his crime scene van, were you in your separation van?

  • And is your van outfitted or equipped with basically the same things that Detective van would have been equipped with?

  • Exactly the same thing, yes.

  • And so about what time did you arrive at your office in north county?

  • Probably about 2:00p.m.

  • And then after retrieving the crime scene van, did you go directly to Christian Northwest?

  • I did, I arrived about 2:20p.m.

  • And did you make contact with a detective, now you say crimes against person, are you all familiar with the bureau in St. Louis County? The detective bureau is divided up into separate distinct units, crimes against persons is a unit that deals with, obviously, crimes against persons, but it would be homicides, assaults, rapes and so forth.

    So Detective when you got to the hospital, who did you contact?

  • One of our detectives by the name of Q

  • I'm sorry, Mr. Wilson was there, the assist chief of Ferguson Police Department and an attorney for the paternal order of police for Mr. Wilson.

  • Now, you and I met yesterday and talked about your testimony and we went over things because I don't have a report from you, is that fair to say?

  • And so when we talked about this, did I talk to you about the fact

    the police officer who is involved in the shooting, correct?

  • If at all possible, would that be okay?

  • So when you arrived at Christian Northwest, Detective was there?

  • Darren Wilson was there with an attorney?

  • And who else was there?

  • The assistant chief of Ferguson Police Department,

  • Did you have a conversation with Detective about what had happened?

  • He gave me an overview, yes.

  • What did you understand your role was in responding to Christian Northwest Hospital?

  • Based on the information that I received, I was to document visible injuries or complaint sites of injury on Darren Wilson. We were to document his clothing. I was going to seize his clothing and also the weapon that he carried that day.

    At some point in time I was also tasked with the processing of the Ferguson police vehicle, which was a fully marked Tahoe.

  • So, Detective you said you were also then tasked with processing the vehicle, the fully marked Ferguson police car, which was a


  • Tahoe, okay. And so about what time did you arrive at the hospital?

  • And where was Darren Wilson?

  • He was in the ER room.

  • And did you have a conversation, did you introduce yourself to him?

  • Were you dressed similarly to how you are today?

  • No, ma'am. I was in my normal daily uniform, which consist of a polo shirt and what we refer to as BTU pants, they are cargo. The rest of my accouterments, department issue badge, obviously my side arm, handcuffs, magazine holder, and then on the polo shirt itself it is marked St. Louis County Police Department with our badge, Crimes Against Unit and on the back is pretty much glow in the dark letters that says St. Louis County Police Department.

  • Have you met Darren Wilson before this date?

  • And so when you saw him in the emergency room, how was he dressed?

  • He had his department issued Navy blue uniform pants on, his boots, but he was wearing a T-shirt. He was not carrying a sidearm or his duty leather and he did not have his uniform shirt on.

  • Did you tell him what you were there for?

  • And did you ask him any questions that would assist you in knowing what to photograph?

  • I asked him what areas hurt other than what I was seeing. He went through several sites that he complained of injuries. I retrieved the ER charge nurse to make sure that I wasn't missing anything as far as the ER staff doing their initial assessment of Darren Wilson.

  • So you spoke with the charge nurse, do you recall his name?

  • No, I do not.

  • Did he indicate to you that there were additional injuries that you did not assess or not see?

  • No, we walked through with Darren Wilson his injury complaint sites, consisting of mainly his facial area, the back of his neck and he said his head hurt.

  • Did you photograph the areas that he indicated hurt?

  • Now, we also heard Detective yesterday, not yesterday, I keep saying yesterday, previously, about when he photographs crime scenes, are you all instructed similarly that you would have, I guess, a procedure that you follow in how you do photographs?

  • Correct. There's a standard format that we teach in the crime scene school and we also teach during our field training program.

    There's a normal sequencing event. In this case you take overall pictures, you take what's called midrange pictures to tie in that location to something else that's recognizable, you will take a specific image and in these kind of circumstances you'll also put a measuring device or a scale in your information to give you an idea of how large this area is or how small this area is.

  • Did you do that when you were photographing the injuries on Darren Wilson?

  • And then after you completed all of your investigation in this case, did you remove the memory card from your camera?

  • And did you have those, I can't remember, do you burn it onto a desk or do you take the memory card to the lab?

  • No, the memory card is placed in, in the old days referred to as a film envelope, and then that was hand carried by myself to our photo lab. The photo lab will download the original images from the media card onto a disc and then after that's completed, on homicide cases, officer involved shootings and other cases of note, they will print the photo lab, meaning they, will print 8 X 10 photographs. This was done in this case.

    I will respond back to the photo lab, those images are reviewed my me and then they are stamped with official photographs and for the prosecuting attorney's set. I will circle the image number on the back of the 8 X lOs and put my initials and DSN on the back of them.

  • All right. Did you do that in this case?

  • When you examined the photographs after the lab had printed them out, did the lab print each and every image that you had snapped during your investigation?

  • So there is no images that you deleted from the camera or images that might have been developed that you discarded?

  • Absolutely not.

  • Do you in any way crop these photographs?

  • Absolutely not.

  • Do you in any way edit them or use a filter when you are photographing or change or enhance color?

  • Do you recall how many photographs you took in this case?

  • I believe around 50. (Deposition Exhibit Number 10

  • marked for identification.)

  • (Deposition Exhibit Number 10 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I'm going to hand you what I have marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 10. Did you and I get this envelope yesterday, did you recognize this from my office yesterday?

  • We did. When I stamp these photographs, I fill out the front of this with a header information as far as date, complaint number, what type of incident it is, and in this scenario since I went to three different locations, those three different locations are also marked on front of the envelope.

    In addition to that, I put my information on there as far as crime scene unit, Detective my DSN.

    We also stamp in front, which matches what's on the back of the photographs so it is marked official photograph. And as far as the dissemination, in this case this was marked PA, standing for the prosecuting attorney's office.

  • All right. And I want you to remove the photographs that are inside Grand Jury Exhibit 10. And just briefly leaf through them. Do those appear to be the photographs that you took during your investigation of this case?

  • And do they, each photograph bear your markings where you stamp them as an official photograph and you circle the image number and place your initials there?

  • Yes, ma'am. It is reflected here.

  • Okay. Can you tell me what the last photograph that is in that stack is numbered?

  • Okay. So you have 50 photographs in your hand there?

  • And so for the sake of ease, if you want to sit in that chair right there, and I will have you one by one we're going to go through each photograph and you are going to describe what is depicted in that photograph. So this is Image Number 1, correct?

  • We already have testimony from Detective about the placard that is photographed, is that your habit to do that as well?

  • Every time, yes, ma'am.

  • And that contains the date that the photograph, what date, is that the date of the incident always or the date that the photographs are being taken?

  • Usually both. If I respond to a scene to photograph that, if it is the original scene, at this point it was, then the original date here.

    Now, if I had been involved in this with further investigation, if I have another aspect of this investigation, I will put in parentheses next to the complaint number the date of the original incident. Let's say we had to go back and do something today, okay.

    The date of the original incident would be here next to the county complaint number, but the date of the image that I took, these would be in the first part.

  • So in this case, your investigation?

  • Occurred on 8/9/14 yes, ma'am.

  • That was the date of the shooting?

  • And then we've already had some testimony, the top number is the county complaint number?

  • And below that is the Associated Ferguson Police Department generated complaint?

  • And then the incident as it was called in originally, correct?

  • And then is that your department serial number?

  • And your initials?

  • All right. And can you go to Image Number 2. I will take these from you as we go.

    Can you then go ahead and describe for the jurors what appears in that image?

  • This is an overall view of Darren Wilson at the time of my investigation. As I described to you folks earlier, this is how he was dressed.

  • Hang on a second, I don't want to put anybody to sleep, but I'm going to try and see if it goes totally dark.

    For the record, I was just adjusting the light to make it easier to see that image on the screen. And is that how he appeared in the emergency room dressed in a T-shirt and the pants he's wearing, those are his department issued pants?

  • All right. And Image Number 3?

  • Image Number 3 is an overall view of the back of him from the rear.

  • I think push it up?

  • I'm trying to lose that glare.

  • Can you zoom it in some?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I don't know how to make that different. Again, if you want the photos passed around because it is easier to see the actual photograph, but for the purposes of this testimony.

    I want to see the first picture.

  • You want to see Image Number?

    I personally, if you can give me the picture.

  • And when this is done, if you want, we'll just pass them through you, okay, because there aren't a whole lot of these photographs.

