Let me just real quick here look. So this is about an hour four minutes. It says, okay. So we will start this.
Today is September 11th, 2014 the time is 3:11 p.m. In the room is?
And her attorney. And I'm with the FBI and this is , she's with the Department of Justice and right over there
with the attorney's office in St. Louis. I know your attorney has already spoken to you, we are going to talk to you today about what happened on August 9th of this year. So with that being said, I think would like to say an opening paragraph or two and then we will start with what you saw on that day.
I'm actually going to do it. So and I are both federal prosecutors. I'm based in Washington D.C., he's based here in St. Louis. Obviously, we're with the FBI. We wanted to talk to you because we know that you are already met with the St. Louis County police detective, but we are doing our own individual investigations, that is why we want to meet with you and hear what you have to say, okay?
Okay. So basically, as you know, everything is being recorded. So if you nod your head or shake your head and I will say is that a yes or no.
Okay. That's just to get your answers out loud so when we listen to it afterwards, we don't have to guess what your reaction was, right?
And if you don't understand a question that any of us ask you, please stop us and make us clarify because, you know, we intend to talk fast sometimes.
Uh-huh. And sometimes we ask bad questions. We try not to, but if you answer we are going to assume that you understood. If at any point you get confused or --don't just guess, you were the one that was there.
We are certainly not trying to suggest an answer. If you think we are looking for an answer, all we are looking for is the truth.
So, urn, want to make sure that you feel comfortable in answering the questions and certainly feel free to correct us if we mischaracterize it, okay:
Okay. And we tell this to all the witnesses, this is a federal investigation and if any witness lies to the FBI, anything that is material or important it is a crime, I like to make sure that everybody knows that.
Okay. Urn, and also really important, we're not going to tell anybody what you told us, so we're not going to go to another witness and say, you know, said this or said that, just like we're not going to say to you, I know a witness told us something different or told us something the same.
So it is really important for us to find out when you actually firsthand saw and heard. And we knew a lot went on, especially that day on August 9th.
Okay, okay. And since that's normal and that's human nature.
Uh-huh. Uh, but we just want to make sure that you are actually telling us what you know versus what you assume.
Uh-huh. The example I like to give is, if you walk outside and you see that your driveway is wet, you go oh, it rained, right?
Uh-huh. That's natural, right, you immediately think of rain.
Uh-huh. And we also do the same with sprinklers on, right?
Uh-huh. Instead of telling us it is rain, just tell us what you saw.
Okay. If you don't know something or you can't remember something, that's a perfectly acceptable answer. A lot of times we like to ask details to see if we can trigger something.
Uh-huh. So we can get more details because we weren't there.
Uh-huh. So we may quiz you on some stuff. We're not trying to get an answer other than the truth. If you don't know, it's perfectly fine to say I don't know.
Okay. You have a piece of the puzzle, as do a lot of different people. All we need from you is the truth. Basically, it doesn't involve you, it is not one person, it is a whole picture, okay?
Uh-huh. Do you have any questions so far?
I don't. Okay. So could you spell your name, please?
And would you give me your date of birth, please?
(Redacted) And your social security number?
(Redacted) Where are your currently living?
(Redacted) Okay. What is your phone number?
(Redacted . Okay. I think that's all the background we need from you.
So could you just tell us in your own words and from the beginning what happened that Saturday, August the 9th.
Okay. As I was coming around the curve, I hear like tires squeaking, like "urrrr". And as I get up on the truck, I see them wrestling through the window. I tried to pull my phone out because it just didn't look normal for someone to be wrestling through a cop's window.
So I saw them like pulling back and forth, like he was trying to pull out, the cop is pulling in. And when I tried to pull my phone out, the shot came out, so I like went to the left to try to get out of the way.
As I'm going to the left, I see the kid, there ain't no way and that's when he takes off running.
The cop follows him, shooting behind him, the kid's body jerks as if he was hit, he turns around and puts his hands up and the cop continued to fire until he goes down.
Okay. Where were you coming around the corner, does this look familiar?
Yes, I was coming from Florissant, which was coming from here. I was coming around this corner right here.
