The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everyone says good morning.)

  • It is Tuesday, September 30th at 8:32 a.m. Present is myself, Kathi Alizadeh, and Sheila Whirley of St. Louis County Prosecutor's Office. All 12 grand jurors are present as well as the court reporter, who is audio recording and taking down everything that is being said this morning.

    I want to give a little pep talk to you as it were. I can only imagine the disruption that this causes in all of your lives and schedules, and I hope you know how appreciative that we are that we have the 12 of you who have agreed, even though maybe your arms were twisted a little bit, but agreed to, you know, devote the time and effort that this matter takes.

    Don't think I'm understating it or overstating it to say how important this is. And I know you all, you know, since you're not a jury, there is no admonition that you not watch the news and anything like that, and I know that you can't really avoid seeing things about this in the news and, you know, not only here locally, but as well throughout the country. This is a very public matter and it is very important that we get this right.

    And, as you know, Mr. McCulloch made a statement in the very beginning we were going to be as thorough as possible. And that means anybody who says that they saw part of this or knows something about it, is going to be able to be heard.

    Even people that are reluctant to come in, we're going to do whatever we can to get them here because it is important that you have all the facts and information.

    And I know sometimes it seems like it is very tedious because some of these eyewitnesses have made multiple statements and again, Mr. McCulloch has promised that there wasn't going to be anything that you didn't have the opportunity or weren't able to see or hear, and that means playing all of these statements for you.

    And we do that because, obviously, there is times when if a witness makes multiple statements, sometimes over time their statements changes, sometimes dramatically, sometimes only slightly and insignificantly, but I think that those are things that you all have a right to consider when the witness testifies, if they've made previous statements that are different than what maybe they are telling you in the grand jury.

    That happens in every case, every time a witness makes a prior statement, that statement can be brought up, as you know well, you said this previously, how come you are changing your story.

    And, you know, neither Sheila and I are prepping these witnesses in the way we would if we were having a trial. We try cases, we have our witnesses come in and we talk to them about what is going to happen, we go over what their testimony is going to be, not in the sense like rehearsing, we want to know what they're going to say before they get up there and testify.

    And that's just good lawyering. No one would ever expect me to put on a witness in a trial when I didn't know what they were going to say.

    But in this case, you know, we don't want to have to, we don't want to in any way influence what these people are going to come forward and say to you. And so we don't do any prepping with any of these witnesses, other than to explain to them what is going to happen when they come in here, the process. So I don't know what they're going to say when they get here.

    I mean, I have an idea because they've made prior statements, I assume they are going to say something like they said before, but the reality is, I don't know, and that's why it is important that we play for you those prior statements so that you know what they have said previously and can compare that to what they say today when they testify.

  • lot of times, I know it is tedious and it seems redundant, why are we hearing this person say the same thing now three times.

    If the person makes the same statement three times, you may consider that when you are deliberating about how that, what that means for that person's credibility, their ability to have observed what they say they saw and recall what they say they saw. Those were all things that I think are important because there are a lot of people that see bits and pieces of what happened that day, and I think you can even see right now how, you know, depending on where you were standing, it affects what maybe you say you saw, and that's human nature too.

    So, again, Sheila and I are not worried, but very, we're concerned about the speed that this is coming in. We're going to do our best to try to kick it up if we can.

  • lot of these eyewitnesses you are going to hear from who have made multiple statements, we expect that hopefully that's going to be less and less and eventually, you know, we'll get through the eyewitnesses, and then you are going to hear from ballistics people, and lab people, and DNA people, and, of course, those witnesses don't have prior recorded statements that we'll have to present to you. They may have reports that you will get copies of, but at any rate, I know that this is tedious. I know you want your lives back, your lives back the way they were. All I can tell you is that this will be over at some point, this is not indefinite, and we're doing everything we can to try to get through this as quickly as possible. We were hearing the other day that there is rumors that you all are going to be done this week. I'm here to tell you, no, that's not happening. Originally, we had made estimates we would get done about the end of October, early November. We may go into mid November. As I said in the beginning, if this takes until January for you all to have what you need to make this decision, then that's what we're going to have to do. We'll do it as quickly as we can without rushing through it and skipping through things that need to be done. So that being said, I truly, truly apologize for the disruption in your lives. You all really seem to be a great group of people, I'm so glad you all get along as you do, it would be awful if we had people that, you know, had conflicts and bickering going on. You all seem to be, as best as you can, hanging in there with us. So, again, Sheila and I thank you for your patience. So that being said, yes.

  • I have a question. I try not to watch the news, I try not to read anything about this because I like to have an open mind so I have all the facts that is presented here.

    My concern is that, urn, my concern is that everybody is saying hurry up, hurry up, hurry up, from what I'm hearing. Hurry up, make a decision, hurry up and get this done, hurry up and get that done.

    And I know that this information has been disseminated. I know Mr. McCulloch before has said there is a process and this is the process that we have to follow.

    Is the NAACP, or these other, you know, coalitions, are they confirming what he is saying to the people of Ferguson? I mean, I don't know if you can comment on that, but.

  • Well, all I can tell you

    I think everybody needs to rachet it down a little bit and let us do what we can do. I have faith and trust in everybody in here, you know, to make the decision that's appropriate. I'm not saying it is the right decision, I'm not saying it is the wrong decision, but make the decision that's appropriate based on the facts. But is that being disseminated by these groups or whatever to the people there?

  • Well, there has been, as I said, there have been rumors, I think there was someone who had tweeted yesterday, a person of public, a public person that, you know, I hear unverified rumor the grand jury is going to have their decision by Friday. I don't know where they get this stuff. I don't know where that comes from, but I know that last week and yesterday Mr. McCulloch did give interviews to the media.

    Last week he gave interviews to several media outlets describing the process. The fact how a grand jury is selected, you know.

    My office has nothing to do with how you all are selected. The fact that you were selected way before this even, you know, happened, you know. And then the process of how, you know, when you have regular lives, this is not like a jury in a trial where Monday through Friday from 8:00 to 5:00 you are going to be here until it is done. That's not how it works. In a trial that's how it work, I mean.

    We have jurors that we have to tell them in advance this is going to be a two-week trial, this is going to be a three-week trial. But he has made those statements and, you know, I can't, I can't help what goes around in the rumor mill. I don't think we have much control over that.

    But I will express to him those thoughts that if any wisdom in trying to bring together some of the people in the various communities who can disseminate that message that, you know, be patient.

    I mean, there is that catch phrase people always talk about, rush to judgment. That was a phrase made popular years ago. People keep saying hurry up, hurry up. We're not going to rush to judgment here.

    If we wanted to, we could present this case as we do any other case. We could have a detective come in here and tell you what he thinks, you know, the evidence is, and then you all would be making your own decision based on that, but that's not how we've chosen to do this because of the importance of letting all sides be heard in this matter.

    So I will talk to Mr. McCulloch about the strategy behind that, that it might be, because we all want everybody to just calm down. It will happen, there will be an answer, but you have to be patient, you have to let the grand jury do their job, you have to let us do our job.

    And, you know, the problem is too, we can't tell people how often you're meeting, what days you're meeting, how many witnesses are testifying, because we're prohibited from talking about that.

    And so when people ask questions how often are they meeting or how many hours a week or how many witnesses are they hearing from, we can't answer those questions.

    I think just the fact that the questions are asked and we can't answer it, I wonder if that might create even more like, well, why aren't you telling us this.

    So I will talk to him and maybe we'll kick that around and we meet daily, except for these days. We usually don't meet on these days, but we meet pretty much every day and talk about what's going on and how we are progressing.

    And so yes,

    I'm going to piggyback on her question. I've heard a lot of people talking about, this is people who should know, talking about why don't they just arrest him, and then figure out what's going on, why don't they just take action, do they not understand the process? Is that the problem, or is there a way to bypass this because it seems to me that we're doing what needs to be done and we're doing what's right and people are not seeing that.

  • Well, you know, the one thing I will tell you is that, you know, my friends and neighbors know what I do and they know I'm doing this. And trust me, they are asking me questions all the time.

    I hear you.

  • All I can say is I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to talk about it. I'm just crazy busy, doing what we can, I'm not going to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. It is like I go home, I still bring work home, I don't want to be talking about it and I shouldn't and I don't. But I do tell them, we're working, you know, we're working hard and so it is just going to take a while before this process is completed.

    And, you know, as far as like you saying watching the news and everything, I don't watch the news. I truly don't. I watch the news in the morning so I can see what the weather is, if there is like a traffic accident on the highway on my way in so I need to go a different route.

    I don't want to see what's going on, even though I know it's there and I hear about it, because, number one, I just need to have a little, you know, of my personal life that isn't affected by this, but also I just don't want any of that to affect what I'm doing.

    I can't worry about what's going on out there because I can't control it. And as Sheila knows and will tell you, I'm a control freak, and I think you all know that.

    When I can't control something, I don't want to have, I just have to put that over there. Yeah, I can't listen to too much of this on the news and I can't be concerned, like I said, we were talking yesterday with these rumors, who came up with that, how is that getting out.

    But it is like, you know, it is like being in high school. These rumors get started, I have no idea who started them, and then it is like the game of telephone because next thing you know the rumor morphed into something different and we can't worry about that, we can't worry about that.

    Just know that we're working behind the scenes every day, hard to get this put together for you guys. We also, I will remind you and press upon you if there is anything that you think that you need that you don't have, and I know that you have made the comment, , previously, about wanting to hear from the private medical examiner that the family Michael Brown had hired. We're looking into that.

    You all have asked questions along the way, and trust me, we are not ignoring those questions, we are doing what we can to see. You think there is something we need to know about or hear that we haven't given you, then we're not doing our job and we want to make sure we give you whatever you think you need.

  • Did you have a comment?

    Last night on the news, I know you just said you don't watch the news, it was stated that Officer Wilson had a case pending, a previous case pending. My question is, how much does that affect what we're going through?

  • It shouldn't affect what you have. I was aware of that. Simply because I saw some cameras out yesterday, and I saw an attorney that was commenting about it and I heard about what it was.

    But, you know, up until August 9th, he was an on duty police officer who made traffic stops and arrests and did other things other police officers do and so I would imagine, I've not looked, but I would imagine he has pending cases in our office.

    How those are handled and what comes of those cases shouldn't be your concern. I will tell you that I do not believe, and I will look into this, but I do not believe that he will, I mean, I know he won't be testifying in front of this grand jury any more because you're only hearing this matter.

    I don't know that, I can't say for sure he wouldn't be called to court or called to testify on anything else, but I think it is unlikely, but I don't know. I don't know that necessarily will have any impact on what you all are doing.

    That's the best I can say about that. On for today we have a witness here, his name is He's going to tell you what he knows about this matter and , of course, has made previous statements so we're going to start out by listening to those statements. First statement was done on August 12th, and it was done by the County Police.

    And, remember, as I said a lot of times when the police do a statement, then the FBI has to come along and do their own statement, so after we hear the statement by the County Police, we will hear a statement that was done by the FBI.

    You all remember that last time I played that video that purportedly has comments made by , and then I was trying to play the audio back, and I thought then I might not have the right clip. So I straightened that out, so we may play that also later today if we have a gap in things.

    We don't want you sitting here with nothing to do. We're going to keep you busy as long as you're willing to work.

    you can turn off the recorder. The recording will be paused while we are playing the interview of that was done on August 9th by St. Louis County police detectives and that recording is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17. And, pause that recording.

    (This is the interview of being played at this time.)

  • During the playing of that statement, I passed around to you copies of the map that I marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 30.

    (Deposition Exhibit Number 30 marked for identification.)

  • Which was a drawing that was done during the statement of It is apparent in the statement that there was another drawing done, I don't know if I have that one, I will have to check and see if I have it and if not, I will get that for you as well today.

    Remember, we talked about they were drawing the car and the position of the car or something.

    So the next statement is about an hour long as well, so do you all want to take a five-minute break for bathroom and stand up. All right. We will do that. It is 10:09 a.m. How about 10:15, is that enough time?

    (Recess)

  • It is 10:21 on September 30th, we took a short break. This is Kathi Alizadeh. Sheila Whirley, as well as all 12 grand jurors and the court reporter. And we are now going to play for you a recorded statement that was done of , who was the gentleman who we just played the statement that he made to the County Police.

    This is the statement that he made last week during an FBI interview. I just looked and it appears to an hour and 18 minutes long, and it is cued up and ready to go. If we don't have transcripts as of right now because the statement was only last week.

    So if we get transcripts while you're still seated in this matter, I'll get those to you for your review later.

    All right. And at this time I will ask you, to pause the recording while we play the recorded statement of

    . )

    (This is the interview of

    Today is September 24th, it is 10:10 a.m. This is Special Agent I'm here with DOJ trial attorney and USA

    And would you state your name, sir?

    , okay. I met you before.

    (inaudible) My name is and I am with the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice, and is a prosecutor here, federal prosecutor based here in St. Louis. So we are working on this investigation with the FBI, and because we know you gave an interview with the County Police, we didn't get a chance to meet you and we wanted to meet you, okay?

    Okay. So all your answers need to be out loud because this is being recorded, but if you nod your head or shake your head I'll remind you.

    I understand. And I'm sure you know this, and I have no doubt that we just want you to know that if you talk, some type of false statement or lie or embellish or exaggerate, it's a crime to make false statements to federal agents, we want you to know that.

    I understand. Okay. And we want what you know versus what you assume. So if there is a distinction when you talking about something and you assume it, we want to know what you assumed versus what you, yourself, know, what you heard and saw that today.

    Okay. It is natural that you've heard other names and we may need to ask you about that as well, but we want your observation. It is important not to guess, if you guess, let us know.

    Okay. If I ask a question, and you answer a question that seems confusing, let us know because if you answer, we'll assume that you understand.

    Okay. Okay? Uh-huh. And you know you're at the FBI, and you came through security, but we want to make that you know it is voluntary. So at any point you have had enough, you want to leave, you let us know.

    Okay. We are not going to force you to stay here.

    No problem. Do you have any questions of us?

    No. Just real quick, I want to make sure I have your name spelled right. Can you spell it for me?

    Okay. Okay, thank you.

    you spoke to County Police back on August 12th. Do you remember speaking to them?

    Yes. Okay. So we are, I'm not going to go through your whole account because I know that you are, you already gave that and going to the state grand jury tomorrow, right?

    Yes. I don't want to make you rehash the whole thing.

    Okay. and I are with the federal prosecutor's office, we are prosecutors. So we won't have the opportunity to see you tomorrow, so that is why we listened to your recorded statement, we have read the transcript. We just have some specific questions that don't jump out at the recording because we can't see you.

    Okay. That is what we want to focus on.

    All right. There were certain things that you, urn, you talked about and when you talk about, you said do this or do that. Do this and do that doesn't come across in a recording and it, obviously, won't come across on this recording. But in the beginning when you saw the, the tussle in the car, can you describe for me or show me what you actually saw Michael Brown do and what the police officer were doing?

    Well, actually, as I just stated to them, from my porch I can only see from the passenger side.

    Okay. I don't know if he had grabbed him or what, but you could see them tussling in the car, they were moving around.

    When you say he grabbed him -- I don't know who grabbed who. I know. When you say he? The police officer. Okay. Because he was walking, he must have said something to him and he was approaching the truck. Then we saw the tussling.

    Let me ask you, you said he must have said something to him, you mean --

    I think the officer said something to him because Michael started walking towards the truck.