    Image Number 3 again, this is the back of Officer Wilson, correct?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) And are you aware of the T-shirt that he is wearing, is that the T-shirt he had on that day?

  • And when you, I know you didn't examine him like a doctor, did you see anything on him that indicated that he had been bleeding?

  • No open wounds?

  • None that I observed, no.

  • Did you ask him if he had been bleeding or if he was cut?

  • And what was his response?

  • Okay. Now Image Number 4 . No, wait, that was Image Number 4, isn't it?

  • And just for the record, we have to make a record, Image Number 4 is?

  • Overall view of the facial area of Darren Wilson.

  • Image Number 5?

  • Overall view of the left side of his face.

  • Image Number 6?

  • Overall view of the right side of his face.

  • Image Number 7?

  • It is a part of a series of two, the first part of this is a close-up view of the left side facial area without a measuring device.

    The next image is one with the measuring device.

  • And the next image is Number 8?

  • All right.

    What is it you are measuring there?

  • That was one of the injury complaint sites by Darren Wilson. He complained that his face was hurting. So when I asked him specifically, he pointed to these sides of his face. We'll get to it shortly, but also the back of his neck.

  • Okay, thank you.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) That is Image Number 9?

  • It is. Again, part of a series of two, this is a close-up of the right side of his face without a measuring device and then one with a measuring device.

  • And with the measuring device is Image Number 10?

  • Correct.

    Image Number 11 overall view of the back of his neck.

    Again, part of one, two series of images, close-up view of the back of his neck without a scale.

  • And that's Image Number 12?

  • It is. And 13 reflects one with the scale.

    Next Image 14 is the left rear side of his neck without a scale and 15 with the scale.

  • Sheila Whirley. What are you measuring on there?

  • Again, Miss Whirley, just a complaint site that he complained of.

  • So that line of demarcation does not have anything to do with the complaint site?

  • No, ma'am, that's a natural crease in his neck area.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Next Image Number?

  • Is the right rear side of his neck without a scale, and then 17 is with a scale.

    18 is the left side of his neck without a scale, and then 19 is with a scale.

  • All right. So those 18 total photographs were how Darren Wilson appeared when you photographed him on August 9th shortly after 2:20, or about what time did you actually photograph him?

  • At 2:20 that's when I initiated my, I turned my back to you folks, I'm sorry, that's when I initiated my investigation and documentation as I stated earlier of the injury sites that Darren Wilson complained of.

  • Did you photograph any other parts of his body?

  • Did he complain of any other injuries?

  • Did you examine his hands?

  • I looked at them, I did not examine them.

  • Okay. Did he complain that his hands were injured or hurting in any way?

  • When you looked at his hands, did you see the backs of his hands?

  • And did you notice anything that appeared to you that might indicate an injury to the backs of his hands?

  • Now, at the hospital, did you seize anything from Darren Wilson?

  • And you had indicated previously that you were also charged with the duties of seizing his clothing?

  • And his gun?

  • And now you said that he had his department issue pants on in the hospital; is that correct?

  • Did you talk to him about those pants?

  • And did he show you anything on the pants?

  • He said there was blood on his left thigh.

  • And did you look at the pants?

  • Did you see something that was some type of stain on the left thigh of his department trowsers?

  • I did. There was a reddish stain on the upper thigh area.

  • And did you photograph those pants in the hospital?

  • No, ma'am, we did that at Ferguson Police Department.

  • Did you seize his pants at the hospital?

  • Why is it that you just have him take his pants off right then and give it to you?

  • He had nothing else to wear. I didn't want him traveling in just a hospital gown back to Florissant Police Department.

  • So was there a decision made for you, as well as Darren Wilson and others to go back to the Ferguson Police Department?

  • And was there a discussion about somebody bringing clothing for him?

  • Yes. I did discuss with Lieutenant Colonel from Ferguson Police Department to see if we could make arrangements from

    whoever, to make arrangements if they could bring clothes to Ferguson Police Department so that Darren Wilson had something to wear home that day.

  • All right. Now, did you travel directly from the hospital to the police department?

  • Now, let me ask you this, getting back at little bit at the hospital, did you ask Darren Wilson any questions about what happened that day?

  • You didn't ask him about, tell me what happened or anything of that nature?

  • Did you hear him talking to anybody else about what happened that day?

  • No, ma'am, not while I was photographing.

  • All right. So did you go by yourself in your crime scene van to Ferguson?

  • To your knowledge, did Darren Wilson travel there with another officer?

  • Lieutenant Colonel I believe, yes.

  • Did you all arrive at the Ferguson Police Department at around the same time?

  • When you got there, what's the first thing you did?

  • After meeting with Detective Darren Wilson, Lieutenant Colonel we entered Ferguson Police Department and went to their detective bureau.

    I was told that's where Officer Wilson or Darren Wilson's department issued firearm was, his uniform shirt and that's where we were making arrangements to have clothes brought to him so I could document the uniform that he was wearing and also seize those uniform pants from him.

  • And so when you went into the detective bureau, did you locate the weapon?

  • Yes, I inquired of its whereabouts and I was told that someone had placed Darren Wilson's department issued side arm in an evidence envelope, which wasn't sealed. It was on a desk there in the detective bureau with other detectives from that department present.

  • And did you locate that envelope with the firearm inside of it?

  • And you said it wasn't sealed, did you remove the contents of the envelope?

  • What was inside the envelope?

  • His department issued Sig Saur firearm, the magazine and one live round, and that's how the firearm was placed in that envelope. I did not download that weapon when I inquired about it. I was told that Darren Wilson had downloaded the weapon and then probably at the direction of the supervisor, it was placed in that envelope and merely for conveyance purposes, I assumed from the scene back to Ferguson Police Department until I arrived.

  • But that was not your firsthand knowledge, correct?

  • So the gun, the empty magazine and one live round was in that envelope?

  • And you were told that the gun was downloaded by Darren Wilson?

  • And you all know what that means, downloading, other than like on the internet, can you explain what that means for the jurors?

  • Sure. When you download a semiautomatic weapon for our terminology, that means that the magazine is removed, all rounds that are in the magazine and whatever is chambered is removed and the slide is locked back. That's a safe way to store a weapon.

  • So was that in the condition it was when you got it out of the envelope?

  • Okay. And now you are not a ballistics person; is that correct?

  • I am not a certified ballistics expert, no, ma'am.

  • Are you familiar with this weapon?

  • And is it, in fact, the same weapon that you carry?

  • And so did you, when you removed the weapon from the envelope, did you photograph it in the state it was in?

  • Okay. Let's go through those. Your first is Number 20, I believe?

  • It is. Once I removed the weapon, it was laid on top of the Ferguson Police Department's evidence envelope in exactly the condition that I removed it from.

  • You and I talked about this yesterday, what's this thing right here?

  • That is just part of the seal on the back of their evidence envelope. I did not apply that and nor was it sealed.

  • Okay. And this portion of the weapon, that's the slide of the weapon?

  • And it is locked in the pulled back position?

  • We have a question?

    When you handle this evidence, are your hands gloved?

  • Even when you are photographing?

  • Always, yes, ma'am.

  • As a general rule, I always wear two sets of gloves. If the first set becomes contaminated or in this case, if I was to swab this for any other potential forensic evidence. That first set is removed before I move onto the next step and then another set of gloves is put on so I don't run the risk of cross-contamination.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So you are double gloved when you are handling this firearm?

  • All right, yes?

    So the envelope, it was your understanding that was the first time it had been used was when that gun was put in?

  • I was just told it was placed in the envelope.

  • By that picture, it looked like the envelope has been used before?

  • It's possible, I don't know.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) And, Detective, did you seize the envelope?

  • Just clarification. What is the protocol for when you seize a weapon and it is placed in the evidence bag to be inspected, what's the protocol as far as putting it in there and everything else after that?

  • I can speak for the County Police Department, I can't speak for another agency, okay. We do not package firearms in this manner.

    If I go to a scene and there's a firearm laying there, okay. There's a standard protocol that we always follow, and I think you may have seen some of those from Detective

    We'll take an overall view, we'll take what is called a midrange view to tie in that firearm, if we are talking about bag this, where it is on this section of the table. The overall view would be the entire room, okay. Midrange view would say, well, it is near these two jurors and these two microphones.

    Then we would take a close-up view of it, but it is still in place. We have not manipulated it, we have not touched it and then what you folks will see here shortly we follow the same protocols as far as images.