Okay. You were approximately right here and where was the police officer.
They were right here. Okay. I was back here whenever I heard tire squeaking, so I was
Which direction was the car driving?
The truck was driving going that way.
Okay. So it was a truck. Yes. All right. And you said you heard the squeals of the tire and then what happened?
That's whenever I came around the corner and I saw them wrestling through the window.
Okay. So you came around this corner?
Uh-huh. And you saw who wrestling through the window?
Uh, I saw the officer and the kid wrestling through the window.
All right. Who's the kid? Michael Brown. You know him because of the media?
Yeah I didn't know him before, just the media.
Okay. I've never seen him. So you say you saw Michael Brown and the police officer here?
Right here, yeah. Okay. Tell me what happened?
As I get up to here, I see them wrestling through the window and I try to take my phone out.
Where is your phone. My phone was probably on my lap or something. I remember, because as a matter of fact, I had my phone in my hand. I was trying to call telling her I'm outside, I was going to pick her up.
Okay. So I tried to put it on record and the shot came, so I came and I turned, made a lift right here.
Uh-huh. And I pulled right into there.
Uh-huh. And the kid yanked away as I was turning this way and he started running back there.
Can you point on here where the truck was?
The truck was right here. Okay. It was like catty-corner in the street.
Okay. The kid was right there going through the window, this is the trunk, this is me, I came this way.
Uh-huh. I made a left onto here, parked right there, he started running that away.
Who is they? The officer and Michael Brown.
Okay. Was there another person with Michael Brown? Sorry to keep interrupting you, was there another person with Michael Brown?
Yeah, there was another person.
Where was he? It was a car right behind him stopped, right behind the officer. I didn't see this car until I got right here and that's whenever I saw Dorian duck down on the side of that car.
Okay. Do you know what kind of car that was?
It was a white Monte Carlo. All right. What kind of car were you diving?
I was driving a All right. So what did you see here at the vehicle, at the truck?
I saw them wrestling through the window, the officer and Michael wrestling through the window.
Uh-huh. What do you mean by that?
It appears to me as Michael is pulling off and the officer is pulling in, kind of like a tug of war.
Uh-huh. Did you see hands touching?
I saw Michael's like pushing up against the thing and whenever he yanked off, I saw his hands go like that.
Did you see the officers hands on Michael Brown at all.
I couldn't see his hands, I just saw he kept trying to pull away, I saw Michael try to pull away.
He had to be pulling away from something --
Yeah. Do you know what he was trying to pull away from?
I guess the officer, I can't say for sure like where the officer's hands was, but I did see them both pulling back and forth.
Okay. So this is where I was when I came across this grass, that is whenever I saw his body jerk right up in here and that's when he turned around and put his hands up. But the cop still, he continued to walk up on him and shoot him.
Okay. So after you saw, I'm going to call it an altercation, is that okay?
Uh-huh. Here at the vehicle, you saw what happened, how did the officer get out, what did Michael Brown do?
Okay. At this point whenever I was turning here, this is when Michael yanked away and went that way.
How did you see that if you were --
I was still turning. Just tell me what you saw and don't tell me what you assumed.
I'll telling you what I saw. This is what I saw, his arm yank away. From that point whenever I was turning this way, I wasn't all the way over here at this point.
Okay. This is what I saw with him right there as I come this way, that's whenever he was running that way, I didn't see the officer get out of the car, but I did see the kid get away and start running. Whenever I saw the officer again, he was coming back behind this way and he was shooting and the kid was probably up that way a little bit.
Okay. And the officer was where again?
He was coming out of here. Okay. Michael Brown was where?
He was up running a little ways up that way.
Okay. Do you remember how many shots?
I don't. Okay. You just heard shots? I heard several shots. Did you see the officer fire his weapon?
Yes. All right. And where was the officer when you saw this?
The officer was outside the car walking up to Michael.
Okay. What was Michael doing?
He has his hands up at that time. The first time I saw his body jerk.
Uh-huh. And then whenever the officer is walking up on him shooting, he was turned around with his hands up and he just went all the way down as the shots hit him.
