The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • I will have to look and see if it is included in the diagram. I'm sure there are pictures and videos that you will see, be able to see the light pole in those images and then if necessary, when we have a witness who is familiar with the scene, if need be, we could have them using our diagram, which has already been in evidence point out to you where the light pole exactly is.

    All right, very good.

  • Good morning.

    (All jurors say good morning.)

  • This is Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office, present is Sheila Whirley with the prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors are present today, it is September 23rd, as well as the court reporter or the stenographer who is taking down what is being said. We are also recording, audio recording, that's happening in the grand jury right now.

    I wanted to make some preliminary remarks. Now is the, in the next couple of days and a few weeks, I suppose, we are going to be hearing testimony from some people say that they are eyewitnesses of parts of this incident. And many of them have already had, been interviewed, all of them have been interviewed by law enforcement at some point. And as far as I can think of, almost all of them have been recorded by law enforcement as far as their interviews.

    As you know, we are recording, audio recording everything that's being said as well as taking down by court stenographer everything that is being said.

    That is an extraordinary thing that in my experience, we've never done before. And, you know, the proceedings in the grand jury are historically, have been secret and people who appear before the grand jury are testifying in secret and it is usually not disclosed that they testified or what they said. But in the interest of the public's need to know that this investigation is thorough and fair, my boss, Robert McCulloch, has decided to do this extraordinary thing, which is to record everything. And if there is sometime down the road if there is ever an issue as to whether or not this investigation was thorough and fair, we will have those recordings to show exactly what was done.

    But as you can imagine, there are witnesses who are very uncomfortable who have information and are willing to come forward, but do not want their names disclosed on the record or where they live or, you know, their birthdate, any identifying information about them and that's understandable given what, you know, has happened in our community in the past month about, you know, the public's reaction to the incident and the investigation into this.

    And so because our goal is to get as much information as possible so that you can decide the facts in this case, we have decided that witnesses who do not want their name or identifying information about them to be on the record, we are not going to put that on the record.

    What we are going to do is when that witness comes forward, he will be sworn, he or she will be sworn, and then the court reporter will not activate the audio recording initially. That witness will then identify themselves to you by their name and where they live, although I told them I'm not going to ask them for an address, mainly just south county, you know, I live in the Ferguson area, I live in north county, or what have you.

    And then those witnesses will be referred to, once they've given that identifying information, then I will have the court reporter start the audio recording at that point. So their testimony will still be recorded and the court reporter will transcribe their testimony, but they will be referred to by myself and in the court reporters record by witness number.

    Last night I made a list of every witness who has appeared before you so far and just for the sake of the record, we're just going to go chronologically with the live witnesses as they've testified.

    So if you recall who was the investigator with the Medical Examiner's Office, he was witness number one. Number two was Detective

    Number three was , although will have to come back because we had to cut him his testimony short, if you recall.

    Number four was Dr. , the medical examiner. Number five, Number six was Sergeant with the Ferguson Police Department. Number seven, Detective with the County Police Department. Number eight was Special Agent with the FBI and finally number nine, last week, was Darren Wilson, the Ferguson police officer.

    So we will continue to call witnesses and give them a number so that if they do not want to be identified on the record we will refer to them as witness number 12, 15, you know, what have you.

    Urn, we are not going to do that for witnesses who have been on the media because those people have chosen to put themselves out there in the public eye, they've identified themselves by name, they're on TV, so those witnesses will, their names will be on the record. I'll ask them their name and, you know, where they live and in the general vicinity where they live.

    The other issue is that because we are going to be playing recorded statements that these people have made, and many, in fact, most of these recorded statements, the statements begin with the witness giving their name, their date of birth, their social security number, their address and sometimes, you know their cell phone numbers.

    And, again, I believe that probably in the case of every witness, that information probably should not be made public. I think it is okay for the witnesses who have been on the news for their names to be out there, but probably not their social security numbers and their exact address and cell phone numbers.

    So for that reason, when we begin playing a recording of a witness' statement, I will have the court reporter turn off the audio recorder in here. The statements are, they're already on disc, they are marked as exhibits, so we have those statements.

    I will make a record that I'm playing Grand Jury Exhibit, you know, so and so. I'm playing the statement of Witness Number 12, who off the record was identified by us as, you know, by name and so then we will stop the audio recording to play the audio interview that is on disc.

    In most of these cases we also have transcripts of the recordings that we will pass out to you and then the court reporter will also have a transcript so he can, that will assist him in taking down what's being said, but he will also be instructed, you are instructed that at some point we're going to have to redact that information from the transcript. You and I can discuss that later, but you know, the whole purpose of this is so that we can, you know, keep people, people's private information private. And in the case of people who don't want to be identified for fear of reattribution, we need to keep them, I guess, unidentified, at least on the record.

    Does anybody have any questions about that process is or how we are going to do that? We're going to kind of have to work out kinks as we go because I had a discussion at length with other people in my office last night about how we were going to go about doing this. So we're going to see how it goes, I guess.

    So, for instance, these witnesses who are being identified for us at least, does that mean if this were to go to trial that they would not appear, only this portion would then be presented in a trial or they may potentially be required to present themselves?

  • If this matter were to go to trial, I mean, first of all, it is not something that you should all really worry about too much. Your job is not, I don't want you guys thinking about what is going to happen after you all make your decision. You can't be affected by that.

    But in the constitution, everybody who is in trial has the right to confront and cross-examine witnesses who give testimony against them. So, you know, the constitution will not allow us to put on, you know, unidentified witnesses.

    I know you probably have all seen on television when there are proceedings televised, they will black out the witness' face, but that is just for television.

    In a courtroom setting, that witness' face is not blurred, obviously. So you will understand that that's not something that you have to, I mean, that's not a part of your decision process.

    Whatever happens after this, we will deal with it, whatever happens, but for now, this is how we are going to proceed.

    So when we get to the end of everything, all the proceedings, these audios that we are doing, they will be made public?

  • That is a decision that we have to wait and see. My boss, Mr. McCulloch, has made a public statement about his intentions. Obviously, if this case, you know, that I can't say for sure. I know he has made public statements at some point this all will be released. But when, I cannot say and again, that's one of the reasons why you all are referring to yourselves by juror number. Your identities will never be disclosed. So that's how we are trying to handle this.

    Does anybody else have any other questions about the process?

    And, I hate to ask you, you normally don't ask questions. You understand what I was trying to explain about the process?

    I will give you one later when you are actually doing your transcript.

    Any other questions? So our first witness of the day is not here yet, but we are going to go ahead and start playing discs that we have that are statements that he has made previously. But what you are going to hear, and I hope he's just running late, but the first witness of the day, our plans were to call

    , and he is not here. So we're going to keep going. The first disc that you are going to hear is labeled as Grand Jury Exhibit 22.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 22 marked for identification.)

  • And it is a disc that contains video and audio of the media statements that has made in interviews and on the television.

  • I have no idea how loud it is.

  • Because is identified, we're not going to shut off the audio recording because these are media statements that he's already made.

    ( Playing the recorded statements.)

  • You understand we didn't want his commentary.

    (Playing the recorded statements.)

    (End of the recording.)

  • The next exhibit is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17. You have already heard other statements that are contained on this disc. It is a CD that has a number of witness statements on it and I have a transcript that is going to be passed out to you all.

  • Yes.

    What date was interview?

  • ? Okay. We have her scheduled as a witness.

    I'm talking about her audio?

  • This is

    We heard when did they actually interview her?

  • She's going to be a witness for us today.

  • Are you asking when was her television interview?

    Yes, ma'am.

  • I don't know, I will have to find that out for you.

  • We will be playing your interview for her today too. We will get all of those questions answered.

  • Has everybody got the transcript passed around yet?

    And, again, if you will put your juror number on that in the corner and keep that with the materials and make notes on it if you feel you need to.

    Just so you know, this is one of three statements that made to County Police. So this is referred to just on the disc as

    Interview Number 1, is that what it says?

  • We will play Interview Number 1.

    (Playing Interview Number 1.) DETECTIVE Today's date is Saturday, August 9th, 2014. The time is approximately 4:40p.m. My name is Detective

    , St. Louis County Police Department, This interview is in reference to an officer involved shooting resulting in a fatality referenced under St. Louis County Police Report Number 14-43984.

    The person being interviewed is date of birth, (redacted)

    Ahh, (redacted) . DETECTIVE Okay. (Redacted) . , we spoke, urn, prior to this recording about what you witnessed outside. Can you kinda of tell me in own words what you saw?

    Okay. I was in the bedroom, and I hear an altercation outside. I happens to look out the window and I see, urn, the young guy was at the Ferguson police car on the passenger window. And I see something exchanged, some arms exchanged and that's when I call my fiancee for her to look out the window and, urn, that's when I ran into the front outside, and that when, urn, I see, actually, it was two guys.

    Urn, when, but the guy, he constantly, he just ran down in the middle of the street and the officer just gets out the car and shoots.

    I thought it was six times. So, urn, when he, when he hit, I guess when he hit the first and the second time, the guy, he kinda stopped and turned around facing the officer, uh, bent down a little bit curled up, and the officer let out, what, three, maybe four more shots to the guy and that's when he hit the ground and, urn, and that was it and that was the whole thing.

    And he actually had a friend, he, I don't know, I just seen him duck down, a car, urn, they had a car door open, it was a white car, urn, he hopped in, I guess those two cars left.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    But that's the whole scene right there, the officer still had his gun out telling everybody to back-back, the ones that was outside and that was that and you guys called too.

    DETECTIVE Okay, urn, these, this other guy who was by the officer's car, can you describe him?

    Ahh, you know, the only thing that I could say that he may have, I definitely know that he was black, urn, he had dreads.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    But I can't even describe what he had on because everything was happening so quick, cause something happens here almost every weekend.

    DETECTIVE Gotcha.

    So, urn, yeah, that's it. DETECTIVE Okay. That will conclude the interview. The time is approximately 4:43p.m.

  • Okay. So I know I talked about not recording the audio statement because he did state his date of birth and address, we will have to deal with that and see if that can be somehow redacted. For this next statement he makes, I'm going to go ahead and let that be recorded because he doesn't make any other statements as to, you know, personal information. So I will, we'll go ahead and audio record the playing of

    's Interview Number 2, but we will stop the recording for 's Interview Number 3 because that does, in fact, disclose more identifying information, so.

    Again, this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17, Number 2.

    DETECTIVE Today's date is Saturday August 9th, 2014. The time is approximately 4:45p.m. This is Detective

    This is a second interview with witness Uh, you said you had approached me, or approached me and said you had something you wanted to add to your statement; is that correct?

    Yeah. Urn, the only thing is urn, when I was at the window, when I saw the altercation, the guy ran. I heard the shooting, that's when I saw the cop gets out of the car just when I was still --

    DETECTIVE Did you say you heard shots first?

    Yeah, I heard the shots first. DETECTIVE Okay.

    I was still at the window. That's when he got, got out of the car and I heard the shots. That's what drew me to outside so I could see what's going on.

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh.

    And, uh, I guess the guy did get hit cause he turned around back towards facing the cop, kinda walking back towards him slow, curled up and he let go three, four shots back at him.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Say that for me, he turned around, he started what, curled over and started walking --

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. DETECTIVE --towards the officer?

    Well, yeah, like he was hit and he shot him three or four times and that's when he hit the ground.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So when you're in the--in the, just so I can clarify, when you're in your bedroom window, the officer's still in the car?

    No, no, he wasn't there, he hopped out then. He hopped out after when the guy ran from his window.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    So he ran from where the altercation was.

    DETECTIVE When did you hear the first two gunshots, you said you heard some gunshots?

    I was, I was in the window. DETECTIVE And where was the officer at that point?

    That he was still in the car. That's when I saw the altercation, whatever was happening

    DETECTIVE In the car?

    And the guys ran. DETECTIVE Okay.

    And that's when he immediately hopped out the car and did his first two shots.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    And that's when, okay, okay, I need to go outside.

    DETECTIVE Gotcha.

    That's when I went outside and obviously he got hit and he was curled up and he kinda like walking towards him, just a little bit and then he let go three or four more shots and that's when he hit the ground.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    But I was at the window, that's when I did see the, as soon as he ran, he hops out of the car and again starts shooting.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    That's it. DETECTIVE Okay. That'll conclude the interview. The time is 4:47 p.m.

    (That is the end of Interview Number 2. )

  • All right. The next statement we're going to hear is contained on another disc, Grand Juror Number 24.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24 marked for identification.)

  • Which is also a disc that contains numerous recorded statements. The way that my office has been getting these, the officers just put numerous statements on discs. Sometimes they give me discs that have statements on there that I have already had on another disc.

    So don't, you might see other people's statements when we put this up, but this will be the third interview that the County Police did with

    and I will pass out transcripts for that. This is a longer interview.

    And when we get ready to start the audio recording of the interview, if you could then pause the recording that's going on in here.

    At this time prior to the playing of an audio recorded statement of , which is done on August 13th, 2014. The detective questioning him is Detective And at this time I will ask for to pause the recording of the grand jury.

    (Recording is stopped at this time.)

  • We're not recording, but you can take down what's said other than the fact that we would redact the identifying information from your transcript at some point.

    So we are not recording, however, we are taking down the statement as it is being played. Sheila, go ahead.

    (Third recorded statement of DETECTIVE This is Detective

    with St. Louis County Police, uh, Bureau Crimes Against Persons, uh, Uh, also present is Detective St. Louis County Police, uh, Department, Crime Bureau Against Persons.

    Urn, the date is 8/13/2014, it is a Wednesday. The time is 10:27 a.m. The interview is being conducted in the parking lot of DePaul Hospital.

    Urn, the interview is in regards to St. Louis County Report Number 14-43984, which is classified as a homicide.

    Uh, the person being interviewed is

    , uh, black male, date of birth, (redacted) . Social security number,

    (redacted) . Who resides at (redacted) .

    Uh, he has a cell phone number of

    (redacted) .

    Urn, , do you understand that this interview is being recorded?

    Yes, I do. DETECTIVE This is being recorded with your permission?

    DETECTIVE Are you willing to continue with the interview?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. All right. , urn, I know that, uh, one of our detectives has spoken with you, uh, on Saturday, August 9th, uh, on the day of the incident, in --in regard to what you saw. Urn, and basically through, urn, some information we received, we --we --we felt that there might be some more information that you might have.

    So we came to reinterview you, and you mentioned to us briefly upstairs that you had a phone, uh, you had recorded a portion of this on your phone; is that correct?

    Correct. DETECTIVE Okay. And, urn, the portion that you've recorded, uh, was directly after the shooting; is that correct?

    Correct. DETECTIVE Okay. So, urn, that, this phone, this, urn, Samsung phone is yours?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE And you did the recording?

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE And, urn, that's you talking on the video there, correct?

    MR. Correct. DETECTIVE Okay. So, urn, prior to recording, I had you, uh, sign a consent to search form, uh, St. Louis County's, uh, consent to search for your Samsung phone, uh, with video related to the Ferguson incident; is that correct?

    Correct. DETECTIVE Okay. And you did that of your own free will?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. And understand that all we are looking for on there is items related to the shooting itself?

    Yes. DETECTIVE Okay. So, urn, like I said, since I didn't interview the first time and I have this new information about the phone, if you could just start from the beginning about where you were at in the apartment, urn, what you heard or observed, urn, and just kind of let, you know, retell us the story, okay?

    Okay. DETECTIVE If you want, you go ahead and hold this so --

    Okay. Well, urn, Saturday morning, a little bit after 11:30, a friend of mine stops over, wakes me up. Urn, I was outside with him for two or three minutes and he decides to leave. So I goes in the house, urn, goes back into my bedroom. Like another two, three minutes later I hear an altercation outside. And I looks out the window and I see a guy, Michael Brown, at the driver window of the Ferguson police car.

    I'm not sure what was exchanged, urn, something was definitely going on in the window. So, urn, but all of the sudden I see Michael Brown and his friend runs away from the Ferguson police car.

    DETECTIVE Let me stop you real quick. Urn, while they were at the --the door there, or while Michael was at the door.

    Yes. DETECTIVE Urn, what do you think, what did you see there?

    I, I saw some, some arms going through the window. It might have been Michael Brown's arm, he might have been punching a police officer, or whatever. Something was going on through the window.

    DETECTIVE There's some kind of movement, exchange of

    Yeah, some kind of movement, you know.

    DETECTIVE Something going on there?

    Yeah, something was definitely going on.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Where, at that time that Michael's at the window where is, uh, his buddy at?

    The --the, his buddy was basically in the front of the car on the other side.

    DETECTIVE In the front of the police car?

    Yeah, kind of, but away. DETECTIVE On the passenger side?

    No, no, no, just in the front. In the front like, you know, he ain't even --

    DETECTIVE So with, using my window, Michael Brown is to my left?

    Yes in the window and the other guy was in the front

    DETECTIVE So you see him --

    probably like, away, kind of almost.

    DETECTIVE How far?

    --like, probably three, four, maybe five feet away from the car.

    DETECTIVE So he's five feet from the front quarter panel

    Yeah. DETECTIVE --of the police officer's vehicle?

    Yeah. But I'm-- DETECTIVE So towards your apartment basically?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay, all right.

    So, urn, so, like I said, the friend wasn't even, not close as much as Michael Brown was.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    So, uh, like I said, all of the sudden they just immediately runs away from the car.

    DETECTIVE They both did?

    They both did. DETECTIVE Which direction did they go?

    Uh, the --Michael Brown just runs back straight.

    DETECTIVE Behind the correct?

    Yeah, behind the vehicle, running straight down the road as the friend, he just ducks behind the first car that was parked off to the side, which is like a two door Monte Carlo or something.

    DETECTIVE What color was that?

    It was white. DETECTIVE Okay.

    So, urn, like I said, the moment they got started running, urn, I just see the Ferguson cop just gets out the car and I hear the first four shots, I should say.

    DETECTIVE Okay. And --and when you hear the first four shots, let me know where all three of these guy are at. Where is, where is his buddy, where is his buddy, first of all?

    His buddy, his buddy was, about the time he was behind, hiding behind, urn, behind the trunk of the car, of the two door white Monte Carlo.

    DETECTIVE So, so that's where he's at?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay. Where's

    Like going around. DETECTIVE --the police officer at?

    The police officer like, just getting out of the car.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Like, just getting out the car and Michael Brown is already probably like 25 feet

    DETECTIVE Down the road?

    down the road. DETECTIVE Okay.

    So, urn, like I said, he hops out the car, urn, the first three, four shots that I noticed that was taken, I, that's when I yelled out to my fiancee, let's go outside cause this, urn, somebody, uh, the officer is shooting at somebody.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Just hold on real quick. When those first four shots are being taken, where's the officer shooting from and which direction is Michael Brown facing?

    Michael Brown is facing away from him.

    DETECTIVE So he's still running?

    Yeah, he, uh, he still -- DETECTIVE With his back to the officer?

    --yeah, with his back to the officer.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    And the officer is basically, urn--urn, when, like I say, when he's getting out of his car, he is basically walking towards the back as he's shooting.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So --

    And I see the friend, I'm still in the window.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    And I see his friend, uh, like I say, he's ducking for his life, for he runs behind the trunk of the car. But that car, that passenger door was open.

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh.

    You know, so I see, you know, kind of hops in after, urn

    DETECTIVE Did he hop in the car?

    I, obviously, he did. Urn, obviously he did because, like I said, urn, like the first four shots, the officer was taking big steps going past his car. When he got out of the car --

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh.