    Okay. That's what I was going to ask you, what made you say, when you say he, I'm trying to figure out.

    I'll make sure I state it. Okay. I know when you use the expression he must have said something, that's one of those assumptions. When you say that, I want to you to explain that's why you are making that assumption.

    Well, I'm assuming he said it because he was approaching the car. I mean, if the officer tells me to stop and come here, I'm coming there, okay.

    Okay. I'm going to approach you, I want to talk to you. I'm going to find what is going on.

    That's fine, that makes sense. But I could see them tussling, you know, and after that is when the first shot rang out.

    Let me ask you about the tussling specifically. I know you said from what your vantage point was, can you describe from your vantage point what Michael Brown's position was?

    He was outside the car door. Okay. Outside the truck door. He was in one of those big 4x4, not 4x4, SUVs.

    Right. He was on the outside and the officer was still in the truck.

    And how is Michael Brown's body?

    He was like, he was, I could see the top of his head, he had a hat on.

    Okay. I could see the top of his head, and then he dropped down and he disappeared for a minute. Next time I saw his head is when I heard the shot, that's when he popped up.

    Okay. Okay. Were you able to see from your vantage point whether Michael Brown's body was bent over --

    From my vantage point I can say clearly he was not inside that truck. He was partially, maybe his head, was right there at the officer's head.

    Okay. But so for his body being in, no, I couldn't say with 100 percent accuracy that his body was, but I'm quite sure it wasn't.

    Okay. So you don't know for sure?

    No. What about his hands? They were inside. Okay. Uh-huh. So his hands were inside, just correct me if I say this wrong. Michael Brown hands were inside the car?

    I believe so. Okay. You couldn't tell if any part of his like shoulders or anything were in it, is that fair?

    No, no. No, you couldn't tell or no they weren't?

    I can't tell. Okay. Can you tell, you said his head disappeared from view. So do you not know, can you tell whether any part of his head was inside the car?

    No. No, it didn't or you can't tell?

    No, I can't tell. Okay, fair enough. Were you able to see any movement that the police officer was making inside the car?

    I could see him jerking around.

    Okay. I could see his body, see his torso, I could see maybe from like the shoulders up, jostling around like they are moving back and forth like this, just like some kind of tug of war or something was going on.

    Okay. Just for the recording won't pick up what you are. You are kind of leaning back and forth in your chair?

    Right, they are kind of rocking back and forth, like they were in some type of struggle.

    Okay. Okay. That you could clearly see that they were struggling, but I could not tell how much of his body was in the truck.

    Okay. I can't say for certain how much of his body was in the truck.

    That's fair. You are referring to Michael Brown?

    Huh? How much of Michael Brown's body was in

    How much of Michael Brown's body was in the truck?

    The officer was in the truck at the time?

    Officer was in the truck. When you say we, we saw, who are you referring to?

    Had some other family members there on the porch with me.

    Is that your brother and sister-in-law?

    Yes. Was there too? Yes. Okay. And so once the shot rang out and Michael Brown started running, how soon after did the police officer get out of the car?

  • matter of seconds. Okay. Was it instantly or was there a slight pause? There was like a slight pause. I would say within two or three seconds, he was coming out. Okay. As Michael was running away, the other gentleman, Mike went one way, the other gentleman went the opposite direction. The other gentleman was Michael Brown's friend? Michael Brown's friend. Do you know his name? No, I don't, I don't know him. Okay. I've seen Michael Brown in the neighborhood, he passed me. Myself and the other lady, we always sit out. I'm collecting Social Security, she's retired, we just sit out and we talk, watch around. And I seen him walk past because he has a friend who stays in an apartment who is just beyond me. And he would always come by and say, how you doing, sir, how you doing, ma'am, how you all doing, you know, everything else. That's the only contact I had. Other times I may have seen him at the stores in the neighborhood. Okay. We are veering off a little bit. Just so I can ask you, you have a friend that, Michael Brown has a friend that lives in the apartment complex? I have no idea. I thought you just said. Oh, Michael Brown has a friend that stays, not the one that was with him, I don't know him. Him, I know nothing about. I understand that. I just ask you the friend that Michael Brown stays with in the apartment complex, do you know that friend's name? It is a female, no, I don't. Do you know in which building she lives in? Uh -- Here is a map if that helps. I believe it's, it is Okay. I think so. Do you know which level? No. Because she was on third floor. I think she moved down, I'm not sure. Okay. I can't say for certain. Okay. So back to what we were just talking about, the friend that Michael Brown was with that day, we'll just refer to him as the friend, would that be easier? Okay. Okay. You said Michael Brown took off running and there was a pause, police officer chased. What was that friend doing? After he ran, he disappeared, you couldn't see him. You don't know, we thought he had ran around to the side of the building, but someone is saying and other people was saying one of the reason that I heard and read that he was actually behind the other police truck that was there, he ran behind this other car. So not straight? So I didn't see him. I want to just know, just tell us initially you saw him with Michael Brown, correct? Right. I'm talking about the friend. Right. During the tussle that you described, where was the friend? Practically on the sidewalk. Okay. What was the friend doing? Just standing there watching what was going on between officer. From your vantage point where Michael Brown took off running, what did the friend do? He ran the opposite way. Did you see him again? No. So when the police officer took off running after Michael Brown, can you describe, were you able to see his gun? Let me stop you. Sure. He did not take off running after Michael. Okay. Excuse me. You okay? I'm having spasms, okay. This is not showing me anything, okay. If you don't like this map, we'll go with that one. All right. You are looking at, okay, all right. This is, I can't tell which one is which right here. If this doesn't help you, you can -- This is Canfield. Coming from West Florissant. Uh-huh. Coming around. This is the last driveway, okay. Okay. This is one right here. This driveway right here, okay, his friend went toward West Florissant. Michael ran towards the first driveway which is located where the memorial is on the post. The officer got out of the truck, came around to the back of the truck. Okay. Assumed his position like this. (indicating) And you are showing, was the gun out in the front of you? The gun was out like this, he had his hand out, he was in his position and he told, that was after the shot he got out, when he got shot he ran. By the time he got to the edge of the driveway after he crossed the sidewalk, he got on the black part of the driveway he stopped, Michael stopped. He was looking at hisself to see where he was hit, he was doing this, but he had stopped. The officer, at that time, he had come around to the back, Michael had his back turned to him. He told him stop, but he had already stopped. Michael turned around to face him and he had his hands shoulder high, just a little bit above his shoulders, but they were out away from his body. Okay. Let me just stop you for one second. So you are saying when the officer got out of the vehicle, you are saying he ran around his car and stopped and did not chase after Michael? No. And when Michael was running away, the officer was not shooting at him; is that correct? No, he didn't shoot then. Okay. He didn't fire, he already had fired one shot when he came around to the back and assumed the position. He yelled at him to stop, which Michael had already stopped, when Michael turned around, he told him again, stop. Okay. Michael took a step off the sidewalk. As soon as his foot hit the street, the officer let loose, wham, wham, wham. Okay. Right. So that initial shot though occurred inside the vehicle, correct? Correct. Okay. So you're saying that the next time any shots were fired was when Michael Brown was facing the officer; is that correct? Correct. And that was after the officer said stop? Right. And then he didn't shoot until Michael Brown made a movement? Made a movement. And the movement was totally opposite, correct? Right. He took a step to the street. It looked like he was giving up. Because that is what we were saying. He is giving up, he is giving up, you know, we're looking at him, he's giving up. But then as soon as he took a step, he got his foot in the street, he fired three shots. All right. Let me ask you about when you said he had his hand up. You had described previously that he was standing, as you said, his hands up around where the shoulders were, his palms were facing him. No, they were like this. Palms are facing the officer, they were like this. Indicating) Okay. You are the police officer, I turned around and I did like this. Okay. Show your palms are out? Right, right. Okay. Just so I can understand. From my understanding when the police were interviewed by the County Police, you described he kind of stopped and looked down to his right? When he stopped at this time, yes. He kind of, when he stepped off, he was still like this, but he had his hands up, he was still trying to find out where he was shot to me. And then tell me what makes you say that? Because he looked down to his side. Okay. You said his right side? Yeah, this side, yeah, looking on this right side and then he took a step out. And he had his hands up and as soon as he took that step and got to street, maybe about to, he is a big guy, he could have made it about three steps. Let me ask you this, when he's running, he stops in front of the driveway. Based upon your vantage point, you think that he stopped because he was looking at to see where he was shot? Yes. Okay. So when he did that, at that moment he stopped, where were his hands initially? Like this, he had them like this. He took them away from his body to see, he was like looking, he was looking. All right. That's a little bit different -- No, I told it before, I said when he stopped he was looking, he was like this, his hands were not steady like this, but he had them up to look at because he's a big guy, he had to look and see what was up. He was like moving his arms. Moving his arms to see what was going on. You have your palms sort of facing you like he was checking -- Right, he's checking out his own body. Okay. Okay. But when he turned to face the officer he was like this. He had his hands up, palm facing the officer like, okay, you got me. He had already told him to stop. All right. I need to just go back and try and (inaudible) a little bit. When he was checking out his body, were you able to see? I can't tell. Is there anything that stood out to you? Nothing stood out to me. Okay. You know. And so when he turned around and took that step is when he had his palms out? Right. So right after that when the officer started shooting, what did Michael Brown do? After he fired that first round, that first volley. He hit him, he started staggering, he first kind of went back like, pow, from the impact. Okay. And then he started staggering. And he was looking at the officer as he brought his head up, he looked down, oh, God, I've been shot. He looked up at the officer and he was looking at him and he was staggering, he was trying to stay on his feet. And myself and my family is telling him stop, dude, stop, stop, stop. Were you actually saying that out loud? Yes, he couldn't hear us, you know, from where we live. I know he couldn't hear you, but were you actually yelling it in hopes? Hoping that he would hear but he was staggering. We could see that he was staggering and he took about, I don't know, three or four more steps, but as he was taking his steps forward at that time, the officer took a few steps back, he was still in his spot. When Michael took the other steps and he was staggering, his body was like --can I stand up, please? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. He was standing up, he was shot. He was leaning like this, but his head was like this. And he was standing up staggering, he was trying to stay up on his feet like this. Okay. And he was definitely, we were yelling at him stop, stop, stop. My sister-in-law and said, oh, God, he's getting ready to kill him, he's getting ready to kill him. And no sooner than he said that, no sooner those words came out of their mouth, he was going down, it looks like he was going down. And he let off four more shots pow, pow, pow, pow. Okay. When the officer was shooting was when Michael Brown was coming towards him; is that right? Yeah, he was not charging him, he was defenseless, hands up, he was trying to stay on his feet and you could see that his knees was beginning to buckle, he was going down. When he shot him as he was going down, he hit face first, splat. Where were his arms when he fell to the ground? You are showing arms at either side of his head? When his body hit is when I ran up there his arm, one was like, I can't exactly tell on the body, one was like this when he hit down. I guess they moved when he hit the ground, but he was dead on the way down. Can you picture where his arms were on the ground? Kind of like. I don't want you to guess if you don't know. No, I can't say for sure. I'm trying to picture it, but to tell you the truth, I didn't really want to see it, you know, because when I ran up there and I saw who it was, I'm like, oh, my God. I just saw him earlier this morning. I'll get to that in a second, but let me just clarify. So you saw two additional, two volleys of shots -- Right. Correct? Right. Each time the officer was firing, Michael Brown was coming towards him? Yes. Okay. And at no time did Michael Brown say anything, correct? I could not tell or hear if he did say anything. You didn't hear him yell, don't shoot? No, I didn't. Were you able to hear the officer say stop? Oh, yeah, he was very loud. You didn't hear Michael Brown say anything like okay, okay, okay? No, I didn't hear that. Okay. Listen, I'm dealing with two very excited One is , and this is the first time seen anything like that and right here. Talking in your ear? Right. You were able to hear the officer? Oh, yeah. You didn't hear anything from Michael Brown? No. From your vantage point, you didn't see his mouth moving as though he was saying anything? My eyes was really focused on the officer because when he started moving, staggering forward, I wanted to see what he was getting read to do cause everybody was like, he is getting ready to kill him. Okay. So I wanted to see what he was getting ready to do, but Michael was staggering. You could see him clearly staggering, you know. And then when he started like he was going down, he fired again and that's when I said, oh, my God, he just killed him. Okay. So I just want to (inaudible), when this was all happening, your attention shifted to the officer, correct? I could still see Michael, I wanted to see what he was going to do. I had both of them in line of sight. Okay. Is it fair to say that Michael was more, just based on how you are describing it and the visual you just gave me, is it fair to say that Michael was more in your peripheral vision at that point? Both of them, both of them. From my vantage point, I can see both, okay. But to say, now I'm trying to make this as clear as I can. I can see both of them, but as Michael was staggering toward him, you know, trying to keep his balance, as he was moving forward, you could see, I could see the officer stepping back. When he took those steps back and Michael was staggering forward, I thought, oh, my God, that's when they said he is getting ready to shoot him. Sure enough, as soon they said that, he let loose. That's when you all are yelling stop, stop, stop, you wanted Michael to stop? Yeah, we wanted Michael to stop. They anticipated in a split second, , he's getting ready to kill him. Let me ask you this, On August 12th, I want to take you through what you said at that time. You said as he faces the officer, this is Detective asking you this, as he faces the officer, you say that his hands go up to a point where you said about to his shoulders almost. Right. That's when he has his palms sort of facing himself and he's looking over his body? When he got first shot and he got to the driveway, his hands were up facing himself because he was looking like at himself. Right, let me When he turned around. Uh-huh. He gave up, his hands was up to the shoulder, that's when he went up facing the officer. Okay. You went on to say back on August the 12th, Detective says, your arms are like palms up and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say? You say yeah, about close to his shoulder. Do you agree with that? Yeah, yes. With his palms facing towards himself like this? No, not turned, his hands are like this. No, I'm talking about -- They're not, excuse me, what you are saying, the hands are pointed toward him, they were not, I didn't say they were pointed toward him. I said his hands were like this. I described it. I didn't say they were pointed toward him. The only time I said his hands was anywhere near is when he first got shot. When he turned, they were this way. All right. Let me just take you through this, okay, and just see if you agree with this. On August 12th, Detective asked you, your arms are like palms up, and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say? You say, yeah, close to his shoulder, right? Uh-huh. And he asked you at somewhat of angle? You say at 35 to 45 degree angle from the body. About like this, and you have the palms up, right? Oh, yeah. And you say he is standing there, he looks, he looks down looking at his body. That's where you're saying you thought he was looking to see if he was shot? Right. Okay. And then after that, you go on to say that Detective asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. And you say, yeah. And Detective says hands, palms up, like at his rib cage. And you say, uh-huh. Does that sound right? Yeah. On basically when Michael Brown, this is what he asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage, and you say, yeah. Detective says hands, palms up, and you say uh-huh. Is that the way you recall it today? Yeah. And you go on to say, or Detective asked you, and he was looking down at his body at some point. You already told him he was looking down at his body. Detective says, he was looking down at his body at some point, and you say right, right, uh-huh. Okay. All right. Is that the way recall it? Yeah. Okay. Just to be clear too, we talked about when you thought that the officer must have said something to Michael Brown because Michael Brown then approached the vehicle, that's when you saw the tussle. So you actually saw Michael Brown come to the side of the vehicle, he approached the side of the vehicle? Right, he wasn't that far from me. Okay. His friend was still, when he looped around, Mike was still in the street, his friend had backed up. His friend had actually That's when he goes to the sidewalk? Yeah, he steps back, you know. Let me ask you this. had asked you this a little while ago about, and you sort of were very clear about where everyone was. But she had asked you about when the officer went after Michael, where was his gun at that time, or could you see it. And you corrected her and said, well, he just went to the back of the vehicle and assumed his stance. When he came out from around, he must of already pulled it out of his holster as he was coming around. And that's what I'm wondering. Could you see that, could you see where the gun was before he assumed his stance? It was in his hand and he brought it up. Okay. Before he brought it up in a stance, it was in his hand. It was in his hand. You are directing like out by itself? Right. He's pulling it out and as he came around so he could get a line sight on Michael, he whipped his hand up, gun is already in his hand, put it in his palm and aimed. Shortly after that he said stop? He said stop. When he said stop, Michael had already stopped. Uh-huh. When he turned around, he said stop again. When Michael took another step, he said stop. As he hit the street, after he said stop, he fired. That's when he started staggering around. You could tell he got hit the way his body jerked, okay. And as he was coming forward, trying to keep his balance, I guess keep from falling, he couldn't stand. He was trying to get hisself in a position, I believe, so that he could stand up. As he took those steps, the officer took about two, three steps back. As he did that at the same time, he yelled stop again. Michael was then, you could tell he was about ready to fall. At the angle of his body, torso practically straight, knees wobbly, but the torso was almost at a 45 degree angle, his hands are slowly coming down. His hands were coming down? Right, coming down. And he was bent toward the officer? He was bent toward the officer. Let me stop you there real quick. On August 12th, again, I want to take you back to what you said. Detective asked you where you describe exactly this point, Detective asked you, and where are his hands at this point. And you say, after he hit him with the three shots, they were down. Right. Detective says, okay, where at? You say, down beside his body like this. And then he says, you were basically putting your hands down at your side. And you said, yeah, they, like they were down. Right. Is that the way you recall it today? Right. That was after three shots? After the three shots. Because he was going down? Yeah, he was hit. As he was coming forward, he was trying to maintain his balance. And I know this, I've been shot, all right. I've been shot in the leg, so I know how it is to try to get your balance. And as I try to make this perfectly clear, his torso was straight, knees wobbly, but his upper torso was bent and he was still, kept his focus on the officer. So to be clear, from your vantage point, and I don't want you, I know you were shot so you know how it feels to be wobbly. From what you could actually see, Michael Brown was focused on the officer, correct? Uh-huh. He was bent forward, correct? Uh-huh. Is that yes? Yes. Okay. His arms were at his side at this point? Right, right. He was moving toward the officer? Right, very slowly and wobbly. And the officer had said stop? Right. At that point, Michael Brown hadn't stopped; is that correct? It looks like he was falling. He was staggering, he was staggering, trying to stay up. Okay. He was shot, he was hurt. He was trying to keep up on his feet. He wasn't going toward the officer to try to get to him. He was trying to stand up. He was trying to maintain hisself, but you could see his body was giving out. And the angle his body was, when he told him to stop that last time when he's looking at him and that's when the comments were made, he's getting ready to kill him. And no sooner than they said that he was going like this, his body was coming like this because he wasn't even looking and he fired. That's the only way he could have hit him in the head, the only way. He was already on his way down. The man was unarmed, you had already put three to four shots in his body. Granted, he is a big boy, but he was hurt, he was hurt. And this is the point right before that, that final shot you refer to -- Right. --trying to tell him to stop? Right, right. When he fired off that last volley, he hit down face first. I've got a very hysterical who has never seen anything like that in her life. My sister-in-law is going berserk. My brother and I look, we didn't even see the other officer, he had just moved away. Our focus, our focus is So when I got he got his wife and got them, took in the apartment, got them calmed down, I came back out, I left and I ran up the street because I wanted to see what happened, not what happened, but to see him, you know, just some visible reason I wanted to see the body. As I got there and close and I saw his face, I knew who it was. You talked before too about at that point people started coming out from everywhere? From everywhere. Can you tell us about that, what was going on at that time? They all, they running out, from my vantage point I can see every apartment on the opposite side of the street. The gentlemen who were working, my apartment, my bedroom, I can see them and the apartment that they are working on and I'm watching them. They are making a lot of noise, but anyway, from the front of my house, I couldn't see them. I knew they were there, I knew they were there. People on my side and my street, no one was there. The immediate apartment building where he was shot, I couldn't tell if anybody was up there. The apartments that are already in the back of the driveway where he was stopped at, where the memorial is, I didn't see anyone on this side of the street in my sight. The other part I can't see that. Just tell me about when you went out there, you know, you mention people coming out from sort of everywhere from the back of the complex. From the back of the complex, from everywhere. And you talk about August 12th, the one reason you came forward is in your own conscious you wanted to make sure the family got the truth about what really happened, that is why you decided to come forward? Yes. You were concerned about what other people were saying. What were you concerned about? You have to understand out there, they were looking for anything. Majority of them that came running out from the other sides and the back, those three or four gentlemen that run up, oh, he had his hands up like this. Like straight up in the air? Straight up in the air. With his palm facing the officer? Yeah, we were standing, no. The gentleman that was besides us, the workers, no. We knew that. And then you could see, you have to understand the mentality of some of these young guys. They have nothing to do. If they can latch onto something, they embellish it because they want something to do. This is something that give them, okay, now we have something to do to get into. I've lived out there off and on for almost years. Majority of them do not work. All they do is sit around and get high all day. That's it, and just talk stupid. And they had that there, when we was standing there, someone at the top of the hill, I had got back to my porch, someone at the top of the hill, my brother and my sister and I had back on the porch when I came back, fired off some shots. The officers heard it and they started running, okay. Everyone that was on the other side of the street started pointing, where did it come from, everybody started pointing. We had two people, never seen these people before in my life in the whole time I've been out there, came up, you all better not say nothing. You all snitching and all of this and that upset They said this to you They were talking. I was looking at the officers. was down there and I happen to turn when said like what, what. You know, I was like, wait a minute, I said turn around, everybody was still doing this. But she and this other girl had made a point to say something to To ? Right. About not snitching? About not snitching. Two females? Yeah, I'm like what? And I told the girls, I tell you what, you all used a very derogatory term, turn around. Everyone is pointing that way, you know. For three days I had to deal with because that shook to the core, just not use to anything like that. Can you explain this, what prompted these girls to come over to ? Because everybody was pointing, you know, when they heard the shot. I was pointing. Where did it come from. I said right up there. Because you were telling the police where the shot came from? Right, but the thing was, the whole crowd was pointing up to the top of the hill. And I'm like, wait a minute, they single out and wasn't even pointing. I understand, okay. Okay. So the thing is, I live there, when it comes to saying certain things, I've got to protect I don't care. I'm sorry that happened to Michael Brown, I'm sorry for his family's loss, but I have a that's number one. I don't care about nothing. I really wasn't going to say anything. I really wasn't because I got to protect and scared, was scared for three weeks, she was scared. Let me ask you this, before whenever we was talking about people coming out and hands up in the air, you said there were workers nearby who were saying hands in the air? No, no, no, they didn't say that. What did they say? They said the same thing I said and my brother did. His arms were shoulder length, just above his shoulders. Can you describe these workers? They working, they are plumbing, some plumbers. What they look like physically? Younger, white hair gentleman and -- Both white? Uh-huh. But they were actually there with you correcting all of these other younger people?