Uh, could you describe how he had his hand for the recording?
Okay. He had them in the air like this, this way.
Okay. Not quite 90 degrees, but hands even with his head, with his hands even with his head?
Yeah, about up there. Did you hear the officer say anything, did you hear Michael Brown say anything?
No, I didn't hear anything from either one of them.
Okay. How many shots were fired total?
I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. But it the multiple shots or one shot.
Multiple. Multiple shots, okay. So let's start from the vehicle again, could you tell me one more time again what you saw?
From the vehicle? Uh-huh. As I was pulling up, I saw them wrestling through the window.
Uh-huh. Then the shot was fired from the car.
Okay. How many shots? One shot is fired from the car.
Do you have any idea where the shot went, if it actually hit someone?
No, I don't. Okay. And that's when he yanked away and he started running and I was coming over here. I didn't see the officer getting out of the car, but I did see him running from, like away from the car towards Michael.
Okay. And at any time did you not see something?
I didn't see whenever the officer got out of the car, but I did see him by the time he got beyond his car here, right here.
Okay, thank you. That was right here. Okay. Where were you at that time, were you inside your vehicle or did you get out?
I got right out of my vehicle, I was parked right here.
Okay. Where did you go? I went up to 's house. As I was walking up, that's whenever I seen him shooting the kid, going down with the shots.
Okay. Where does live? She lives right here. You have your vehicle here? Uh-huh. And then you started walking towards s house here?
Yeah. You said you were looking for your phone, you had your phone with you?
Uh-huh. What were you doing with your phone while this is going on?
Well, the first time I was trying to record when the shot came, and I came over here. By the time I was just holding my phone in my hand at that time. I wasn't doing anything with it by the time I came up to 's
Okay. And then I went upstairs and called my fiancee.
Okay. Who is your fiancee? Were you scared to get out of your vehicle?
I was so shocked, I was so shocked, I was trying to see what was going on. So I was like, holy crap, what is going on. The kid was dead, I saw the blood. At first I was like, is he shooting rubber bullets? What is going on.
So I was so shocked that I just got right out to try to see what was going on.
Uh-huh. Why are you calling him a kid?
Because I don't know him, I don't know him, no.
I was just curious. I'm sorry. It is not like you're 50, you look very young.
Yeah. Do you have any questions? Yeah. I just want more clarification of looking at the map.
Uh-huh. When you are coming around the curve, that is when you hear the tires squealing; is that right.
Uh-huh. That's yes, right? Yes, I'm sorry. That's fine. And at that point you don't see anything next to the car; is that correct?
No, I don't. And when he came up on the car, you actually, did you stop your car when you came up to it?
Yeah, I stopped. Okay. So were you facing the car?
Yes. Okay, or the patrol vehicle? Yes, the patrol vehicle is like this way, I was coming this way.
So you're showing you were literally opposite?
Yes. Was there a car in front of you?
No. Why did you stop your car? Because I saw the cop and the kid wrestling through the window, you don't see that every day.
And what was your view of the police officer and Michael Brown at that point?
My view was Michael like pulling out of the window and they were like a tug of war.
So you were basically head on at this point initially?
Yes. And you are still driving; is that right?
No. You're sort of out of the car? Yeah. So you are head-on, so which is clearer to you, the passenger side or the driver's side or equally both?
I say the driver's side because it was like, the car was like this way, but the SUV was like going this way, okay. This is the Chevy was like this and I was like this.
Okay. And so when you describe what you saw specifically, you saw Michael Brown, he was standing outside the car?
Yeah. Describe his body, how was his body situated?
It was like, it took like pulling away like, you know. Like, you know how you push off of something, it was more like that.
Where were his hands? At one point I saw his hand like pushing up against the car like coming off.
Okay. You said both hands? Yeah, and then whenever I saw him yank away his hand went like that.
He yanked away. And when you pulled up on them, Michael Brown was already by the car, correct?
Uh-huh. I didn't see how the thing, the first beginning of it, I didn't see that.
Okay. You didn't see anything of that leading up to it?