    Once it is photographed in place, then wearing gloves, we will pick it up, usually lay it on another surface, whether it is an evidence envelope or evidence box, which would be the County Police Department. We don't put fires arms in a package.

    And then we would lay that firearm, we would photograph both sides, we would take an image of the serial number, we would remove the magazine, photograph all of these things as they are, and then we would unload the magazines and whatever rounds in the magazine. We would display them next to the magazine to document, well, these are the rounds that we found in there.

    We would then lock the slide back and whatever is in the chamber or not in the chamber then we would document that.

    We would package those items separately, but they all go into one gun box.

    If we were to seize this and render it safe, then it would be inspected by another detective or one of my supervisors to confirm Detective looked at this gun and he cleared it, and I'm checking to make sure that it is cleared so everyone is safe.

    We would then put what's called a lead seal, which has a number on it through the trigger guard, which would be this section right here. And per our firearms unit, we would put in essence, it is a orange zip tie that runs from, if I can change images, Miss Alizadeh?

  • Sure, just identify the image you are going to put up there.

  • The next image is Number 21. This is the other side of the weapon. Again, our normal sequence. And right here would be the ejection port, that orange zip tie would initiate going through here, it comes out of the bottom of the magazine, goes in and then we would secure that. Then it is sent to the firearms unit to verify when that gun gets there, that it couldn't have accidently slide, go forward, it could have been knocked around or something. And we want to confirm when it goes to our crime lab personnel that that gun is safe, has been inspected and has been confirmed. So come back to your original, I can't speak for other departments, I can only share with you what is our protocol policy and procedure.

  • One more question. Did you take a picture of the envelope while the weapon is in the envelope?

  • I have the question about the clothing. Is it common practice to have somebody travel from one spot to another before you take the clothing, I mean, I'm wondering is there a reason why somebody couldn't bring that to the hospital where he was instead of having him travel somewhere else before he got there for his clothing.

  • Again, ma'am, I can't address that, that was Ferguson's decision. If I was to work, and I've worked hundreds, if that was a County Police Department employee, we would have made arrangements to get clothes to him or her.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Does anybody, the first image of the weapon was Photograph Number 20, does anybody need that back up? We are moving back now for 21, which has been on the screen. Describe what you are seeing?

  • That is the other side or the right side of the weapon, the slide locked back. Visible in it serial number, as I explained earlier.

    And Image 22 is a close-up view of that serial number. You folks may not be able to see that. We can certainly pass that around. I don't know how to make that clearer.

  • Can you, just with the pointer, point out where the serial number is?

  • Right in the center of the image is the serial number of that firearm.

  • Now, also not clearly visible on the screen, but again, we will pass these around, there is, there is something right there?

  • There's a red stain right here. And also in this area on the slide.

  • All right. Were there any other red stains that you found anywhere else on the gun?

  • Yes, they're on the slide also.

  • Okay. And now before we get to, I know you depleted your photographs, but while we have this up, let's go forward to you swabbing the gun.

  • We also heard Detective talk about these kits that you are equipped with in your crime scene van?

  • They are prepackaged and sterile swabs, correct?

  • Did you swab that gun?

  • What area, if we could maybe just use 20 and 21 again, instead of that close-up, just point with the pointer the areas of that weapon that you swabbed?

  • The entire slide area, all three sides of it and this area on both sides.

  • And so that would include the reddish stains or the reddish substances that you could see on that weapon?

  • Now, let you resume with the next image.

  • The next image is 23. Again, we're documenting the condition of the contents from that firearm that was in the envelope placed by Ferguson Police Department personnel.

  • And that magazine is empty?

  • Do you check for fingerprints in the gun?

  • No, it is the officer's gun.

  • You don't check for fingerprints?

  • No, the magazine in light of these circumstances.

  • No, the magazine, in the gun, when he holds the gun?

  • Let me address that because that's a good question.

    I'm sorry.

  • That's great.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I kind of skipped over that, let's talk about that right now.

  • So when you were, were you told that there was a physical struggle over this weapon?

  • And were you told that Michael Brown may have had his hands on the weapon?

  • So was there some discussion between you and other officers about swabbing versus fingerprinting?

  • Okay. Have you all had a fingerprint expert testify before you before?

    (All jurors indicate no.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) On a surface like this firearm, how would you go about examining that, do you want those firearm pictures again?

  • Just let me have one of them please, ma'am.

  • How would you go about looking on that weapon for fingerprints?

  • Okay. Based on the information that I was told regarding the incident, I was informed that Darren Wilson while holding his firearm, his department issue pistol, while he's holding it, there was a struggle between Mr. Brown and Mr. Wilson while the officer was seated in his police vehicle and Mr. Brown was outside.

    So if you take that and say okay, well, the officer is holding his gun, he never relinquished it, the gun was never taken away, however, we are wrestling over this gun.

    Common sense would tell you that if I'm holding the handle of the gun here, then what opportunity or what else is the other person struggling over. Probably this area of the gun.

    The magazine was never released from the gun during the incident, it was never dropped or picked up, the officer never lost control of his gun.

    If you have a violent event like that, you have to make a decision whether you are concerned about hopefully getting a DNA profile or the possibility of retrieving latent fingerprint evidence.

  • Let me stop you really quick here. We are going to finish him up describing this because our doctor is here, but I'm going to let him finish this area about the fingerprint versus swabbing.

    Now, I want to clarify that the things that you are talking about concerning a struggle over the gun, that is not from your firsthand knowledge, correct?

  • Absolutely not.

  • That's information that came to you from other sources?

  • And not Darren Wilson?

  • And then you are making some assumptions about where you might fingerprint based upon just common sense and your experience?

  • Okay. So this is not to say that this is how it happened, but this is based upon your experience and what you have been told at this point where you might expect to find fingerprints?

  • Okay. You can then go ahead and talk about, you have to make kind of a decision between whether to swab for DNA or to look for fingerprints?

  • So why did you make a decision to swab for DNA?

  • Based on training and experience, and also based on the information that I was given, you're not going to have fine ridge detail during a violent encounter. It would be different if this gun was like this and someone just came up, other than the officer, and touched it.

    When we process that, yes, you can get fine ridge detail. So the decision was made between myself and the crimes against person detective, homicide detective, that it would be better to swab the weapon.

    Now, if you are going to swab it, then you need to swab all the relevant areas that could be touched by someone other than Darren Wilson.

  • Because, of course, you know Darren Wilson has touched that gun?

  • Exactly, he was holding it.

  • It would tell you nothing if his DNA is on it?

  • Absolutely not.

  • We know he touched the gun?

  • Right, it is his gun.

  • Once that decision is made and you swab, then you're going to have to swab those areas that were described earlier. If there was fingerprint evidence, you are going to be swabbing through them, so that's why you need to make a decision whether you want to process this for fingerprints or do you want to process this for DNA.

  • And in processing this weapon for fingerprints, could you after that swab it for DNA?

  • So you had to pick one or the other?

  • And based upon your information and consulting with the detective, crime scene detective, not crime scene, crimes against person homicide detective, was a decision made to swab for DNA?

  • And that's what you did?

  • Did you package those swabs in the regular manner?

  • Do you have any questions about his processing this gun or about the gun itself or anything like that?

    Did you describe what type of gun is it again?

  • It is a Sig Sauer P229. It is a .40 caliber weapon.

  • Just so you know and, of course, he is familiar with this weapon, but we will be calling, you know, someone from the crime lab that is an expert on ballistics and can answer all kind of questions about this weapon and how it fires and so forth.

    Once you swab the critical areas for DNA, is all of the DNA at that point removed from the object basically, it is rendered clean?

  • You might have a trace only because these are cotton swabs and when we swab something, we do two at one time. One for the prosecuting attorney's office, that's going to end up going to the lab and potentially a defense attorney so we keep one on file.

    When you are holding these two cotton swabs, if you folks can picture Q-Tips, okay. You are holding two of them together, unless you're going back and forth and completely swabbing every little spot on this thing, you're not going to remove all of the DNA, all right.

    You're trying to get the most profile or profiles that you can by swabbing those areas back and forth. Kind of like painting a first coat, you're not going to paint, you're not going to cover everything with your first coat. The same thing applies when we're swabbing for DNA. So potentially could be DNA left on there, but we try to get the largest sample as we can.

  • I just need to know this. When the weapon was seized, before you got to the weapon.

  • It was in the envelope?