  • No, everyone did that. It wasn't until a couple days later, because I saw him when I was out there watching everything going on. I saw him talking to a couple officers, but he was talking to a plain clothes detective and a Ferguson officer, I think, I'm not sure. I couldn't see, but I know he had a blue shirt on, Ferguson wears blue shirts. I assume it was a Ferguson officer and the other gentleman was in a suit.

    And he was talking to him. The younger guy, he was like, oh, he was going nuts, you know, but the older gentleman was talking about what he saw.

  • But they were actually there with you correcting all of these other younger people?

    No, everyone did that. It

  • Uh-huh. But they were actually there

  • Both white? Uh-huh.

  • Younger, white hair gentleman and --

    Both white?

  • What they look like physically?

    Younger, white hair gentleman

  • They working, they are plumbing, some plumbers.

    What they look like

  • Can you describe these workers? They working, they are

  • They said the same thing I said and my brother did. His arms were shoulder length, just above his shoulders.

    Can you describe these workers?

  • What did they say? They said the same thing I

  • No, no, no, they didn't say that.

    What did they say?

  • Let me ask you this, before whenever we was talking about people coming out and hands up in the air, you said there were workers nearby who were saying hands in the air?

    No, no, no, they didn't say

  • Okay. So the thing is, I live there, when it comes to saying certain things, I've got to protect I don't care. I'm sorry that happened to Michael Brown, I'm sorry for his family's loss, but I have a that's number one. I don't care about nothing. I really wasn't going to say anything. I really wasn't because I got to protect and scared, was scared for three weeks, she was scared.

    Let me ask you this, before

  • I understand, okay. Okay. So the thing is, I

  • Right, but the thing was, the whole crowd was pointing up to the top of the hill. And I'm like, wait a minute, they single out and wasn't even pointing.

    I understand, okay.

  • Because you were telling the police where the shot came from?

    Right, but the thing was, the

  • Because everybody was pointing, you know, when they heard the shot. I was pointing. Where did it come from. I said right up there.

    Because you were telling the

  • Can you explain this, what prompted these girls to come over to ?

    Because everybody was

  • Yeah, I'm like what? And I told the girls, I tell you what, you all used a very derogatory term, turn around. Everyone is pointing that way, you know. For three days I had to deal with because that shook to the core, just not use to anything like that.

    Can you explain this, what

  • Two females? Yeah, I'm like what? And I

  • About not snitching. Two females?

  • About not snitching? About not snitching.

  • Right. About not snitching?

  • They were talking. I was looking at the officers. was down there and I happen to turn when said like what, what. You know, I was like, wait a minute, I said turn around, everybody was still doing this. But she and this other girl had made a point to say something to

    To ?

  • They said this to you They were talking. I was

  • Yeah, we were standing, no. The gentleman that was besides us, the workers, no. We knew that. And then you could see, you have to understand the mentality of some of these young guys. They have nothing to do. If they can latch onto something, they embellish it because they want something to do. This is something that give them, okay, now we have something to do to get into.

    I've lived out there off and on for almost years. Majority of them do not work. All they do is sit around and get high all day. That's it, and just talk stupid. And they had that there, when we was standing there, someone at the top of the hill, I had got back to my porch, someone at the top of the hill, my brother and my sister and I had back on the porch when I came back, fired off some shots. The officers heard it and they started running, okay.

    Everyone that was on the other side of the street started pointing, where did it come from, everybody started pointing. We had two people, never seen these people before in my life in the whole time I've been out there, came up, you all better not say nothing. You all snitching and all of this and that upset

    They said this to you

  • With his palm facing the officer?

    Yeah, we were standing, no.

  • Straight up in the air. With his palm facing the

  • Like straight up in the air? Straight up in the air.

  • You have to understand out there, they were looking for anything. Majority of them that came running out from the other sides and the back, those three or four gentlemen that run up, oh, he had his hands up like this.

    Like straight up in the air?

  • You were concerned about what other people were saying. What were you concerned about?

    You have to understand out

  • Yes. You were concerned about

  • And you talk about August 12th, the one reason you came forward is in your own conscious you wanted to make sure the family got the truth about what really happened, that is why you decided to come forward?

    Yes.

  • From the back of the complex, from everywhere.

    And you talk about

  • Just tell me about when you went out there, you know, you mention people coming out from sort of everywhere from the back of the complex.

    From the back of the complex,

  • They all, they running out, from my vantage point I can see every apartment on the opposite side of the street. The gentlemen who were working, my apartment, my bedroom, I can see them and the apartment that they are working on and I'm watching them. They are making a lot of noise, but anyway, from the front of my house, I couldn't see them. I knew they were there, I knew they were there. People on my side and my street, no one was there.

    The immediate apartment building where he was shot, I couldn't tell if anybody was up there. The apartments that are already in the back of the driveway where he was stopped at, where the memorial is, I didn't see anyone on this side of the street in my sight.

    The other part I can't see that.

    Just tell me about when you

  • Can you tell us about that, what was going on at that time?

    They all, they running out,

  • From everywhere. Can you tell us about that,

  • You talked before too about at that point people started coming out from everywhere?

    From everywhere.

  • Right, right. When he fired off that last volley, he hit down face first. I've got a very hysterical who has never seen anything like that in her life. My sister-in-law is going berserk. My brother and I look, we didn't even see the other officer, he had just moved away.

    Our focus, our focus is So when I got he got his wife and got them, took in the apartment, got them calmed down, I came back out, I left and I ran up the street because I wanted to see what happened, not what happened, but to see him, you know, just some visible reason I wanted to see the body. As I got there and close and I saw his face, I knew who it was.

    You talked before too about

  • --trying to tell him to stop?

    Right, right. When he fired

  • Right. --trying to tell him to

  • And this is the point right before that, that final shot you refer to --

    Right.

  • It looks like he was falling. He was staggering, he was staggering, trying to stay up. Okay.

    He was shot, he was hurt. He was trying to keep up on his feet. He wasn't going toward the officer to try to get to him. He was trying to stand up. He was trying to maintain hisself, but you could see his body was giving out. And the angle his body was, when he told him to stop that last time when he's looking at him and that's when the comments were made, he's getting ready to kill him.

    And no sooner than they said that he was going like this, his body was coming like this because he wasn't even looking and he fired. That's the only way he could have hit him in the head, the only way. He was already on his way down. The man was unarmed, you had already put three to four shots in his body.

    Granted, he is a big boy, but he was hurt, he was hurt.

    And this is the point right

  • At that point, Michael Brown hadn't stopped; is that correct?

    It looks like he was falling.

  • Right. At that point, Michael Brown

  • And the officer had said stop? Right.

  • Right, very slowly and wobbly.

    And the officer had said stop?

  • He was moving toward the officer?

    Right, very slowly and

  • Right, right. He was moving toward the

  • Okay. His arms were at his side at this point?

    Right, right.

  • Yes. Okay. His arms were at his

  • Is that yes? Yes.

  • Uh-huh. Is that yes?

  • He was bent forward, correct? Uh-huh.

  • Uh-huh. He was bent forward, correct?

  • So to be clear, from your vantage point, and I don't want you, I know you were shot so you know how it feels to be wobbly. From what you could actually see, Michael Brown was focused on the officer, correct?

    Uh-huh.

  • Yeah, he was hit. As he was coming forward, he was trying to maintain his balance.

    And I know this, I've been shot, all right. I've been shot in the leg, so I know how it is to try to get your balance.

    And as I try to make this perfectly clear, his torso was straight, knees wobbly, but his upper torso was bent and he was still, kept his focus on the officer.

    So to be clear, from your

  • Because he was going down? Yeah, he was hit. As he was

  • After the three shots. Because he was going down?

  • That was after three shots? After the three shots.

  • Right. That was after three shots?

  • Is that the way you recall it today?

    Right.

  • Right. Is that the way you recall

  • Detective says, okay, where at?

    You say, down beside his body like this. And then he says, you were basically putting your hands down at your side.

    And you said, yeah, they, like they were down.

    Right.