    --so that's why I noticed that he's not shooting for the other guy because he walked past the white car, shooting.

    DETECTIVE But did, but --but did, did he, what I'm saying though, did you see him get inside the car?

    Yeah, he did. DETECTIVE He did get inside the car?

    He did, he did, but not like that, like as far as like, urn, that was his car, like he just got out of it or something.

    No, no, but he had his buddy with the dreadlocks.

    Yeah, urn DETECTIVE He got into the car, the white Monte Carlo?

    Yeah, the white Monte Carlo cause the door was open or whatever cause uh --

    DETECTIVE Didn't it pull off?

    Urn, I think it pulled off. DETECTIVE With him in it?

    After --after when, urn, uh, when a Ferguson, as a matter of fact, I think it's, it might have been on my phone cause I seen a white car on my phone, but I didn't --

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    --I can't see if it's, urn-- DETECTIVE All right. So, but you saw this guy get into the car?

    Yeah, I did see that. DETECTIVE Okay.

    Because the door was open and, I guess, after when he got done shooting, I guess whoever that was driving told him, let's go cause he's afraid for his life

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    --I'm sure of that, I'm sure of that.

    DETECTIVE Okay, all right. So you're positive he got in the car and he left in that car?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay, all right. So you're positive he got in the car and he left in that car?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay, all right. Let's go back to the officer and Michael's running down.

    Yes. DETECTIVE The officer has exited his vehicle?

    Yeah, and DETECTIVE He was, and so, urn, you said Michael was like 25 feet down the road

    Yeah, already. DETECTIVE --his back is to the officer --

    And, urn -- DETECTIVE You are, uh --

    I'm, I'm, I'm DETECTIVE You're still on the porch, right? Or on the balcony?

    Yeah, when it, after when he did the first shot, that's when I'm, urn, came outside. That's when I'm outside now, but when I came outside, he was already hit. But as far as in

    DETECTIVE Okay. Is, so, I'm sorry, I I may be going too fast here, but, urn, so when you hear the initial shot, you're upstairs.

    Yeah, in the bedroom. DETECTIVE Okay.

    First floor, or three. DETECTIVE Okay. So then, okay, so you heard a shot and then you went outside?

    And then I went outside. DETECTIVE And that's where you saw them kind of doing the

    That's when the, no, no, urn, when I saw the first four shots, that's when I yelled out, let's go outside. When I, when I --

    DETECTIVE I'm sorry, hold on just one second. I need to back up just a little bit because had you heard a shot before you saw them tussling in the car?

    No, no, I heard an altercation.

    DETECTIVE Okay. You're, that's when you heard that brought you outside initially?

    No, uh, what brought me outside was the gunshots.

    DETECTIVE Okay. I'm sorry, I'm, I'm trying to be very clear on this --

    All right, I gotcha. DETECTIVE is why, which is why I'm, I'm having, so the very first thing that drew your attention was what?

    The altercation. DETECTIVE Okay.

    From hearing stuff. DETECTIVE Okay. So you heard them arguing?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Or some kind of --

    Yeah. DETECTIVE --exchange of words.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. DETECTIVE is what you hear? What is first thing that you see?

    Urn, a guy at the window doing something, something.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Had you heard any gunshots at that point?

    No, I didn't. No, I didn't. DETECTIVE Okay.

    But a lot of people saying that they heard a gunshot starting from the inside, but like I said

    DETECTIVE But you didn't hear that?

    I, I didn't hear that. I mean, I might heard it if I was outside already.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    But it probably DETECTIVE I understand. What I'm trying to see

    I gotcha. DETECTIVE --what brought you outside.

    I gotcha, I gotcha. DETECTIVE So, so let's skip forward to the part where, cause we know where he, we know where the friend was at. We know where he went.

    Yeah. DETECTIVE We know, urn, so what I wanna take you back to is to the start the officer gets out of the vehicle.

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE And starts to go towards the back, Michael is running down the road.

    Yeah. DETECTIVE And what is going on there?

    Uh, like I said, by the time I got outside, so either --

    DETECTIVE So --

    --he must have hit from those first three or four shots.

    DETECTIVE But that's what I want to talk to you about.

    Right. DETECTIVE The --the first four shots that you're talking about?

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE I want to be very clear on where --

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE --the officer was at.

    Yeah, urn, like I said, he he was, he was probably just passing the end of his truck.

    DETECTIVE Oh, so by the rear bumper?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Driver side quarter panel area?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay.

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay. So he, uh -- you know, has he already fired or he starts firing then?

    Nah, he --he been shot, he been fired, he had been fired like when he got

    DETECTIVE So from the time --

    --he been fired. DETECTIVE So

    But like, so when he got out the car

    DETECTIVE He start firing as soon as he got --

    Yeah, cause -- DETECTIVE --out.

    the, that's how I noticed that, urn, uh, that he kept shooting, urn, walking past the white car where his friend was.

    DETECTIVE Okay, okay. I just want to make sure that

    So the four or four shots -- DETECTIVE So the the second he exited he started firing at Michael who was running away?

    Yeah, so it was like pow, pow, pow, pow.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    like take time and he was also taking big steps stepping out the car, and like I said --

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    --and I seen him shooting as he was walking.

    DETECTIVE Was he yelling anything?

    Uh, yeah, he --he -- DETECTIVE I don't want you speculating.

    Yeah, yeah, I --he -- DETECTIVE Was, I mean, was he yelling anything at all? And, uh, even if you can't think --

    You know, I can't even remember --I can't even remember that.

    DETECTIVE You don't know?

    I can't say, yeah. DETECTIVE Okay.

    I can't even remember. DETECTIVE Okay.

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE So, urn, see as he's running and he's taken, taken his four shots, he is by the rear bumper.

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE What is Michael doing, how is he reacting?

    Urn, like I said, about the time I got outside after, when I told my fiancee let's go outside. From the first shots, I goes outside and that's when I notice that, obviously, he's been hit because now he's facing the cop.

    DETECTIVE Okay. Now where are you at, though?

    Now I'm outside. DETECTIVE All right. do you have a map or no? Okay. You know where the, you know how you're, you're here near this part, right? Are you in that horseshoe section?

    Yeah, exactly. DETECTIVE Okay. So your apartment's where.

    Be about probably like, directly in the middle.

    DETECTIVE Centered in there?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay.

    And this is the street, so -(cid:173) DETECTIVE And this is about, uh, see, see Michael was down here, right? And the officer's truck was about here or so, or further up?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Show me.

    Let me see, it just about -- DETECTIVE Just like, end of each part of the drive.

    Right, right, urn, it's kind of like, start over and if this is the street.

    DETECTIVE Right.

    And my window right DETECTIVE But you --

    here and, uh, his vehicle is probably right here. Uh, yeah, he is probably about right here.

    DETECTIVE That's where Mike's at?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay. Now, show me where --

    So -- DETECTIVE --where that Monte Carlo was at?

    --yeah, it was probably about right here. It was two cars actually, a white one and a purple one.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    So, urn, after when I seen that --

    DETECTIVE Oh, here you go. That's the map of the area.

    Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. DETECTIVE So --

    Yeah, so yeah. DETECTIVE --is this your building right here?

    Urn, it is probably, I don't know, the shape's kind of weird. Yeah, I think that is it.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Okay. So, urn, so my window right there then, urn, yeah, so the car must have been --

    DETECTIVE Car right there?

    --right there and he must of, his body must have been about right there.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    So -- DETECTIVE So, all right, so --

    And, urn --by. DETECTIVE --by that time where are you standing watching this?

    Urn -- DETECTIVE After the first four shots had been fired, where are you at?

    I'm outside -- DETECTIVE Where?

    after the first four, on my, urn, balcony, on my balcony.

    DETECTIVE You're on the balcony?

    Yeah. So, uh- DETECTIVE And did you go downstairs though?

    Uh, I didn't go downstairs, this is, this was after the tape is up and stuff.

    DETECTIVE Okay. So you never went downstairs?

    I never went downstairs until afterwards.

    DETECTIVE Okay, okay. So you're outside now when, after he's fired these first four shots?

    Yeah. DETECTIVE Okay. Tell me what happens then?

    Urn, when I steps outside, urn, the guy, obviously, urn, he's been hit, cause he curls up and I, but now he--he's facing the Ferguson, the Ferguson officer and, urn --

    DETECTIVE So when you describe him curling up, show me?

    Urn, he's uh, he's, like I said, like he's been hit in the stomach.

    DETECTIVE He's bent over?

    Yeah, kind of like -- DETECTIVE At the waist?

    yeah, like he's about to fall and fall directly

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    on the ground. And, urn, but I see him takes like one or two steps, kind of like I said, towards him, you know --

    DETECTIVE Now --

    --now I don't know if that was a help sign, just a little bit.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Just a little bit. DETECTIVE Well, tell me this.

    Uh-huh. DETECTIVE Everybody's describing his hands being up.

    You know what, that now, that's like because when, when, okay. From where my balcony is, it's another building right there. Urn, he, where his blood spill at, where he got shot at, he ran past that.

    DETECTIVE Uh-huh.

    Before he, you know got that DETECTIVE How'd he end up coming back?

    Yeah, that's why the, that's, I was just, uh, what I'm, what I'm saying, like I said, he must have got hit and he, he probably had his hands up when he got hit.

    DETECTIVE Oh, so you're saying that area

    That's why everybody-- DETECTIVE --that area's out

    keep saying that. DETECTIVE --of view?

    Yeah, uh, quite uh, out of view, but he ran past the, uh, where he got shot at.

    DETECTIVE Oh, so you're saying that area

    That's why everybody-- DETECTIVE --that area's out

    keep saying that. DETECTIVE Okay. So the, the part of the area where he got shot with those four?

    Yeah, he --he, yeah. Where he died at, he ran past that spot.

    DETECTIVE And came back to that spot?

    So obviously, I think when he got hit, that's when he probably raised his hands up, but he's then curled up--

    DETECTIVE Yeah.

    --just walking, took a couple steps back towards him, he probably had one hand up, but he had his hands down here and the officer let out about four more shots and he hit the ground just like how he's laying.

    DETECTIVE So you see him bent over.

    Yeah, just like that. DETECTIVE What I'm saying though is after he's bent over there is another four shots.

    Yeah, yeah, another four or three shots just like that. And everybody saying like he was already down and the officer let out a shot. I don't know, but I know what I saw, you know, before he hit the ground, he let out four more shots. I don't know, but I know what I saw. So --

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    before he hit the ground, he let off four more shots.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    So I can't remember DETECTIVE And where he

    if he said freeze or, or, or said something before he let out the last ones, but I know when he --

    DETECTIVE Did you hear Michael say anything before those last four

    No, I didn't, huh-uh. DETECTIVE Okay.

    No. DETECTIVE So, where he, where he was at in the street, is that where he fell? The the, like, nobody moved him?

    No, ain't nobody moved him or nothing.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Nothing so, uh -- DETECTIVE Nobody touched his body?

    Nobody touched him, uh, after, right after that, the officer just stood over it, like 5 feet away from him with his gun on his walkie-talkie thing.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    And called the first two or whatever.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    And that was it. DETECTIVE All right. Is there anything that I haven't asked you or that you feel you need to clarify?

    Uh, no, that's everything really. Everything that I saw.

    DETECTIVE Okay.

    Everything I saw. DETECTIVE All right. Urn, it's uh, 10:43. We're going to go ahead and conclude the interview.

    (This is the end of the interview Number 3.)

  • Okay. We're recording now and we've just finished playing the third statement of that is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit 24.

    So the final statement of , I shouldn't say final statement, but the fourth statement that we have is a recorded statement that was done by the FBI and I just received the disc of this last night, and so we do not have a transcript of this.

    So I will ask the court reporter to stop the recording as we begin to play the audio recording of by the FBI because of the identifying information, but I will ask you, if you will as best you can take down the statement and at a later date there is a transcript being prepared of this, so I will get that to you as soon as I can get that, but I do not have a transcript to pass out to you, the grand jurors, okay.

    So I'm going to give it to Sheila to put in the computer and at this time it is 9:50 a.m. If you can pause the recording and we will begin playing the fourth statement of

    So we are not recording, but the court reporter is taking down what's being said. Sheila is going to cue up the statement.

    (This is the recorded statement of Number 4.

    All right. Today is September 17th, 2014, at approximately 1:06 p.m. We are here today at the FBI St. Louis Building, 2222 Market Street. This is Special Agent with USA and the other trial attorney

    And we are here to interview, and if you could state your name?

    All right. Now, , I just want to explain to you, I know that, I believe, St. Louis County have spoken with you already?

    Yes. Okay. I will explain a little bit of a difference of our investigation here.

    Uh-huh. They're doing a homicide investigation, we are doing a civil rights violation.

    Okay. If this officer acted outside of his authority, okay?

    Okay. And so you're here as a witness voluntary. You, urn, you are free if you don't, you can end it at any time, but you are here and you are okay?

    Yes.

    (Inaudible) Yes. Okay. And you are okay with us recording it?

    Yes, ma'am. Okay. So before we get into the specifics, can I get some basic info from you?

    Uh-huh. Do you have a middle name. Yes Okay. Like ? Yes. Okay. And what's your date of birth?

    (redacted)

    (redacted) Yes. Social security number?

    (redacted) Can you give me your address?

    (redacted) Okay. And is there a good number if we need to contact you again?

    Yes. (redacted) Before we get started, do you have any questions for any of us?

    No, not at the moment. Okay. MS. So I just want to talk a little bit more about coming in.

    Uh-huh. MS. I just wanted, urn, just some preliminary things.

    Uh-huh. MS. We want to let you know that it is a crime to lie to the FBI federal agents.

    MS. Okay. I don't necessarily think that you're going to, but we like to inform everyone of that.

    Uh-huh. MS. And like just said, if at any point during the interview you don't want to, you don't want to talk any more, feel free to leave. It is voluntary, I know you came through security and all, you can feel free to say I don't want to talk any more, okay? And you're shaking your head yes.

    Yes. MS. It is an oral recording, so all your answers need to be out loud

    Yes. MS. So which brings to my next point, if you start nodding or whatever.

    I gotcha. MS. And it is totally fine if you nod, we will just try and correct you.

    I gotcha. MS. If we ask you a question and you answer, we're going to assume you understood the question. So if at any point one of us asked a question that says to you convoluted or confusing, let us know.

    Okay. MS. Our intent is not to confuse you.

    Okay. MS. Our intent is not to get you to answer a certain way.

    Okay. MS. So if you think we are trying to get you to go in a certain direction we are not. Make sure that you answer, what we want is the truth. What we want to do is figure out what happened.

    So, like I said, our intent is not to lead you in any one direction or the other.

    All right. MS. If we state something, it is not the way you told us or we mischaracterize, then let us know.

    Okay, all right, not a problem.

    Okay. If you want to take us through what you were doing on August 9th, 2014.

    Urn, I was at home. I actually just coming back from, urn, going out to eat with my family.

    Okay. And urn, come back home about 9:00 that morning. We all takes a nap. My fiancee wakes up and she tells me a friend is knocking at my door.

    I wakes up, which is now 11:00. He comes and, urn, I goes outside for a few minutes with him outside or whatever. And he, we went outside for not long, two, three, four or five minutes. So I happen to go back in, he leaves.

    It is getting what, about 11:45 now, urn, I was about to take a nap, and I hear an altercation outside.

    So I looks outside and, urn, I see like some kind of tussling going on in the window. Really not sure if, urn, if Mike Brown was punching on him or if the officer was grabbing on him, but something was going on through the window, it just didn't look right. So I glued my eyes to it.

    And all of the sudden, urn, I see, I also see his friend, his friend. Urn, he was, he was on the side of the car, he was on the front bumper on the passenger side, maybe 4, 5 feet away from him. And all of the sudden, like I said, they just takes off running.

    And when they takes off running, I see his friend, he runs behind a two door white car. He's ducking down behind the trunk of the car looking at the officer because he just immediately gets out of his vehicle and just started shooting at Mike Brown. Because he runs down, straight down the middle of the road.

    And, urn, when his friend ran behind the trunk of the car, he was looking at the officer thinking that the officer might cut off and walk to him and shoot him, but obviously, he is just taking like, you know, large steps in a shooting position, shooting directly at Mike Brown, and he walked past his friend.

    So at that moment right there, that just gave me enough time to run outside because like I said, I thought that he was going for his friend too, so I didn't want to miss that. So that was my time when he walked past that was my time to run outside.

    By the time I gets to the door, I notice I forgot my phone in the bedroom. So I go back, grab my phone and then I goes back to the front door, which it didn't take long, just seconds.

    So, urn, but about the time I gets outside, I see Mike Brown, he's now facing the officer, kind of, he bent down like he was hit in the stomach. He had both arms wrapped around his stomach and he's bent down like he was going down.

    So like I said, I thought he was already shot. And, urn, before he was going down, the officer lets out four or five more shots. And when he hit the ground, you know, that's when I see blood roll over or whatever.

    And, urn, the next closest I seen the officer, when he hit the ground, the officer, he was at least about 4 or 5 feet away from his body now on his walkie-talkie, still have his gun all over him making his call in. And, urn, and that's when my phone started recording maybe like two minutes right after when the first two officers come in.

    Okay. So that my phone cuts on and I started recording.

    Do you have that with you? Uh, yes, I do. Okay. Urn, is it out front. Yeah. Okay. I'll go grab it real quick.

    Okay. What I want you to do for me, can you circle where your apartment, or kind of make an X where your apartment is. If this is West Florissant and here is Canfield.

    Oh, okay. So that means, apartment building is this one right here.

    Okay. Where is -- You know what, urn, no, it actually be right here, this white one, this second one.

    White one? Yeah. Okay. And where in that building is your apartment?

    The second floor. Second floor. Okay, go ahead. Just so it is the second floor. Okay. So I want to go over this in a little bit of detail with you.

    Okay. So --oh, thank you. This is your cell phone.

    Okay. You said you were in your bedroom, correct?

    Yes. About to take a nap? Uh-huh. And you hear a altercation, what did you hear?

    Urn, just some kind of ruffling going on, I'm not even sure like what words exactly, but it is kind of ruffling, you know.

    Okay. And when you said you looked out the window and saw it, where was the car?

    The vehicle was over here, the vehicle was --

    You want to draw like a vehicle?

    Let me see, there was something right here. His vehicle was in the middle of the street sideways.

    Sideways. Diagonal. Diagonal. And where was the front of the car?

    Uh, what, the police vehicle? Uh-huh, yeah. That's --the front of the vehicle was like facing, like facing my apartment.

    Okay. Diagonal like. Okay. Like he was coming from this way basically.

    Okay. So, let me see. So it was facing, let's see, let's go like that, is that fair?

    Yeah. Okay. So facing this way. Could you see in the front, you said you couldn't tell whether or not he was punching him or whether the officer --

    Right, through the window. So could you see them? Yeah, I could see them. So your view was not obstructed --

    Yeah, I could see them clearly.

    Did you know it was an officer when you saw it or you just saw two people?

    No, I knew it was an officer. Okay. You know, still inside of his vehicle and somebody outside the vehicle doing some kind of tussling.

    Okay. And then you saw his friend who we know, did you know either Mike Brown --

    No, no, but I know I seen Mike Brown, uh, in the neighborhood.

    All right. So, I don't know him. Okay. MR. Where did you see him?

    Just walking with like another little group of people, whatever, just up and down the street over there or something.

    MR. Did you ever have occasion to talk to him?