  • The protocol that the envelope is supposed to be sealed, you know, like you collect evidence and you get the bag, all the evidence is in the bag and you seal the bag until the right person comes and inspects the bag?

  • Again, I can speak for the County Police Department, yes. What I was told, the information that I was given is that it was just placed there for, in essence, conveyance or storage until I got there. And then, obviously, when I arrived and I processed or I seized or I package something, then I follow what the County Police Department crime scene unit and our crimes lab protocol as far as how we package things.

  • Was it locked away or sitting out?

  • It was in the detective bureau on a desk.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Just for clarification, do you know does Ferguson Police Department have their own crime scene detective?

  • Were any of them that you know of involved with processing anything involved with this shooting?

  • In fact, Ferguson had asked county to come in and take over this investigation within maybe an hour of the shooting, would that be your understanding?

  • And so to your knowledge, did any Ferguson crime scene detectives have anything to do with seizing evidence, processing any scenes?

  • No, ma'am, that's why they requested my unit to respond.

  • And so I'm only guessing or speculating, had a Ferguson crime scene detective actually seized this weapon, he might have handled it in a different manner than what was done in this case, would that be a guess or fair to say?

  • That would be accurate because Ferguson Police Department has sent some of their officers to the crime scene school that I teach at our academy. I'm confident in stating that they would probably have followed protocols if they were actually seizing pieces of evidence.

  • Okay. Any other clarifications?

    Yes. You may have said it, who actually put the gun into the envelope?

  • I have no idea.

  • Okay. Would there be an issue when you do the swab of somebody else's DNA on the gun.

  • What I was told is that Darren Wilson had unloaded his own weapon, so if he handed it to someone else, I was never informed of that.

  • Now, I will tell you we will have DNA people testify and they will tell you what DNA was found on that gun and if they can identify whose DNA it was.

    So as far as that goes and let me ask you, Detective did you take a swab from Darren Wilson at the hospital.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So there was a sample of Darren Wilson's DNA taken by you at the hospital?

  • And that is done by rubbing something on the inside of his cheek?

  • Yes, it is called a buccal swab.

  • And you are fully gloved?

  • Do you have a protocol on how to take that swab and package it so that there is no contamination?

  • You do not want your DNA on that swab in any way?

  • So at any rate, there will be some testimony sometime down the road about what was discovered on the swabs that Detective used when he processed that gun and then, you know, any conclusions to be drawn from that.

    Anybody else about the gun? We're going to have to break with him and Detective I'm sorry, you will get an invite back on another day.

  • I love to come chat again.

  • We'll go ahead and have him finalize the disc and while the disc is finalizing, because we all know that takes a couple minutes, how about if we take a break. And in shifts, I'll start these photographs over here so if you all want to like, if you need a restroom break and then come back as these are getting passed around, and you might be able, you will be able to see. We're not going to do the ones we haven't talked about yet, just the ones we identified.

    (Recess) DR. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • For the record, this is Kathi Alizadeh present in the grand jury room with Sheila Whirley we are both with the St. Louis County Prosecutor's Office. All 12 jurors are present and, as well as the court reporter who is taking down the testimony and also audio recording the proceedings today.

    For our next witness, would you state your name, please?

  • Could you spell for the court reporter your first and last name? A

  • And what is your profession?

  • I'm a forensic pathologist.

  • And can you describe for the jurors your education and how you obtained the degrees to become a pathologist?

  • For starters, I obtained my bachelor of science degree at Xavier University at Louisiana, that was a four year education. I then attended medical school four years at Louisiana State University. College medical school down in New Orleans, which was a four year training. And then I did a four year anatomical and clinical pathology residency at St. Louis University here in St. Louis.

    I did one additional of pediatric pathology, which was a one year fellowship and fellowship specifically in forensic pathology at St. Louis City Medical Examiner's Office.

  • Can you explain for the jurors what is, what is a pathologist, what does he do?

  • The basic definition of a pathologist is someone who is a medical doctor who is in the profession of studying disease.

  • Can you describe for the jurors what is a forensic pathologist?

  • A forensic pathologist is a specialized doctor in the field of pathology who is dealing with determining the cause and manner of death.

  • And you are a forensic pathologist?

  • Are you board certified?

  • Yes, I am board certified in anatomical pathology as well as forensic pathology.

  • Are you employed as a forensic pathologist?

  • Where are you employed?

  • I'm currently employed as an assistant medical examiner at the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office.

  • Is that the office, is the chief medical examiner for St. Louis Dr. ?

  • Yes, she is.

  • You work under her supervision?

  • How long have you worked for the County Medical Examiner's Office?

  • A little over two years.

  • Prior to that, did you work for any other medical examiner's office?

  • And so when you began working for the County Medical Examiner's Office, was there any training that you underwent or any on-the-job training that you had to go through when you first began?

  • Urn, I mean, the main thing that's important is that you've done a certified or approved forensic fellow, which I did do at St. Louis University through their system at the St. Louis City Medical Examiner's Office. So that's the main thing that you do need, plus your medical degree and eventually being board certified to be able to practice what I practice at.

  • And so in probably, what I would say in layman's terms, one of your chief duties and responsibilities is to perform autopsies, correct?

  • And just we all think we know what an autopsy is, but can you explain for the jurors in general when you have a deceased person how you begin an autopsy?

  • The autopsy itself, it is kind of layman's terms just for the general examination that occurs that I have for a case and it entails a lot of features depending on the circumstances, some things are not done or done, but in a complete sense of an autopsy, you do an external examination, which is looking at the external features of the body with the clothes on and then removed.

    Once they are removed, you want to look at any type of identifying characteristic, any kind of scar, any type of wounds, any type of tattoos, anything that you can physically see on the body that may be an abnormality or be something different, that's the external portion of the examination.

    That is then ultimately followed with an internal examination where you are actually assessing all of the organs, weighing the organs looking at the organs to see if you see any type of pathological or disease type changes, any type of injuries on the inside of the body.

    In terms of different ancillary studies that would be things that are in addition to external, as well as the internal examination we do toxicology, that's taking fluids from the body just in a general sense, blood, urine, fluid from the

    (listen) eyes where that fluid is tested to see if there is any type of drugs, any type of toxins within the body.

    The body is x-rayed some time to look for any type of fracture, in homicide to see if there is any type of projectiles within the body or any type of knives or things of that nature.

  • And by projectile, you mean like a bullet?

  • Correct, like a bullet. Other things that are done, sometimes I do cultures, that is just looking for any type of bacteria or viral packaging that may be in the body, that may be the cause of death. Medical records, if they are present, I will review those as well and sometimes I have to use histology, which is looking at actual tissue that has been processed to be able to look under a microscope, where I look under the microscope and then I can make a diagnosis of different type of disease changes.

    So those are kind of the basic things that go into an autopsy and as I said, sometimes all of those things are used, and sometimes bits and pieces are used, but more the most part complete external examination, internal examination and the toxicology, that's pretty much routine on all cases.

  • And now you are not the toxicologist; is that correct?

  • That is correct.

  • You just collect the samples that are then tested by a toxicologist?

  • That is correct.

  • Now, prior to your beginning and autopsy, do you receive information from anyone about the deceased that may assist you in knowing what you are looking at and what to look for?

  • And in this case did you have a conversation with

  • Is he one of the investigators from the Medical Examiner's Office?

  • Now, in this particular case, did you examine the body of Michael Brown?

  • What day did you examine him?

  • August lOth.

  • So this would be the day after the shooting, correct?

  • Now, in every autopsy that you perform, are there police officers there during the autopsy?

  • Not every autopsy I perform.

  • In a situation where there might be criminal activity involved in this person's death, is there always a police officer who is present for the autopsy?

  • Yes, there is.

  • And are you familiar with some of the St. Louis County crime detectives, crime scene investigators?

  • Yes, I'm familiar with them.

  • And are those generally, well not generally, do they on occasion attend the autopsies?

  • Yes, they do.

  • And are you present when a police officer is photographing the autopsy?

  • Do you at times direct the officer, you know, get a picture of this because this shows this?

  • And then if you are removing anything foreign from the body, do you then, does the officer document that object?

  • Yes, he does.

  • Does typically the officer would then seize those objects if there was anything seized from the body that might be evidentiary in nature?

  • Yes, they do.

  • So you're not, your job is not collection of evidence?

  • But there is someone present during the entire autopsy whose job is there to collect evidence?

  • That is correct.

  • Okay. Now, in this particular case, this autopsy performed on Michael Brown, what information did you have from that was something that you considered prior to beginning the autopsy?