  • Right. Detective says, okay,

  • Let me stop you there real quick. On August 12th, again, I want to take you back to what you said. Detective asked you where you describe exactly this point, Detective

    asked you, and where are his hands at this point.

    And you say, after he hit him with the three shots, they were down.

    Right.

  • He was bent toward the officer.

    Let me stop you there real

  • And he was bent toward the officer?

    He was bent toward the

  • Right, coming down. And he was bent toward the

  • His hands were coming down? Right, coming down.

  • When he turned around, he said stop again. When Michael took another step, he said stop. As he hit the street, after he said stop, he fired. That's when he started staggering around. You could tell he got hit the way his body jerked, okay. And as he was coming forward, trying to keep his balance, I guess keep from falling, he couldn't stand. He was trying to get hisself in a position, I believe, so that he could stand up.

    As he took those steps, the officer took about two, three steps back. As he did that at the same time, he yelled stop again. Michael was then, you could tell he was about ready to fall. At the angle of his body, torso practically straight, knees wobbly, but the torso was almost at a 45 degree angle, his hands are slowly coming down.

    His hands were coming down?

  • Uh-huh. When he turned around, he

  • He said stop. When he said stop, Michael had already stopped.

    Uh-huh.

  • Shortly after that he said stop?

    He said stop. When he said

  • Right. He's pulling it out and as he came around so he could get a line sight on Michael, he whipped his hand up, gun is already in his hand, put it in his palm and aimed.

    Shortly after that he said

  • You are directing like out by itself?

    Right. He's pulling it out

  • It was in his hand. You are directing like out

  • Okay. Before he brought it up in a stance, it was in his hand.

    It was in his hand.

  • It was in his hand and he brought it up.

    Okay. Before he brought it

  • And that's what I'm wondering. Could you see that, could you see where the gun was before he assumed his stance?

    It was in his hand and he

  • When he came out from around, he must of already pulled it out of his holster as he was coming around.

    And that's what I'm

  • Let me ask you this. had asked you this a little while ago about, and you sort of were very clear about where everyone was. But she had asked you about when the officer went after Michael, where was his gun at that time, or could you see it. And you corrected her and said, well, he just went to the back of the vehicle and assumed his stance.

    When he came out from around,

  • Yeah, he steps back, you know.

    Let me ask you this.

  • That's when he goes to the sidewalk?

    Yeah, he steps back, you

  • His friend was still, when he looped around, Mike was still in the street, his friend had backed up. His friend had actually

    That's when he goes to the

  • Okay. His friend was still, when he

  • Right, he wasn't that far from me.

    Okay.

  • Okay. Just to be clear too, we talked about when you thought that the officer must have said something to Michael Brown because Michael Brown then approached the vehicle, that's when you saw the tussle.

    So you actually saw Michael Brown come to the side of the vehicle, he approached the side of the vehicle?

    Right, he wasn't that far

  • Yeah. Okay. Just to be clear too,

  • And you go on to say, or Detective asked you, and he was looking down at his body at some point. You already told him he was looking down at his body. Detective says, he was looking down at his body at some point, and you say right, right, uh-huh. Okay. All right.

    Is that the way recall it?

    Yeah.

  • Yeah. And you go on to say, or

  • On basically when Michael Brown, this is what he asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage, and you say, yeah.

    Detective says hands, palms up, and you say uh-huh. Is that the way you recall it today?

    Yeah.

  • Yeah. On basically when Michael

  • Okay. And then after that, you go on to say that Detective asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. And you say, yeah.

    And Detective says hands, palms up, like at his rib cage.

    And you say, uh-huh. Does that sound right?

    Yeah.

  • Right. Okay. And then after that,

  • And you say he is standing there, he looks, he looks down looking at his body. That's where you're saying you thought he was looking to see if he was shot?

    Right.

  • Oh, yeah. And you say he is standing

  • And he asked you at somewhat of angle? You say at 35 to 45 degree angle from the body. About like this, and you have the palms up, right?

    Oh, yeah.

  • Uh-huh. And he asked you at somewhat

  • All right. Let me just take you through this, okay, and just see if you agree with this. On August 12th, Detective asked you, your arms are like palms up, and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say?

    You say, yeah, close to his shoulder, right?

    Uh-huh.

  • They're not, excuse me, what you are saying, the hands are pointed toward him, they were not, I didn't say they were pointed toward him. I said his hands were like this. I described it. I didn't say they were pointed toward him. The only time I said his hands was anywhere near is when he first got shot.

    When he turned, they were this way.

    All right. Let me just take

  • No, I'm talking about -- They're not, excuse me, what

  • No, not turned, his hands are like this.

    No, I'm talking about --

  • With his palms facing towards himself like this?

    No, not turned, his hands are

  • Yeah, yes. With his palms facing

  • Okay. You went on to say back on August the 12th, Detective says, your arms are like palms up and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say?

    You say yeah, about close to his shoulder. Do you agree with that?

    Yeah, yes.

  • He gave up, his hands was up to the shoulder, that's when he went up facing the officer.

    Okay. You went on to say

  • Uh-huh. He gave up, his hands was up

  • When he turned around. Uh-huh.

  • Right, let me When he turned around.

  • When he got first shot and he got to the driveway, his hands were up facing himself because he was looking like at himself.

    Right, let me

  • That's when he has his palms sort of facing himself and he's looking over his body?

    When he got first shot and he

  • Right. That's when he has his palms

  • Let me ask you this, On August 12th, I want to take you through what you said at that time.

    You said as he faces the officer, this is Detective asking you this, as he faces the officer, you say that his hands go up to a point where you said about to his shoulders almost.

    Right.

  • Yeah, we wanted Michael to stop. They anticipated in a split second,

    , he's getting ready to kill him.

    Let me ask you this,

  • That's when you all are yelling stop, stop, stop, you wanted Michael to stop?

    Yeah, we wanted Michael to

  • Both of them, both of them. From my vantage point, I can see both, okay. But to say, now I'm trying to make this as clear as I can. I can see both of them, but as Michael was staggering toward him, you know, trying to keep his balance, as he was moving forward, you could see, I could see the officer stepping back.

    When he took those steps back and Michael was staggering forward, I thought, oh, my God, that's when they said he is getting ready to shoot him. Sure enough, as soon they said that, he let loose.

    That's when you all are

  • Okay. Is it fair to say that Michael was more, just based on how you are describing it and the visual you just gave me, is it fair to say that Michael was more in your peripheral vision at that point?

    Both of them, both of them.

  • I could still see Michael, I wanted to see what he was going to do. I had both of them in line of sight.

    Okay. Is it fair to say that

  • Okay. So I just want to

    (inaudible), when this was all happening, your attention shifted to the officer, correct?

    I could still see Michael, I

  • So I wanted to see what he was getting ready to do, but Michael was staggering. You could see him clearly staggering, you know. And then when he started like he was going down, he fired again and that's when I said, oh, my God, he just killed him.

    Okay. So I just want to

  • Okay. So I wanted to see what he

  • My eyes was really focused on the officer because when he started moving, staggering forward, I wanted to see what he was getting read to do cause everybody was like, he is getting ready to kill him.

    Okay.

  • From your vantage point, you didn't see his mouth moving as though he was saying anything?

    My eyes was really focused on

  • No. From your vantage point, you

  • You didn't hear anything from Michael Brown?

    No.

  • Oh, yeah. You didn't hear anything from

  • You were able to hear the officer?

    Oh, yeah.

  • Right. You were able to hear the

  • Talking in your ear? Right.

  • Listen, I'm dealing with two very excited One is , and this is the first time seen anything like that and right here.

    Talking in your ear?

  • Okay. Listen, I'm dealing with two

  • No, I didn't hear that. Okay.

  • You didn't hear Michael Brown say anything like okay, okay, okay?

    No, I didn't hear that.

  • Oh, yeah, he was very loud. You didn't hear Michael Brown

  • Were you able to hear the officer say stop?

    Oh, yeah, he was very loud.

  • No, I didn't. Were you able to hear the

  • You didn't hear him yell, don't shoot?

    No, I didn't.

  • I could not tell or hear if he did say anything.

    You didn't hear him yell, don't

  • Okay. And at no time did Michael Brown say anything, correct?

    I could not tell or hear if

  • Yes. Okay. And at no time did

  • Each time the officer was firing, Michael Brown was coming towards him?

    Yes.

  • Right. Each time the officer was

  • Correct? Right.

  • Right. Correct?

  • I'll get to that in a second, but let me just clarify. So you saw two additional, two volleys of shots --

    Right.

  • No, I can't say for sure. I'm trying to picture it, but to tell you the truth, I didn't really want to see it, you know, because when I ran up there and I saw who it was, I'm like, oh, my God. I just saw him earlier this morning.

    I'll get to that in a second,

  • I don't want you to guess if you don't know.

    No, I can't say for sure.

  • Kind of like. I don't want you to guess if

  • Can you picture where his arms were on the ground?

    Kind of like.

  • When his body hit is when I ran up there his arm, one was like, I can't exactly tell on the body, one was like this when he hit down. I guess they moved when he hit the ground, but he was dead on the way down.

    Can you picture where his arms

  • Where were his arms when he fell to the ground? You are showing arms at either side of his head?

    When his body hit is when I

  • Yeah, he was not charging him, he was defenseless, hands up, he was trying to stay on his feet and you could see that his knees was beginning to buckle, he was going down. When he shot him as he was going down, he hit face first, splat.

    Where were his arms when he

  • Okay. When the officer was shooting was when Michael Brown was coming towards him; is that right?

    Yeah, he was not charging

  • And he was definitely, we were yelling at him stop, stop, stop. My sister-in-law and said, oh, God, he's getting ready to kill him, he's getting ready to kill him. And no sooner than he said that, no sooner those words came out of their mouth, he was going down, it looks like he was going down. And he let off four more shots pow, pow, pow, pow.

    Okay. When the officer was

  • Okay. And he was definitely, we

  • Okay. He was standing up, he was shot. He was leaning like this, but his head was like this. And he was standing up staggering, he was trying to stay up on his feet like this.

    Okay.

  • Yeah, absolutely. Okay. He was standing up, he

  • Hoping that he would hear but he was staggering. We could see that he was staggering and he took about, I don't know, three or four more steps, but as he was taking his steps forward at that time, the officer took a few steps back, he was still in his spot. When Michael took the other steps and he was staggering, his body was like --can I stand up, please?

    Yeah, absolutely.

  • I know he couldn't hear you, but were you actually yelling it in hopes?

    Hoping that he would hear but

  • Yes, he couldn't hear us, you know, from where we live.

    I know he couldn't hear you,

  • Were you actually saying that out loud?

    Yes, he couldn't hear us, you

  • And then he started staggering. And he was looking at the officer as he brought his head up, he looked down, oh, God, I've been shot. He looked up at the officer and he was looking at him and he was staggering, he was trying to stay on his feet. And myself and my family is telling him stop, dude, stop, stop, stop.

    Were you actually saying that

  • Okay. And then he started

  • After he fired that first round, that first volley. He hit him, he started staggering, he first kind of went back like, pow, from the impact.

    Okay.

  • So right after that when the officer started shooting, what did Michael Brown do?

    After he fired that first

  • Right. So right after that when the

  • And so when he turned around and took that step is when he had his palms out?

    Right.

  • You know. And so when he turned around

  • Okay. You know.

  • Nothing stood out to me. Okay.

  • Is there anything that stood out to you?

    Nothing stood out to me.

  • I can't tell. Is there anything that stood

  • All right. I need to just go back and try and (inaudible) a little bit. When he was checking out his body, were you able to see?

    I can't tell.

  • Okay. But when he turned to face the officer he was like this. He had his hands up, palm facing the officer like, okay, you got me. He had already told him to stop.

    All right. I need to just go

  • Okay. Okay. But when he turned to

  • Right, he's checking out his own body.

    Okay.

  • You have your palms sort of facing you like he was checking --

    Right, he's checking out his

  • Moving his arms to see what was going on.

    You have your palms sort of

  • He was like moving his arms. Moving his arms to see what

  • No, I told it before, I said when he stopped he was looking, he was like this, his hands were not steady like this, but he had them up to look at because he's a big guy, he had to look and see what was up.

    He was like moving his arms.

  • All right. That's a little bit different --

    No, I told it before, I said

  • Like this, he had them like this. He took them away from his body to see, he was like looking, he was looking.

    All right. That's a little bit

  • Okay. So when he did that, at that moment he stopped, where were his hands initially?

    Like this, he had them like

  • Yes. Okay. So when he did that, at

  • Let me ask you this, when he's running, he stops in front of the driveway. Based upon your vantage point, you think that he stopped because he was looking at to see where he was shot?

    Yes.

  • Yeah, this side, yeah, looking on this right side and then he took a step out. And he had his hands up and as soon as he took that step and got to street, maybe about to, he is a big guy, he could have made it about three steps.

    Let me ask you this, when he's

  • Okay. You said his right side? Yeah, this side, yeah,

  • Because he looked down to his side.

    Okay. You said his right side?

  • And then tell me what makes you say that?

    Because he looked down to his

  • When he stopped at this time, yes. He kind of, when he stepped off, he was still like this, but he had his hands up, he was still trying to find out where he was shot to me.

    And then tell me what makes you

  • Okay. Just so I can understand. From my understanding when the police were interviewed by the County Police, you described he kind of stopped and looked down to his right?

    When he stopped at this time,

  • Right, right. Okay. Just so I can

  • Okay. Show your palms are out? Right, right.

  • You are the police officer, I turned around and I did like this.

    Okay. Show your palms are out?

  • Okay. You are the police officer, I

  • No, they were like this. Palms are facing the officer, they were like this. Indicating)

    Okay.

  • All right. Let me ask you about when you said he had his hand up. You had described previously that he was standing, as you said, his hands up around where the shoulders were, his palms were facing him.

    No, they were like this.

  • Right. He took a step to the street. It looked like he was giving up. Because that is what we were saying. He is giving up, he is giving up, you know, we're looking at him, he's giving up. But then as soon as he took a step, he got his foot in the street, he fired three shots.

    All right. Let me ask you

  • And the movement was totally opposite, correct?

    Right. He took a step to the

  • Made a movement. And the movement was totally

  • And then he didn't shoot until Michael Brown made a movement?

    Made a movement.

  • Right. And then he didn't shoot until

  • And that was after the officer said stop?

    Right.

  • Correct. And that was after the officer

  • Okay. So you're saying that the next time any shots were fired was when Michael Brown was facing the officer; is that correct?

    Correct.

  • Correct. Okay. So you're saying that

  • So that initial shot though occurred inside the vehicle, correct?

    Correct.

  • Right. So that initial shot though

  • Okay. Right.

  • Michael took a step off the sidewalk. As soon as his foot hit the street, the officer let loose, wham, wham, wham.

    Okay.

  • Okay. Michael took a step off the

  • He didn't fire, he already had fired one shot when he came around to the back and assumed the position. He yelled at him to stop, which Michael had already stopped, when Michael turned around, he told him again, stop.

    Okay.

  • Okay. He didn't fire, he already

  • No, he didn't shoot then. Okay.

  • And when Michael was running away, the officer was not shooting at him; is that correct?

    No, he didn't shoot then.

  • No. And when Michael was running

  • Okay. Let me just stop you for one second. So you are saying when the officer got out of the vehicle, you are saying he ran around his car and stopped and did not chase after Michael?

    No.