    Huh-uh, no, I just, I remember faces, so.

    MS. Do you know the other people he would be walking in the group with?

    Huh-uh, no. Do you remember him because now of all the press or also because of his size, his height?

    Do I remember his size? Right. Did you take particular notice of him or?

    No, just like his clothes and, urn, that he was kind of like a buffer guy, because I know I'm slim.

    Uh-huh. So, urn, I just knew he was kind of a little bit buffer, you know.

    Okay. Kind of a little chubby like, so.

    Okay. So you see tussling and at this point when you see the two, whether, some --some sort of altercation.

    Uh-huh. At what point do you notice his friend, Dorian?

    Urn, his friend Dorian, he was clear, I could see him too. Like I said, he was in front of the passenger side vehicle, not too close, like 4 feet away or whatever.

    Uh-huh. So, yeah, at that time that's when I looked out the window and see that going on.

    Okay. While his friend was still in the front and was down by the window.

    Did you hear anything? You said you heard tussling.

    Yeah, just tussling, you know, not even a certain word, not even a certain word.

    Okay. MR. Did you hear voices?

    Yeah. MR. One voice or two?

    Urn, maybe two. Like I said, I just, just like some real tussling though. Even thought I was hearing lots of noises, maybe like hitting the door, you know. Something that just got my attention, but not certain words.

    How much, you said you saw them.

    Uh-huh. Did you see who necessarily was the initiator? Could you see where their bodies were positioned?

    Urn, was positioned? Urn, let me see, uh, his friend, he was facing the officer's vehicle.

    Okay. Where he was standing. Like I said, Mike Brown was definitely standing on the driver's side window.

    Okay. You know, facing the officer. Okay. And you're saying they were --as far as him and the officer.

    Uh-huh. You said they are tussling, how close, could you see how close in contact they were?

    Urn, there was definitely close enough. Urn, there was definitely close enough so, I just figured that Mike Brown, he could, I don't think that he was to like real up on the passenger door, it was just a little bit of space and I could just see something going on roughly through the window.

    MS. And just because the recording, you are kind of making like a fist punching back and forth motions; is that right?

    Uh-huh. MS. Yes? You say uh-huh.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, just yeah.

    MS. Okay. So what I'm going to ask you, you know, uh, the cell phone video that you gave to St. Louis County, is that the same cell phone video that you referred to before that is on your phone?

    Yeah, urn, the one I have when he walked off and came back into the picture, the same one, yes.

    MS. So in that video, the very first thing that you say, you are kind of, you remember you are talking while you are videoing?

    Uh-huh. MS. Okay. So one of the very first things that you say, that you said that the guy, the black guy just ran, ran up to the car and was punching on it.

    Yeah. MS. You said, the dude ran on the side, urn, you talking about the other one ran to the Monte Carlo, then he went back to the first guy. You said, the dude was all up in his car, you said up in his shit punching on him.

    Yeah, that's what I assume because, urn, younger people like that, I think that, you know, that don't want to go to jail, you know, just being young. So, you know, I assume a person like that will be punching an officer to get away or something like that.

    MS. Okay.

    So I automatically assume that was going on.

    MS. And that's fine, I just want to get to what you observed.

    Yeah. MS. So you saw this punching motion like you just made; is that correct?

    Yeah, but I mean, that's not exactly what I saw, that is just, you know because I just seen arms, you know, going through the windows.

    MS. Okay.

    The officer maybe had his arm. MS. You said the officer maybe, right?

    The officer maybe, yeah, yeah, it's a big maybe.

    MS. Okay. So we are 100% right, when you--you're letting us know when you're assuming versus what you saw, and that's exactly what we want you to do. But I'm going to try just to get a little detail. If you don't know something or don't remember, that's perfectly acceptable.

    Okay. MS. I don't want you to think that, you know, I'm trying to get you to say something you don't know. But I'm just trying to because I wasn't there to understand what you saw. So when you first give your interview to St. Louis County you said you saw arms exchanged. What do you mean by that?

    Urn, urn, I saw the officer's arms moving also and I saw Mike Brown's arms moving also.

    MS. Okay. You saw Mike Brown's arms go through the window.

    Yeah, obviously, it was. MS. Okay. I know you said obviously, I want to ask to make sure I understand, okay. Did you actually when you use the expression, you saw the dude was all up in his car and up in his shit, did Mike Brown, did you see Mike Brown actually approach the car?

    No, that's, that's the part that I just missed.

    MS. Okay.

    So. MS. So by the time you saw, you saw Mike Brown at the driver's side of the car with his arms through the window; is that correct?

    Yeah. MS. Okay. MR. You just then, you also, you've done the kind of moving your arms the way you saw Mike Brown do.

    Uh-huh. MR. You also saw a police officer when you are talking about some arms exchanged, you saw the police officer's arms?

    Yeah, it just kind of looked like, it just kind of looked like, like I said, if he's, an officer is in the car, I could just see his arms.

    MR. You have your arm bent to kind of a 90 degree angle in front of you?

    Yeah. So, yeah, if the window is right here, so I mean, that's, you know, that-- that's what I seen and I could see Mike Brown. You know, it just, you know, he could be doing anything, I'm not even saying punching. Just something through the window right there.

    MR. Just so I'm clear for the tape, did you have, you are talking about the police officer's arms, he is kind of turning and has his arm in front of him in kind of a --

    Like this moving. MR. Okay. Is that fair the way you describe?

    Yeah, yeah. MR. Okay. And you have, when you are describing Mike Brown's, you have his arms going back and forth coming

    Yeah, just back and forth, just back and forth, tussling.

    I want to impress upon you something.

    Uh-huh. That we have observed and it is throughout the investigation because I feel like you might be a little bit cautious in your, careful with your words in the sense of, we are aware on, the pressure that exist. Are you still living in Canfield?

    Yes. So, and I'm sure this is still a big deal. This is going to be a big deal for a very, very long time.

    Yes, it is, definitely. And you have been on the news, right?

    Uh-huh. And you have people come up to you and talk to you about that, people up in the community?

    Yeah, they, yeah, they seen me, they say they seen me and stuff like that.

    Okay. I also want you to understand you talking to us today, we don't go tell people we talk to you. It is completely confidential.

    Uh-huh. We take every precaution to protect your information. So this is not going to be out in the community, this is not going to be told, they're not go to say you snitched or you didn't fight for Mike Brown enough.

    We need 100 percent honesty and clarity, and we are not going to say, we are not on one side of the other, you know, this isn't for --for the search for the truth, okay?

    Right. So I want you to be confident that you can trust us and trust us to say that we're not going to make, we are not going to skew your testimony, okay?

    Okay. This is it, okay? Okay. This is what it is. I understand. Just so you guys know, I am very, very, nervous about everything since, since that day to now.

    Okay. Just to let you guys know. And that's completely normal to be nervous, nervous to talk to us, nervous in general. Is there anything in particular that you are nervous about more so than others?

    Urn, I'm, urn, I have been, I've just been just kind of scared, just kind of scared. Especially, you know, with the interviews. I stopped doing the interviews, I stopped after I did one with

    MS. Okay.

    --on a Friday. After that I felt sick, I started worrying.

    MR. Why is that?

    I don't know, I just started something, like something may happen, you know. I started thinking about, wait a minute, I done did quite a few interviews and I don't have a lawyer and why do everybody else have lawyers when they put out the very first interview, you know.

    I Googled my name and I seen a lot of stuff and I came across something, uh, that somebody put, I seen my picture, and it said like snitches get stitches, and then under it says something about people keep talking, they are going to get you know, we are going to do something to you.

    MR. What's that.

    I don't know. It's spelled You know, I'm not even sure what that is, but I've just been nervous and scared, and I have been letting everybody know about my time in and where I'm going and stuff like that.

    So, uh, but like I said, until this day, but it has been like two weeks, two, three weeks now, you know, no reporters at my house or nothing, no calls. You know, I'm kind of, I'm still in my regular day and going to work every day, taking care of my family and stuff, doing the same thing every day. I don't go nowhere, but I come home, you know, so.

    But I'm keeping it cool, but the ones like at work, I --I tell them because I don't show it neither. Like when I be at work, I have a smile on my face all the time, you know, I don't show it until they, I seen you on TV and want to talk about it and stuff like that. And I tell them how I feel, you know. So I'm just staying cool though, you know.

    Okay. But very nervous. This is the first time you are talking to us and we can treat that as a first time.

    Uh-huh. You are a, you are now a federal witness so, and with that comes certain intentions. So we want to make sure you are comfortable.

    So, I mean, we would like to offer you water, you are more than entitled to, if you want to get up and take and walk around and if that makes you feel more comfortable, but.

    I'm fine right now. MS. Yeah, and we want you to know, if at any point someone does intimidates you or let me be specific, to intimidates you or scares you or you feel somehow more nervous than general nervousness, you certainly should, urn, call I know you have her number here at the FBI. Because witness information is something apart from everything else. It could be a crime.

    So we are trying to be specific, okay, not some (inaudible)

    Okay. MS. General nervousness is normal, especially like in (inaudible) . If there is anything in particular that makes you nervous at all, we want to know that. So is there anything in particular or just a general feeling from Goggling yourself?

  • Urn, that, urn, one moment, urn, at the time when the audio came out about the shooting, let me see, like a week and a half earlier before that I stopped doing interviews, I didn't receive no calls, I was fine. I could go home and enjoy. So when that came out, I started getting calls again, they was at my house while I was at work trying to come up to my job. MR. And who were they that you are referring to? The reporters, news reporter. MR. Uh-huh. And urn, let's see, maybe the same day I knew it was on the tube that when it aired on the news and stuff like that, it was on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. I had to go pick up my fiancee about 9:30 that night to leave out of my house to go pick her up. I know that day I received a call from a reporter at six something. And another call at seven or eight something and then I got a text like just before 9:00. I had to put up my little son's car seat in the car. So I went outside to go and do that and as soon as, right when I gets to my car, a lady just runs up, it is dark now. And at this time I notice there is not a lot people out, I know that for sure, but she just runs up, just runs up, hey, can you do another interview, you know, but she was nice. She just ran up, you know, like it was, I was already scared at that point. But I just, I looks at a lot of movies and stuff and it just gets me thinking like, like if anybody was trying to at that time, you know, that was a good opportunity at that time. You know, I think of stuff like that. MS. Are you worried about your physical safety, is that what you are trying to say? I don't know. MS. If you are, that's fine. I really don't know, I really don't know. MS. Okay. Let's get back to, urn some more details that you can tell us. Okay, okay. I want to make it very clear to you though, we aren't going to talk. We aren't going to say we spoke with , I'm sorry, The only thing are people that actually go to the news. So we have a whole list of people that no one knows about because we don't tell them. So we want you to feel confident that you speak with someone today, that it stays with us. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. MS. What you hear on the news from a federal agent or the FBI, it didn't come from us. So if that happens, or you hear rumors, call us and find out because it may just be rumors. We are not going to go to the news ever, all right? Okay. MS. So if you start hearing rumors, and you start thinking something's up, call and find out because I'm telling you right now we're not going to go to the news. Okay, all right. MS. Okay. So we were talking about this, urn, the arms exchange. You are watching this from your window; is that right? Yes. MS. Do you have blinds on your window? Yeah. MS. Were you watching through the blinds? I had the blinds bent a little bit. MR. Okay. MS. So they horizontal or vertical blinds. Like that? Yeah, the straight ones that close. MS. Okay. So you had the vertical blinds. Did you have to move your hand to watch it? Yeah, I had to bend down. MS. Gotcha, okay. So while you are watching this, at some point do you yell out to Uh-huh. MS. Do you yell out to at some point. Yeah, I yell out to her, I think it was just about the time that I notice that the officer went past Michael Brown's friend. MS. Okay. So let's back up. So the friend that you're watching, as soon as these arms are exchanged back and forth out the car. Uh-huh. MS. Urn, what happens, did you observe that end of the tussle? They just takes off running. MS. Okay. They just takes off running. MS. They, being the, the two boys? Yeah, two boys yeah, they just takes off running at the same time. MS. Do you know now their names? Urn, Mike Brown and uh -- MS. If you don't know his name, that's fine. How would you describe him? I know he had dreads. MS. Okay. So it is Mike Brown and the guy with the dreads? Yeah. MS. Okay. So at this point, urn, you said you see Mike Brown and the guy with the dreads take off through there? Uh, yeah, urn, like I said, I'm on different sides though. Mike Brown is on the driver's side of the car, so he takes off behind the vehicle directly in the middle of the road. MS. Okay. And his friend, there was a parked vehicle, and maybe a little bit behind the police cruiser. When you point to it, will that help you a little bit? The vehicle was leaving right there. Okay. It was actually two buildings. Okay. Two buildings. I would say his friend was in the front and he runs, like I said, to the very first one to the trunk of it because the officer gets out of the car and started shooting and his shooting stance and taking large steps. I don't remember seeing him running. I'm sorry I cut you off. So you see this guy with the dreads, where does he actually go. He runs, yeah, he runs behind the trunk of the white car, the first one. MS. And when he's at the car, what does he do? He looked at the officer to make sure the officer's not coming to him. Because like each shot that went off, he was like, you know, ducking each time.

  • You saw him ducking. So you're saying that what (inaudible), so can I say you are assuming what he's doing?

  • He looked at the officer to make sure the officer's not coming to him. Because like each shot that went off, he was like, you know, ducking each time.

    You saw him ducking. So

  • He runs, yeah, he runs behind the trunk of the white car, the first one.

    MS. And when he's at the car, what does he do?

    He looked at the officer to

  • I'm sorry I cut you off. So you see this guy with the dreads, where does he actually go.

    He runs, yeah, he runs behind

  • Two buildings. I would say his friend was in the front and he runs, like I said, to the very first one to the trunk of it because the officer gets out of the car and started shooting and his shooting stance and taking large steps. I don't remember seeing him running.

    I'm sorry I cut you off. So

  • Okay. Two buildings. I would say

  • It was actually two buildings. Okay.

  • Okay. It was actually two buildings.

  • The vehicle was leaving right there.

    Okay.

  • When you point to it, will that help you a little bit?

    The vehicle was leaving right

  • And his friend, there was a parked vehicle, and maybe a little bit behind the police cruiser.

    When you point to it, will

  • Uh, yeah, urn, like I said, I'm on different sides though. Mike Brown is on the driver's side of the car, so he takes off behind the vehicle directly in the middle of the road.

    MS. Okay.

    And his friend, there was a

  • Yeah. MS. Okay. So at this point, urn, you said you see Mike Brown and the guy with the dreads take off through there?

    Uh, yeah, urn, like I said, I'm

  • I know he had dreads. MS. Okay. So it is Mike Brown and the guy with the dreads?

    Yeah.

  • Urn, Mike Brown and uh -- MS. If you don't know his name, that's fine. How would you describe him?

    I know he had dreads.

  • Yeah, two boys yeah, they just takes off running at the same time.

    MS. Do you know now their names?

    Urn, Mike Brown and uh --

  • They just takes off running. MS. They, being the, the two boys?

    Yeah, two boys yeah, they just

  • They just takes off running. MS. Okay.

    They just takes off running.

  • Uh-huh. MS. Urn, what happens, did you observe that end of the tussle?

    They just takes off running.

  • Yeah, I yell out to her, I think it was just about the time that I notice that the officer went past Michael Brown's friend.

    MS. Okay. So let's back up. So the friend that you're watching, as soon as these arms are exchanged back and forth out the car.

    Uh-huh.

  • Uh-huh. MS. Do you yell out to at some point.

    Yeah, I yell out to her, I

  • Yeah, I had to bend down. MS. Gotcha, okay. So while you are watching this, at some point do you yell out to

    Uh-huh.

  • Yeah, the straight ones that close.

    MS. Okay. So you had the vertical blinds. Did you have to move your hand to watch it?

    Yeah, I had to bend down.

  • I had the blinds bent a little bit.

    MR. Okay. MS. So they horizontal or vertical blinds. Like that?

    Yeah, the straight ones that

  • Yeah. MS. Were you watching through the blinds?

    I had the blinds bent a little

  • Yes. MS. Do you have blinds on your window?

    Yeah.

  • Okay, all right. MS. Okay. So we were talking about this, urn, the arms exchange. You are watching this from your window; is that right?

    Yes.

  • Okay. MS. So if you start hearing rumors, and you start thinking something's up, call and find out because I'm telling you right now we're not going to go to the news.

    Okay, all right.

  • Okay. MS. What you hear on the news from a federal agent or the FBI, it didn't come from us. So if that happens, or you hear rumors, call us and find out because it may just be rumors. We are not going to go to the news ever, all right?

    Okay.

  • I want to make it very clear to you though, we aren't going to talk. We aren't going to say we spoke with , I'm sorry,

    The only thing are people that actually go to the news. So we have a whole list of people that no one knows about because we don't tell them. So we want you to feel confident that you speak with someone today, that it stays with us. Does that make sense?

    Yeah.

  • Okay, okay. I want to make it very clear

  • I really don't know, I really don't know.

    MS. Okay. Let's get back to, urn some more details that you can tell us.

    Okay, okay.

  • I don't know. MS. If you are, that's fine.

    I really don't know, I really

  • And urn, let's see, maybe the same day I knew it was on the tube that when it aired on the news and stuff like that, it was on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. I had to go pick up my fiancee about 9:30 that night to leave out of my house to go pick her up. I know that day I received a call from a reporter at six something. And another call at seven or eight something and then I got a text like just before 9:00.

    I had to put up my little son's car seat in the car. So I went outside to go and do that and as soon as, right when I gets to my car, a lady just runs up, it is dark now. And at this time I notice there is not a lot people out, I know that for sure, but she just runs up, just runs up, hey,

    can you do another interview, you know, but she was nice. She just ran up, you know, like it was, I was already scared at that point.

    But I just, I looks at a lot of movies and stuff and it just gets me thinking like, like if anybody was trying to at that time, you know, that was a good opportunity at that time.

    You know, I think of stuff like that. MS. Are you worried about your physical safety, is that what you are trying to say?

    I don't know.

  • The reporters, news reporter. MR. Uh-huh.