  • Urn, when I was contacted by he called me on my personal cell phone to let me know what particular cases came in on his shift and he informed me of the cases that came on his shift, and one of the cases was Mr. Michael Brown.

    The circumstances that I got from him were very brief and minimal. At that particular time he informed me that there was a police shooting. He mentioned to me that there appears to have been a struggle and that was kind of the extent of the information that I had at that particular time.

    So from that point, I know that the body is going to have to come in for examination due to the nature of the particular type of event.

    There is certain cases that are under my jurisdiction as a medical examiner and that particular case of Mr. Michael Brown fit that jurisdiction, so I knew that that case was going to come in for examination.

  • Are you aware that Missouri has a statute that says that the actual body and its possessions of a deceased person are the property of the Medical Examiner's Office?

  • And so in this particular case, well, let me back up.

    You're aware that ultimately prepared a report, correct?

  • But he didn't have his report prepared when you first began your examination; is that correct?

  • Okay. And did you see any other police reports or any other reports about this incident before you began your examination?

  • No, I did not.

  • Did you get any other information from anywhere else, whether it be a police officer or witnesses or anybody else?

  • Before I started my examination, Detective

  • was present at my autopsy examination and I did ask him about the circumstances that he knew at that particular time.

  • What did he tell you about what he knew at that time?

  • Trying to remember exactly, it is a while back, but it was just basically similar situation of there were two gentlemen in the street, police officer responded to that particular area, from that point in time a struggle ensued and then after that things were difficult to determine at that point in time, but ultimately it ended in the result of Mr. Michael Brown obtaining fatal wounds.

  • Okay. And so jumping forward now, at the conclusion of an autopsy, do you prepare a report?

  • And is that report reviewed by anyone else in your office?

  • Urn, there's a secretary who transcribes the information that I speak into a digital recorder, but it is my words and she transcribes my words, I get it back, I correct it.

  • Okay. And so did you, you prepared the report after your autopsy of Michael Brown?

  • And did you approve the final report as correct, in other words, those were the words that you had dictated?

  • Yes, yes, I did. (Deposition Exhibit Number 6

  • marked for identification.)

  • (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I'm going to hand you what I marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 6. And is that a copy of your report of the post-mortem examination, post-mortem examination just another term for like an autopsy?

  • Is that your report of the autopsy of Michael Brown?

  • All right. And I'm going to pass around to all of you a copy of the report. Again, as I have mentioned before, if you are reading a document when a witness is testifying, just keep in mind that you might be missing something that's being said. These reports are yours to keep in your folders that we've provided for you to review at any time. And if at a later date after reviewing the report you have additional questions, we will try to get those questions answered for you.

    I'm also handing you a document, I didn't mark this, Dr. did I show you that prior to your testimony today?

  • Yes, you did.

  • This is a list of terms of anatomic orientation. In your report, you use terms that I would say a layperson isn't going to be familiar with, would that be fair to say?

  • That's fair.

  • And when you are autopsying a body, is it one of your jobs and responsibilities to describe the location of a wound?

  • And if it is some kind of piercing wound, whether it be from a knife or projectile, you describe the path of that wound or the trajectory so to speak of that wound?

  • That is correct.

  • You use terms that might not be common everyday terms that laypeople would understand?

  • That is correct.

  • Do you agree that these terms that I showed you on this list are accurate?

  • And do you think it would assist the grand jurors if they have a copy of this if they later want to use the report?

  • So I will pass those around as well. Again, if you will write your grand juror number on the upper corner of these documents, please do not write on them. If you have notes to take, go ahead and take those notes in your notebook, but these are going to be, do we already have somebody that wrote on it? Did you write on it? If need be, I can get you a clean one. I want to make sure that the notes that you take are in your notebook.

    So, Dr. are you assisted during the autopsy?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) And is it someone who is employed by the Medical Examiner's Office who assist you?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • And do you recall, you said Detective

    was present for the autopsy?

  • (Nods head.)

  • He is a detective with the County Police Department?

  • That is correct.

  • And was there another detective there who was photographing and seizing evidence?

  • There were two other detectives there, but I don't know their names specifically.

  • All right. And so when you, after your autopsy is completed, is it a standard, I'm sorry, and in the case when the police are also involved in the autopsies as far as documenting things, does the Medical Examiner's Office receive a complete copy of the photographs that the police took at the autopsy?

  • Okay. Now, I'm going to show you what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 7.

    (Deposition Exhibit Number 7 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I am going to ask you to just remove what's in there. And this is a stack of photographs and just real quickly just leaf through them?

  • And tell me do you recognize these as the photographs that were taken during the autopsy of Michael Brown?

  • Now, we've already done this a couple of times and I think the easiest way to do this is if you would sit in that chair there and take those and have them on your lap.

    And when we talk about these, now we have already had some testimony from some crime scene detectives about these photographs, and including the fact that each photograph has a number on the back of it. And so when I refer to the photographs, since I haven't marked these individually, we will just say this is Image Number 1, okay?

  • And so forth.

  • So let me turn down the lights again. Makes it easier for people to see.

    So, Dr. I know you're not necessarily the author of this and not familiar with what is depicted in Image Number 1, but the jurors have heard testimony about this. This is the placard that was prepared by the officer who took these photographs and that would be his DSN down at the bottom And my knowledge is that that is Detective And if necessary he can testify about taking these photographs if you need to hear from him about what he's done.

    But, of course, it is going to have to be the doctor who testifies about what we are seeing in these photographs for the most part. So Image Number 1 is the placard.

    Can you put Image Number 2 up there, please? I think it goes towards you on the thing, there you go. Can you describe what you are seeing in that image?

  • On the table is Mr. Michael Brown, the decedent in question, and this is the way that the body was presented to me after removal of the body bag, which is the white bag that you see draped over the table. And there's the placard identifying the particular case and that's myself off into the background in the back.

  • So that placard, and here is a laser pointer right next to you right there, can you just point to where the placard is you are talking about?

  • This is the placard, identifying placard for this particular case.

  • And that's prepared, that's not the one that the county detectives prepared, that's something that the medical examiner does, correct?

  • Actually, sorry, this one is St. Louis County, sorry.

  • Okay.

    So when the body leaves the scene, is it taken directly to your offices or where is the examining on the lOth, what happens between when it is collected and this day?

  • The body is picked up from a delivery service, delivery service is responsible for picking the body up from the scene. At that point when the body is picked up from the scene, it is brought directly to the St. Louis County Medical Examiner and it is placed in the morgue, in a cooler, until eventually I'm going to come for the examination. Let me back up a step. When the body comes in and it is checked in by the morgue staff or it is given a number, and just to make sure that it is logged in appropriately and put into the morgue, but the body goes into the cooler to wait until the next day. We will take initial round of pictures and then we will get to the point where we are right now.

  • You are welcome.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So when the body was removed from the cooler, was it still locked in the bag?

  • We heard talk about the fact that there is a lock placed on the bag at the scene by him?

  • That is correct.

  • After the body is received at the Medical Examiner's Office, does anyone before your autopsy begins unlock that bag?

  • If that lock had been disturbed or broken or opened when you began your autopsy, would you have noted that?

  • And so when you open the body bag, this is the body of Michael Brown as it appeared when you open the body bag?

  • That is correct.

  • We see in the image that we have heard testimony from that there is paper bags that are placed on the hands of the deceased?

  • That is correct.

  • And that was done by at the scene?

  • That is correct.

  • And would it be protocol for to have used latex gloves while he is handling any of the body while he is at the scene?

  • That is correct.

  • So after that has happened and the officer has photographed what we see in Image Number 2, what happens next?

  • Urn, at this point, in theory and in terms of normal protocol or in terms of how I approach the case, at this point I will eventually myself start looking at the body, start the initial external examination that I spoke with you all at the beginning where I am looking at the clothing that the particular decedent has on. And just stating how the body appears to me, at least initially, in terms of clothing and that would be the next step.

  • Okay. And so let's move through the photographs as we go and Image Number 3?

  • Yes, this is Image Number 3.

  • So just describe, if you briefly want to describe what we are seeing here?

  • This is just the decedent, Mr. Michael Brown, from the other side of his body, looking from the other angle before the angle is just flip flopped. So it is just the other side, you are looking at the right side of his body as opposed to the first image which was the left side of his body.

  • Okay. Image Number 4?

  • Image Number 4 is just kind of an overall view of Mr. Michael Brown's face as he is as soon as the bag is removed to expose his face and rest of his upper body.