  • The gun was out like this, he had his hand out, he was in his position and he told, that was after the shot he got out, when he got shot he ran. By the time he got to the edge of the driveway after he crossed the sidewalk, he got on the black part of the driveway he stopped, Michael stopped. He was looking at hisself to see where he was hit, he was doing this, but he had stopped.

    The officer, at that time, he had come around to the back, Michael had his back turned to him. He told him stop, but he had already stopped.

    Michael turned around to face him and he had his hands shoulder high, just a little bit above his shoulders, but they were out away from his body.

    Okay. Let me just stop you for

  • And you are showing, was the gun out in the front of you?

    The gun was out like this, he

  • Assumed his position like this. (indicating)

    And you are showing, was the

  • Okay. Assumed his position like

  • This is one right here. This driveway right here, okay, his friend went toward West Florissant. Michael ran towards the first driveway which is located where the memorial is on the post.

    The officer got out of the truck, came around to the back of the truck.

    Okay.

  • Okay. This is one right here. This

  • Coming around. This is the last driveway, okay.

    Okay.

  • Uh-huh. Coming around. This is the

  • Coming from West Florissant. Uh-huh.

  • This is Canfield. Coming from West Florissant.

  • If this doesn't help you, you can --

    This is Canfield.

  • All right. You are looking at, okay, all right. This is, I can't tell which one is which right here.

    If this doesn't help you, you

  • If you don't like this map, we'll go with that one.

    All right. You are looking

  • I'm having spasms, okay. This is not showing me anything, okay.

    If you don't like this map,

  • You okay? I'm having spasms, okay.

  • Excuse me. You okay?

  • Okay. Excuse me.

  • He did not take off running after Michael.

    Okay.

  • Sure. He did not take off running

  • Let me stop you. Sure.

  • So when the police officer took off running after Michael Brown, can you describe, were you able to see his gun?

    Let me stop you.

  • No. So when the police officer took

  • Did you see him again? No.

  • He ran the opposite way. Did you see him again?

  • From your vantage point where Michael Brown took off running, what did the friend do?

    He ran the opposite way.

  • Just standing there watching what was going on between officer.

    From your vantage point where

  • Okay. What was the friend doing?

    Just standing there watching

  • Practically on the sidewalk. Okay. What was the friend

  • During the tussle that you described, where was the friend?

    Practically on the sidewalk.

  • Right. During the tussle that you

  • I'm talking about the friend. Right.

  • Right. I'm talking about the friend.

  • I want to just know, just tell us initially you saw him with Michael Brown, correct?

    Right.

  • So I didn't see him. I want to just know, just tell

  • So not straight? So I didn't see him.

  • After he ran, he disappeared, you couldn't see him. You don't know, we thought he had ran around to the side of the building, but someone is saying and other people was saying one of the reason that I heard and read that he was actually behind the other police truck that was there, he ran behind this other car.

    So not straight?

  • Okay. You said Michael Brown took off running and there was a pause, police officer chased. What was that friend doing?

    After he ran, he disappeared,

  • Okay. Okay. You said Michael Brown

  • Okay. So back to what we were just talking about, the friend that Michael Brown was with that day, we'll just refer to him as the friend, would that be easier?

    Okay.

  • I can't say for certain. Okay. So back to what we were

  • Okay. I can't say for certain.

  • No. Because she was on third floor. I think she moved down, I'm not sure.

    Okay.

  • Do you know which level? No. Because she was on third

  • I think so. Do you know which level?

  • Okay. I think so.

  • I believe it's, it is Okay.

  • Here is a map if that helps. I believe it's, it is

  • Uh -- Here is a map if that helps.

  • Do you know in which building she lives in?

    Uh --

  • It is a female, no, I don't. Do you know in which building

  • I understand that. I just ask you the friend that Michael Brown stays with in the apartment complex, do you know that friend's name?

    It is a female, no, I don't.

  • Oh, Michael Brown has a friend that stays, not the one that was with him, I don't know him. Him, I know nothing about.

    I understand that. I just ask

  • I thought you just said. Oh, Michael Brown has a

  • I have no idea. I thought you just said.

  • Okay. We are veering off a little bit. Just so I can ask you, you have a friend that, Michael Brown has a friend that lives in the apartment complex?

    I have no idea.

  • I've seen Michael Brown in the neighborhood, he passed me. Myself and the other lady, we always sit out. I'm collecting Social Security, she's retired, we just sit out and we talk, watch around. And I seen him walk past because he has a friend who stays in an apartment who is just beyond me.

    And he would always come by and say, how you doing, sir, how you doing, ma'am, how you all doing, you know, everything else. That's the only contact I had. Other times I may have seen him at the stores in the neighborhood.

    Okay. We are veering off a

  • Okay. I've seen Michael Brown in

  • No, I don't, I don't know him.

    Okay.

  • Do you know his name? No, I don't, I don't know

  • Michael Brown's friend. Do you know his name?

  • The other gentleman was Michael Brown's friend?

    Michael Brown's friend.

  • As Michael was running away, the other gentleman, Mike went one way, the other gentleman went the opposite direction.

    The other gentleman was Michael

  • Okay. As Michael was running away,

  • There was like a slight pause. I would say within two or three seconds, he was coming out.

    Okay.

  • Okay. Was it instantly or was there a slight pause?

    There was like a slight

  • matter of seconds. Okay. Was it instantly or was

  • few days later because he was coming around and doing something on every building. And he gets out, eventually said, yeah, everybody out there talking about the poor man had his hands up in the air. He said, I didn't see that, he said, did you see that? I said, no, I didn't see that. So the young guy say, he was with him, I didn't see it either. These are the two white workers that you are talking about? Yeah, right. They were back there a few days later and talked to you personally? They didn't talk to me, just in the course of conversation they were working on our building. You were there and had that conversation? Right, right. I'm standing there, he come down there and working on the pipe. I was barbecuing, that's how the conversation started. And we got, he said, man, I'm so shook up and everything else about this and that. He said, well, it got crazy all of these guys over there, everybody running around, they're talking about the man had his hands all the way up in the air, he didn't. Did you see that? I know you saw it, didn't you? I said, yeah. He said, did you see what I see? I said, yes. He didn't have them all the way up. And we both, at the same time, same position, okay. Young guy quit after that. He said, I'm not coming out here. You said there was a lady with you during this conversation? Older lady, she didn't see the incident though. Who is she? She's the downstairs lady. Was there any other conversation within that day about this? No, uh-huh. All he had to do was connect the pipe. They had missed a connection on the pipe and then we got to talking about barbecuing, talking about, started talking about other things. He lived in Jefferson County. He said how bad it is down there, you know. Now I have to come here, stuff happens everywhere. Everywhere. You know, he said, this was crazy, you know. Did he have anything else to say about it, anything crazy about it? No, that's just the way the people reacted. Let's go back to that. You first started talking about the two white workers that were there when you first came down. Uh-huh. People were coming out and saying all kind of things. And you talked about people talking about him having his hands straight up in the air you kind of said, no, that's not what I saw. Uh-huh. Maybe I misunderstood. Did you say also that the workers were down there at the same time saying, no, we didn't see that either at that time? No, he didn't say that at that time. When I came down after the shots were fired and everything else, I came back down because the crowd was big, it grew in a split second. I walked down to the edge of my driveway and I looked over to see the building, I can see the building they are working on from my bedroom window. He was talking, as I said, he was talking to a detective because his car was parked up on the grass on my side of street. And another officer in uniform had on a blue shirt. I didn't see the insignias, but I'm just saying that because Ferguson wear that types of collar, that may be a Ferguson officer that I had not talked to that man at all that day. Okay. I did not speak to him. All right. Let's back up a little bit then. When you come down and there are people saying things that you didn't see, how quickly after those last shots were fired was that happening? I mean, where people were actual actually saying things like that? After he hit the ground, I would say it took at least about a minute. That's when the crowd starts to gather, it was like an instant? In a minute, maybe 20, 30, two, three minutes, at least be about 70 or 80, it grew. Not just the crowd, but people talking about saying things that didn't happen? Right, right. They start embellishing it when the stepfather showed up. When, I'm sorry? The stepfather. The stepfather. He's the first one that I later found out, I didn't know it was the stepfather until a few minutes later when he approached. They had started the tape up and he was trying to get to him. Oh, you know, my God, yeah, he was screaming and hollering. And the officer is trying to calm him down. And then I saw his cousin, a little girl, she has blond hair, she ran up the street. They all came from Northwinds. That's where the majority of the crowd came from. When you say they started embellishing, what did you hear? Oh, the officer ran up behind and shot him in the back. That's not true? Not true. What else? He hads his hand straight up in the air, not true. Then some guy, I don't know who the heck it was, I had never seen him before, he came out of the blue. He was coming out saying that Mike had reached in and got the gun out of his hand, not true. You mention on August 12th that after that it was everyone started coming from the back saying, oh, my God, he had his hands up in the air telling him don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. And you said he never uttered a word, right? Right. Referring to Michael Brown? I said that I could hear. Right, right. Just what you saw and heard. That I could hear. And you went on to say, that's when everyone come back and all of them started saying things, oh, he was on his knees. Yeah. When he shot him, he shot him on his knees? Right. And then he came by and they said he was lying down and the officer came and shot him in the head. That was false. None of those things happened? None of those things happened, none of those things. I also want to ask you, you said early on when we were talking you saw Michael Brown earlier in the day? Uh-huh. Can you describe your interaction of what you saw? Me and the lady was sitting outside, sitting on the step. She was sitting in her chair on the lower level and he come up, instead of going through the driveway, they cut across the grass right there. When you say that was he with his friend that he was there during the incident? No, he was with some girl. I never seen her before either. And he came through and he say, how you doing, sir, how you doing, ma'am. I said, how you doing. I said, you all doing okay? Yeah. He said all right, looks like it is going to be a good day. All right. And he walked up. About what time was that. About, it was early. It was early. I don't know, probably around 8:00, somewhere after 8:00. Did you see him at all that morning. Next time I saw Michael he was laying on the ground, or the street. Have you seen that girl he was walking with, have you seen her since. I think I have. I can't say 100 percent sure. I wasn't paying too much attention to her. He was talking to me. You talking to me, I'm looking at your face. Do you know her name? No, no, I don't know. Let me ask you. I don't want to know anybody else. Let's talk about that. You talk about the things, the crowd grew and the young guys out there saying things that were not true. August 12th, you said something about this, I want to ask you about it. By living out there if you go against what they are saying, you think they might nut you up and go crazy. What do you mean by that? They had it in their mindset of what happened. They're set. They are looking for a reason to explode because they don't have anything to do. Why, why look for a reason to explode? They got nothing else to do. They are running all day, they are drinking and they're getting high all today. We see this all the time. We have been on Canfield Green apartment management to get all the drugs out of there. Okay. All the time. Northwinds got so bad they put gates up. When the gates up, the crime went up. You know, I don't trust anyone out there. They all walking around with their pants below their butts and everything else, no T-shirts on and they are so strong they will stand right there in front of you and roll that stuff up. I had to run two of them off my porch who and came and sit on my porch while and grandkids are inside, I'd been to the doctor's office. (inaudible) They are sitting on my porch, on my chairs rolling up their blunts. That's how it is. And if they strong enough to do that and they feel you are going up against them, huh-uh, never, I've got I have to protect. What would happen to somebody like that? Oh, shoot, they'll jump you, they'll jump you. Do you think that's the general feeling there if someone say something to either us or the local police, goes against what they want, that they will go against them. I think now as it is getting longer in time, the majority of them in our neighborhood, my community, want the truth. It is that outside forces that are coming in. When they burnt that thing down yesterday, 80 percent of the people were from the city, not from there. Cars were coming in, the parking lots were full. That lets us know immediately this is not Canfield, this is not Ferguson. You mention the burning down issue, the memorial? Yes. Did you see that? Oh, yes. What did you see? I was standing outside in the morning, I come out every morning, step out, try to smoke a cigarette outside. I stepped outside, there was a gray car and a red car, I mean, a white and black car, sorry, sitting there. A gray, dark gray, charcoal gray car pulled up there, now there's three of them. The first two, they were taking pictures. In fact, a girl was in the white car, she got out and stood on the driver's side, took a couple pictures, got in. And I saw those two drive off. The charcoal gray car pulled up beside it. I said, oh, I forgot my cigarette butt, I left it on the kitchen counter. So I walked in, I got it, I came back out, I left and I walked to the other side of the porch, just look around, I like to look around, see the cars and see who is out and everything else. By the time I reach my door step, my front door, he gunned it or she gunned it or they gunned it and the car peeled off. Next thing I know, whoosh. It shot up? It just blew up and there wasn't no slow flame, it just whoosh. You talking about the memorial? Yes. Did you see anybody go other and do anything? I didn't see anybody. They could have done anything from the car window. They could have threw something out of the window. But that was definitely to me an accelerant because the way the fire went up, it just went whoosh. It wasn't a slow burn. I mean, they talking about a candle, candle, most of that stuff was wet. Okay. Most of it was wet. All right. We are going to leave this running. I'll talk to myself. Okay.

  • We'll be back in just a minute, thank you.

  • Okay. We'll be back in just a

  • I'll talk to myself. Okay.

  • All right. We are going to leave this running.

    I'll talk to myself.

  • Most of it was wet. All right. We are going to

  • Okay. Most of it was wet.

  • I didn't see anybody. They could have done anything from the car window. They could have threw something out of the window. But that was definitely to me an accelerant because the way the fire went up, it just went whoosh. It wasn't a slow burn. I mean, they talking about a candle, candle, most of that stuff was wet.

    Okay.

  • Did you see anybody go other and do anything?

    I didn't see anybody. They

  • Yes. Did you see anybody go other

  • You talking about the memorial? Yes.

  • It just blew up and there wasn't no slow flame, it just whoosh.

    You talking about the memorial?

  • It shot up? It just blew up and there

  • I was standing outside in the morning, I come out every morning, step out, try to smoke a cigarette outside. I stepped outside, there was a gray car and a red car, I mean, a white and black car, sorry, sitting there. A gray, dark gray, charcoal gray car pulled up there, now there's three of them.

    The first two, they were taking pictures. In fact, a girl was in the white car, she got out and stood on the driver's side, took a couple pictures, got in. And I saw those two drive off.

    The charcoal gray car pulled up beside it. I said, oh, I forgot my cigarette butt, I left it on the kitchen counter. So I walked in, I got it, I came back out, I left and I walked to the other side of the porch, just look around, I like to look around, see the cars and see who is out and everything else. By the time I reach my door step, my front door, he gunned it or she gunned it or they gunned it and the car peeled off.

    Next thing I know, whoosh.

    It shot up?

  • What did you see? I was standing outside in the

  • Oh, yes. What did you see?

  • Did you see that? Oh, yes.

  • Yes. Did you see that?

  • You mention the burning down issue, the memorial?

    Yes.

  • I think now as it is getting longer in time, the majority of them in our neighborhood, my community, want the truth. It is that outside forces that are coming in. When they burnt that thing down yesterday, 80 percent of the people were from the city, not from there. Cars were coming in, the parking lots were full. That lets us know immediately this is not Canfield, this is not Ferguson.

    You mention the burning down

  • Do you think that's the general feeling there if someone say something to either us or the local police, goes against what they want, that they will go against them.

    I think now as it is getting

  • Oh, shoot, they'll jump you, they'll jump you.

    Do you think that's the general

  • What would happen to somebody like that?