    And urn, let's see, maybe the

  • Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is what he was doing, that is what he was doing. MS. He was ducking, right? Yeah. MS. And he's now behind the trunk of the car; is that correct? Yes, uh-huh. MS. And you're able to watch him do that? Yeah, I clearly saw him. He's ducked down looking at the officer is like each shot that went off, he was like bam and going around the building to the passenger side. And then I notice that the door was opened, I don't know how wide the door was open, but each shot that went off, he was kind of like bam, going over to the side watching him but then I said that I noticed he went past him. MS. Let me ask you. When you were watching the guy with the dreads behind the vehicle (inaudible) as he is going to the passenger side, did you then leave from your view as he's going to passenger side? No, no, no, I could see him clear, he didn't hop in until, like he didn't hop into the vehicle until, uh, I think that he noticed that his friend now did hit the ground. MS. Did you actually see him hop in the vehicle. No, I really didn't because, urn, I more, when he past, I more started focusing on the guy that he was shooting at now. MS. Okay. So let's back up. Uh-huh. MS. So the two guys start running? Right. MS. They're at a different point, they're at different areas of the street, right? Yes. MS. Okay. Your intention is initially on who? It is on both of them, it's -- it's on both of them. MS. Okay. So, urn, like I said, when --I didn't want to leave out that window, I just seen an officer shooting, and that gets me like, hum. I'm just thinking that he was going for his friend also. MS. And you're assuming that? Yeah, I was assuming that, but I kept my eyes on both of them. I see one running straight down the middle, this one is going for the very first car that he sees. MS. So you see Michael run down the street and you see the guy with the dreads run down to the car? Yeah, the guy with the dreads, he was the main focus as I'm still noticing that the officer is shooting straight, but I'm looking at him is because I'm thinking that the officer, like, uh, (inaudible) there is a pause, cause there is like a pause by the time he went past this time. So there is a pause right there during his shooting when, like I said, I was thinking that he was going to go to his friend and shoot him. That's why I was main focusing on him at that point. MS. So at that point when Mike Brown starts running, your main focus is on the guy with the dreads? Yeah. MS. And when you see the officer get out of the car, you're assuming that he's going after the guy with the dreads? No, no, no, no, I knew he was going for Mike Brown, but I kept my eyes on all of them. MS. Okay. Mainly that I see the guy with the dreads looking at the officer and the officer, he --he goes past him. I'm--I'm sure that the officer see him where he ran to. MS. You are sure of that why? Because when he gets out of the car, the guy with the dreads, he was already in front of his vehicle, he runs to the trunk of the first car that he's seeing. He is looking over the trunk, ducked down, I'm sure that he saw him. MS. Okay. I'm sure of that because MR. Now, that's important, okay. That's a good example, I mean, obviously you can't be sure of what someone else saw, right? Okay, okay, right. MR. That's just an example, just be sure that we are talking about what you actually laid eyes on and what you saw, okay? Okay, okay. MS. So you actually saw the guy (inaudible) the police officer? Uh-huh. MS. Is that right? Yes. MS. Did you see the police officer look over at the guy with the dreads? Urn --no. MS. Okay. And so now you have, urn, how soon after if you saw, how soon after when the boys start running did the police officer run immediately over or get out of the car? No, he gets out of the car immediately. MS. Okay. Immediately. Cause as soon as he breaks off just about when, like I said, Mike Brown gets past his vehicle and to the back of it, and he gets out immediately and starts shooting. MS. So the police officer gets out and Mike Brown goes past his vehicle. Yeah, just --just about time, urn, and a little bit before that. MS. Okay. And then you said the police officer, did he have his gun out? Yes. MS. How did he have his gun pointed? Directly like in shooting position. MS. Okay. And you had your eye on that and you're watching? Yeah MS. And the guy with the dreads? Yeah, at the same time so. Like I said, urn, mainly I didn't want to miss anything like that, you know with my own eyes, but I see it on the movies, but like I said, uh, the guy with the dreads, he was looking at the officer as he was walking by shooting. That's while I was still in the window and I know that he went past him, that's when I went outside. MS. So you say the officer was shooting, how do you know he was shooting at that time? Cause that's when I heard the gunshots when he's out the vehicle, the moment he gets out the vehicle. MS. So what did you do when you heard gunshots? I'm still in the window and, urn, he's shooting, he's walking past his own vehicle to the back of it. And urn, like I said, the first vehicle that the guy with the dreads run to, that vehicle is a little bit behind the police cruiser. So he walks past that vehicle to where his friend ran to and walked past that and that's when my time was to run outside then. MS. Okay. When you say he, I'm not sure who you are talking about. (inaudible) The guy with the dreads. MS. The guy with the dreads, okay. Uh-huh. MS. I just want to be clear. So you decide to do the window after you see the police start shooting, but did he stop shooting at some point? Urn, I think there was a pause in that when he past his friend, when he past the vehicle to where the guy with the dreads. MS. Okay. When he past the vehicle. MS. When the police officer past the vehicle with the guy with the dreads, that's when there was a pause in the shooing? Yeah. MS. Okay. And that's when you Yeah, that's when I runs outside, that's when I runs outside and when I gets outside, now Mike Brown is facing him instead of have his back towards him. MS. Okay. Let me ask you this though. Uh-huh. MS. Before you went outside, you said earlier you yell to Yeah, I yell to for her to go outside because they shooting. That was cause I going outside at the same time, so I say don't go outside cause they're shooting. That's when I notice that he past his friend at that time, so that just gave me enough time to go outside at that time. MS. Why did you want to go outside when there is gunshots being fired? I mean, like I said, I never seen nothing like that. You never seen nothing like that. I know the direction was going straight down the street going toward somebody that just ran from the vehicle. MS. Okay. So. MS. So by the time you got outside, you said Mike Brown is now facing the officer; is in that correct? Yeah, uh-huh. MS. And tell us what you saw at that point? Urn, the moment I gets outside, Mike Brown is now facing the officer and he got both his arms on his stomach, like bent down. So I'm thinking like he's now hit in the stomach somewhere. MS. Okay. You are assuming that now? Yeah, I was assuming, I was assuming that he was hit down here somewhere cause he is like this, urn, curled up. I remember him taking like two small steps because he kind of ran past his death spot where he passed away at, he kind of ran past that. When he turned around, he got his arms on his stomach, he bent down, I remember him taking like two small steps cause he was going like stumbling. MS. Okay. So, uh, and the officer lets out four or five more shots at him and he hit the ground. MS. So, just so that I will be a little more clear, I know I keep asking the same things. When you go outside, you see Michael Brown facing the officer and you were demonstrating, would you mind standing up and describing where his hands were at in the area for the recording? Yeah, so when I gets outside he is now like this. MS. And you are actually, and so for the recording, you are now Michael Brown, right? Yeah. MS. And you are saying he is almost like -- Like bent down, like he was going down. MS. Okay.

  • Like he was going down. He took like two small steps, like he was stumbling.

    MS. And you have both hands across your stomach and your waist; is that correct?

  • Like bent down, like he was going down.

    MS. Okay.

    Like he was going down. He

  • Yeah. MS. And you are saying he is almost like --

    Like bent down, like he was

  • Yeah, so when I gets outside he is now like this.

    MS. And you are actually, and so for the recording, you are now Michael Brown, right?

    Yeah.

  • So, uh, and the officer lets out four or five more shots at him and he hit the ground.

    MS. So, just so that I will be a little more clear, I know I keep asking the same things. When you go outside, you see Michael Brown facing the officer and you were demonstrating, would you mind standing up and describing where his hands were at in the area for the recording?

    Yeah, so when I gets outside

  • Yeah, I was assuming, I was assuming that he was hit down here somewhere cause he is like this, urn, curled up.

    I remember him taking like two small steps because he kind of ran past his death spot where he passed away at, he kind of ran past that. When he turned around, he got his arms on his stomach, he bent down, I remember him taking like two small steps cause he was going like stumbling.

    MS. Okay.

    So, uh, and the officer lets

  • Urn, the moment I gets outside, Mike Brown is now facing the officer and he got both his arms on his stomach, like bent down. So I'm thinking like he's now hit in the stomach somewhere.

    MS. Okay. You are assuming that now?

    Yeah, I was assuming, I was

  • Yeah, uh-huh. MS. And tell us what you saw at that point?

    Urn, the moment I gets outside,

  • So. MS. So by the time you got outside, you said Mike Brown is now facing the officer; is in that correct?

    Yeah, uh-huh.

  • I mean, like I said, I never seen nothing like that. You never seen nothing like that. I know the direction was going straight down the street going toward somebody that just ran from the vehicle.

    MS. Okay.

    So.

  • Yeah, I yell to for her to go outside because they shooting. That was cause I going outside at the same time, so I say don't go outside cause they're shooting. That's when I notice that he past his friend at that time, so that just gave me enough time to go outside at that time.

    MS. Why did you want to go outside when there is gunshots being fired?

    I mean, like I said, I never

  • Uh-huh. MS. Before you went outside, you said earlier you yell to

    Yeah, I yell to for her

  • Yeah, that's when I runs outside, that's when I runs outside and when I gets outside, now Mike Brown is facing him instead of have his back towards him.

    MS. Okay. Let me ask you this though.

    Uh-huh.

  • Yeah. MS. Okay. And that's when you

    Yeah, that's when I runs

  • When he past the vehicle. MS. When the police officer past the vehicle with the guy with the dreads, that's when there was a pause in the shooing?

    Yeah.

  • Urn, I think there was a pause in that when he past his friend, when he past the vehicle to where the guy with the dreads.

    MS. Okay.

    When he past the vehicle.

  • Uh-huh. MS. I just want to be clear. So you decide to do the window after you see the police start shooting, but did he stop shooting at some point?

    Urn, I think there was a pause

  • The guy with the dreads. MS. The guy with the dreads, okay.

    Uh-huh.

  • I'm still in the window and, urn, he's shooting, he's walking past his own vehicle to the back of it. And urn, like I said, the first vehicle that the guy with the dreads run to, that vehicle is a little bit behind the police cruiser.

    So he walks past that vehicle to where his friend ran to and walked past that and that's when my time was to run outside then.

    MS. Okay. When you say he, I'm not sure who you are talking about. (inaudible)

    The guy with the dreads.

  • Cause that's when I heard the gunshots when he's out the vehicle, the moment he gets out the vehicle.

    MS. So what did you do when you heard gunshots?

    I'm still in the window and,

  • Yeah, at the same time so. Like I said, urn, mainly I didn't want to miss anything like that, you know with my own eyes, but I see it on the movies, but like I said, uh, the guy with the dreads, he was looking at the officer as he was walking by shooting. That's while I was still in the window and I know that he went past him, that's when I went outside.

    MS. So you say the officer was shooting, how do you know he was shooting at that time?

    Cause that's when I heard the

  • Yeah MS. And the guy with the dreads?

    Yeah, at the same time so.

  • Directly like in shooting position.

    MS. Okay. And you had your eye on that and you're watching?

    Yeah

  • Yes. MS. How did he have his gun pointed?

    Directly like in shooting

  • Yeah, just --just about time, urn, and a little bit before that.

    MS. Okay. And then you said the police officer, did he have his gun out?

    Yes.

  • Immediately. Cause as soon as he breaks off just about when, like I said, Mike Brown gets past his vehicle and to the back of it, and he gets out immediately and starts shooting.

    MS. So the police officer gets out and Mike Brown goes past his vehicle.

    Yeah, just --just about time,

  • No, he gets out of the car immediately.

    MS. Okay.

    Immediately. Cause as soon as

  • Urn --no. MS. Okay. And so now you have, urn, how soon after if you saw, how soon after when the boys start running did the police officer run immediately over or get out of the car?

    No, he gets out of the car

  • Yes. MS. Did you see the police officer look over at the guy with the dreads?

    Urn --no.

  • Uh-huh. MS. Is that right?

    Yes.

  • Okay, okay. MS. So you actually saw the guy

    (inaudible) the police officer?

    Uh-huh.

  • Okay, okay, right. MR. That's just an example, just be sure that we are talking about what you actually laid eyes on and what you saw, okay?

    Okay, okay.

  • I'm sure of that because MR. Now, that's important, okay. That's a good example, I mean, obviously you can't be sure of what someone else saw, right?

    Okay, okay, right.

  • Because when he gets out of the car, the guy with the dreads, he was already in front of his vehicle, he runs to the trunk of the first car that he's seeing. He is looking over the trunk, ducked down, I'm sure that he saw him.

    MS. Okay.

    I'm sure of that because

  • Mainly that I see the guy with the dreads looking at the officer and the officer, he --he goes past him. I'm--I'm sure that the officer see him where he ran to.

    MS. You are sure of that why?

    Because when he gets out of

  • No, no, no, no, I knew he was going for Mike Brown, but I kept my eyes on all of them.

    MS. Okay.

    Mainly that I see the guy with

  • Yeah. MS. And when you see the officer get out of the car, you're assuming that he's going after the guy with the dreads?

    No, no, no, no, I knew he was

  • Yeah, the guy with the dreads, he was the main focus as I'm still noticing that the officer is shooting straight, but I'm looking at him is because I'm thinking that the officer, like, uh,

    (inaudible) there is a pause, cause there is like a pause by the time he went past this time. So there is a pause right there during his shooting when, like I said, I was thinking that he was going to go to his friend and shoot him. That's why I was main focusing on him at that point.

    MS. So at that point when Mike Brown starts running, your main focus is on the guy with the dreads?

    Yeah.

  • Yeah, I was assuming that, but I kept my eyes on both of them. I see one running straight down the middle, this one is going for the very first car that he sees.

    MS. So you see Michael run down the street and you see the guy with the dreads run down to the car?

    Yeah, the guy with the dreads,

  • So, urn, like I said, when --I didn't want to leave out that window, I just seen an officer shooting, and that gets me like, hum. I'm just thinking that he was going for his friend also.

    MS. And you're assuming that?

    Yeah, I was assuming that, but

  • It is on both of them, it's -- it's on both of them.

    MS. Okay.

    So, urn, like I said, when --I

  • Yes. MS. Okay. Your intention is initially on who?

    It is on both of them, it's --

  • Right. MS. They're at a different point, they're at different areas of the street, right?

    Yes.

  • Uh-huh. MS. So the two guys start running?

    Right.

  • No, I really didn't because, urn, I more, when he past, I more started focusing on the guy that he was shooting at now.

    MS. Okay. So let's back up.

    Uh-huh.

  • No, no, no, I could see him clear, he didn't hop in until, like he didn't hop into the vehicle until, uh, I think that he noticed that his friend now did hit the ground.

    MS. Did you actually see him hop in the vehicle.

    No, I really didn't because,

  • Yeah, I clearly saw him. He's ducked down looking at the officer is like each shot that went off, he was like bam and going around the building to the passenger side. And then I notice that the door was opened, I don't know how wide the door was open, but each shot that went off, he was kind of like bam, going over to the side watching him but then I said that I noticed he went past him.

    MS. Let me ask you. When you were watching the guy with the dreads behind the vehicle

    (inaudible) as he is going to the passenger side, did you then leave from your view as he's going to passenger side?

    No, no, no, I could see him

  • Yes, uh-huh. MS. And you're able to watch him do that?

    Yeah, I clearly saw him. He's

  • Yeah. MS. And he's now behind the trunk of the car; is that correct?

    Yes, uh-huh.

  • Yeah. So, urn, so when I seen that, urn, that's when the last four or five shots come out. And he drops just like how his body is and, you know. Let me see, yeah, one more, yeah, I mean, they both, yeah, he just was like how he fell. I think one arm fell, something like that. MS. You are showing one arm is down on his side -- Yeah, when he hit the ground. MS. Let me just be correct for the recording. Do you know whether it was his left or his right or you just, you just know one hand was across the stomach, waist and the other one was down at his side? Both of them was on his stomach and when he gave out the last shots, his body just boom. MS. Okay. And you're showing one arm across his stomach and the other arm to his side? Yeah. MS. Okay. And by the time, and you say, when you saw was the officer firing those final shots; is that right? Huh-uh, yes. MS. Okay. So I think that is where the pause come from. MS. Okay. You can have a seat, thank you. So your memory is some shots, when you are peeking out, looking out the window through the blinds. Yes. MS. And then there are shots right that you saw right before he fell; is that right? Yes. MS. Was out there, you were on the balcony at that time? Yes. MS. Were your kids with you? Uh, yeah. MS. How many of them are there? Uh, there was three at the time. MS. Okay. How old are they? , and MS. Okay. And so, urn, did you, when you ran outside, you said initially, we're talking about pause, you went outside, you realized you forgot your phone and you went back and got your phone, and the kids come out at the same exact time as you? Yeah, like at the same time, at the same time. MS. Did you grab it? Did you have any kids with you or did they follow you? No, urn, during the, she lets the kids come outside at that time. MS. Okay. I remember she called them to come outside. MS. So did all three of them kind of walk out with you, is that what's going on or what?

  • I think they came out a little bit after me cause she called them outside.

    MS. Okay.

  • I remember she called them to come outside.

    MS. So did all three of them kind of walk out with you, is that what's going on or what?

    I think they came out a little

  • No, urn, during the, she lets the kids come outside at that time.

    MS. Okay.

    I remember she called them to

  • Yeah, like at the same time, at the same time.

    MS. Did you grab it? Did you have any kids with you or did they follow you?

    No, urn, during the, she

  • , and MS. Okay. And so, urn, did you, when you ran outside, you said initially, we're talking about pause, you went outside, you realized you forgot your phone and you went back and got your phone, and the kids come out at the same exact time as you?

    Yeah, like at the same time,

  • Uh, there was three at the time.

    MS. Okay. How old are they?

    , and

  • Uh, yeah. MS. How many of them are there?

    Uh, there was three at the

  • Yes. MS. Were your kids with you?

    Uh, yeah.

  • Yes. MS. Was out there, you were on the balcony at that time?

    Yes.

  • Yes. MS. And then there are shots right that you saw right before he fell; is that right?

    Yes.

  • So I think that is where the pause come from.

    MS. Okay. You can have a seat, thank you.

    So your memory is some shots, when you are peeking out, looking out the window through the blinds.

    Yes.

  • Huh-uh, yes. MS. Okay.

    So I think that is where the

  • Yeah. MS. Okay. And by the time, and you say, when you saw was the officer firing those final shots; is that right?

    Huh-uh, yes.

  • Both of them was on his stomach and when he gave out the last shots, his body just boom.

    MS. Okay. And you're showing one arm across his stomach and the other arm to his side?

    Yeah.

  • Yeah, when he hit the ground. MS. Let me just be correct for the recording. Do you know whether it was his left or his right or you just, you just know one hand was across the stomach, waist and the other one was down at his side?

    Both of them was on his

  • Let's stop there because I think we're all kind of restless. You probably need a break.

  • It is 10:29, and we've stopped the recording of the fourth interview of

    It looks like it is about halfway through and it has been going on for quite a bit. So this will be probably a pretty good place to take about a five, ten minute break, get up, stretch, go to the bathroom. And so at this time, we will pause the recording, take a few minutes to have a break before we resume.

    (Recess)

  • All right. It is 10:44, all 12 grand jurors are back in the room after a brief break. We are going to resume the playing of the audio statement of the fourth statement of

    And at this time I will ask the court reporter to pause the audio recording that we are making and he will continue to transcribe or take down the statement as best he can that is being played for grand jurors, which is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 23.

    MS. And then once Michael Brown fell, the officer, did the officer go near the body at all?

    Yeah, urn, not too close, maybe 4, 5 feet away. He kind of standing over him, you know, with his gun out on his talkie thing.

    MS. You are pointing to his shoulder, so you saw that?

    Yeah, I definitely seen him, you know, like this, you know, with his gun out still.

    MS. Okay. And you are demonstrating talking into the mike on his shoulder; is that right?

    Yes. MS. Okay. You didn't see the officer touch the body or do anything more with him?

    No. MS. Then afterwards, what did the officer do?

    Urn, huh, huh, huh. I think, uh, let me see at that time I was messing with my phone, turning it on. So, I think, I think I haven't really noticed it until the other two cops came.

    MS. Okay.

    I just notice like wait, a cop just shot somebody and I'm still turning on my phone because it was off.

    MS. Okay.

    Let me see. Yeah, I can't remember just like before the other, the first two officers came, and like what he was doing at that time like right after he did the shooting or whatever. I know when he got done, he was standing over him on his thing.

    MS. On his radio --

    I can't remember if he walked to his car first or he came back before the other two came.

    MS. Let me ask you this, were you at all trying to get your phone to work while, before Mike Brown went to the ground while this whole thing was happening, were you trying to get your phone to work?

    Oh, no, I was already outside, like it didn't come on until the first two officers came.

    MS. I understand that.

    Uh-huh. MS. Did you try to get it to work before then.