  • And this up here, that's the placard that you were talking about?

  • That's the identifying placard that was prepared by St. Louis County Police Department, this is Mr. Michael Brown's face.

  • Okay. And Image Number 5?

  • Image Number 5. So this is, we actually have a ladder in the actual morgue suite where you are able to get a higher vantage point to be able to get a larger view of the body.

    So the officer in this particular case has got on top of the ladder, he is doing an overall of Mr. Michael Brown where you can see at least down to the mid thigh, from the head down to the mid thigh and seeing the arms and the torso, and here is the identifying placard again.

  • Let me stop you here. As you say the body was, you know, the bag was opened and you examined it, are the clothes disturbed for the purposes of these photograph?

  • No, the clothes were not disturbed. This is how they are maintained within the bag as soon as it is opened.

  • So nobody lifted up the shirt, nobody pulled the pants down, that's how it was when you first saw it?

  • Okay. At this point, are you the one who puts the body onto the table?

  • Urn, so from here, he was placed on this table initially within the morgue cooler, it is on wheels. So when it comes out, he is staying on here the entire time. So the entire autopsy is going to start coming from the cooler, to this part where you are seeing the pictures, to me actually doing my incisions and remove organs, so he stays on this table the entire time.

  • And Image Number 6, I believe?

  • Image Number 6. So this is still a view from the ladder where the officer is taking pictures, here is that identifying placard and here is a shot from the head would be here, the feet are down here and you can see the hands and you can see the rest of the lower extremities of Mr. Michael Brown and what he was wearing.

  • Now, there is a white object that's affixed to his right ankle, do you know what that is?

  • These are added to the body just as identifiers to make sure we know whose who when they are coming in for examination.

  • So that was placed on there by someone from the Medical Examiner's Office?

  • Not prior to him being --

  • And then the next one, Number 7?

  • Image Number 7, this is Mr. Michael Brown. Again, we can see the face and you can see the shirt that he was wearing, just a closer image of the face and upper body.

  • Okay. Number 8?

  • This is number 8. So we are looking at the right side of Mr. Michael Brown's face and you can see the shirt that he's wearing and you can see the right side of his face.

  • This is Image Number 9. And this is predominantly, you know, this is the right side of the face here, the left side would be here off of the view of the picture. So you can see some of the injuries here to the right side of the face.

  • Now, before I get too far ahead of ourselves here, do you have other images in this stack that better document the injury that you documented?

  • So you haven't, in other words, you haven't cleaned him up?

  • No, that is correct.

  • And at some point do you clean him up?

  • And is it easier to visualize the injuries after that?

  • That is true.

  • Okay. So we'll go through these and then we will talk about the injuries when we have the other photographs. And that is Number 9 is next, I think?

  • Yes, it is. This is Number 10.

  • Yes, that's right. This one is Number 9, you've got Number 10 up there on the screen?

  • Yes. This is similar image to what I just showed. We are still looking at the right side of the face and what has been introduced here by the officer who is taking the photos. He has introduced a ruler, the ruler is important for scale in order to if you want to go back in time to say how big or how small things are, that's the purpose of the ruler that has been introduced into this picture.

  • Okay. And the next would be Number 11?

  • So this image is flip flopped a little bit, mouth and the nose would be up here, the top of the head is here, we are still looking at the right side of the face and then you still have this ruler that has been introduced into the picture.

  • Okay. Number 12?

  • This is Image Number 12. Now, we're seeing a little bit more of the left side of the face, but still predominantly focused on the right side of the face and once again the ruler is here for scale.

  • This is Image Number 13. And here we're looking at the right side of the face, getting a little bit lower near the draw line, jaw line depicting an injury here on the right side of the face.

  • This is Image Number 14. Similar to the last image that I just showed you. The only difference is the ruler has been inserted into the photograph for scale. So we are looking at the right side of the face, again, focusing on this wound.

  • Image Number 15. Flipped upside down, but the mouth would be here, the top of the head is down here, once again focusing on the right side of the face depicting injuries.

    Image Number 16. So we're looking at the right side of the body, there was a similar image of this before, but the feet are down here, the head is up here, this is the right side of the body.

  • Now, in this image, the shirt of Michael Brown, the shirt is actually above his --

  • Nipple line.

  • nipples? That was actually manipulated prior to the photograph?

  • The shirt has been manipulated prior to this point to better get an assessment of the body looking for other injuries.

  • This is Image Number 17. So what we're looking at here is once again, we are still looking at the right side of the body, the feet would be here, the head is up here, you have the right arm being extended kind of perpendicular in a 90 degree angle from the table. The hand is up here, the shoulder would be down there. And we have these wounds here near the forearm, this is the forearm.

  • Okay. Image Number 18, I believe?

  • This is Image Number 18. This is the right forearm and we are looking at a wound here, that is what is being depicted at this point.

  • This is Number 19. We are looking at, do you want me to just go through the picture or you want me to reference them to my report at this point, what is the best way?

  • This is prior to being cleaned up or not?

  • It is kind of in between. It is a little bit cleaned off in order to get a better shot.

  • But we're still, the shirt is still on.

  • Let's go through these and then we will start with the injuries as you've documented them.

  • Okay. I can just go back and pull them out.

  • We can pull them out?

  • And, Doctor, is it your habit when you begin to describe injuries, do you like start from the head and work your way down, or do you just pick a certain way to describe them?

  • Urn, my usual approach is, I kind of go in terms of more significant injuries to the least significant. So I typically will start with the things that look to me to be, you know, more immediately impactful to the life of an individual.

    So when I get to the situation where I have wounds of the arms and things of that nature, those would be further down in my report. That's my typical approach when I do cases.

  • Okay. So we've scene the photographs of the head and the side of the body, and now we are looking at injuries to the right arm?

  • To the arm, yes. So this is the right forearm and there is an injury right here where they introduce the ruler scale in this particular photo.

    This is Image Number 20. We're still looking at the right forearm and this is on that previous photo, that's the wound that you were seeing and this is a new wound here on the right forearm.

  • This is Sheila Whirley. When you say the forearm, where are you speaking of?

  • The forearm, particularly is the region of your arm between your wrist and your elbow.

  • Okay. And those are two separate wounds did you say?

  • Yes, they are two separate wounds. There is one here and there is one here.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) At some point we will describe them and what you conclude from those wounds?

  • Yes, I will.

  • We are just going through the photographs in order just so we can get them all in, all right? And the next Number is 21, I think, 21, yeah?

  • Yeah, 21, and similar photos to what you just saw, but there's rulers here. You still have that wound here on the forearm and then here is another one on the right forearm.

    Is this 22?

  • This is Image 22. So we're backing up a little bit and it is kind of hard, I can see it on my picture, we will get a little bit closer. So the head of Mr. Michael Brown is here, this is still his right arm, and this is like his torso here. What I'm going to be focusing on there is a wound right here on the middle part of his upper right arm. There is a wound right here.

  • This is Number 23. And this is a closer picture of the wound that I couldn't really show too well on the overhead projector, but this is the wound in question right here. So it is on the upper portion of his right arm, but it is on the inside portion of the arm, medial.

  • We talking about the armpit area.

  • Close to that.

    This is Image Number 24. This is just the same picture again, but you see the ruler inserted for scale and this is the wound.

    This is Image Number 25, so the head of Mr. Michael Brown is here, the hand, the right hand is out here, this is the shoulder area and we are looking at the medial or kind of the inner aspect of the right arm, but what I'm focusing on right here there's another wound right here in the bicep region on the right arm. And then there is also a tattoo here on the forearm that reads Big Mike.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) This is 26 now?

  • This is Image 26. And this is just a closer picture of that wound that I was showing before on this part of the bicep and on the right arm.

    Image 27. Same image, again, of the wound of right bicep. You have a ruler introduced for scale.

    This is Image 28. Backing up a little bit, but it is still the right arm, Mr. Michael Brown's head is here and there is a wound right here on the upper part of the right arm.

    So here, and specifically this region would be, we call it the ventral surface or anterior surface or the front surface of the arm, but there is a wound here that I'm depicting right here.

  • Which arm is this?

  • This is the right arm.

  • So there is a tattoo we saw in an earlier photograph on the right forearm?

  • That read downward, correct?

  • And in this image there is another tattoo, that's not the same tattoo, correct?