    Oh, shoot, they'll jump you,

  • They got nothing else to do. They are running all day, they are drinking and they're getting high all today. We see this all the time.

    We have been on Canfield Green apartment management to get all the drugs out of there. Okay. All the time. Northwinds got so bad they put gates up. When the gates up, the crime went up. You know, I don't trust anyone out there.

    They all walking around with their pants below their butts and everything else, no T-shirts on and they are so strong they will stand right there in front of you and roll that stuff up.

    I had to run two of them off my porch who and came and sit on my porch while and grandkids are inside, I'd been to the doctor's office. (inaudible) They are sitting on my porch, on my chairs rolling up their blunts. That's how it is.

    And if they strong enough to do that and they feel you are going up against them, huh-uh, never, I've got I have to protect.

    What would happen to somebody

  • Why, why look for a reason to explode?

    They got nothing else to do.

  • They had it in their mindset of what happened. They're set. They are looking for a reason to explode because they don't have anything to do.

    Why, why look for a reason to

  • Let's talk about that. You talk about the things, the crowd grew and the young guys out there saying things that were not true. August 12th, you said something about this, I want to ask you about it. By living out there if you go against what they are saying, you think they might nut you up and go crazy. What do you mean by that?

    They had it in their mindset

  • I don't want to know anybody else.

    Let's talk about that. You

  • Let me ask you. I don't want to know anybody

  • No, no, I don't know. Let me ask you.

  • Do you know her name? No, no, I don't know.

  • I think I have. I can't say 100 percent sure. I wasn't paying too much attention to her. He was talking to me. You talking to me, I'm looking at your face.

    Do you know her name?

  • Have you seen that girl he was walking with, have you seen her since.

    I think I have. I can't say

  • Next time I saw Michael he was laying on the ground, or the street.

    Have you seen that girl he was

  • Did you see him at all that morning.

    Next time I saw Michael he

  • About, it was early. It was early. I don't know, probably around 8:00, somewhere after 8:00.

    Did you see him at all that

  • About what time was that. About, it was early. It was

  • No, he was with some girl. I never seen her before either. And he came through and he say, how you doing, sir, how you doing, ma'am. I said, how you doing. I said, you all doing okay? Yeah. He said all right, looks like it is going to be a good day. All right. And he walked up.

    About what time was that.

  • When you say that was he with his friend that he was there during the incident?

    No, he was with some girl. I

  • Me and the lady was sitting outside, sitting on the step. She was sitting in her chair on the lower level and he come up, instead of going through the driveway, they cut across the grass right there.

    When you say that was he with

  • Can you describe your interaction of what you saw?

    Me and the lady was sitting

  • Uh-huh. Can you describe your

  • I also want to ask you, you said early on when we were talking you saw Michael Brown earlier in the day?

    Uh-huh.

  • None of those things happened, none of those things.

    I also want to ask you, you

  • None of those things happened?

    None of those things

  • That was false. None of those things

  • And then he came by and they said he was lying down and the officer came and shot him in the head.

    That was false.

  • Right. And then he came by and they

  • When he shot him, he shot him on his knees?

    Right.

  • Yeah. When he shot him, he shot

  • And you went on to say, that's when everyone come back and all of them started saying things, oh, he was on his knees.

    Yeah.

  • That I could hear. And you went on to say,

  • Right, right. Just what you saw and heard.

    That I could hear.

  • I said that I could hear. Right, right. Just what you

  • Referring to Michael Brown? I said that I could hear.

  • Right. Referring to Michael Brown?

  • You mention on August 12th that after that it was everyone started coming from the back saying, oh, my God, he had his hands up in the air telling him don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. And you said he never uttered a word, right?

    Right.

  • He hads his hand straight up in the air, not true. Then some guy, I don't know who the heck it was, I had never seen him before, he came out of the blue. He was coming out saying that Mike had reached in and got the gun out of his hand, not true.

    You mention on August 12th

  • What else? He hads his hand straight up

  • Not true. What else?

  • That's not true? Not true.

  • Oh, the officer ran up behind and shot him in the back.

    That's not true?

  • When you say they started embellishing, what did you hear?

    Oh, the officer ran up behind

  • He's the first one that I later found out, I didn't know it was the stepfather until a few minutes later when he approached. They had started the tape up and he was trying to get to him. Oh, you know, my God, yeah, he was screaming and hollering. And the officer is trying to calm him down.

    And then I saw his cousin, a little girl, she has blond hair, she ran up the street. They all came from Northwinds. That's where the majority of the crowd came from.

    When you say they started

  • The stepfather. He's the first one that I

  • The stepfather. The stepfather.

  • When, I'm sorry? The stepfather.

  • Right, right. They start embellishing it when the stepfather showed up.

    When, I'm sorry?

  • Not just the crowd, but people talking about saying things that didn't happen?

    Right, right. They start

  • In a minute, maybe 20, 30, two, three minutes, at least be about 70 or 80, it grew.

    Not just the crowd, but

  • That's when the crowd starts to gather, it was like an instant?

    In a minute, maybe 20, 30,

  • After he hit the ground, I would say it took at least about a minute.

    That's when the crowd starts

  • All right. Let's back up a little bit then. When you come down and there are people saying things that you didn't see, how quickly after those last shots were fired was that happening? I mean, where people were actual actually saying things like that?

    After he hit the ground, I

  • I did not speak to him. All right. Let's back up a

  • Okay. I did not speak to him.

  • No, he didn't say that at that time. When I came down after the shots were fired and everything else, I came back down because the crowd was big, it grew in a split second. I walked down to the edge of my driveway and I looked over to see the building, I can see the building they are working on from my bedroom window.

    He was talking, as I said, he was talking to a detective because his car was parked up on the grass on my side of street. And another officer in uniform had on a blue shirt. I didn't see the insignias, but I'm just saying that because Ferguson wear that types of collar, that may be a Ferguson officer that I had not talked to that man at all that day.

    Okay.

  • Maybe I misunderstood. Did you say also that the workers were down there at the same time saying, no, we didn't see that either at that time?

    No, he didn't say that at

  • Uh-huh. Maybe I misunderstood. Did

  • People were coming out and saying all kind of things. And you talked about people talking about him having his hands straight up in the air you kind of said, no, that's not what I saw.

    Uh-huh.

  • Uh-huh. People were coming out and

  • Let's go back to that. You first started talking about the two white workers that were there when you first came down.

    Uh-huh.

  • No, that's just the way the people reacted.

    Let's go back to that. You

  • Did he have anything else to say about it, anything crazy about it?

    No, that's just the way the

  • You know, he said, this was crazy, you know.

    Did he have anything else to

  • Everywhere. You know, he said, this was

  • No, uh-huh. All he had to do was connect the pipe. They had missed a connection on the pipe and then we got to talking about barbecuing, talking about, started talking about other things. He lived in Jefferson County. He said how bad it is down there, you know. Now I have to come here, stuff happens everywhere.

    Everywhere.

  • Was there any other conversation within that day about this?

    No, uh-huh. All he had to do

  • She's the downstairs lady. Was there any other

  • Who is she? She's the downstairs lady.

  • Older lady, she didn't see the incident though.

    Who is she?

  • You said there was a lady with you during this conversation?

    Older lady, she didn't see

  • Right, right. I'm standing there, he come down there and working on the pipe. I was barbecuing, that's how the conversation started. And we got, he said, man, I'm so shook up and everything else about this and that. He said, well, it got crazy all of these guys over there, everybody running around, they're talking about the man had his hands all the way up in the air, he didn't. Did you see that? I know you saw it, didn't you? I said, yeah. He said, did you see what I see? I said, yes. He didn't have them all the way up. And we both, at the same time, same position, okay. Young guy quit after that. He said, I'm not coming out here.

    You said there was a lady with

  • You were there and had that conversation?

    Right, right. I'm standing

  • They didn't talk to me, just in the course of conversation they were working on our building.

    You were there and had that

  • They were back there a few days later and talked to you personally?

    They didn't talk to me, just

  • Yeah, right. They were back there a few

  • These are the two white workers that you are talking about?

    Yeah, right.

  • There is no conversation during this break, so I'm going to try to fast forward it, it is not long.

    All right. , I don't think we have much. We don't want to take up a lot of more of your time. We just have a few more questions for you, okay.

    My understanding is before we took the break, you talk about one concern you had, obviously, after this shooting occurred, people coming out and saying things that were not true based on what you saw, correct?

    Yes. One of those things these young men coming out saying that Michael Brown had his hands all the way up in the air like surrendering at the time that the shooting was going on; is that correct?

    Right. You didn't see that? I did not see that. Okay. I just want to clarify that. If I could, I referred you to some of your statement on August 12th and I just want to make sure that I understand your statement then and now, okay. And if you like, I have another copy here, you can refer to if you want to or I can read you these portions, is that fine?

    That's fine. Okay. At the bottom of page seven it said, you are referring to Michael Brown, you said that he had like one foot on the grass and one foot on the driveway, which you told us today. And then he turned around and he was like this. So that is why people thought he raised his hands, and I think you are talking there about people claiming that he had his hands raised. You said he did something like this, is that what you are referring to him looking at his body?

    Looking at his body. And I stated there they embellish, they embellish.

    Okay. He had them up, to make it clearer that he was giving up, they went from one, which is what I saw to something that they probably, they assumed he did and stuck them straight up in the air.

    Right, okay. Okay. And so when you were demonstrating that he turned around and he had his hands like this, that is why people thought he raised his hands, you're talking about when he was looking at himself to try to determine whether he was injured?

    Right. Okay. And you said you went on page eight, you said he looked down and then he did this, and he looked at the officer and he walked and he took about three to five steps. He hit him again, pow, pow, pow. So you were demonstrating there again and then as you went on, Detective

    made an effort to kind of narrate the way you were demonstrating on the tape, do you recall that? Back on August 12th, when you were demonstrating for him he was kind of narrating back to you so it would show up on the tape, do you recall that?

    I believe so. Okay. On page 17 of your statement you said as he faces the officer, strike that.

    Detective asked you as he faces the officer. You say, uh-huh. You say that his hands go up to a point. Where? And you say about to his shoulders almost.

    And then you go on to page 18, and you say like this. And Detective says, kind of raised? And you say he had his hands up like this.

    And, of course, you can't see that on the tape so the detective narrates and he says, your arms are like palms up, and hands and fingers are roughly shoulder height, is that fair enough to say?

    You say, yeah, about close to his shoulder, yes, uh-huh.

    Not in the position that you got.

    Okay. When I said it, I said like this, not like this. They were close to the shoulder, yeah, about shoulder height.

    About shoulder height? About shoulder height. With palms up? His hands were out, his arms out away from the body, not like this. His were out like this. Away, they are away from his body.

    Okay. Not like this, not like this, not like this, they are away from his body. This is my shoulder, this is exactly how I showed him.

    Okay. With the palms up? Palms are up. All right. Nothing, I got nothing, I'm giving up.

    Okay. You say that they are about close to his shoulder and Detective says they are at about somewhat of an angle. And you say, what would you say, a 35 or 45 degree angle from the body.

    And you go on to say on page 18, he's standing there and he's looking, he's looking down at his body. And he looks up at the officer and you say, he looks up at the officer and by this time he was standing facing him after he turned around in this position.

    On page 19 you say, Detective asked you, Michael Brown is standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. So now his arms are further down, his hands are at his rib cage?

    After the shots. Okay. Someone left out it was after the shots.

    I just want to make sure. The first volley of shots? After the first volley of shots, his arms came down because he was staggering. Like he was coming, as he got hit like, oh, shoot, he was staggering around, all right.

    They had to come down a little bit, they were coming down. Like I said, when they weren't at his body, I didn't say they were next to his body. He asked me a question, I demonstrated and he said something that his narration is not what I showed, okay.

    The narration is not? Whatever he wrote, I don't know, he just stated, yes, but his depiction of what I said of what I showed him is incorrect.

    Let me just finish running through it, okay, and we can talk about it.

    Okay. Bottom of page 19, Detective says, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage. And you say, yeah.

    And Detective says, hands, palms up, and so they're at his rib cage, palms up.

    And then you say well, they weren't up against his rib cage, it was out because he was looking down, slightly away from his body.

    Uh-huh. And Detective says that he was looking down at his body at some point. And you say, right, right, uh-huh.

    And then you go on to say on page 20. Detective says, is anybody saying anything at this point?

    And you say the officer as he raised his head, he told him to stop. As Michael Brown raised his head, the officer told hold to stop; is that right?

    Right. And he says, as Michael Brown raises his head? And you said, as he raises his head, he says stop right there. He asked you, the officer says this? And your response was, yeah, he did say stop. And when he left from that fixed spot, then he was walking toward him.

    And he asked you, towards the officer? And you say, towards the officer. When he, as soon as he put his foot on the street, he hit him three times.

    And he asked you like, how many steps do you think he took before the officer fired? He said, big boy, he didn't take that many steps, I really couldn't count, yeah.

    And so that's the first volley that he has his hands down near his ribs at the time of the first volley?

    Right. Okay. I just wanted to make sure of that. That's why I wanted to ask you about this, sir. You know, there were three or four times where Detective , or you went back to when Michael Brown turned around and where his hands were. And on August 12th, I mean, there wasn't even any mention with him having his hands up with his palms facing the officer or all the way up.

    I didn't say, when he turned, his hands was up, he was looking down to see where he was hit.

    Uh-huh. His back was turned like this. As he was turning around, still looking, when he faced the officer, there they were.

    Above his shoulders now? No, they are right by his shoulders, right by his shoulders.

    On the 12th you only describe him as having his palms up toward the sky, right?

    No, I did not say that they were pointing up. I said, his hands were up like this. I didn't state palms towards the sky.

    All right. If you go say that, no, no, no, no, I never said pointed up.

    This isn't something he wrote.

    I didn't say pointed up toward the sky.

    Detective asked you, your arms are like palms up and hands

    Palms up? --with hands or fingers are shoulder height?

    Isn't this up? Palms up, right? Is this up? I've got them down like this now, this is my depiction of up, not like this, this is my depiction.

    All right. One thing that concerned me though is that people are coming forward and saying that he had his hands up.

    Above his head. Above his head. Like this, all the way up. All right. He didn't. But consistently as it is described on August 12th, you have your palms up, right? And not facing towards the officer, but palms up, correct?

    Right. When he turned to face the officer, his hands were in this position.

    Okay. With his palms facing out, sir, or were the palms facing up?

    This is what I consider up. So you consider this up? We need to be able to describe this for the tape, that's

    This is facing forward, to clarify?

    Well, he was facing up then facing forward.

    Okay. Not like this. They were facing him, hands u like this is my hands palms facing the officer they weren't like this pointed towards the sky. They were pointed toward him.

    That's what I wanted to ask you is because on August 12th, I mean, you never said anything at any time about his palms actually facing the officer.

    I said his hands were up. I never said his palms were facing the sky. I said his hands were up, about shoulder length, arms out away from the body, that's what I said. I'm going to stick with that because that's what I saw.

    Before the first volley though, his hands were coming down towards his rib cage?

    Yeah, he was looking for them, he's still looking like. He's searching to see where he was shot. His arms were like this.

    All right. Now you have your palms sort of facing --

    Right, like this. He is searching his body and looking at his arms and everything to see where he was shot.

    All right. When he turned around and faced the officer, I'm going to say it again, this is what I saw. His hands was up shoulder length, palms facing the officer, not up toward the sky. That is my definition of palm, hands up, okay.