    Oh, no, huh-uh. MS. No, okay. Urn, and just going back, you said you saw his arms crossed, across his stomach area, did you notice anything about his hands?

    No, no, I just thought he was shot in the chest or the stomach or something.

    MS. As far as your vantage point from what you saw, his arms and his hands were across his stomach, correct?

    Uh-huh. MS. Is that a yes?

    Yes, yes. MS. At any point did you see his hands in the air?

    No, I didn't, I didn't. MS. Okay. When you decided that you were going to go from the window to the outside to the balcony because there was a pause, how did you know that that would be a good opportunity to go outside?

    Because, I mean, like just seeing an officer with a gun just shoot, just, you know, just anybody shooting period, you know. I just see him gets out of the car shooting, you know, and I'm paying attention to the guy with the dreads. Cause I'm thinking that he could just easily walk over and shoot him dead. Like I didn't want to miss that or something like that, you know.

    So it is just, that was just my timing right there like when I notice that he walked past the car and that was just my timing right there bam, he just got done like with a pause or something because I said when I gets outside, it was still like three, four, maybe five more shots.

    MS. Okay. And what happened when you got outside, what was the kid with the dreads doing?

    Urn MS. Did you see him?

    You know, I got my eye, I really kind of stopped paying attention to him. Because as I said, I did notice that the driver, passenger side door was open on that car, but I stopped paying attention to him so, and I started focusing on Mike Brown cause now he's dead, and the officer started walking towards him with the gun.

    So, urn, let's see, yeah, that's it about that one, yeah.

    MS. I notice in some of your previous statements you had said that the kid had just got in the car and the car had driven off.

    Yeah, urn, I, I, I, I think that was maybe right when he saw his friend die, you know, hit the ground.

    MS. So my next question is, did you actually see him, the kid with the dreads, get in the car or did you assume he got in the car?

    I, I, I assume, I assume that because the car was gone right after that, the car was gone.

    MS. And where were --and did the kid with the dreads (inaudible) where you could see him?

    No, I figure that he hopped in and asked to pull off.

    MS. Right. You figured that, right?

    Yeah, you know, I kind of stopped paying attention when he walked past him.

    MS. Okay, but you actually saw for yourself, the last thing you saw was the kid kind of ducking around that car?

    Uh-huh. MS. And moving?

    Yeah, ducking. And about time he gets to the passenger side door because it was open, about the time he got to that, I said the officer passed him, so that's when I came outside and started going on Mike Brown now.

    MS. Okay. MR. So the last time you seen the guy with the dreads, he's headed for the back of that car forward

    Yeah. MR. --towards the passenger door?

    Yeah, yeah, ducking down looking at the officer all through that time.

    MR. But he is heading away from Mike Brown and away from the officer, the opposite direction?

    Yeah, yeah. MR. Okay, all right. And, urn, so at that time you are watching the officer.

    Uh-huh. MR. And the guy with the dreads and Mike Brown, I think you previously said, Mike Brown was about 25 feet

    Yeah. MR. --past where that was. So at that point you're not watching Mike Brown, you're watching the police officer and the guy with the dreads?

    Yeah, urn, cause Mike Brown, he kind of ran some distance at that time.

    Was he in your field of view, like could you see him from when you were in your bedroom looking out the window, were you able to see him?

    Uh, Mike Brown, I couldn't see Mike Brown, cause of, cause of the way, I could see his death spot out of my bedroom window, but as I say, he ran past just a little bit.

    Past -- You know, that would be right there, that building, I think it is that one right there, that building right there. He was out of my view at that time, but the officer past his friend, that was my opportunity to go outside.

    MR. And when, okay. So he, Mike Brown left your view there.

    At that moment. MR. You don't know, so then you don't know what's he doing?

    Exactly. MR. Okay, thank you. MS. And the next time he came into your view is when you went outside and you are on the balcony and you saw?

    Uh-huh. MS. Him facing the officer and as you described, his hands across his stomach.

    Yes, and like I said, they were still, 25, I don't even know my measurements good enough.

    That's fine. MS. We don't need --

    It was some distance. MS. Were you able to hear any words coming from either the officer or Michael Brown?

    No, no, not at all. MS. Okay. Did you see their mouths moving at all?

    Umm, no. Just the only time, they got me, that he was talking on his thing.

    MS. Right.

    You know, I'm not sure what he was saying, but he's talking.

    MS. You are referring because the audio recording that you are referring, the officer was talking into or his radio on his shoulder, correct?

    Yes, yes, yes. MS. Okay. I just want to ask you, after it all happened and you were on your cell phone, you're recording?

    Uh-huh. MS. Can you just talk about who was around you? I know you said you were narrating it, there are people in the background.

    Yeah, like I said, it was a guy on that parking lot already in a burgundy, maybe a burgundy Bonneville. Him and his girlfriend they was already sitting out there and they were just talking.

    And I remember him saying something that the officer reversed back and ran over his foot, but I remember him saying like on a recording that I assumed that he just ran into the car and got to punching on him or whatever, you know, but he said that he ran over, that he reversed back and ran over his foot and tried to grab him through the car window.

    MS. Do you know this person?

    No, I never seen him before. MS. Have you seen him since?

    No. MS. When this discussion is happening, this was occurring on ground level?

    Yes. MS. So the recording you provided St. Louis County, was it from the balcony?

    Yeah, it was from the balcony. MS. Okay. So just help me understand that. When I watch that recording, it seemed like, and what you just told me was on the recording. The person in that car, that burgundy car down below talking up to you?

    Uh, you know, I can't even remember. I don't know if he came up or not, like on the steps wise. So I really can't remember. I really can't remember.

    MS. You say a burgundy car?

    Yeah, yeah, I know that when I went out there onto ground level, that's when I was really talking to him, but I'm trying to remember like if at the time when I was recording on my balcony, if he walked up to the steps, cause I do remember that, you know, so I really can't.

    When you say balcony, I'm sorry, I want to clarify for my own, is it right outside your front door or a door outside of your living room.

    Yeah, it is right outside the front door.

    Okay. So steps are right in front of your door?

    Yeah, right in front of my door, the balcony is right there.

    Gotcha. Yeah. MR. You indicated initially when you went to leave your window and go out to the balcony, that you had to double back to get your phone.

    Uh-huh. MR. Where was your phone?

    My phone was in the bedroom. MR. So you went from your bedroom to the door?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a matter of fact, my phone was right there, right there by the door of my bedroom. I have a little stand right there, so I ran that, grab that and went back to the front door.

    MR. All right.

    So I was headed, I took some large steps too, I don't think I missed too much from that.

    So when you said you saw the officer get out of the car.

    Uh-huh. Did you see what kind of car, vehicle, he was driving, what type of vehicle rather?

    Urn, it was definitely a truck, the Tahoes, the Tahoes.

    Okay. So when he got out of the car, and the Tahoe is a pretty big car.

    Yeah, yeah. suv. Uh-huh. You could see the officer and what he was doing?

    Yeah, I could just see his movements, you know.

    Okay. You know, so. I think after Mike Brown ran away.

    Uh-huh. Officer, gets out of his car, you can see the officer.

    Yeah. His body position? Yeah. Over by his car? Yeah, basically from like his chest on up.

    Okay. So I didn't --I could see like see his gun too, but not like his stomach on down to until he got past.

    Okay. You know, so. And you heard the gunshots? Yeah, that's when I started hearing the moment he gets out of the vehicle.

    I'm sorry, I can't remember if you said this, do you know how many?

    How many he shots? Uh-huh, before the pause? I don't know, maybe five. Are you guessing? That should be about four, five.

    Okay. Yeah. MS. If you're not sure, it is fine to say you're not sure.

    Okay. I know it was a nice round because he gets out of the car immediately and started shooting, just like I said, each time that he shot, I was like I said, I feel for the guy with the dreads. I think of it as a nightmare too because each time he saw the officer shooting, he was just like, you know, kind of like, I seen his body jump just looking at each time like he was like a duck that he was giving hisself around the vehicle. So I would have to say about four or five.

    MS. Okay. Do you remember when you first talked to the County detectives, you gave a recorded interview and a couple minutes later, you had a follow-up right away and they went back on the recording, do you remember that?

    Urn, with them? MR. It would be on the same day, August 9th. It was about four or five hours after all of this happened that day they came and they talked to you?

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was that same day.

    MS. You gave a recorded statement and literally within a minute, maybe even seconds later they went back on the recording. Was there something that you had asked that you said I wanted to ask you about. You had said in talking about the initial altercation, you had said that, urn, that you heard the shots before the police officer got out of the car and that's what made the police officer get out of the car.

    So I know that since then and today that you heard the shots after the cop got out of the car. Now one point you said that, that is what I was just wondering.

    Urn -- MR. You said, what is referring to, Detective asked you, when did you hear the first gunshots, you said you heard gunshots.

    You said, I was in window. And Detective asked you, and where was the officer at that point.

    And you said that he was still in the car, that's when I saw the altercation, whenever it was happening in the car and the guys ran.

    And so at that point you indicated the first shots were while the officer was still in the car.

    And let me ask you this, kind of, you mention at the very beginning, I meant to ask you this earlier, but that the guy with the dreads and Mike Brown took off running at like the same instant.

    Uh-huh. MR. Is that right? They both just took off running at the exact same time?

    Uh-huh. MR. And you hear or seeing anything that would cause--

    That's the point, I didn't even hear a gunshot go off while the officer was in the car, you know. So like I said, I really didn't hear. The only thing I heard was a hard tussling, you know. So that is what drew me to the window, I could hear everything because it echos, so I could hear everything, but that is what drew me to the window.

    But they did take off at the same time, but I really, I didn't think that maybe a shot went off in the car or something because that was a good timing, you know.

    MS. The reason we ask you is because as just read to you the transcript of your statement, you said at that point that the shot had gone off in the car.

    Yeah, maybe, I mean, I know for sure I didn't hear a shot go off in the car, but, urn, like I said, that's probably wasn't like the first interview, that's maybe because I'd have heard that a shot did go off so, you know, I was trying to put a puzzle together too, maybe that's the reason why they ran, but I didn't hear.

    MS. So there is about four hours from the time this whole incident occurred to that the time that the county cops interviewed you. In those four hours, I know that you videoed a lot of it, or people on the street, did you talk to your neighbors, kind of talk --

    No, because a lot of people are my neighbors, they didn't see everything. They didn't see, it was just a main guy got, uh, from what I saw I kind of, you know, I like his beginning from when he said he saw Ferguson pull up on these guys.

    MS. That guy in the burgundy car?

    Yes, yes. MS. You talked to him?

    Yes. MS. When you talked to him, did the two of you kind of piece this together?

    Urn, like I said, he saw the whole thing basically, but I pieced his with mine.

    MS. You say he saw the whole thing, and he never gave you his name?

    No, huh-uh. MS. Do you know how to find him?

    Not at all, not at all. I don't remember like seeing him again afterwards or the vehicle.

    MR. Can you just real quick, can you tell us what he told you again about what he saw?

    That he said, urn, urn, that the officer pulls up to them and the officer says something to them and they say something back, and he reverses back and like I said, that's why the police cruiser is in the middle of the street diagonal because he cuts Mike Brown off.

    And he said that he runs over his foot to catch him or whatever, he said that he reached out the window to hold him or whatever, and, urn, and maybe that's where the tussle started at. Going on maybe to let him know or whatever he, maybe he was punching on him in the window, whatever the case. That's when I came to the window because I heard the little tussle.

    MR. Did he say anything to you about a gunshot while the police officer was in the car?

    I I really don't -- MR. Or did the officer say something about that to you?

    I don't think that he did, I think somebody else said that, somebody else that walked up and said that a gunshot, that's the reason why they ran so fast so, but I don't remember that the guy with the purple car that said that to me.

    MR. And so as you sit here today, do you know whether the first shot was, whether you heard the first shot while they were, while the police officer is still in the car or after he got out of the car.

    I only started hearing shots when he gets out the vehicle.

    MR. Okay. And this individual that you talked about who told you what he saw before you actually started looking out the window, you didn't see any of that, the police officer pull up and an exchange between the two of them talking or him backing the car up, you didn't see any of that.

    No, I didn't. MR. Okay. Did you want to take a break? I think we will take just a few minute break.

    Okay. MR. You want to leave this on?

    That's fine, that's fine. MR. That way we don't have to come back on for

    I hear you, I hear you. MR. We will be back, thank you for your time.

    We will just be a second. Okay, not a problem.

    (They took a break.)

    Sorry about that, okay. No problem. You okay, you need to go to the restroom or anything like that?

    No, I'm fine. So we have a couple more questions.

    Okay. MS. So what is saying, we really aren't going to go and tell anybody that you gave us this information or that we spoke to you because when we do our investigations, we want to find out what happened. And the only way to find out what happened is if people feel that they can truly just kind of open up and let it out.

    Right. MS. If we end up saying oh, so and so said this, what do you think about that?

    Right. MS. It kind of doesn't, it, it doesn't, it muddies the water a little bit.

    Yeah, yeah. MS. We talked about what you know and we want you to, we really want to show you that we're never going to go to another person and say hey, told us this or that. It is kind of like, yes, you gave interviews before, and yeah, you were on TV, but in here, this is totally separate and apart.

    Okay. MS. This is your opportunity to kind of lay it out. I know that you are concerned about, I think you said you saw some websites about snitches and so forth.

    Yeah. MS. And so is that from concern from in the community?

    Uh, yeah, it could be anywhere, you know, it could be anywhere. It could just be anywhere, so I'm not even sure, you know.

    MS. We get it. This has caused a lot of people to take sides and so forth, and we just want to figure out what happened.

    Uh-huh. MS. We really do.

    Uh-huh. MS. We want to know and what they saw.

    Okay. MS. We are not going to say oh, you know, we got your information from because, you know, nobody is going to find out.

    Okay.

    is there something specific that you don't want to tell us?

    Uh, no. Because I'm concerned that you might have been directly threatened or there is people, because you keep looking down when you talk about it.

    I mean, everything I'm just, nervous.

    That's okay. I'm not comfortable, I'm just like after this, you know, uh, I think of stuff like that. I said like, you know, everything that I've done and like I said, I go to work, I go to the store and little kids they recognize me and a lot of people, if I get paid a nickel every time I hear the word superstar, you know, I would be rich or whatever. I don't know, it is just --

    You know you're not in trouble to feel this way, you are not in this alone. You know, you know, you see the news, there is other people too that they do know the position that you are in.

    And I know it is a lot different talking when the cameras are rolling and then talking to us. Because you understand that there's the lives are affected by, specifically Michael Brown's parents and also the lives of the officer and Ferguson police officers. So we absolutely 100 percent, I know you are a good person, you have a family.

    Yes, I do. That you are concerned with, so if there is something more going on, if you want to explain, I suspect that there is, we need to do that, okay?

    Yeah. Do you trust us? Yeah, I trust you. MS. Okay. So going back to that, going back to the video that you have, right?

    Uh-huh. MS. So you were saying, dude, that guy just went up on him, started punching him?

    Yeah. MS. That was your reaction?

    Yeah, that was right away. MS. That was your gut reaction based on what you saw, am I correct?

    Yes. MS. That Michael Brown went up to that car and started punching the officer?

    Yeah, yeah, cause, like I say, I look at cops all the time, you know, and I see other stuff that, you know, it is a lot of people out there that does stupid stuff to make an officer, you know, to get down on them or whatever. But that definitely what I assume.

    MS. And --what you saw, though, right, you are watching this go on, right?

    Yeah. MS. So what you saw, correct me if I'm wrong, this kid is doing something really stupid.

    Yeah, I mean, yeah, because like I said, when I see somebody hit a police officer, here I'm hearing a tussle like that, it doesn't look right. So I assume that, you know, some guy just run up to the car and started punching on him and the officer gets out of the car and shoots him dead.

    MS. Right, and your immediate reaction this kid just did something that was pretty stupid. You said he got up in the officer's shit, and those are your words, right?

    Yeah. MS. Okay. And your words are like that kid just went up and started punching on that officer.

    Uh-huh. MS. Yes?

    Yes. MS. In the background I know that this guy in the red car started like saying oh, no, he started talking about running over and all of that.

    Yeah, but still at the same time, I only see the moment when he was already at the vehicle, so I didn't see him run up or anything like that.

    MS. Right, right. So I wanted to ask you some more about that that guy in the car.

    Uh-huh. MS. Here is the thing, anything you know that could steer us in the direction of finding him, we would never say told us who you are or how to find you, but it is really important. We need to figure out what happened, right? There are people who, people who were there, who saw it.

    I mean, if something just come to my mind, I mean, like the video that I have, maybe you could check the license plates on that vehicle.

    MS. Okay.

    And go from there maybe, I don't know.

    MS. Okay. Is there any other thing that you know about him?

    No, that's the only thing. MS. Because it just seems kind of weird to us, right, that this stranger starts coming up and having a whole discussion with you?

    Yeah, I mean, everybody just started talking to everybody.

    MS. I know.

    Like I said, even when I had started recording, you know, I started talking of what I assumed, what I saw.

    MS. Right.

    Uh, even though I saw him already at the window, but I just put it to the point he ran up to the car and started, you know.

    MS. What you said was he got up in that officer's shit and started punching him.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is exactly I saw. He ran up all up in his shit, whatever, so.

    MS. Is that what you saw, that is what you saw.

    Yeah, but still, I mean, when I saw this kid be different like, as far as like he could be grabbed to the car.

    MS. Did you see him get grabbed?

    No, I didn't see him get grabbed, but if --

    Have you ever, I'm going to take his off, have you ever been in a physical fight before?

    Yes. Fight with somebody. Now imagine, did you feel like you were at an advantage or disadvantage?

    I mean, you know, I feel if you are in a fight sometimes, you know, this guy's getting an advantage.

    Let me ask you, if you are sitting down and someone was standing, who would you say had the advantage there?

    Of course, I believe that's a truck that, of course, anybody standing out of the vehicle would have an advantage.

    Okay. Because I've seen it before with my own eyes, that if a guy gets out of the car, they get to punching on somebody that's in the car, you know, because they almost can't do nothing with two hands, you know.

    Okay. Maybe with one, grab one hand or whatever, but you know, so that there is anybody outside the car would have the upper hand, you know, so I do see that.

    And did you see that? Yeah, I mean, I look at it like I said, anybody outside the vehicle has the upper hand.

    Right. I assume, you know, he ran up to the car and punched him up in his face or whatever, then they takes off running.

    So based on what you saw, did you see, did you feel that Michael Brown had an advantage or did you think it was the other way around?