No. By the time you pull up, you heard a shot already or no?
No. Okay. So let's go, you describe Michael Brown had his hands on the outside of the car; is that right?
Uh-huh. Is that yes? Yes. And is hands on the window sill of the car, on the door or the car?
Like the side door. The driver's side door. Yeah. On the handle of the door, by the door handle or by the window?
He had like this I can describe like the whole time because it was action at like, you know, I can't see every little step, but I did see him pushing off like, you know.
While this is going on, you said you didn't see this every day, is that when you took out your phone?
I had my phone in my hand. I was trying to get to record, that's when the shot came.
So you got your phone? No, I'm trying to work the recorder.
I'm trying to figure out if you were watching.
No, I can't, you know, I have to push record on that phone. So I don't know every little thing, I was trying to do that sort of thing.
That's only fair. I'm just trying to find out what you actually saw. Because you say you see something like that, there were times when you looked down, that's all I'm trying to establish.
Yes. When you look down, is that when you heard the shot, is that right or no?
No. Okay, explain it. I can explain like exactly whenever the shot came, whenever I was about to record, that's when I can't say anything. I saw the bullet.
I'm trying to figure out what you were doing when the shot, when you heard the shot. Were you trying to record, were
I was about to record, I just now heard the shot. I can't say I was looking right at it. I was looking at my phone to try to hit record and I heard a shot and said, oh, let me get out of the way. That's when I went to get out of the way. I saw the kid wrestling, pulling out to the side, I saw the kid run away.
At that point you saw the kid wrestling, yank away after the shot; is that correct?
Yes. As you were driving, did you look at Michael Brown at all?
As I was driving? Yeah, as you are driving away, did you look over at the police officer and the car?
No, I went straight to the
(inaudible), that's whenever I got out. And I saw the officer come out, I saw Michael run.
All right, let's go back to when you were driving to the parking lot, okay?
Uh-huh. So from the time you heard the shot and you decided you wanted to get out of there, so you both (inaudible)
Yes. During that point that you are driving to the parking lot, you were not looking at Michael Brown and the officer in the police vehicle; is that right?
No, I was not. Okay. At any point up to that part, did you notice anything about Michael Brown or any injury of anybody at that point?
No. Whenever I looked back up, that's whenever there was more shots coming, I saw his body jerk.
Okay. You are pulling into the parking lot?
Uh-huh. You pull into the parking lot, they are not in your vision; is that correct?
The officer is still in my vision.
Even as you are pulling into the parking lot?
Yes, so, whenever I got right here, it is a parking lot. This is my parking spot right here. Right across this grass I can still see, that's when I coming this way, I did see him get out of that truck, I didn't see him coming this way.
That's what I'm saying, there's a point in there where he is out of your vision as you are driving?
Yes, I'm on the other side of his car and I can't see the driver's side door at that time.
Okay. And you park your car in a parking space?
Yeah. Where is the parking space relative to the street, is it parallel, perpendicular, are you facing the street?
Yes, I am facing the street.
Here is the parking lot? You pull like right up into here, I could still see right over here and then right out.
At any point are you trying to get your phone out to record?
I still have the phone ringing. And that time I wasn't trying to record anything and I was in shock.
Okay. So you pull into the parking lot, what's the next thing you see when you pull into your space?
When I pull into my space, I see the officer running behind shooting.
Okay. You didn't see the officer out, correct?
No. So you don't know what happened from there to the time you looked down at your phone initially to the time you pull into the spot, you heard the shot, you didn't see that because you were running into the spot; is that right?
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Okay. Put down my phone to record, I had to put down the phone at that time to hit the record, that's whenever I heard the shot come so. I get out of the way so I did see the kid yank like this.
I'm sorry, you saw him yank hard?
Yeah, and he run off. So you saw the kid run off? Yes. At that point the officer
(inaudible) follow you; is that correct.
I didn't see exactly when he got out of the car.
So now you are in the parking lot and you parked, what's the next thing you see when you parked?
I saw the officer running. Okay. You say you saw Michael Brown running also?
Yes, I saw the officer running off shooting and I saw his body jerk.