    Now, when the people down the street demonstrate they say hands up, they are like this. Not like that, but like this.

    Hands straight up in the air?

    Right. And that didn't happen? No. And just to clarify there, you were then demonstrating that after he turned around, his hands come back down towards his rib cage and you were demonstrating, I want to make sure this is clear for the tape. If you don't agree with what I say, correct me, and I know that you will.

    Uh-huh. When his hands come back down, you're demonstrating that his palms are then sort of facing towards himself as he is looking at his body seeing if he is injured?

    Right, still looking, he's looking again.

    That was immediately before that first volley of shots?

    Right. And that was at the time that the Officer Wilson was staying stop.

    He had already stopped. He was looking, he was turning around, still looking. The officer said stop, he was turning. Okay. He's doing this, my back is to the officer. He is looking at his body like this. And just as he started turning, the officer said stop and he was still looking.

    And then he looked up, and when he was caught looking at the officer, his arm proceeded to go out like this. Palms away from, facing the officer, arms away from the body, palms facing in I give up stance, I give up.

    The officer again says stop. He wasn't moving, he took a step up. He stepped out on the street, his hands were still in the exact same position, palms facing up, arms away from the body and he shot him.

    Now, you just said though that before he shot, before that volley, his hands had come back down towards the rib cage.

    He came down, right. He still turned around before the shots, he looked up and as he faced the officer, his hands went up. He was still doing this as he was turning, looking at hisself. He was checking his body out to see what was going on it.

    As he turned, I'm looking, I'm turning, I'm looking, his hands like this.

    You have your hands and your arms --

    Right, like this. It was away from the body, palms are facing like this.

    Palms are facing towards his own body?

    Okay. I'm looking up, I see you, you're the officer. His arms went up. That's when I demonstrated to him as I was standing there, okay.

    Now, he asked me a question, yes. Hands were up, that's it. This is what I say hands were up. Not this. Every depiction of everything that these people are doing out in the street so far, photographs and T-shirts, hands up. Not palms up, hands up.

    The hands straight up. Right. That's what they are saying. My definition what I saw his hands were up like this, same way.

    Shoulder height? But only they were here. All right. But if I understand correctly, what you said today and what you said on August 12th is, he then takes a step or two forward off that curb.

    Uh-huh. The officer was saying stop again.

    Uh-huh. And at the time of that first volley, his hands had come back down towards his rib cage where again he is looking to see if he had been shot.

    I have to say he already had them down. As he turned, he started to face the officer, his hands were up. They didn't come back down again until after the volley was fired.

    The first volley? The first volley. I know we went over that at length. So now, so tell me (inaudible) if so he's running away, he stops.

    Uh-huh. I'm looking around, seeing what's going on. He turns over this shoulder?

    No, turn your back, you are looking at yourself.

    I'm looking at myself, okay. All right. Now slowly turn to me during the same thing.

    Over this shoulder? Whatever. And then as you turn and you turn around and face me, then your hands go like this.

    I go like this. A round of shots go off, his hands are still here.

    His hands are here and then he steps forward, stop.

    As he's turning around, you said going like this, does he take a step forward?

    As he did that, he took a step forward, he said stop, but his hands was up by the time he said stop.

    Stop. He took a step, he was out in the street. When his foot hit the street, bam, bam, bam.

    So that's the first. So then where do his hands go?

    He is like this, he is like this, they moving down.

    He started doing this? He didn't really tell, but he got hit.

    You show it was kind of like a round.

    It was like, oh, and then he stopped. And then he was staggering to stay on his feet, I'm staggering to stay on my feet, you're the officer.

    Yes. I'm staggering to stay on my feet and then I raise up like this, my hands are still in this position.

    Okay. All right. I'm staggering, I'm like this, I'm falling forward, I'm just staggering towards you, I'm coming towards you.

    Okay. He takes three steps back as he started staggering. He's still in the position. When he started staggering forward, he let loose again.

    But he is staggering forward. That's how he was. He was barely up. He was trying to keep focus on the officer.

    When you say he fell, he didn't hit his knees, he fell face first.

    No, face first. The whole time he never moved his hands down like this?

    They were coming down as he was falling.

    His hands could have been at his side when he fell?

    It could have been. Okay. Let me ask you one more time, they weren't

    They weren't up under his body.

    You say on August 12th, you said Michael Brown standing facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage or Detective says that and you say, yeah. And he says, hands, palm up and you say uh-huh.

    And he was looking, he says he was looking down at his body at some point and you say, right, right.

    You said the officer as he raised his head he told him to stop. He asked you, as Michael Brown raised his head. You say as he raises his head, he says stop right there. You say the officer said this. And you say, yeah, he did say stop and he left from that big spot that he was walking towards him.

    And he asked you, towards the officer? And you say, toward the officer when he, as soon as he put his foot on the street, he hit him three times.

    How many steps do you think he took before the officer fired? You told him you didn't count it.

    So what you indicated there was at the time he takes the steps toward the officer, and the officer says stop right there, and then fires that first volley, you say that just before that, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer at this point with his hands at his rib cage, hands, palms up. So this is while he is looking?

    They are about like this. Yeah, but they're not, they are like this, they are up.

    That's fine. On August 12th you said that at the time --

    Right. --the first volley happened, he was facing the officer with his hands at his rib cage hands, palms up. Is that accurate? Is that accurate what you said?

    Yes, uh-huh. And then that's the first volley of shots?

    First volley. Okay, I think I understand. Hands up, no matter how you say it, hands up.

    At his rib cage. Right, about right in here. He's a big boy.

    Right. All right. He had definitely given up.

    The hands are at his rib cage at the time of the first volley of shots?

    Right. And with his hands, with his hands --

    Away from his rib cage, away. Not at his rib cage, away, his arms are still extended.

    Okay. So you have your hands kind of out by your sides now.

    Is this my rib cage? I'm just trying to understand for the tape. Your hands are now, they are lower now, hands down by the side.

    All right. (inaudible) The ribs.

    Is it fair to say that at the time of that first volley, Michael Brown is standing, facing the officer, with his hands at his rib cage, hands, palms up. Is that yes?

    I don't like the phrase palms up because when you say palms up, I'm saying his hands are like this.

    all I'm doing is asking about your statement on August 12th.

    Okay. I didn't say palms up. Hands up. I never said palms up.

    Okay. Well, repeatedly on August 12th it was palms up.

    No, I said hands up, I never said palms up.

    All right, that's fine. I said hands. I don't think we have anything else. I just wanted to clarify that and make sure what we have here, but what you've indicated though is what you said on August 12th was accurate and that is at the time of the first volley he had his hands at his rib cage; is that right?

    Yes. Okay. Okay. So the interview is completed 11 (inaudible) .

  • Okay. It is 11:33, we just completed playing the recorded statement of

    that was done by the FBI. Just making a point of saying on the record that they took a break during the interview. And I did fast forward through the break because there was no conversation during that time period, so we went forward to where the interview resumed. Would you all agree with that? You heard resume the interview, correct, all right? Everybody is shaking their head, okay.

    So we have here. Are we ready to bring him in? Everybody ready?

    Anybody need to stand up, go to the bathroom? Let's take a two minute break. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Would you please state your name and spell it for the court reporter, please? A

  • And, , I'm going to walk back here because if I can't hear you, and I have actually not the best hearing in the world, but I know we might not be able to hear you. The microphone that is in front of you does not amplify your voice, it is recording.

    So, and if any of you at any time can't hear what he says, you need him to repeat something, please raise your hands.

    So, can you tell me how old you are? A

  • And where do you live? A

  • That's in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • And how long have you lived there?

  • Uh, about years.

  • And back in August of this year you were living there; is that right?

  • And you lived there, I'm not going to ask you the names, but you lived there with ; is that correct?

  • And I'm going to show you, this is a laser pointer. So there is a little button right here and there is a map that is next to the witness stand. It is marked Grand Jury Exhibit 25. We have been using this for the past few meetings.

    Do you recognize this as being the streets and the buildings that comprise the apartment complex of Canfield Green?

  • Okay. And just to situate yourself, this is Canfield Drive that goes all the way through the apartment complex, correct?

  • I will tell you over in this direction is West Florissant?

  • West Florissant.

  • As you are going down Canfield in this direction you are going east and then the Northwinds Apartments are east of the Canfield Apartments, would that help orient you to how this is set up, correct?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • So now can you use the laser pointer and point to what building you were living in in August?

  • Right there. (indicating)

  • Okay. And so just so we can understand these buildings, these are apartments; correct?

  • Do you have to enter the building before you get into your apartment or does each apartment have an exterior door?

  • We have a porch, you walk up the steps, I stay on the second floor and I go through the door.

  • So from the outside of the building you walk up exterior steps?

  • And then your front door is on the exterior of the building?

  • And so is there like a little, is it wooden steps?

  • So is there like, uh, you said porch, like a little decking area?

  • Yeah, a little small wooden porch.

  • Okay. And that's right where your front door is?

  • Yeah, off, go from one side of the building, from one side of the steps all the way up, one continual porch.

  • So where you were pointing before, this little jet out on the roof of the building.

  • Yes, there are steps right here. You come around and you go up these steps.

  • This is the overhang right over the steps.

  • Okay. So this part is like an overhang that covers the steps from the elements?

  • And so you said that the decking or the porch, some people call it a balcony?

  • It goes all the length of the building?

  • Yeah, right. It spans almost halfway between where I am now where the red dot is and the end of the building, so just to about the middle.

  • Okay. Are there other apartments front doors on this side of the building?

  • Mine is on this side, this is this is and the third floor and

  • If this is the west side of the building, there is other front doors is what I'm saying.

    Okay. And you all share that balcony Correct. And you said you are on the second floor? So is there another way to get out of the apartment besides the front door?

  • No slider, no glass or anything?

  • Well, we have sliding glass doors, excuse me, other than the front door that opens out onto the porch. So we can get a breeze.

  • Okay. So you can go out onto the porch through the sliding glass door?

  • As well as the front door?

  • Okay. And so, urn, from when you stand, now, is there any furniture on your porch?

  • Yes, I have two chairs and a table.

  • Do you have a habit or just something you like to do is to sit out on the porch?

  • Yeah, I like to sit out on the porch early in the morning. Sometimes, especially when the kids are going to school I sit out and keep an eye on them. And I have a neighbor downstairs who lives in the lower level and sometimes her and I sit out and talk, you know, since I'm collecting Social Security, I don't work and she's retired, and keep each other company, just keep an eye out.

  • Okay. And just, again, so I'm clear, does this porch or deck or balcony, whatever we are calling it, does it wrap around to the other side of the building?

  • No, it doesn't.

  • So when you sit on your chairs, are you north of the little staircase?

  • I'm right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. And so from that position when you are on your balcony at that position you have a good shot down Canfield?

  • I can see all the way down to this end. Almost right to the bend.

  • Okay. So now, let's talk about the 9th of August. You know the exact times are not important, but this occurs a little after noon on the 9th?

  • Do you remember was there anything that memorable about your day prior to that? Do you remember anything happening or special?

  • It was normal. I was watching the gentlemen that were working on this side here. They were making a lot of racket, they were doing a lot of plumbing and excavation over here.

    My bedroom window is located on this side, so I can see this building completely and I can see up to about right here from my window.

  • Was home that day?

  • Okay. Now, we know that other people arrived at the apartment, but in the morning, was it just you and your home that day?

  • And so just to be clear, from your bedroom window, which you say is on the north side of the building, there is no balcony?

  • You can't get out of your bedroom from there?

  • Okay. So, and it was a clear day?

  • Yes, it was.

  • Sunny and hot, right?

  • Do you have air conditioning in that unit?

  • Yes, central air, yes.

  • Central air, yes.

  • So would you of had your windows closed, I mean, it is August 9th I would imagine you probably have the AC running?

  • Well, we didn't turn it on, we like to keep it off for a while. We will turn it off early in the morning and wait until the temperature rises because can't take the cold that much. So I usually wait until maybe 1:00 or 2:00 and then I will turn on the air when it starts to get hot.

  • When you don't have the air on, do you have the windows open or closed?

  • How about the sliding glass door, would that be open, do you have a screen for that slider?

  • Sometimes has it open, sometimes doesn't. occupies the living room.

  • That's domain.

  • All right. So, at some point, we know that your brother and his wife come over to you and

    apartment, correct?

  • But at some point there is something that draws your attention to the street, correct?

  • Whatever it is, and we'll talk about it in a second, whatever draws your attention to the street, is that before or after your brother and his wife get there?

  • It is practically simultaneous.

  • I was looking out the window and I saw two gentlemen walking down, they were right on the middle line walking down the street. I couldn't overhear, but they were saying something to the workers. They were walking in the very middle of the street, which caught my attention.

    I saw my brother's truck coming this way, so I got up to meet him at the door. That's what happened.

  • Okay. You saw two gentlemen walking down the middle of the street you say?

  • And they were walking west toward West Canfield?

  • I mean West Florissant.

  • Yes, towards West Florissant.

  • Just to be clear about this, did you see them walking and then do you see them later in a different position?

  • When I, as I saw them pass, I saw my brother's truck coming down, I got up.

  • By the time I got to the door and opened the door, my brother had just pulled in.

  • They were located right about right here.

    (Indicating).

  • They had progressed past this one driveway and they were right about here, almost close to the next driveway.

  • Okay. And now the two men we're talking about, was one of the men Michael Brown?

  • I later found out it was, yes.

  • But it is the same person that you later see get shot in the street?

  • And we know, we've heard from your previous statements that you knew who he was from the complex, but you didn't know his name on that date?

  • No, I didn't.

  • And you weren't friends with him other than a polite greeting in passing?

  • Yes, he has a friend who lives in this building right here. He would come through every now and then, he would speak to me and the lady downstairs or sometimes I see him at the store, at the QuikTrip or any of the other stores. He would always speak to me, I would speak to him.

  • But you recognized him as someone you had seen in the complex?

    Right. What about his friend? I had never seen him before. Okay. And Mike Brown, we know is a big Yes. He was 6'5" or something like that? Yes. And the other gentleman, was he shorter? Skinnier? Thin, dreadlocks I think it was, braids, whatever you call them.

  • And so you saw those two guys walking from, they stopped, you saw them talking to the two construction workers?

  • Yeah, kind of slowed down, they were talking to them as they were steadily walking.

  • Okay. So they didn't stop and chat for like 30 minutes or anything like that?

  • Not for long, I don't think they stopped that long, no.

  • And at this point, other than you saw them walking down the middle of the street, was there anything that was odd to you?

  • Nothing odd, no.

  • And so you see your brother driving his truck down and he pulls onto Caddiefield, does he park and he and his wife get out of the truck?

  • He parks, almost immediately as soon as he comes in because right behind him was an officer, excuse me, he was coming in this direction. And my brother got out and heard him say something, I couldn't overhear what he said.

  • Okay. Let me stop. You said your brother got out and you couldn't hear what he said. Are you talking about your brother?

  • Saying something?

  • No, by the time he got to the porch, the truck was coming down, the officer's vehicle was coming this way. By the time my brother got to the porch, he was just past the two guys. He slowed down and then he kind of went a little further and then he backed around and he turned around and he came in, like cut them off.

  • Okay. So let's stop. So your brother has got, what is it a pickup truck or SUV?

  • He has a SUV.

  • SUV. So he's coming in from this direction, does he pass this Mike Brown and the other kid walking in the street?