  • Uh, I mean, the advantage, he definitely has an upper advantage if he's throwing punches, if he's throwing punches from outside the vehicle. So, but like I said, it could be different reasons why, you know, he was on the side and then pulling, trying to be pulled in or something like that, but. We're not asking you to figure that out either, so don't feel like you have to. Okay. We're just trying to find different ways to kind of jog your memory. Yeah, but anybody standing outside the vehicle they would have the upper advantage on throwing punches. MS. Could I ask you some more about that guy in the burgundy car? Yes. MS. About how old is he? I know he's younger than me, a lot younger guy. I'm not even sure how old he is, I know he's younger. MS. Was he black or white? Black. MS. Was he with anybody in the car? With a girl, maybe his girlfriend. MS. Did you hear him call his girlfriend by name or anything like that? No, huh-uh. MS. So this is just some guy that randomly is sitting in your neighborhood at that exact moment? Uh-huh. And when I got the recording, I got to talking and then I got on ground level and got to talking to him because he's already right there and I got to MS. What kind of car did you say it was or do you know? It was like a burgundy Bonneville. MS. Okay. Does know him? No. MS. Did you guys ever find out afterwards who he was. No, not really, not really, not really. Anybody else in the neighborhood who told you that they saw what happened? From the beginning, there was another guy, like I said, that walked up, he had dreads too. And he said gunshot went off in the car and that's the reason why they took off running. MS. Do you know him? No. MS. Ever seen him before. I've seen him around the apartments, I've seen him before. MS. Do you know his name? No. MS. Okay. Do you have anything else you want to tell us? I have something to ask. MS. Sure. You reverts back to about the statement that the police or whatever came to my house and I did that and, urn, I mean, I hear a change, you know, you already told me, you know, can you change anything, but you know, I'm hoping that I don't get in trouble for that. MS. You're not in trouble. I just said maybe, maybe when I said that is cause, like I said, I already had did so many interviews already, so each time when I like hear, you know, what, even one time when I had like my first of two interviews. MS. Uh-huh. My first of two interviews, my first of two interviews I was already saying he, the officer let out about eight shots, eight, nine shots. But then I remember like a few more interviews after that, that's when I notice about the, I saw the autopsy. And I remember telling the reporter, I said they only found six shells, that Mike Brown was hit six times, you know. I was saying like, he only shot six times through that whole time? So, you know, I was breaking that down so, but if I even said that to him, it is probably, you know, because I already heard somebody said that's the reason why they ran cause a shot went off. MS. Here is the thing, you are not in trouble, okay? Okay. MS. I don't want, I want to put you totally at ease. I understand that, you know, you're sitting here talking to federal agents, federal prosecutors and it can seem scary to anybody, okay? Uh-huh. MS. You're not in any trouble, as long as you just tell us what you, yourself remember. Yeah. MS. The best that you can, okay? Yeah. MS. Okay. As long as you do that, you would only get in trouble if you lie to us. Yeah. MS. That's why we want to make sure that you are telling us, we want to know the truth. Oh, okay. MS. Whatever side it falls on, whoever it helps or doesn't help or hurts, we just want to know what happened. Okay, not a problem, not a problem. MS. We don't want you to get worried about getting in trouble. We do want you, we want you to just talk about it later, you are a piece of the puzzle, all right? Nothing rises or falls with you, nothing makes or breaks with you. Even though you are on the news or media calling you, that doesn't matter. You are a witness on a case like any other case, okay? Okay. MS. And so we just want you to tell us what happened. Okay. MS. We understand it happened quickly, people have different vantage points, different views of things. Right. MS. We want to know what you, saw and heard. Okay. MS. So is there anything that you told us here today that you want to correct, that you think maybe we didn't understand correctly? No. MR. I think you said something about being concerned about changing things or whatever. You should have seen how many, us sitting here today, this is a clean slate, okay? Okay. MR. What you have had to say before doesn't make all that much difference. What we are interested in is how do you recall this. Right, uh-huh. MR. We want what your best recollection is. Okay. MR. So don't worry about trying to keep things straight or not changing things. I mean, if you recall things differently, then you just need to let us know. Right, right, right, right. MR. And I mean, as we sit here, is there anything at all that, you know, as you look back at it, that you are concerned at all? Urn, no, I told everything, the whole story, everything you guys asked. I mean, that's really nothing. I mean, it is just kind of, it is just maybe a few questions. About if a gun went off in the car. MS. Look, some people heard one thing, others heard another. You didn't hear it, you didn't hear it. We just want to know what you, yourself, heard and saw. Okay. MR. We want to know what you actually know. If you're not sure, if you don't recall, we need to know that, okay? Okay. MR. What is your concern about that, about the shot was in the car? No, no, I mean, not too much of a big concern, but it just, uh, uh, like basically me just wanting to know if a shot really did go off in the car. MS. We can't tell you one way or the other. I understand. MS. Here is the thing, it is like we said before, if we tell you what someone else said. Absolutely. MS. What you, yourself, saw. It is natural when people start telling you things. Gotcha. MS. You start putting pieces together. Uh-huh. MS. And you, you know, you may start thinking you know something when in fact, you know, you don't. I understand, I clearly understand. MS. Okay. So you brought up before, so is reading what I refer to the statement, is reading a transcript of it. The reason we were asking about it is it was clearly something different that you said from what you're saying today. It doesn't mean you are getting in trouble for that, we are just trying to figure out why you said one thing on one day and why you are saying a different thing today, and that is why we brought it up. Okay. That is just that little part. MS. Right. MR. And you said other things before, you mentioned different Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was adding-- MR. You have talked about, yeah, right, I'm just talking about, you know, when you go back through those statements, there is that one instance we talked about, you know, where you talk about the police officer being in the car when you heard the first shots fired. Other times you talked about that he was out of the car when the first shots were fired. What we are trying to figure out is just how you best recall it or whether or not you are sure about whether he was or, you know, at the time that the shots occurred, that's all we are trying to do. Okay, not a problem. MR. Well, I mean, let me just touch on that one more time. Can you tell us what you recall about at that point as you are looking at the window? As I'm looking out the window, I see Mike Brown at the driver's side window of the police vehicle. I see a tussle, I see his arms moving, I see the officers arms moving, so I heard a hard tussling. Then all of the sudden they just takes off, they just takes off running. I see his friend, like I said, he runs to the first car that he sees, runs behind the trunk of the car because the officer immediately gets out of his vehicle and started shooting. So I see him looking at the officers as he was taking large steps going for Mike Brown. About the time that I notice that the officer went past his friend, that's when I came outside. By the time I gets outside, I see Mike Brown now facing the officer. He's bent down, got his arm under his stomach and, urn, like he was going down, not even to surrender, to say give up, just going down to bleed a little, but the officer just lets out four or five more shots at him and then he hits the ground. MR. All right. Just like (inaudible) MR. You said several times too that those first shots that officer fired, closer to the car, that you heard those. Are you sure that you actually saw him fire those shots or did you hear those shots, or because you said several times, I notice in your prior statements that you refer to hearing them. Yeah, I saw him. I saw him shooting at Mike Brown the moment he gets out of the vehicle. MR. Okay. The moment he's getting out of the vehicle? Yeah, the moment -- MR. Is he fully out of the car? Yeah, he is fully out of his car standing with his gun out, starts shooting, but he is still in his vehicle range and his cruiser range. So he ain't even get past it, you know, before he started shooting. So he is just like, he gets out of the car, bam, you know, starts shooting. MR. Anything else? No. MS. Do you have any other questions for us? Not at the moment. MS. Did we force you to say anything you didn't want to say? Uh, no. MS. Do you think we treated you fairy? Yes. MS. Is there anything else you want us to know, anything else you want us to know? Uh, no, not at the moment, but you know, maybe as time go on, I do have you guys. MS. Yes, you do. That's a good point you made. I want you to know just because you came in here and spoke to us doesn't mean you can't feel free to call I definitely will because I don't have a lawyer neither. Do you feel like you need a lawyer? Maybe not, maybe not. I'm just looking at why do everybody else have a lawyer. That's an excellent Do they feel like me? MS. We can't tell you, all we can tell you, you are not in any trouble if you come in here and tell us what happened and the truth, okay? Okay. MS. So as long as you came here and told us what happened. Right. MS. Then you don't have to worry. Okay. MS. Because that's all we really want. Okay. Can I ask you, I'm concerned about it, I understand the worry. Uh-huh. And I think that if you want to talk to us again or one-on-one if you just want to talk to , you want to talk me, you just want to talk anyone, you can do that too, but I do think there is more to it, I really do. And I want you to feel comfortable with that because understand, you are not in any trouble, do you understand that? I understand. Okay. MS. Is there anything else? You seem hesitant, that's why I keep asking you. Urn, I mean, since, since, you know, I received the call, you know, about, you know, come down to the FBI or whatever, I've been, you know, I can't wait to get down there, you know, I need to tell you how I feel. You know, what's going on, it is just me, do I need to keep doing what I'm doing, go to work, you know, take care of your family, you're doing, you're fine. Okay, so I don't know if I need to be told that, you know, or if I really need some help, you know. It is really, really bothering me. Like all the way it has been over a month now, I haven't ate good, you know. I just checked my weight today and I lost some pounds. Okay. At the time that I checked it was like 160, 165. I checked it today, it was like 152. Okay. I've been eating like horrible, like once a day, like mostly like at nighttime. You know, so the whole day I eat little snacks, I'm not getting full like, you know, everybody supposed to eat good full like two or three times a day at least, but I'm not eating much, not getting as good of sleep. What's on your mind? I mean, I don't know just, urn, maybe just what if what I already did with the reporters and, you know, I be thinking like somebody is looking for me, maybe. You know, I just have weird feelings. What type of person, what do you think that you did wrong? I mean, just the point, urn, I did quite a few interviews and I don't think, I only know there's a few witnesses. I think I just notice -- There is only a few witnesses that went to the media, there is a big difference between only a few witnesses. Okay. I don't think they didn't do as many as I did. Okay. But like I said, I don't know if I'm just worried, by me doing that I just immediately felt so worried since then and not having a lawyer and seeing that on the internet. MS. Are you worried about being called a snitch? No, I'm not worried about that. I'm hoping, I don't want nothing happening to me, you know. Maybe if my information is really good enough or whatever, and you know, I don't want nobody coming looking for me because I have good information, whatever the case. MS. Gotcha. I have a weird feeling. MS. Well, I tell you this, first of all, and I know if you feel like your personal safety is endanger, you need to call 911, but you have my name. Yes. Okay. If you get any threats or anything you call me. That is the main office number, you can talk to anyone. Okay. If that makes you -- Okay. You know, anybody you want to talk with. Okay. Ask for me, they'll put you through. Okay, all right. But I suspect there is more to it. I know there is a lot of pressure, like you said, you feel like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there may be a bit of a spotlight on you? Yeah, that too, that too. You know, it is almost like a now, I already got bills that I have to, you know, worry about it now. Now this is just all up in my mind. Yeah. You know, so, I mean. MS. You said something before about being a good enough witness, there is no such thing as being a good enough witness. Everybody knows what they know. Right. MS. Or they don't know, everybody plays a part. There is no measure for anything, the only thing we want is for people to come in and tell us what happened. Nobody is good enough or bad enough, they are what they are. Okay. MS. You saw what you saw, heard what you heard and that's it. Okay. MS. Not good enough or bad enough, you happen to be there and see the part that you did. Okay. Do you feel comfortable with everything you said today? Yes. Okay. Okay. MS. Thank you. Thank you. All right. I hope that is good enough. MS. I just said there is no such thing as good enough, did you tell us the truth? Yes, of course. I done exactly what I saw and just to let you know, the last interview I did with , that last one. You know, I don't know if he was trying to confront me or whatever, but he had the other girl, he had me to listen to her story so see whether my story were to change. I mean, that's what she saw and this is what I saw, you know. MS. Right, so you made a good point. He showed you someone else's interview? Yeah. MS. And he asked you about it, right? Is why you feel uncomfortable, this is why we don't tell you what other people said, we just want to know what you said. We are not going to ask you about someone else's. I gotcha. MS. Okay. I gotcha. MS. Do you feel like we treated you fairly with the questions? Yes, yes. MR. You are comfortable today? Yes. MR. Do you feel like we confronted you the way he did? Yeah. MR. That we confronted the way did, is what you are talking about? Oh, no, no, no. MR. All right. But you're concerned about the way (inaudible), that's why you quit doing media interviews? No, no, because after that, it just, I just thought I did so many and all of these reporters, they was coming to my house, calling my phone, they coming to my momma's house. I don't know how they got my momma's address. They called my next door neighbor, I don't know how they get her number. They was just like, when I get home, it has been like a good two weeks after his death, like they like, when I get home, I like to straighten out my apartment. I like to straighten up to make sure everything is right. I've got kids, you know, I like to straighten up and relax. That's the first thing I like to do when I get home there may be three or four waiting on me, you know, trying to get a piece of me and stuff like that whatever. And, you know, they throw cameras in my face and say, it is live. I'm like okay, whatever. But it is just after so many of them, that is just when it hit me, that same night after doing that show, I came back home and my fiancee came home too, and we kind of had some words exchanged and she didn't want to give me a kiss or whatever, but normally when she don't do that, I go up and mess with her, but I didn't bother her at all about that. I just went into the kitchen and started walking around in the kitchen and I started to fix me a sandwich. As I was fixing a sandwich, I've got the two (inaudible) out, but I'm just pacing back and forth in the kitchen. I started sweating and being real nervous. So when my fiancee walking around, you know, with an attitude, I stopped her in the kitchen and said look, you know, right now, you know, what you want right now is petty right now, I just want to tell you that right now. I'm feeling very, very sick right now, very, very sick. I'm shaking and I'm nervous right now and I'm scared, you know. It is just since that day, it has been kind of different. Like I said, my stomach started hurting then one morning, on Monday morning, on Mondays I have to be at work about 6:00 in the morning to go to the office, but I woke up like five something with some real chest pains. So, you know, it was just almost like, you know, something trying to happen, you know. One after another, whatever. I don't know, like I said if I'm just worried. I be on the highway and a couple of times I'll be seeing like almost accidents going to happen or whatever, you know. And like I said, I'm worried, I be worried. It has been twice I seen when I leave off work, I gets on the highway, has been two times I seen a guy on a motorcycle, black motorcycle, black helmet, black everything, follow me. I don't know, he wasn't following me though, but just, you know, I didn't see him in my rear view at first, but now I see him. And from St. Charles Rock Road to Lucas and Hunt, it is kind of a little distance. He was behind me for a minute and I got to thinking like, then he zoomed past me and then started catching up and then he started catching up. And he zoomed in front of me and then he zoomed in front of another car and I'm like oh, that could have been an accident. I'm just saying, I was looking what if this guy maybe looking for me. I think of stuff like that. So that's it, that's it, so I am comfortable talking to you guys about that. MR. Other than that news interview you talked about, has anybody confronted you about this in a way that -- No, I know around my neighborhood and at work, everybody is looking at me as a super star, you know. When I catch some guys at the store, have you been on TV. They be wanting to shake my hand so. I see, you know, in that community they see me as, I guess, I'm okay, you know, so. I do think of the Klu Klux Klan, I do think of them. You know what, a friend told me yesterday, I don't know if it is true or not, I doubt if it's true. He said, uh, that something happened to Mike Brown's family at their house, like their house got shot up or something. I'm asking? That's what he said, he said that one of Mike Brown's family's momma house or something got shot up by the Klu Klux Klan or whatever, you know. So that is what he tells me last night or whatever. So I don't do much believe that, but still as far as me, just in case because I don't have a lawyer or whatever, all the information that I said on each interview and stuff like that, so that's it, that's it, you know. Okay. But I am comfortable, so I do have your number, so anything else I'll make contact.

  • Okay. Well, I'm going to end the recording. It is 2:38 p.m.

    (End of the recording.)

  • But I am comfortable, so I do have your number, so anything else I'll make contact.

    Okay. Well, I'm going to end

  • Okay. But I am comfortable, so I do

  • No, I know around my neighborhood and at work, everybody is looking at me as a super star, you know. When I catch some guys at the store, have you been on TV. They be wanting to shake my hand so. I see, you know, in that community they see me as, I guess, I'm okay, you know, so.

    I do think of the Klu Klux Klan, I do think of them. You know what, a friend told me yesterday, I don't know if it is true or not, I doubt if it's true. He said, uh, that something happened to Mike Brown's family at their house, like their house got shot up or something.

    I'm asking? That's what he said, he said that one of Mike Brown's family's momma house or something got shot up by the Klu Klux Klan or whatever, you know. So that is what he tells me last night or whatever. So I don't do much believe that, but still as far as me, just in case because I don't have a lawyer or whatever, all the information that I said on each interview and stuff like that, so that's it, that's it, you know.

    Okay.

  • No, no, because after that, it just, I just thought I did so many and all of these reporters, they was coming to my house, calling my phone, they coming to my momma's house. I don't know how they got my momma's address.

    They called my next door neighbor, I don't know how they get her number. They was just like, when I get home, it has been like a good two weeks after his death, like they like, when I get home, I like to straighten out my apartment. I like to straighten up to make sure everything is right.

    I've got kids, you know, I like to straighten up and relax. That's the first thing I like to do when I get home there may be three or four waiting on me, you know, trying to get a piece of me and stuff like that whatever. And, you know, they throw cameras in my face and say, it is live. I'm like okay, whatever.

    But it is just after so many of them, that is just when it hit me, that same night after doing that show, I came back home and my fiancee came home too, and we kind of had some words exchanged and she didn't want to give me a kiss or whatever, but normally when she don't do that, I go up and mess with her, but I didn't bother her at all about that.

    I just went into the kitchen and started walking around in the kitchen and I started to fix me a sandwich. As I was fixing a sandwich, I've got the two (inaudible) out, but I'm just pacing back and forth in the kitchen. I started sweating and being real nervous.

    So when my fiancee walking around, you know, with an attitude, I stopped her in the kitchen and said look, you know, right now, you know, what you want right now is petty right now, I just want to tell you that right now. I'm feeling very, very sick right now, very, very sick. I'm shaking and I'm nervous right now and I'm scared, you know.

    It is just since that day, it has been kind of different. Like I said, my stomach started hurting then one morning, on Monday morning, on Mondays I have to be at work about 6:00 in the morning to go to the office, but I woke up like five something with some real chest pains.

    So, you know, it was just almost like, you know, something trying to happen, you know. One after another, whatever.

    I don't know, like I said if I'm just worried. I be on the highway and a couple of times I'll be seeing like almost accidents going to happen or whatever, you know. And like I said, I'm worried, I be worried. It has been twice I seen when I leave off work, I gets on the highway, has been two times I seen a guy on a motorcycle, black motorcycle, black helmet, black everything, follow me. I don't know, he wasn't following me though, but just, you know, I didn't see him in my rear view at first, but now I see him.

    And from St. Charles Rock Road to Lucas and Hunt, it is kind of a little distance. He was behind me for a minute and I got to thinking like, then he zoomed past me and then started catching up and then he started catching up. And he zoomed in front of me and then he zoomed in front of another car and I'm like oh, that could have been an accident.

    I'm just saying, I was looking what if this guy maybe looking for me. I think of stuff like that. So that's it, that's it, so I am comfortable talking to you guys about that.

    MR. Other than that news interview you talked about, has anybody confronted you about this in a way that --

    No, I know around my

  • Oh, no, no, no. MR. All right. But you're concerned about the way (inaudible), that's why you quit doing media interviews?

    No, no, because after that, it

  • did, is what you are talking about?

    Oh, no, no, no.

  • Yeah. MR. That we confronted the way

    did, is what you are talking

  • Yes. MR. Do you feel like we confronted you the way he did?

    Yeah.

  • Yes, yes. MR. You are comfortable today?

    Yes.

  • I gotcha. MS. Do you feel like we treated you fairly with the questions?

    Yes, yes.

  • I gotcha. MS. Okay.

    I gotcha.

  • Yeah. MS. And he asked you about it, right? Is why you feel uncomfortable, this is why we don't tell you what other people said, we just want to know what you said. We are not going to ask you about someone else's.

    I gotcha.

  • Yes, of course. I done exactly what I saw and just to let you know, the last interview I did with , that last one. You know, I don't know if he was trying to confront me or whatever, but he had the other girl, he had me to listen to her story so see whether my story were to change. I mean, that's what she saw and this is what I saw, you know.