  • This is a different tattoo on the upper portion of the right arm. When I say the upper portion of the right arm, I'm talking from the elbow to the shoulder. So where your bicep would be and this is a different portion of the right arm, but there's a different identifying tattoo here.

  • Image Number 30. Showing that same wound on the front portion of that upper right arm, but the only difference is the ruler has been introduced into the photo for scale.

  • Image 31. So now we are looking, the shirt has been raised, we are still looking at the right sides of the body. So over here on the right lateral side of his chest, lateral is to the outside, you have a wound right here and that's the main thing that I'm focusing on at this point.

    So this would be 32. This is just a closer up view of that wound that I just showed you previously here on this lateral part of the right chest. And this is the nipple on right side.

  • 33, it should be?

  • Image Number 33. The only thing different in this photo is, the ruler has been introduced per scale. Still looking at the same wound I just showed you.

    This will be Image Number 34. So here is Mr. Michael Brown's head, the shirt has been raised up further in this particular situation. That previous wound that I was just showing you was down here, there is a new wound here on the, kind of the upper part of right chest, and that's what I'm focused on right now, a different wound?

  • This is a close-up view of that wound that I showed you on the upper part of that right chest.

  • Image 36. The only difference is a ruler has been introduced per scale and there is also a wound out here, this is like an abrasion here on the right side of the chest. So there is two things of interest here and here.

    Image 37. We have switched over to Mr. Michael Brown's left arm and what, so his head is here, this is the left side of his body, this is the left arm and left hand that is still bagged with a brown paper bag. And there's an injury here on left forearm as well as there is a tattoo right next door.

    So this close-up image of the left forearm showing that injury that I just mentioned as well as the identifying tatoo.

  • Just for the record, that was Image 38.

  • Image 39. Only thing different is the introduction of the ruler, still showing that injury on left forearm as well as the identifying tattoo.

  • Now, you are classifying this as an injury rather than an wound, any significance to that?

  • I'll do a little better with kind of keeping things consistent once I get to one place, but injury and a wound, they are similar. But eventually when I get to the point I will be able to break it down for you, like this is an abrasion, this is a gunshot wound, and I will separate all of those out for you guys so you won't be confused. I'm just trying to get through them, I'm sorry.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) At this point you are documenting any injuries, no matter how they occurred?

  • Or defects. They are all kind of the same thing. There are things that is happening to the body that he wasn't born with, so.

  • If he had an appendectomy scar -(cid:173)

  • I would mention that.

  • With a heal injury, you would still document that?

  • I would mention that, yes.

  • So I think we just did that one, didn't we? I probably handed it back to you. I thought you would want it.

  • Number 40. So this is still the left arm, the bag has now been removed from the hand and that's the main difference with this photo.

    This is Image 41, this is still left arm, the head is here, this is showing the dorsal, or the back side of the hand after the bag has been removed.

    This is 42. Now, I'm flipping back over to the other side of the body and this is going to be his right hand and the bag has been removed and here you can see an injury.

  • Yes, 43. Image 43. This is the back side of the right hand and this is the, you know, the right forearm, right hand, this is after the bag has been removed from the hand. Image 44. This is just a closer view of the injury to the right hand and this is the ventral surface of the hand or the palmar surface of the hand. And that's the particular part that we are looking at. This is a close-up of the ventral or palmar surface of the hand. This is the right hand, this is the thumb and this is the particular area of interest, there is an injury. Image 46. Only thing different here is the introduction of a ruler. We are still looking at the right hand looking at that surface where this injury is. This is 47. So in terms of getting a different take on the hand and the injury, the hand has been cleaned off at this point. So I have removed some of that blood and material that was stuck to the hand. So this is a cleaner image of the hand after the bag has been removed and after it has been kind of cleaned off and we are still looking at the palmar surface or ventral surface or front surface of the right hand.

  • Before you washed the hand, you collect under his nails or whatever it is he has gunpowder or skin?

  • A good question. The question raised was, before I am starting to wash or clean the hand, do I do any type of forensics or other biological evidence from the hands, and I do.

    Once the bags are removed, they are documented with pictures and in this particular case, I did do scraping underneath the nails to get material which is then submitted for analysis. And I also took fingernail clippings from both hands, which is submitted for evidence.

    And the actual clipper that I actually used to remove the finger nails, that is also submitted as evidence. So all of those things are done before the hand has been altered or washed. And then at that point once I have taken the fingernail clippings and the scrapings, then I go ahead and wash the hands and then continue my process.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So the clippers that you used to clip the nails, those are one use clippers, they are sterile, correct?

  • And then regarding, let's talk about that injury to the right palm. We have seen in the photograph that you have washed it off so you can get a better look at the injury, correct?

  • Now, at some point you took, you cut a piece of that wound out; is that right?

  • That is correct.

  • But you haven't done that at this point?

  • No, I have not.

  • What do you wash the wound with?

  • Usually just water, warm water and a towel or a rag, or sometimes they have like kind of like a bristle type brush to be able to scrub off that blood that is kind of stuck to the hand. It is pretty resilient, sticks pretty good. So just using water, warm water and scrubbing, that's how we remove it.

  • No chemicals?

  • Nothing like that?

  • Okay.

    Water from the sink or?

  • Water from the sink.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Okay. So now back to the image that you last showed?

  • We are at 48 now. So this is still the right hand, the hand has been cleaned, it is just a closer view of that injury to the palmar surface of the right hand.

    This is Image 49. So only thing different, a ruler has been introduced for scale.

    So this is Image 50 and now we are back on the left side of the body. And this is the left hand and that's that wound or injury I was showing you guys earlier. I'm trying to focus on the thumb here, there is a little abrasion there.

  • Now, let me ask you, let me put this back up here. We see the position of the arm and the wrist and the hand is bent.

  • Is that being held in that position or is that the way the body is fixed?

  • Most likely some of it is me putting a little bit of tension onto the hand to be able to better see the particular injury that I'm looking for, but at the same time there is also particular ways that the body, it is called rigor mortis, the body will be kind of fixed in a certain position. So there is mixtures of kind of these two events happening at the same time.

    The natural fixation or rigor mortis of the body, plus me putting tension on it to get a better look at the injury that I'm trying to show in this photograph.

  • Okay. So the next photo is?

  • This is Image 51. So this is a close-up of that left hand and it is just this little injury right here. Technically it is an abrasion, this is what I'm focusing on right here.

  • This should be 52.

  • 52, I'm sorry.

  • Image 52. Still showing that little injury/abrasion there on the hand. And the only difference is the introduction of the ruler for scale.

    This is 53. So we are still looking at the left hand and I've, I'm starting to pull this fifth finger or the pinky finger on the left hand, I'm trying to expose a little area of discoloration on that hand.

    Showing you 54. So this is that fifth finger, that pinky finger on the left hand and this is this little area of discoloration, that's all I'm focusing on in this photo.

  • Just so we know, did you determine was that an injury, that little area of discoloration?

  • No, I don't feel that it is.

  • It is getting tired.

  • There it is. That's just that little area of discoloration on the left hand right here by the pinky finger. For anatomical purposes, this is the dorsal surface of the finger, the posterior or back side of the finger.

    Image 56. So we're looking at Mr. Michael Brown's head is here, we are looking at the dorsal or the back side of the left hand and there's an injury right here.

  • And for the record, or just so we go through this, would you consider this an abrasion?

  • As previously mentioned, this is just a closer, I'm sorry, Image 57. This is a close-up view of that previous abrasion here on the dorsal aspect of the posterior of the back side of the left wrist and there's an abrasion there.

    Same image again of that abrasion on the left wrist, back side posterior, just only thing different is the introduction of a ruler.

  • And that's 58?

  • That's okay. I'm trying to catch it when I can.

  • Okay. Now, let me stop you here. So at this point you have documented all the injuries that you can see and?

  • There is still one that I can see right now.

  • There is another one that I have to expose.

  • Okay. But at this point now, you remove the clothing?

  • All right. And is the clothing seized and packaged by a police officer?

  • Yes, the clothing is seized and packaged as evidence to the officer.

  • Now, let me ask you this. At some point is his clothing searched while he is in the morgue.

  • And who does that?

  • Usually the morgue attendant will search the clothing.

  • Were you present when that was done?

  • I do not remember.

  • Okay. And so if there was anything that was inside the clothing or attached to the clothing, that would have been removed by the morgue attendant?

  • That is correct.

  • And so who actually removed the clothing from the body? A

  • And is the clothing removed by cutting it off?