  • Yes, he had just passed. He had to pass them when he got to my driveway. They were past my entranceway right there, they were about right here.

  • So your brother goes past them, did he have to go like around them, are they still in the middle of street?

  • They are still in the middle of the street?

  • Your brother then goes this direction and you said you see a police vehicle?

  • And is it an SUV?

  • And it is a Ferguson vehicle?

  • And you see it driving in which direction, coming from here?

  • Going this way, going eastbound.

  • When is the first point you notice the Ferguson vehicle, where was it?

  • When my brother pulled in, he was about right here. (indicating)

  • And you say he was driving this way?

  • And then does he pass the two guys that are walking in the street?

  • I'm looking, my brother's back there, we looked around, him and his wife. He kind of slowed down and said something. And he had just got maybe a few feet past them, right about here, all right, and they were steadily walking. I couldn't hear from the distance, I couldn't hear anything that they are saying.

  • Next thing we know.

  • Let me stop you. Are you now, where are you in your apartment?

  • I'm on the my porch.

  • By the front door?

  • I'm outside my on the front door right at the railing.

  • Okay. And so you stayed, you couldn't hear if anything was said?

  • And then what happens next?

  • The officer backs his car up and he kind of put the car at an angle with the front pointed, okay. Let me see right here. His car was pointed toward that tree, there is a tree right there if you can see it. And I'm looking at the passenger side, we're looking at the passenger side, we couldn't see the driver's side.

  • So you're saying that the police vehicle was still pointing east?

  • Yes, he was still pointing east, sort of east. He was sort of at an angle. I've got a 45 degree angle.

  • But he never turned around in the street?

  • So he passes the boys and then backs up?

  • Yeah, and cuts them off.

  • He cuts in front.

  • And then the vehicle stops at somewhat of an angle?

  • Okay. But from your vantage point here, you are seeing the passenger side of the car?

  • Yeah, I couldn't see the driver's side. We're looking at the passenger side, and Michael and the gentleman were on this sidewalk, on this side.

  • So, let's be clear --

  • No, they were close to the side --they are on the sidewalk side, but they were still in the street.

  • Were they on the driver's side of the vehicle?

  • At that time, when he cut them off, they were both on the driver's side.

  • Okay. So let me ask you, when they were walking down the street, did they stay on the yellow line in the middle of street?

  • Yeah, they stayed in the street.

  • But the officer cuts them off?

  • And so, but they're on the driver's side of the car at this point?

  • Yes, but they are still in the street, they're not on the sidewalk, they are still in the street.

  • All right. And so is the officer's vehicle between you and the boys?

  • Now, we know Mike Brown was tall, could you see his head over the roof of the car?

  • A little bit, yes.

  • Okay. But did you, was it, what about the smaller guy?

  • Couldn't see him.

  • Couldn't see him?

  • Then why don't you describe what happened next?

  • Okay. After the officer stopped and pulled in that position. Michael walked, something he was saying, I don't know what he was saying or whatever. He proceeded to walk towards the officer's truck on the driver's side. They was still located right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. Then my brother noticed, he said wait a minute, looks like they're struggling. We are looking at the car, we can see them tussling, all right. His head was above the truck for a moment and then it went below it.

  • All right. And it was still tussling. His friend had backed up a step back on the sidewalk, then we heard a shot. His friend ran this direction, Michael ran to this driveway right here, beside this building.

  • Just so we can be clear, this street is Copper Creek Court?

  • So you are saying, you had the pointer, the little laser

  • Right, right here.

  • at the corner of Canfield Drive and Copper Creek Court?

  • Right, he had ran towards this way. As he's running --

  • He's running east down Canfield?

  • As he's running this way, the officer got out of his truck, came around from the back, got to this side where he was now on the driver's side because he had a clear line of Michael over here.

    Then he assumed his position with the pistol. As he turned around, as he came around, he was coming up with the gun. He held the gun up like this. (indicating) When he got to here, Michael was standing right on the grass and he was like looking down at his body.

  • Okay. Let me stop you here. At this point have you seen anything in Michael's hands?

  • When he was stopped, when they were talking down the street, did you see anything in his hands?

  • How about the other boy, anything in his hands?

  • They weren't carrying anything that you saw?

  • And then you said, you know how important some of this gesturing has been, right?

  • Uh-huh, right.

  • So they are here to actually witness what you are going to do. And so you say when Michael Brown gets to, is he in the grass actually?

  • He's is standing at the very edge. Okay. The driveways are blacktop, he is stopped right at the blacktop right, at the very edge.

  • His back was turned to the officer.

  • And he had his hands like this, like he's looking down at his body to see.

  • Okay. Can I ask you to stand up that will really help them to see what you're doing and he's stopped now?

  • He's stopped with his back towards the officer and he stopped and he was doing this. As he was trying to see where he was shot.

  • As he was turning, at that time the officer had already been around to the back of his truck and got into his spot. By the time he got there, while Michael was there, he was slowly turning around and the officer said stop. When Michael turned around, he just put his hands up like this. They were shoulder high, they weren't above his head, but he did have them up. He had them out like this, all right, palms facing him like this.

    The officer said stop again. Michael then took a step, a few steps it took for him to get from that blacktop to the street. When he stepped out on the street, the officer said stop one more time and then he fired. He fired three to four shots. When he hit him, he went back. Can I stand?

  • When he hit him he, did like this, and he went like, like his balance --he started staggering and he looked up at the officer like why.

  • Now, just to be clear, you can't hear him say anything?

  • I can't hear him say that, but he's looking at him and he is doing, you know. So then as he's stopped, he's trying to steady, he starts staggering, my brother says, he's not going to stand up, he's getting ready to fall, he's getting ready to fall.

    He looks like he was trying to stay on his feet, and he started staggering toward the police officer and he still had his hands up.

    At some point between the officer's truck, which by that time this is about 30, 35 feet, when he reached out into the street, he started walking toward the officer, the officer took three steps back and he yelled out stop to Michael again three times.

    Michael's steadily walking toward him. More or less to me and to my brothers, he was staggering.

  • Okay. To your brothers, did you have more than one brother?

  • Well, I mean my brother. I didn't mean to say brothers, my brother. He was staggering, you know. And as he was staggering forward, his head, his body kind of went down at an angle. He was like this, more or less fighting to stay up. You could see his legs wobbling.

  • Were his hands the way you had them?

  • His hands were coming down like this, all right. And he had his head up and he's facing the officer like this and he is steadily moving, and the officer was moving back, stop. He yelled stop the third time, he let off four more shops, but as he was firing, Michael was falling. After he stopped firing, Michael, he went down face first, smack.

    When that happened, another police truck SUV pulled in behind him, again, assumed almost that exact same spot. He pulled in almost at the exact same angle.

    The officer, when we looked around, he was gone, we didn't see him. His friend, we never saw him.

  • When you said we looked around, the officer was gone?

  • Are you talking about --

  • He didn't drive off, he walked away. He must have walked back to the other officer.

  • Okay. Are you talking about the officer who did the shooting?

  • Who fired the hot.

  • Okay. He had walked away from Michael Brown's body?

  • He walked back and the other officer was coming towards the driveway. We never saw him.

    This is when I lost sight of what was going on.

  • Why did you lose sight of what was going on?

  • Because freaked out, and sister-in-law freaked out.

  • Did you go inside your apartment?

  • No, was standing right at my shoulder.

  • Okay. All I did was turn around, was like oh, my God, was about ready to collapse. , oh, I never seen anything like that. That's when my attention turned to

    My brother's attention turned to his wife. She was standing to right. My attention was to So when I grabbed to try to calm, because get together and got in, backed up and went in and sat down. I told hold on, I'll be right with you.

    My sister-in-law came in and she walked in the door and she was freaking out. She is running all through the house. And when we looked back, we never saw the sight of the other officer. We saw the other police officer walked up to the sidewalk. He stopped right there. And then everyone from this side, from this building, this building, started running up to the front. And then there was a crowd that came from this way.

    It is almost like someone had, whatever kids are doing and the crowd is whoosh, came right there, that was it.

  • Okay. Now, you wear glasses I see?

  • Do you need them for distance or reading or both?

  • Did you have them on that day?

  • So when you wear your glasses, would you say your vision is good?

  • Okay. Now, after the officer shot Michael Brown and he went down in the street, did you ever see anybody move Michael Brown's body or than when they took it away?

  • What about the officer who shot, did you ever see his car move after that?

  • No, it stayed in that position the whole time.

  • Okay. And then you know that, did you see later in the day that there were multitude of police officers there?

  • Tremendous amount.

  • And did you see that they were doing crime scene work, they're collecting things, they're taking measurements, did you see any of that?

  • I saw a few of them. When they got there, they put tapes up, can't even see there's a pole and another tree right here. They ran it from here to a pole here, across the street and then there's another tree here. They had almost like boxed it in right there.

    While they were doing it, that's when the stepfather, I later found out was the stepfather and his cousin were coming down the street. She was screaming and hollering, and my focus was on the stepfather because I was trying, they was trying to keep him from crossing the tape. He wanted to go over and see his body.

    When he got there, I left out of my apartment, went around the street, got right up here where his head was pointing towards this direction to see who he was. I had an idea, but I wasn't sure. When I got there, I saw his face, that's when I noticed who he was. When I saw that, I'm like oh, my God. So I went immediately back. I just wanted to go down there to see.

    I'm still worried about and my sister-in-law because they was still freaking out. When I got back, the lady that is downstairs with me and I told her. You know that big guy that we see? We call him the gentle giant. You know the gentle giant that comes through? She say, yeah. That's who is laying out in the middle of the street, and then she freaked out.

  • Right, of course.

  • And , I'm not trying to confuse you or have you change your recollection in any way?

  • After this occurred, police officers arrive on the scene and were taking photographs, did you see any of that?

  • No, I didn't.

  • Okay. I am going to show you a couple of photographs that were taken and these are photographs that have been identified previously as contained in Grand Jury Exhibit 3. Detective the crime scene person, had taken these photographs. And I am going to show you what I've marked as Image Number 24.

    I didn't mark it, it is already marked as Image Number 24, okay. Now, looking at that image, if I tell you that in this direction the cameraman is facing West Florissant.

  • And this is the officer's vehicle in street, do you see which direction it is facing?

  • Yes, it is right there.

  • But it is generally, you're right, it is catty-corner, but it is facing towards West Florissant?

  • Right. I'm thinking, see here is the sidewalk. See where it is looking towards me is right down the street.

  • So I'm going to show you Image Number 25, which is a little closer view of that vehicle?

  • Yeah, I'm still seeing it's pointing toward the sidewalk from my viewpoint. It is pointing toward the sidewalk.

  • And this direction is West Florissant?

  • Does that change your recollection of which direction the officer's vehicle was facing?

  • Yes, it does. This is wrong, this is wrong.

  • You are saying this is wrong and I want to make sure we're clear on. Do you believe that the pictures are wrong?

  • From the angle.

  • You think that the pictures are wrong from the angle. Let me see if I can find different pictures from different angles. This is Image Number 18. That's Officer's Wilson car there.

  • This is Number 19, this is Officer Wilson's car?

  • Yes, okay. My apartment is on this side. So, yes, that is correct.

  • So does that change your recollection about which direction the car was facing?

  • I'm saying, yeah, I still say it was pointed towards the guy, his body. This is the angle, yes, I had it this way. It is that way from my angle from where I'm looking.

  • Okay. So but you still believe that the officer's vehicle came from this direction?

  • Okay. And it never turned around in the street?

  • I didn't see it turn around.

  • Do you know how the officer's vehicle got

  • He did it, he went past here as he was going, all right. And then he eventually backed up and turned. (indicating)

  • So it backed up?

  • And so put it in reverse, I assume?

  • Right, in reverse and turned around, cut him off because they were still in the middle of the street. When he passed them, he had to get a better angle so he could get closer to them, I guess.

  • So yes, you are right. From my angle, the truck was there.

  • As we're looking at Image Number 29, which is again West Florissant to the right of the picture.

  • This would be the north side of the street?

  • Right, this side right here.

  • This side of the street is the north side of the street?

  • Right, uh-huh, that's the north side.

  • You are standing on the sidewalk on the north side of the street, that's the passenger side of the vehicle; is that right?

  • And your apartment is actually on the south side of the street?

  • No, it bends around. See how it bends around? The truck is pointing this way, I'm still looking down toward it, I'm still, I'm looking at the passenger side.

  • Okay. Now, from the point that you saw Michael Brown stop and he turned around, to the point where he eventually fell into the street, can you give me an idea, your best estimate of how far that was?

  • I'm only guessing from where the officer was standing the first time he stopped, about 30, 35 feet.

  • I might be off on that.

  • Because you understand also I'm way back here, this.

  • They are located right here. So to judge the distance from there to there, you know, I may be off from that.

  • Sure. But he runs in this direction, comes to about this corner and turns around. Do you recall when he turned around, did he turn around so that he faced your direction or did he turn the other way clockwise or counterclockwise or do you know?

  • He turned over left. So that would be what, counterclockwise, yeah.

  • So if you are the officer and I'm Mike Brown.

  • Spin to your left, turn around to your left, like that.

  • So as he turned towards the officer, his back went to you?

  • Now, you said in a previous statement that when he was looking down, it looked like he might have been looking at his hands.

  • Hands or side or whatever, he was trying to look, I said looking at his body to try to see where he was shot.

  • And you said previously that you could see something on his hand?

  • Yeah, it looked like he had something from the distance, we weren't quite sure. In fact, we kind of discussed that. I have told the officer it looks like he had something on his hand, but I can't give you 100 percent, I can't say for 100 percent that it was something.

  • Because the distance I'm from him, I can't really tell.

  • You know, that's what I thought.

  • As he turned around and he's turning around away from you to face the officer, then if he's on this corner and you are right here, you're seeing him primarily from behind?

  • Right, his back was turned. When he got to the edge of the driveway where your finger is, his back was turned to us and his back was facing our side of the street. He had stopped. This is the street, he stopped and he did like this. And he was turning around like this, you know, on the left side as you turn, that's the way he was turning.

  • He turned to face the officer, was the officer in the street actually?

  • Yes, he was at the rear of his vehicle at that time. He had to pull his gun out and he had it in his hand, you know, the defensive spot I guess, or whatever they said it is.

  • Michael Brown would have been looking back in this direction?

  • He was looking, okay. The officer was standing on this side out in the middle of the street right here. He was looking this direction, not that way.

  • This is the sidewalk right here.

  • Well, he is looking out this way because the officer's truck is still in the street. He's at the rear of the truck, he's at the rear of his vehicle.

  • And his vehicle was pretty much in the middle of the road, correct?

  • So the officer is in the middle of the road?

  • Practically, not in the middle, not in the middle, he's closer to the side, he's closer to the street, to the sidewalk.

  • On the south side?

  • Okay. So when Michael Brown turns, he's looking in this direction?

  • Yes, he's trying to see where the officer is.

  • So from that direction, and where your vantage point is, you can't really see his face at that point, correct?

  • No, just the side view.

  • Okay. And so you say, you said then at that point his hands go up?

  • And the officer is telling him to stop, but he moves towards the officer?

  • Okay. And if I were to tell you that from this corner of Caddiefield, I'm sorry, Canfield Drive and Copper Creek Court to where Michael Brown's feet were in the street, in other words, when he fell down, okay, and his body laid there.