    MS. Right, so you made a good point. He showed you someone else's interview?

    Yeah.

  • I hope that is good enough. MS. I just said there is no such thing as good enough, did you tell us the truth?

    Yes, of course. I done

  • All right. I hope that is good enough.

  • Thank you. All right.

  • Okay. MS. Thank you.

    Thank you.

  • Do you feel comfortable with everything you said today?

    Yes.

  • Okay. Do you feel comfortable with

  • Okay. MS. Not good enough or bad enough, you happen to be there and see the part that you did.

    Okay.

  • Okay. MS. You saw what you saw, heard what you heard and that's it.

    Okay.

  • Right. MS. Or they don't know, everybody plays a part. There is no measure for anything, the only thing we want is for people to come in and tell us what happened. Nobody is good enough or bad enough, they are what they are.

    Okay.

  • You know, so, I mean. MS. You said something before about being a good enough witness, there is no such thing as being a good enough witness. Everybody knows what they know.

    Right.

  • Yeah. You know, so, I mean.

  • Yeah, that too, that too. You know, it is almost like a now, I already got bills that I have to, you know, worry about it now. Now this is just all up in my mind.

    Yeah.

  • But I suspect there is more to it. I know there is a lot of pressure, like you said, you feel like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there may be a bit of a spotlight on you?

    Yeah, that too, that too. You

  • Okay, all right. But I suspect there is more

  • Ask for me, they'll put you through.

    Okay, all right.

  • Okay. Ask for me, they'll put you

  • You know, anybody you want to talk with.

    Okay.

  • Okay. You know, anybody you want to

  • If that makes you -- Okay.

  • Okay. If that makes you --

  • Okay. If you get any threats or anything you call me. That is the main office number, you can talk to anyone.

    Okay.

  • Yes. Okay. If you get any threats

  • I have a weird feeling. MS. Well, I tell you this, first of all, and I know if you feel like your personal safety is endanger, you need to call 911, but you have my name.

    Yes.

  • No, I'm not worried about that. I'm hoping, I don't want nothing happening to me, you know. Maybe if my information is really good enough or whatever, and you know, I don't want nobody coming looking for me because I have good information, whatever the case.

    MS. Gotcha.

    I have a weird feeling.

  • But like I said, I don't know if I'm just worried, by me doing that I just immediately felt so worried since then and not having a lawyer and seeing that on the internet.

    MS. Are you worried about being called a snitch?

    No, I'm not worried about

  • Okay. But like I said, I don't know

  • Okay. I don't think they didn't do as many as I did.

    Okay.

  • There is only a few witnesses that went to the media, there is a big difference between only a few witnesses.

    Okay. I don't think they

  • I mean, just the point, urn, I did quite a few interviews and I don't think, I only know there's a few witnesses. I think I just notice --

    There is only a few witnesses

  • What type of person, what do you think that you did wrong?

    I mean, just the point, urn, I

  • I mean, I don't know just, urn, maybe just what if what I already did with the reporters and, you know, I be thinking like somebody is looking for me, maybe. You know, I just have weird feelings.

    What type of person, what do

  • What's on your mind? I mean, I don't know just, urn,

  • I've been eating like horrible, like once a day, like mostly like at nighttime. You know, so the whole day I eat little snacks, I'm not getting full like, you know, everybody supposed to eat good full like two or three times a day at least, but I'm not eating much, not getting as good of sleep.

    What's on your mind?

  • Okay. I've been eating like

  • At the time that I checked it was like 160, 165. I checked it today, it was like 152.

    Okay.

  • Okay. At the time that I checked it

  • Urn, I mean, since, since, you know, I received the call, you know, about, you know, come down to the FBI or whatever, I've been, you know, I can't wait to get down there, you know, I need to tell you how I feel. You know, what's going on, it is just me, do I need to keep doing what I'm doing, go to work, you know, take care of your family, you're doing, you're fine. Okay, so I don't know if I need to be told that, you know, or if I really need some help, you know. It is really, really bothering me.

    Like all the way it has been over a month now, I haven't ate good, you know.

    I just checked my weight today and I lost some pounds.

    Okay.

  • Okay. MS. Is there anything else? You seem hesitant, that's why I keep asking you.

    Urn, I mean, since, since, you

  • I understand. Okay.

  • And I think that if you want to talk to us again or one-on-one if you just want to talk to , you want to talk me, you just want to talk anyone, you can do that too, but I do think there is more to it, I really do. And I want you to feel comfortable with that because understand, you are not in any trouble, do you understand that?

    I understand.

  • Uh-huh. And I think that if you want

  • Can I ask you, I'm concerned about it, I understand the worry.

    Uh-huh.

  • Okay. Can I ask you, I'm concerned

  • Okay. MS. Because that's all we really want.

    Okay.

  • Right. MS. Then you don't have to worry.

    Okay.

  • Okay. MS. So as long as you came here and told us what happened.

    Right.

  • Do they feel like me? MS. We can't tell you, all we can tell you, you are not in any trouble if you come in here and tell us what happened and the truth, okay?

    Okay.

  • That's an excellent Do they feel like me?

  • Maybe not, maybe not. I'm just looking at why do everybody else have a lawyer.

    That's an excellent

  • Do you feel like you need a lawyer?

    Maybe not, maybe not. I'm

  • I definitely will because I don't have a lawyer neither.

    Do you feel like you need a

  • Uh, no, not at the moment, but you know, maybe as time go on, I do have you guys.

    MS. Yes, you do. That's a good point you made. I want you to know just because you came in here and spoke to us doesn't mean you can't feel free to call

    I definitely will because I

  • Yes. MS. Is there anything else you want us to know, anything else you want us to know?

    Uh, no, not at the moment, but

  • Uh, no. MS. Do you think we treated you fairy?

    Yes.

  • Not at the moment. MS. Did we force you to say anything you didn't want to say?

    Uh, no.

  • No. MS. Do you have any other questions for us?

    Not at the moment.

  • Yeah, he is fully out of his car standing with his gun out, starts shooting, but he is still in his vehicle range and his cruiser range. So he ain't even get past it, you know, before he started shooting. So he is just like, he gets out of the car, bam, you know, starts shooting.

    MR. Anything else?

    No.

  • Yeah, the moment -- MR. Is he fully out of the car?

    Yeah, he is fully out of his

  • Yeah, I saw him. I saw him shooting at Mike Brown the moment he gets out of the vehicle.

    MR. Okay. The moment he's getting out of the vehicle?

    Yeah, the moment --

  • Just like (inaudible) MR. You said several times too that those first shots that officer fired, closer to the car, that you heard those. Are you sure that you actually saw him fire those shots or did you hear those shots, or because you said several times, I notice in your prior statements that you refer to hearing them.

    Yeah, I saw him. I saw him

  • As I'm looking out the window, I see Mike Brown at the driver's side window of the police vehicle. I see a tussle, I see his arms moving, I see the officers arms moving, so I heard a hard tussling.

    Then all of the sudden they just takes off, they just takes off running. I see his friend, like I said, he runs to the first car that he sees, runs behind the trunk of the car because the officer immediately gets out of his vehicle and started shooting. So I see him looking at the officers as he was taking large steps going for Mike Brown.

    About the time that I notice that the officer went past his friend, that's when I came outside. By the time I gets outside, I see Mike Brown now facing the officer. He's bent down, got his arm under his stomach and, urn, like he was going down, not even to surrender, to say give up, just going down to bleed a little, but the officer just lets out four or five more shots at him and then he hits the ground.

    MR. All right.

    Just like (inaudible)

  • Okay, not a problem. MR. Well, I mean, let me just touch on that one more time. Can you tell us what you recall about at that point as you are looking at the window?

    As I'm looking out the window,

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was adding--

    MR. You have talked about, yeah, right, I'm just talking about, you know, when you go back through those statements, there is that one instance we talked about, you know, where you talk about the police officer being in the car when you heard the first shots fired.

    Other times you talked about that he was out of the car when the first shots were fired.

    What we are trying to figure out is just how you best recall it or whether or not you are sure about whether he was or, you know, at the time that the shots occurred, that's all we are trying to do.

    Okay, not a problem.

  • Okay. That is just that little part.

    MS. Right. MR. And you said other things before, you mentioned different

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was

  • I understand, I clearly understand.

    MS. Okay. So you brought up before, so is reading what I refer to the statement, is reading a transcript of it. The reason we were asking about it is it was clearly something different that you said from what you're saying today. It doesn't mean you are getting in trouble for that, we are just trying to figure out why you said one thing on one day and why you are saying a different thing today, and that is why we brought it up.

    Okay. That is just that

  • Uh-huh. MS. And you, you know, you may start thinking you know something when in fact, you know, you don't.

    I understand, I clearly

  • Gotcha. MS. You start putting pieces together.

    Uh-huh.

  • Absolutely. MS. What you, yourself, saw. It is natural when people start telling you things.

    Gotcha.

  • I understand. MS. Here is the thing, it is like we said before, if we tell you what someone else said.

    Absolutely.

  • No, no, I mean, not too much of a big concern, but it just, uh, uh, like basically me just wanting to know if a shot really did go off in the car.

    MS. We can't tell you one way or the other.

    I understand.

  • Okay. MR. What is your concern about that, about the shot was in the car?

    No, no, I mean, not too much

  • Okay. MR. We want to know what you actually know. If you're not sure, if you don't recall, we need to know that, okay?

    Okay.

  • Urn, no, I told everything, the whole story, everything you guys asked. I mean, that's really nothing. I mean, it is just kind of, it is just maybe a few questions. About if a gun went off in the car.

    MS. Look, some people heard one thing, others heard another. You didn't hear it, you didn't hear it. We just want to know what you, yourself, heard and saw.

    Okay.

  • Right, right, right, right. MR. And I mean, as we sit here, is there anything at all that, you know, as you look back at it, that you are concerned at all?

    Urn, no, I told everything, the

  • Okay. MR. So don't worry about trying to keep things straight or not changing things. I mean, if you recall things differently, then you just need to let us know.

    Right, right, right, right.

  • Right, uh-huh. MR. We want what your best recollection is.

    Okay.

  • Okay. MR. What you have had to say before doesn't make all that much difference. What we are interested in is how do you recall this.

    Right, uh-huh.

  • No. MR. I think you said something about being concerned about changing things or whatever. You should have seen how many, us sitting here today, this is a clean slate, okay?

    Okay.

  • Okay. MS. So is there anything that you told us here today that you want to correct, that you think maybe we didn't understand correctly?

    No.

  • Right. MS. We want to know what you, saw and heard.

    Okay.

  • Okay. MS. We understand it happened quickly, people have different vantage points, different views of things.

    Right.

  • Okay. MS. And so we just want you to tell us what happened.

    Okay.

  • Okay, not a problem, not a problem.

    MS. We don't want you to get worried about getting in trouble. We do want you, we want you to just talk about it later, you are a piece of the puzzle, all right? Nothing rises or falls with you, nothing makes or breaks with you. Even though you are on the news or media calling you, that doesn't matter. You are a witness on a case like any other case, okay?

    Okay.

  • Oh, okay. MS. Whatever side it falls on, whoever it helps or doesn't help or hurts, we just want to know what happened.

    Okay, not a problem, not a

  • Yeah. MS. That's why we want to make sure that you are telling us, we want to know the truth.

    Oh, okay.

  • Yeah. MS. Okay. As long as you do that, you would only get in trouble if you lie to us.

    Yeah.

  • Yeah. MS. The best that you can, okay?

    Yeah.

  • Uh-huh. MS. You're not in any trouble, as long as you just tell us what you, yourself remember.

    Yeah.

  • Okay. MS. I don't want, I want to put you totally at ease. I understand that, you know, you're sitting here talking to federal agents, federal prosecutors and it can seem scary to anybody, okay?

    Uh-huh.

  • My first of two interviews, my first of two interviews I was already saying he, the officer let out about eight shots, eight, nine shots. But then I remember like a few more interviews after that, that's when I notice about the, I saw the autopsy. And I remember telling the reporter, I said they only found six shells, that Mike Brown was hit six times, you know.

    I was saying like, he only shot six times through that whole time? So, you know, I was breaking that down so, but if I even said that to him, it is probably, you know, because I already heard somebody said that's the reason why they ran cause a shot went off.

    MS. Here is the thing, you are not in trouble, okay?

    Okay.

  • I just said maybe, maybe when I said that is cause, like I said, I already had did so many interviews already, so each time when I like hear, you know, what, even one time when I had like my first of two interviews.

    MS. Uh-huh.

    My first of two interviews, my

  • You reverts back to about the statement that the police or whatever came to my house and I did that and, urn, I mean, I hear a change, you know, you already told me, you know, can you change anything, but you know, I'm hoping that I don't get in trouble for that.

    MS. You're not in trouble.

    I just said maybe, maybe when

  • I have something to ask. MS. Sure.

    You reverts back to about the

  • No. MS. Okay. Do you have anything else you want to tell us?

    I have something to ask.

  • I've seen him around the apartments, I've seen him before.

    MS. Do you know his name?

    No.

  • No. MS. Ever seen him before.

    I've seen him around the

  • From the beginning, there was another guy, like I said, that walked up, he had dreads too. And he said gunshot went off in the car and that's the reason why they took off running.

    MS. Do you know him?

    No.

  • Anybody else in the neighborhood who told you that they saw what happened?

    From the beginning, there was

  • No, not really, not really, not really.

    Anybody else in the

  • No. MS. Did you guys ever find out afterwards who he was.

    No, not really, not really,

  • It was like a burgundy Bonneville.

    MS. Okay. Does know him?

    No.

  • Uh-huh. And when I got the recording, I got to talking and then I got on ground level and got to talking to him because he's already right there and I got to

    MS. What kind of car did you say it was or do you know?

    It was like a burgundy

  • No, huh-uh. MS. So this is just some guy that randomly is sitting in your neighborhood at that exact moment?

    Uh-huh. And when I got the

  • With a girl, maybe his girlfriend.

    MS. Did you hear him call his girlfriend by name or anything like that?

    No, huh-uh.

  • Black. MS. Was he with anybody in the car?

    With a girl, maybe his

  • I know he's younger than me, a lot younger guy. I'm not even sure how old he is, I know he's younger.

    MS. Was he black or white?

    Black.

  • Yes. MS. About how old is he?

    I know he's younger than me, a

  • Yeah, but anybody standing outside the vehicle they would have the upper advantage on throwing punches.

    MS. Could I ask you some more about that guy in the burgundy car?

    Yes.

  • We're just trying to find different ways to kind of jog your memory.

    Yeah, but anybody standing

  • Okay. We're just trying to find

  • We're not asking you to figure that out either, so don't feel like you have to.

    Okay.

  • It is 11:35 and this is Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are still present, we just completed the tape recorded fourth statement of And at this point, I'm going to have go ahead and finalize the tape. Immediately after this, immediately after finalizing the tape, I have a witness that we are going to go ahead and call.

    Typically we play the statement before the witness, but I just, since he has been here, I would like to get him on and off so he doesn't have to wait. And then after he testifies, we will play his statement for you, which is about 30 minutes and only one. And, urn, then you break for lunch, maybe after this witness testifies and then after lunch play that 30 minute statement of his. And so at this time we will end this recording and finalize the disc.

    (Recess)

  • All right. This is Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are in the room, as well as Sheila Whirley who is with the St. Louis County Prosecutor's Office, and at this time I will ask the court reporter to pause the audio recording and then we will have the witness identify himself and then we will resume the audio recording for his sworn statement.

    WITNESS 10, of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Now, as I mentioned to you, well, let me first have you state your name.

  • And I told you before you came in here we were going to record things, but that you were not going to be recorded when you stated your name, correct?

  • And you believe me that I'm going to keep my word on that?

  • All right. And then after the introduction portion, the court reporter will begin the recording again. You will be referred to as Witness Number 10, all right?

  • (Nods head.)

  • And the grand jurors will refer to themselves by their grand juror number.

    If, you know, sometimes I don't know if there will be any reason why you would say your own name, I would try to remind you don't mention your own name while we are recording because that's, we are trying to protect your identity, okay?

  • How old are you?

  • And what's is your date of birth?

  • Okay. And whereabouts do you live?

  • And did you grow up in ?

  • Okay. And are you familiar with the Ferguson area?

  • And what do you do for a living? A

  • And what's the company you work for?

  • How long have you been working for them?

  • I have been working for them for

  • At this time, , I will have you go ahead and start the audio recording.

    (Audio recording is started.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Now, Witness Number 10 you have been sworn and you have just introduced yourself to the jurors. And you understand that this is an investigation into the shooting death of Michael Brown, correct?

  • I talked to you on the phone yesterday about coming forward and testifying today, correct?

  • And you know you are under oath and sworn to tell the truth?

  • You have been interviewed by the St. Louis County Police Department as well as the FBI; is that correct?

  • But that was just one interview; is that right?

  • Have you ever been on television or gone before the media?

  • Have you done any other interviews whether it be with law enforcement or anybody in the entertainment or media industry?

  • And so other than that statement that you made previously to the County Police and the FBI, is this really only the second time where you've been asked to answer questions about what happened on that day?

  • Okay. So Witness Number 10, can you tell me on August 9th of this past year, a little over a month ago, were you still working for the company that you identified at that time?

  • No, I was actually doing a side job.

  • Okay. So this was something on your own that you were doing?

  • And were you working by yourself that day or were you with anyone else?

  • I was working by myself.

  • Okay. So was it a that you were working at?

  • It is being there in that doing just that they asked for me to do.

  • Okay. So what kind of work were you doing, was it indoor work or outdoor work at this ?

  • Was it work you are familiar with, like

    and stuff like that? A

  • And so you said that was the you had ever been at that ?

  • When were you previously at that ?

  • I believe in , maybe.

  • Okay. So before?

  • And did you know the name of the

    ?

  • And the day on August 9th when you were working there, was there anyone at ?

  • And is that just that was there?

  • No, it was and the original that once before I seen once before.

  • Okay. So the original , was that that was there? A

  • Was the was that that you know of?

  • I'm not sure.

  • Okay. Did you have any interaction with

  • Okay. About what time of day did you get to that

  • Urn, I arrived roughly around

  • In the morning?

  • And do you remember the address of that ?

  • No, I'm not sure.

  • So are you familiar with the Ferguson area?

  • And how did you get to that that day? I mean, you don't have to start like where you are starting at home, but did you get to that residence off of West Florissant?

  • Okay. So from West Florissant, what street did you turn onto?

  • Let me back that up. No, I actually didn't get onto the street off West Florissant, I actually took

  • there is a back way off you can take to get to that street.

  • Okay. Is the near the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • Now, I might ask you to stand up here Witness Number 10. And this is an exhibit that I've marked as GJ for Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, which is a map. I showed you this map right before you came in to testify; is that right?

  • Okay. And are you familiar, do you recognize the streets or the layout as being streets that are in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • Can you see where you were working that day?

  • Can you point to it so the jurors can see?

  • (Indicating)

  • And the number where you are pointing is

  • Okay. So does this face, now, if this Canfield Drive, does the face Canfield Drive?

  • And is this a ?

  • Is the off of Canfield Drive?

  • All right. So did you have your, you can sit down now, thanks.

    Did you have your own vehicle that day?

  • What kind of vehicle were you in? A

  • And with your type of work, do you have

    things that you keep in that

  • Okay. And so you said that you were doing

    work that day, would you have occasion to have to come outside while you were working?

  • And where was your parked?