Okay. Can you describe anything about the manner in which Michael Brown was running at that point?
What do you mean, like fast, slow?
For example, did you see where his hand were as he was running?
No, I can't say where his hand were, I just know he was running.
Okay. Did you notice Michael Brown had any injuries to his body on him?
No. Okay. And at this point, when you got out of your car, you park your car, do you hear any other shots?
Yeah, multiple shots. Multiple shots. This is between the time, can you be more specific, between the time you pulled in and parked on this spot, at that time after the first shot, did you hear any shots?
Yes. About how many. I can't say how many shots were fired.
You got out of your car, is that what was next?
Yeah. At that point is when you see the officer running; is that correct?
Uh-huh. You say maybe the officer was firing shots?
Yes. How do you know? I heard him firing shots. About how many? I don't know. I can't tell you exactly how many shots were fired at all. The only time I just remember that one shot came from the car, after that I can't say how many shots were fired.
Okay. Can you say more than two or more than three?
Yes, it was multiple. It was multiple times? Yes. Okay. And so at some point you said Michael Brown stops; is that correct?
Yes. Can you describe what you saw, anything about him?
I saw his body jerk, I saw him turn around and put his hands up. He looked like a big tall man, I didn't know he was a kid.
Okay. When his body jerked, where were his hands?
It was like oh, like, you know.
And you saw his body jerking? Yeah. You are kind of demonstrating jerking forward?
Yeah, from behind, yeah from behind jerking.
Did you notice where his hands were?
When. At that point whenever he jerked, did you notice his hands?
That's when he went up and he turned around and he started, I can't say what he was doing in front of him, but at that time he was running. It was really fast though. He wasn't doing anything with his hand, like once his body jerked, it jerked, I can't say where.
Okay. I was listening to you and you say his body jerk and he started turn around
He started putting them up as he is turning around.
Okay. What did the officer do? He continued to walk up on him and shoot until he goes down.
Okay. He walked up to Michael Brown shooting, is what you are saying?
He kept walking, he kept walking and shooting until Michael falls down. And he just walked up on him and just stop and shoot.
So the whole time he just kept on shooting?
Yes. So as you seem to remember it basically he just continued the shots basically
Yes. Were there any pauses in the shooting?
Yes, there was a pause. When. I can't say exactly when. Okay so, has one shot and then a couple more shots and then more shots. I can't say like exactly this is happening when the pause happened. Like, I don't know, the shots were coming.
So you are saying Michael Brown turned around, the officer just kind of kept on with it, he kept on shooting.
Yes. And you're saying that the officer came up on Michael Brown and got closer and closer as he was shooting?
Yes. How close did the officer get to Michael Brown?
It was feet away, I can't say exactly how, like the exact measurement of it, but it was like feet away.
Was it arm's lenth from each other?
No. Further away? Yeah, further away. Distance to the wall? Further away from the wall. From me to the wall? Uh-huh. I'll say probably from me to the wall.
I'm not good with feet or distances.
Me either. 8 feet, 8 or 9 feet? I can't say anything about feet.
Do you remember anything about the expression of Michael Brown's face was at that time?
No. And so from what you are telling us is that Michael Brown got to that point, stopped, turned around and stayed there because the officer came up on him.
Yes. All right. And this entire time you are watching this, you're outside of your car as you are walking to 's apartment?
Yes. Do you have your phone in your hand?
I know I have my phone in my hand.
Were you trying to call at all while you are there?
I was in shock, I wasn't calling anybody. First call I made was when I got to her.
About the time you see Michael Brown go to the ground, you were getting out of your car and walking to her apartment; is that correct?
Yes. Where were you when you heard the first shot?
In the car. Where were you when you heard the second shot?
When I was parking getting out of the car.
Where were you when
When I heard the last shot and I saw the kid go down I was about right here.
Okay. You say these were like
(inaudible) shots or they were regular just shots being fired as he was going?
I would say they were regular shots as they were going. There was a pause probably, but it was like, I don't know like what you're asking, but they were shots.
You heard a group of shots and then a pause and then a group and a pause?