  • Urn, it depends, but in this situation it was just removed normally as you and I would take off our clothing. The only time the clothing is cut is if it is too difficult to remove it, but in this situation the clothing was not too difficult to remove, so it was not cut.

  • Okay. And after the clothing is removed and that's seized and packaged by someone else, any items that were inside the clothing is taken care of by someone else, do you then clean up the body?

  • Yes, yes, I do.

  • And so this next image, which I can't remember what number that is?

  • We are on 59.

  • Okay. This is now the body after the clothing is removed and the body has been cleaned of excess blood and so forth, correct?

  • It is the best possible attempt to do so.

  • Okay. Now, let me ask you this. I don't know if I'm jumping back or forward here, but initially in your examination, I don't know if you do this with clothing on or without the clothing on, but do you weigh the body?

  • How much did he weigh? Do you have your report there if you want to refer it?

  • Specifically 289 pounds.

  • Is that without clothing or with clothing?

  • That's with clothing.

  • And then do you also measure the height of this person?

  • And how tall was Michael Johnson?

  • And I'm not good at math, but is that 6 feet 5 inches?

  • I had to use a calculator before when I did that, I'm a lawyer.

  • 6'5". Were you told how old Michael Brown was or his date of birth?

  • I was told how old he was.

  • And how old was he?

  • Okay. And in examination of his body, do you make any type of conclusion about does he appear to be his stated age?

  • And developmentally?

  • Yes, I do. That's the general approach. I do make that reference one, there are some facial injuries, but there is still enough to be able to make that assessment.

  • Okay. Now, as we go forward with these photos, the wounds that you already documented will be photographed again and now we will go and describe them.

  • And you document them in your report, correct?

  • And so when you get a photograph, let's say the name of the image, and then in your report you have these injuries as number one, number two and so forth. So let's refer to them like that. So if you want to go along in the report, ladies and gentlemen, if it makes it easier.

  • I'm trying to see when I get, we're still kind of going back through and looking at tattoos and cleaning off stuff.

  • When I get there I'll do that.

  • 59, and this is the first picture that we've seen where his clothing is removed, correct?

  • Correct. So here we have the head, there is the feet, Mr. Michael Brown's clothing has been removed. Once again we have that identifying placard and this is his body without the clothing.

    This is Image 60. We have the identifying placard, this is Mr. Michael Brown, this is looking at the right side of his body with his clothing removed, feet are here, head is here, that right arm is extended coming out at you.

    This should be Image 61. This is Mr. Michael Brown, clothing removed and then once again the officer who is taking the photos, he has ascended upon the stair step ladder to get an overall view of Mr. Michael Brown without his clothing.

    Image 62. This is showing the lower half of Mr. Michael Brown's body without the clothing and here is the legs and the lower portion of the abdomen.

    This is Image 63. Looking at the right side of the body and in here getting a better visualization of one of those identifying tattoos on the, kind of the upper portion of the right arm.

  • Now, just for clarification sake, what is this thing right here?

  • That's just a paper towel that is sometimes used to remove blood or to get rid of anything that's obscuring anything that I'm trying to see.

    This is Image 64. And this is just a close-up of that tattoo, you know, with the blood that was obscuring it removed from the upper right arm.

    This is Image 65. This is a better image of the forearm with that identifying tattoo, still see a wound here near the bicep and this is the right arm and then that wound of the right hand.

    This is 66. This is just a better image of that identifying tattoo on the right forearm, Big Mike.

    This is 67. This is the left arm now, the head is here, the feet would be out here, this is the left arm and we are looking at the forearm with the identifying tattoo and that injury that you guys saw earlier.

    This is 68. So this is the left forearm with the identifying tattoo and then there is this linear abrasion out here on the left forearm. And this is the front part or ventral part or anterior part of the forearm.

    This would be 69. And with all cases we have it is important to look at the back side of the body as well as the front, and that involves the external examination. So here Mr. Michael Brown's body is being rolled by the autopsy technician

    so we can document that there are no injuries to the back side of the torso.

  • You did not find any injuries to the back side of his torso?

  • No, I did not.

  • How about the back side of his buttocks or his legs?

  • No, I did not.

  • Now, just for descriptive purposes, you talk about front side and the back side or anterior, posterior, ventral, dorsal, those are all interchangeable terms?

  • When you are talking about your arms, because your hands can move from one way or another anatomically, would it be correct that in an anatomical diagram the person would be standing upright and their palms would be forward?

  • That is correct.

  • So if you are describing an injury on the palm, that would be a front injury to the front of the hand, anterior, ventral?

  • It is still ventral. The front would be anterior, it could be ventral, all of those are interchangeable terms or palmar, they are all the same, all the same thing. Just depicts the front portion of that body part in the standard anatomical position. And when I document the injury, it is always from this position. This is my reference point. (indicating)

  • So when you're talking about, for example, an injury to the forearm, your forearms move when you turn your palms outward, correct?

  • So when you are talking about front or anterior, you have to imagine that this is a person whose palms is facing out. We might think this is the inside of our arm, he doesn't describe it that way. So for clarification, imagine that your arms are in this position like he describes where the wounds are on the arms, not so for the legs because the legs just stay the way they are.

  • The way they are, yeah.

  • No, that's fine, excellent point.

    I think I can start trying to describe some of these.

  • So we're going to start with some wounds now?

  • This is Image 70. And the wound I will be talking about first will be Number 9.

    The next photo is going to be closer, but just to kind of let you know, so this is Number 9 that we're looking at. Specifically I term this is medial ventral right forearm.

    So what that means is, I will stand up so you guys can see. So the normal anatomical position is like this. So when I'm saying medial, medial is in reference to, you know, draw an imaginary line down the middle of that particular extremity, medial is to the inside, lateral is going to be to the outside of that imaginary line.

    Ventral, as we have already discussed before, is talking about the front part of that particular extremity or whatever we are looking at. It is also synonymous with anterior, front or whatnot.

    When I say medial ventral, or right forearm, so talking about something that is off the midline inside, which makes it medial. Ventral meaning it is on the front and depicting a particular area which is the right forearm. So that's the terminology. So, and we're talking about this wound right here.

    So this next image, which will be 71, showing a close-up of wound Number 9.

    So a lot of this is just jargon for me to be able to say where it actually is on the body in terms of reference points. So with all of my gunshot injuries, I like to have two reference points.

    One of them is a fixed point, so in this particular situation, I find something is going to be the right elbow and I'm going to say how far above or down it is to be able to specify, you know, the upper dimension or the lower dimension, which is kind of just your natural body axis.

    So in this particular situation this wound is 15 centimeters below this right elbow, and then you want to be able to say where in the midline that is and that lets me know medial or lateral.

    So in this particular situation, this particular wound is 5 centimeters to the left of the anterior midline of the right forearm.

    So when I say left, it is from my left, not from you looking at me.

  • From the body's left?

  • From the body's left. So this is the right side of my body, since I'm going to the left, I'm going over here, that's how it gets to where it is supposed to be.

    So from that point, what I want to do after that is, I measure all of the wounds in terms of dimensions to see how big it is. In this particular situation it is about 2 centimeters wide as it is long. So it is 20 millimeters by 20 millimeters or 2 centimeters by 2 centimeters, whatever you want to use. It is the same changeable amount.

    Once you do that, you want to look at the edges of the wound, meaning why that is important, with exit wounds as well as entrance wounds, there is particular identifying characteristics that you can see on a case by case basis. They are not always there, but there is certain things that kind of give me inside track to kind of figuring out what it is.

    So in this particular situation when I'm looking at the edge of this wound, it is more irregular, it is kind of like, you know, someone kind of took a bite out of it, it is not a nice smooth circle or oval, it is more irregular. These edges are kind of tattered and look different.

    So I specify how that looks to me. So in this particular situation I say that there's irregular edges, the wound is irregular and it is also clean, meaning that I don't see any type of injury to the actual edge of the wound.

    Exit wounds, classically, this is kind of how they look. So once all of that is done, I'm able to say at this point that this is an exit wound.

    So once I'm familiar with this as an exit wound, eventually I'm going to want to try to find out where the entrance wound is.

    So we know where we are on the arm, on the right arm, we are on the inside portion of the arm and we are off medially of that midline. So this is the exit wound of that right forearm.

  • Let me ask you, Dr. this discoloration right here at about 10:00 on that picture, what does that mean?

  • That's just blood, dried blood.

  • When the blood coagulates, it darkens, that is what a clotted piece of blood looks like after it sits there too long, that is what that is.