  • It was parked in the , front face towards the

  • So you pulled straight into the and the nose of your vehicle is facing the

  • Okay. And from the time you got there around that day, did you ever leave before the incident that we are here to testify about?

  • So from until something happened, was there anything else memorable about that morning?

  • And then something happened that you know why you are here to testify about. Can you just narrate for the jurors what is the first thing that you heard or saw that drew your attention?

  • Well, first thing I saw was, I came outside to get that I needed. I was just finishing up the job. I came outside to get and I seen Mike Brown and his friend walking down the street closer to the curb, not on the sidewalk and my initial thought was with me being aware of my surroundings, they were walking towards me. My initial thought was wow, that is a big guy right there, and speaking on Mike Brown.

  • So let me stop you, did you know Mike Brown before that day?

  • Had you ever seen him before?

  • And the other person that was with him, how would you describe him?

  • Short. I just recognize, I really picked up on and drew in and focused on Mike Brown because he was such a big guy and, urn, the only thing I can recall on his friend he was short, had dreads and with the color dye in his dreads and that was pretty much it.

  • So his short dreads were like tipped color; is that right?

  • Okay. And so when you first saw them, were they walking like in the direction of the apartment complex or out of the complex?

  • They were walking in the direction of the complex.

  • So they were walking this direction towards the complex?

  • And at this point, when you first saw them, were you near your ?

  • Yes, I was actually in the back door of the , urn, where it is closer to the sidewalk. And they were just coming up upon me and that's when I, me being aware of my surroundings, I just focused in on Mike Brown and his friend coming up close to me.

  • And so when you first saw them then, were they closer to West Florissant or were they past the ?

  • They were closer, like really probably I would give it maybe within 10, 15 yard range of me.

  • And do you remember, other than their sizes, do you remember anything about their clothing that drew your attention?

  • Yes, I remember Mike Brown, he had on flip flops, black, and his socks really drew attention. They were bright neon yellow with, it appeared to be marijuana symbols on them.

  • Okay. Anything else that you recall noticing about either one of them?

  • Mike Brown had a St. Louis Cardinal hat on, red St. Louis Cardinal hat.

  • That was pretty much it.

  • Did you notice, were either of them carrying anything?

  • No, I didn't notice that.

  • Okay. Did you notice them doing anything like with each other, were they interacting in a way that drew your attention?

  • No, they were just talking amongst each other.

  • So other than noticing, like you said, you are aware of your surroundings when you are working, so you see these two guys about 10, 15 feet or yards, I can't remember?

  • Yards, yards.

  • 10 or 15 yards walking in your direction, did you feel threatened by their presence at all?

  • I didn't feel threatened, I just, I don't know, I was just aware of my surroundings and just ready for, I'd rather be ready for anything that happens instead of being a surprise to me.

  • So you noticed that this one guy, and you now know the bigger guy's name is Michael Brown, correct?

  • Have you ever learned who the small, shorter guy was?

  • Yes, through the media.

  • Okay. And so what do you know his name to be?

  • It is Mr. Johnson, I believe.

  • And so when you, when you saw them, did they just continue to walk in your direction down the street?

  • Did they stop and talk to you at all?

  • Did you wave at them or did you know if you made eye contact with them at all?

  • So did they pause or stop at all?

  • So they just continued to walk down the street?

  • Did it appear that they were walking casually, leisurely, in other words, or did they appear to be in a hurry?

  • Just casual walking.

  • And at this point you said they were in the street?

  • Yes, closer to the curb.

  • Close to the curb, but still in the street?

  • Still in the street, yes.

  • Are there sidewalks at that location by the

  • And so they are in the street, but closer to the curb?

  • Were they walking in, I guess what I'm going to say, the correct lane of traffic. So in our country and you are driving on a two way street you stay to the right?

  • So were they on the right side or were they walking like against the traffic?

  • No, they were walking with the traffic.

  • Okay. And so how long did you see them or have them in your sight before you didn't see them any more?

  • Urn, I would say within maybe a minute or less. Like I said, I was just out getting, out retrieving my tools to go back in the to wrap it up. After they passed me, that's when I went into the

  • Okay. So you took your or whatever, and went into the ?

  • When is the next time you come outside?

  • I forgot something, to get something out. I went out to get something else from the I would say it was maybe within a two minute time span.

  • And what did you see or hear when you came out the second time?

  • Well, when I came out the second time, the way the view of the is --I guess I use the pointer?

  • Sure, you can use that.

  • My is parked actually right here. The front door of the facing the street. I came out of the and when I came out walking towards the , this is still open right here because I did not drive all the way up

    So my view of sight as seeing the police car right.

  • If you need to get up to look at the names or anything, feel comfortable to do that.

  • Okay. Police car was right about here.

    (indicating)

  • Okay. And so if Canfield Drive, I will describe that as a horseshoe, is that fair to say?

  • The police car was like right in between the two legs of the horseshoe?

  • Which direction was it facing?

  • It was facing towards me.

  • So it was facing West Florissant?

  • And was the car, police vehicle moving or was it still when you saw it?

  • It was still, it was at a slight slant.

  • Okay. And so what then did you see happen?

  • I seen Mike Brown was leaned over inside the police officer's window. I didn't see Mr. Johnson at any moment during this time.

  • So did you see where he went or anything?

  • So when you come back out, you don't see him?

  • You just see Mr. Brown?

  • I just see Mr. Brown inside the police officer's window. It appeared as some sort of confrontation was taking place. After that, that took place for seconds, I'm not sure how long. I know that it appeared that some confrontation was taking place.

    And one shot, the first shot was let loose and after the first shot, Mike Brown came out of the window and took off running.

    With that happening, I thought instantly because the police officer didn't immediately react on how I would have thought it would have went down. Where he didn't immediately get out of his car and chase after Mike Brown.

    So my initial thought was that wow, did I just witness this young guy kill a police officer.

    So after that, Mike Brown ran some distance, the police officer exited his vehicle with his weapon drawn, pursuing Mike Brown, and I would say Mike Brown, he stopped right here. He was turning into this driveway right here, but he stopped right here.

    The officer was already in pursuit of him. He stopped. He did turn, he did some sort of body gesture, I'm not sure what it was, but I know it was a body gesture. And I could say for sure he never put his hands up after he did his body gesture, he ran towards the officer full charge.

    The officer fired several shots at him and to give an estimate, I would say roughly around five to six shots was fired at Mike Brown.

    Mike Brown was still coming towards the officer and at this point I'm thinking, wow, is this officer missing Mike Brown at this close of a range.

    Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that's when Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with this driveway. (indicating)

    And during this whole time there was a blue Monte Carlo parked almost right where that car is while this altercation was taking place.

    And the car drove around and stopped right here and when Mike Brown collapsed in the street, that's when his friend came out, I don't know out of what direction he came from. All I know is I seen him run across from in front of the squad car and he ran across and he stopped like evenly with the car that was parked right here and yelled, "he just killed him, he just killed him."

    I'm not sure if he was speaking with the people that were in the car or if he knew them. He never leaned over to address them, he just yelled it. After he yelled it, he ran off through the back fields of Canfield.

  • All right. Now, I'm going to start at the beginning and we are going to kind of go through this a little bit and I'm going to ask you more detailed questions to clarify.

    So from the time that you came outside, and you said you were at the back of your ?

  • When I first seen Mike Brown.

  • Okay. The second time you came out, where exactly were you then?

  • I was in front, actually, at the corner of the in front of the in front of my

  • Did you change your position during this entire scenario?

  • Like did you run down towards the street or anything?

  • Did you run out into the street?

  • So you just stayed where you were?

  • And from where you were, did you have a line of sight where you could see, you described Michael Brown as actually coming to a point where he was almost turning onto Copper Creek Court?

  • Could you see that from where you were?

  • So when you first look down that street, you said you saw Michael Brown in the officer's window?

  • So describe for the jurors how, what you mean by that?

  • Half of his body, his feet was still planted on the ground, his upper body was inside the window in a leaning motion inside the window, his upper body was inside.

  • Now so is that the first thing you see when you look that he's already got his upper body inside the car?

  • So anything that happened before that, you didn't

  • I never seen it.

  • witness? Did you hear tires squealing or anything?

  • Anybody screaming or yelling?

  • Okay. So when you saw that, what did you see, could you see into the windshield of the officer's car?

  • No, I could just see him leaned over inside the officer's car.

  • So who's him?

  • Okay. And so you said his head was inside the window?

  • His shoulders?

  • His upper body?

  • Okay. And could you see the officer from that vantage point?

  • Could you see what was going on inside the car?

  • Not really, no.

  • Can you see was the vehicle moving at all?

  • Was Mike Brown moving at all?

  • It appeared to be.

  • Okay. And can you describe, I don't want to put the words in your mouth, I want you to describe what you saw when you say it appeared to be that he was moving?

  • It appeared to be some sort of confrontation taking place in the vehicle. I couldn't make it out, I couldn't say who did what within that time span within that vehicle. All I know is that it just looked out of the norm with somebody being leaned over inside the police officer's car.

  • Okay. So did you hear anything, like yelling, were they yelling at each other or anybody yelling?

  • Okay. So I can be clear on this, is it that you didn't hear anything or there wasn't yelling?

  • I didn't hear anything.

  • Okay. And so you believed there was an altercation, is it a physical altercation or just a verbal altercation?

  • For me I would think it was a physical with being, him being inside the vehicle.

  • Okay. And so, and then you said that went on for a few seconds?

  • And then you heard a gunshot?

  • Have you heard a gunshot before?

  • And you recognize that sound as a gunshot?

  • And how many gunshots did you hear at that point?

  • And then what did you say Mike Brown did at that point?

  • At that point, he exited, he took hisself out of the vehicle, removed hisself from the vehicle and ran towards the complex, deeper into the complex.

  • So at the time that you heard that single gunshot, was Michael Brown's upper body, as you described, inside the police vehicle?

  • And so when he, how long after that shot does his body come out of the vehicle?

  • Almost immediately.

  • Okay. And then how long after his body comes out of the vehicle does he turn and start to run?

  • Immediately.

  • And then you said that it took sometime longer than you would have expected before the officer got out of his vehicle?

  • And can you give me just in your best estimate, are we talking seconds or minutes?

  • No, seconds, maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

  • Okay. And do you remember what kind of vehicle this is?

  • Yes, it is a truck, I think maybe a Tahoe like style, SUV.

  • A bigger SUV?

  • And so when the officer got out of his vehicle, did he get out from the driver's door?

  • And did he shut the driver's door do you recall or did he leave it open?

  • I don't recall that.

  • And did you, did it appear to you, when you saw Mike Brown turn and run away, did you see any blood?

  • Did it appear to you in any way that he was somehow injured, Mike Brown?

  • Okay. When the officer gets out of his vehicle, did it look to you as if he was injured in any way?

  • Okay. And so how long, and you said now when he gets out of the vehicle, he has already got his gun drawn?

  • And when you say gun drawn, you mean out of his holster?

  • In his hand?

  • And do you recall which hand?

  • His right hand.

  • And when he first gets out of the vehicle, how long before he then starts to pursue, as you said, Michael Brown?

  • He immediately starts to pursue.

  • And so as he begins to pursue him, can you describe his pace? You said Michael Brown was running, correct?

  • And how would you describe the officer's pace?

  • And was he, what was he doing with his gun as he was running?

  • Just carrying as he was running towards Mike Brown.

  • Okay. Can you stand up for a second and show me where, if you use your right hand and make like a gun thing with your right hand. How was he, when he was running, how was he, hand running, how was that gun?

  • Like in a running, just as you run normally.

  • Okay. So he wasn't walking with the gun pointed in the direction of Michael Brown?

  • Or pointed in the direction of Michael Brown?

  • Okay. You can sit back down.

    And so when the officer started running after Michael Brown, can you give me an estimate as to how far Michael Brown was ahead of the officer, in other words, he got a little bit of a head start, correct?

  • How far was he in front of the officer when the officer started running?

  • I would say the police car is right here, so Mike Brown maybe was about this far before the officer exited his vehicle and within that time I would say the officer maybe was here when Mike Brown stopped there.

  • Okay. So you initially describe that when the officer got out of his vehicle, Mike Brown was close to where this like, this car is on this map?

  • Yeah, I would say.

  • More around Caddiefield Road?

  • Okay. And then the officer immediately pursues him and does Michael Brown continue to run down Canfield?

  • And then does the officer close the gap or do they remain, you know, do they remain that distance apart or does the officer close the gap?

  • He starts to close the gap when Mike Brown stops right here. And I would say the officer is right at the D, for drive. (indicating)

  • Did you hear or see the officer fire his weapon as Mike Brown was running away?

  • Do you know, I don't want you to guess, other than maybe if you observed something that caused you to assume, but do you know why Mike Brown stopped and turned around?

  • No, I'm not sure. That is something that I wrestle with to this day, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if he knew the people that was in that car and he thought maybe he had time to go back to wrestle with this officer. To this day, why would he turn around and not give himself up.

  • And so during the time the officer is running after him, do you hear the officer saying anything?

  • And do you hear Mike Brown saying anything?

  • No. I'm at a distance where I don't hear anything. All I can do is just see what's going on.

  • So you're not saying that there wasn't anything said, you just didn't hear anything?

  • Okay. And so now you testified that when Mike Brown gets to around the corner, or the corner of Canfield Drive and Copper Creek Court is where he turns around; is that right?

  • And does he, the whole time before he turns around, is he running the whole time?

  • Running with his back to where the officer is?

  • And then you say he turns around and what does the officer do when Michael Brown stops and turns around?

  • So at that point, are they still the same distance or is it a little closer gap?

  • The officer is right there, Mike Brown stops right there. (indicating)

  • And so you indicated that the officer was right about where the D or the abbreviation for drive on Canfield Drive would be?

  • And Mike Brown, you indicated, was maybe in the grassy area or even on the sidewalk?

  • At the corner of Copper Creek Court and Canfield Drive?

  • Okay. And then what did you see happen next after Mike Brown turned around, where were his hands?

  • Down by his side.

  • Now, you indicate that he did some kind of body gesture?

  • And so, of course, you know that this has been a point that people have talked about, correct?

  • Can you describe for them what you mean when you said you saw him do a body gesture. If you need to stand up to demonstrate, you can do that too?

  • I can't say for sure what sort of body gesture, I cannot recall fully. All I know is it was not in a surrendering motion of I'm surrendering, putting my hands up or anything, I'm not sure. If it was like a shoulder shrug or him pulling his pants up, I'm not sure. I really don't want to speculate things and that's what I have to say for that.

  • Okay. So turn, Mike Brown turns around, makes that gesture, then how long before he then moves in the direction of the officer?

  • Immediately after he did his body gesture, he came for force, full charge at the officer.

  • And full charge, I guess, is running?

  • And was he, could you hear him say anything or make any noise?

  • And is it because you were so far away you didn't hear anything or you saying that there was no noise?

  • No, I was so far away I could not hear anything.

  • Okay. And let me ask you this, how is your vision?

  • Pretty good.

  • Okay. Do you wear glasses or contacts?

  • And how about your hearing, is that pretty good as well?

  • All right. And so as you then see Mike Brown begin to charge at the officer, how far does he get before you said the officer fires a number of shots?

  • The officer is right here. I would say Mike Brown gets to right there, even with the car before the officer starts to fire.

  • Okay. And just for the record, when you say even with the car, we are talking about the car that's on this map?

  • That's in the map, it is just a random vehicle that happen to be on that street when they took this picture, correct?

  • That car wasn't actually there that day?

  • Now, you have talked about there being a car in that vicinity?

  • Okay. But we're just talking about the car that's on the map?

  • So you say Mike Brown got about even with that white car that's on the map?

  • And then how many shots did you think you heard?

  • Urn, five to six shots.

  • All right. And could you see the officer with his gun in his hand?

  • Are you sure it was the officer that was firing?

  • And was he firing in the direction of Mike Brown?

  • And then you said at that point does Mike Brown continue to go forward or does he stop at that point?

  • He continues to come forward.

  • And you made mention, I'm not sure if it was at that point, is it at this point that you thought oh, my God, he's missed him at that close range?

  • So when you heard those five or six shots, did you see any blood on Mike Brown that you could see?

  • Did you see him react in any way that might make you think that he was hit, like, you know, flinching or anything?

  • It was more kind of a flinch, yes.

  • It was more of a flinch and, urn, with my thoughts of, I thought he was missing him because me thinking if you get shot, you are going to go down. With those multiple shots and he was still standing, that's the reason why I thought he was missing.

  • Okay. And then, but you said he continued to come?

  • Did he slow his pace or did he, was he still at a charge?

  • He gradually slowed his pace. And it became, it came to a stop and when he stopped, the officer ceased fire and he began to charge once more, and that's when the officer with fatal rounds.

  • So when he became, when he stopped, about how many seconds or fraction of seconds do you think it was before he began to charge again?

  • I would give it maybe two seconds.

  • Okay. And then how far did you get on that, after stopping and then he's charging again, how far did he get about, if you can estimate feet, that's fine, or if you want to say how many steps he may have taken, that's fine too?

  • Maybe five to six steps.

  • And then when he, you said, and then the officer began shooting again?

  • And about how many rounds do you think you heard then?

  • Three to four.

  • You said that was the fatal rounds, did you see Mike Brown then

  • --collapse onto the pavement?

  • And did you, after he collapsed, did the officer continue to fire?

  • And did you see the officer, did he go up to Mike Brown's body at that point?

  • At that point, something else had caught my attention, Mr. Johnson caught my attention at that time when he ran across the street.

  • At that point you are not necessarily looking at the officer and Mike Brown, you are focusing on Mr. Johnson?

  • And you recognized him as the shorter guy who had been with Mike Brown that you had seen earlier?

  • And so you said he ran around like in front of the police vehicle?

  • And then ran toward this area where you said you had seen this car?

  • And this was a car that had been over here?

  • And had pulled around this horseshoe driveway, correct?

  • Around Building Number 18?

  • And you heard Dorian Johnson say what?

  • "He just killed him, he just killed him."

  • Okay. And then you said he then ran into the back of the complex, did you ever see him again?

  • Okay. Were you, what did you do after you saw that?

  • After I saw that, I went into the

  • I was working at, and told the what I just witnessed and stayed in for maybe

    minutes speaking with , and I came back out and that's when I seen they were taping off the scene.

  • So by the time you came back out, other police officers were there?

  • Was the police officer who was involved in the shooting, was his car still in the street?

  • And about, was it all Ferguson vehicle's at that point or was County already there?

  • And then did you stand outside and kind of watch what was going on for a while?

  • Yeah, when I came back out, they were taping off the scene. I came back, I walked down here to right there where the body was pretty much even with that street. And I was just, just in shock and speaking with another resident. I don't know if was a resident, another that was out at the scene talking with

  • So you were speaking to somebody else who was just a bystander that was looking at what had happened?

  • You didn't know that person?

  • Did you later learn who it was?

  • Have you ever seen again?

  • Now, are you aware, I mean, did you notice that day that there were people with cell phones that were like filming or taping, not taping, we don't use tape, but recording what was going on while, the aftermath I'll call it?

  • Now, at some point in this investigation have officers involved in the investigation that you talked to, did they talk to you about whether or not

  • Okay. A Q A Q

  • And is it the aftermath, so it is after the shooting?

  • All right. A

    I did contact the FBI to figure out, urn, what precautions I needed to take.

  • Okay. So now you mention that you talked to the police and gave a tape recorded interview after this incident, correct?

  • Yes. Q