Yeah, yeah. You heard a shot, a shot, shot? Oh, no, there were groups and then pause groups, yeah.
What about at the end you said the officer was walking up to him?
He was just shooting, then he stopped, he was just shooting, then he stopped.
Okay. Why did the officer stop shooting?
I guess because he went down.
You saw Michael Brown Yeah, I saw him like slap the ground.
Slow down for a second. When you saw Michael turn around, he stayed where he was and the officer came up to him.
Uh-huh. Is that correct? Yes. And then after that, the officer, urn, (inaudible)
Yeah. If fact, I believe you said you saw the officer go and get on his radio; is that right?
I didn't just say that. No, you didn't. In the past, is it true that you seen
Yeah, I saw him touch his radio. I can't say what he said, but I did see him touch the radio and another officer immediately like pulled up right after.
I want to be clear. Once Michael Brown is on the ground, Officer Wilson did not go over to Michael Brown's body; is that correct?
No, he did not. In fact, you didn't see any officer go over to the (inaudible)
No, I did not. Okay. And you were watching the whole time, correct?
Uh-huh. That's a yes, right. Yes. And you saw Officer Wilson somehow either touch his radio, do something with his radio.
Yes, he touched it. And this is right after Michael Brown went to the ground?
Yes. And after that you went to s apartment, right?
Uh-huh. Is that a yes? Yes, I'm sorry. When you went to s, what did you do when you went up there?
She was standing on the porch and she had her phone out and she was crying. She was like, I just saw him shoot him. I said I know, I saw it too.
And hen I called my fiancee and I told him what happened. He says you need to call somebody and tell them what you saw.
And so who did you call? So I called the news. So your fiancee said you need to call someone and you call the news?
Uh-huh. Why did you call the news? Because what I saw wasn't right.
Why did you choose the news as opposed to anybody else, why did you choose the news?
I think they should know what happened to this kid.
Who else did you call? Urn, I think I called my
(inaudible) I know I called Channel 2 and Channel 4, and I know I called him back.
Okay. Did you talk with at the time?
We didn't really talk about it, she just said, I just saw him shoot him. I said yeah, I saw it too. There is like pacing back and forth, like what the --just happened.
Okay. I'm sorry, you did an interview with the St. Louis County Police Department?
Yes. In those two hours, can you tell us what you were doing?
In those two hours, I was standing up on the porch and looking around, like people start just coming around. Urn, we were just standing on the porch like looking around, what did just happen.
Were people talking about what they saw?
We were up on the balcony, and I can't say, and me and was on the balcony. One of the police, they might from the county police, it was the officer standing right there at the bottom of the steps. I said, yeah, I want to talk to somebody.
They said hey, let me (inaudible) Right now I need you to stay up here so we can get this crowd under control.
Did you talk to any of the other neighbors and talk about what you saw?
No. Did you talk to at that time?
Yeah. Did you know that there was another person out there?
Uh-huh. On the street with Michael Brown; is that right?
Yes. Did you know him? No. Did you know if knows him? No. Okay. Had you ever seen either one of them before?
No. Did you see any other vehicle, you said that you saw this one that was behind the police vehicle, did you see any other vehicles?
I saw a black vehicle and it was like coming up behind, I don't remember exactly where this vehicle came, right after the shooting where he backed up, it went through one of those driveways.
Okay. It wasn't -- Yeah. Okay. I just want to go back to the part where you saw, this is just how the interview, when you first saw the police SUV. You had described before this tussle going on. Were you able to see what the officer was doing?
I can't see inside the car, I can't see but I can't see fully back and forth.
When you say tug of war that that's what (inaudible) what was the officer, based upon you saying tug of war, what you actually saw.
It looked like he was pulling in and Michael was trying to pull out.
Who was playing? The officer. Did you see the officer's hands?
I can't, no, I can't say I saw his hands.
What makes you, I'm not trying to, I just don't understand. What makes you think he was pulling him in?
I saw the kid like pulling away. I saw like him try to pull him in and he actually pulled away, he's not just doing this.
So you saw --is Michael Brown has two hands on the car, you saw him pushing back; is that right?
Yes. Do you see, I mean, is it anybody --
I know for a fact that whenever he was pulling away, he had his shirt like this. (inaudible) I can't say exactly where the officer's hands were, but like they were both pulling.
So you are showing me when Michael Brown pulled away, (inaudible)
Yeah, I saw his sleeve like pull, like he was pulling away.
Did you see any hand pulling him?
I don't remember seeing that.
So from your vantage point, you say Michael with his hands on the outside of the car and you assume pushing away?
Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. And you don't see the officer rose his hands anywhere?
No, I can't remember seeing his hands.
Is there any part of Michael Brown that is inside the vehicle?
Another side of his head is in the window. They were wrestling back and forth throughout the whole thing.
Just help me understand this. How is it, you said, his hands up (inaudible)
What do you mean? Well, you told me when you saw him they were pulling away.
They're pulling away, he had to be pulling away from something. Something was holding him through the window.
Well, you showed that he was pushing off?
Yeah. So how do you know he was being pulled in, though, if you can't see somebody pulling in. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand what you saw.
Uh-huh. Someone pushed away -- Do you want me to say that I saw the cops hand pulling him in, no.
I don't want you to say anything.
No. Let me be very clear to you, I want you to say what you know happened and I'm trying to understand it.
I'm telling you what I know happened. I don't get, okay, saying where were the officer's hands. I can't say where the officer's hands were, but I did see him pulling away. He is pulling away from something because something is pulling him back in. So I can't say exactly where those cop hands was, but I did see tug of war going on through this window.
You didn't see the officer pulling him in, correct?
I didn't see his hands pulling him in.
Okay. Well, I think is confused because she said that his head was inside, his hands are pushing away, so how is his head inside and his hands are pushing away?
I don't know exactly, like, I don't know.
I mean, is it bent in the wind? Yeah, it is like a bend, like what I showed you the first time. It is like their pulling, he is pulling back.
You are showing me pushing back, maybe we are using different words or the same thing. Are you assuming that somebody was pulling him in or can you tell me that somebody was pulling him in, you see what the difference is?
Yeah, I see what you are saying. So I'm not assuming something.
When you, yourself, could see him like that?
Uh-huh. You see Michael Brown's two hands on the door; is that right?
Uh-huh. Yes. Yes. Okay. And you see, now you see his head, is his head inside the window, outside the window?
It was like, at the time I saw his head in the window, yes. It was like a pull back or something.
Did his head go into the window so that it disappeared from your view?
No, like no, it didn't disappear from my view.
So, I mean, if it is any different than somebody coming over to the car and talking to them, is that what you are saying you saw?
No, I saw like a pull, like a wrestle, I can't say I exactly saw where the cops hands were, but I did see a wrestle.
I don't understand what wrestle means?
Like a tussle back and forth.
Let me ask you this. You see Michael's hands on the doors pushing against the door?
Uh-huh. He is pushing himself away from it?
Yes. Could you tell whether he was pushing himself away from the door or pushing on the door, was the door closed at the time?
Yeah, the door was closed. Did you see the door open? No, they always had the door closed.
Could you tell the difference whether he was pushing against the door to keep it closed or pushing himself away from the door, could you tell that?
It was like he was pushing away from the door, like trying to pull off. Like the only time I saw like a tug on Michael is whenever his arm, he was trying to like yank away and like his shirt was like, you know.
So when you are on the news you told, actually that his whole body stayed out of the vehicle the whole time that you saw him; is that right?
Uh-huh. So no part of Michael Brown's body was in the vehicle from what you saw?
No, like I saw them pulling back and forth. I never seen like his whole body be inside of his vehicle.
Did you see anyone else, like someone walking by, anyone on foot that may have witnessed this?
No, I don't remember seeing anyone else.
Is that because you were so focused?
Yeah, what was going on, so I can't say I seen anybody else.
You can't say there was somebody else around?
Yeah. We need to take a break, is that okay?
Uh-huh. Do you mind if we leave the recording on or if we turn it off.
You can leave it on.