The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everyone says good morning.)

  • It is October 6th. This is Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office. Present is Sheila Whirley with the prosecutor's office. All 12 grand jurors are present here today, as well as , the stenographer, who is taking down and recording matters that are going on today in the grand jury.

    It is about 8:39 a.m., and my understanding is we are going to go to about 2:30 today, correct? We have a witness that's here already this morning. Her name is

    We heard from her husband, last week.

    She wanted to come in first thing in the morning, so we're going to go ahead and have her testify first, and after her testimony, we will listen to the statement of and

    We didn't get a chance to do that last week.

    I have a witness scheduled to be here at 1:00 this afternoon. So her name is and she is the fiancee, or girlfriend, I can't remember, of If you recall,

    has already testified. So we'll probably listen to her statement in the morning if we have time. We probably should, and then at this point, we might be done for the day after testifies.

    Sheila and I have been talking about trying to schedule your time and make use of your time as best we can. We're running into the issue now that some of these witnesses are not very anxious to come in and meet with you. And so we're going to probably need to be searching for some people and giving them written invitations to appear before you.

    So I'm trying desperately to get your day scheduled tomorrow, so I know you are here until 6:00. We want to be able to keep you busy all day.

    And then we've got, I've got some witnesses lined up, and then on Thursday we have witnesses lined up too, but as of right now, I don't have necessarily the whole day filled. So we'll try our best. And it may be that we go ahead and call some other witnesses.

    We have lab people, we have police officers yet to testify who, obviously, would be easier for us to get here if we need them here.

    So, at this point then, we're ready to go. We're going to go ahead and call of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Good morning, Can you state your name for the reporter and spell it for the court reporter? A

  • And, , you're married to is that correct?

  • And how long have you and been married?

  • And are you, you're familiar with 's family?

  • Is that correct?

  • You know his brother, ?

  • That's my brother-in-law.

  • Your brother-in-law, and then lives

    is that correct?

  • And they live in Canfield Green Apartment Complex, correct?

  • And how long has lived in the Canfield Green Apartments?

  • Urn, I'm going to say maybe years. I'm not quite sure. was living there when and I married and met, so we've been actually years, together I'm quite sure years.

  • So as long as you've known ?

  • As long as I've known

  • Has been living with all that time as well?

  • Yes, off and on.

  • Off and on. And so do you recall Saturday, August 9th, of this year?

  • And in the morning, did anything happen that was noteworthy, was there anything special about the morning prior to you going to the apartment?

  • Actually, that was

  • So we went down there before we were preparing to go to the because I wanted to show what I got to wear to the class reunion.

  • Ma'am, the microphone that's in front of you doesn't amplify so you need to speak loud enough so that we can all hear you all the way back here. And please raise your hands if you can't hear her. Did you need her to repeat the last answer she gave anyone? Okay.

    So, you were going, you had a plan then that day to go to

    apartment in the afternoon; is that correct?

  • And so you proceeded to the apartment complex, about what time did you get there to the apartments?

  • It was before noon, about maybe 11:30, 11:45, somewhere along in there, I'm not quite sure of the exact time.

  • And who was in the car with you?

  • My husband and I.

  • What kind of vehicle were you in?

  • Who was driving?

  • So when you came into the complex, did you enter the complex off of West Florissant or did you come in the back way through the Northwinds Apartments?

  • Off of West Florissant.

  • Okay. So from West Florissant then you turn onto Canfield Drive and go through a residential area before getting to the complex; is that correct?

  • Correct, uh-huh.

  • And so we've got a map here that's marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25. And right here,

    is a laser pointer so you don't have to get up and point. You just press that button, hopefully, and that will work.

    So do you recognize the map here as familiar to you, the streets and the buildings as far as that being Canfield Green?

  • Yeah, pretty much.

  • Okay. If West Florissant is in this direction?

  • So you entered coming down this curve; is that right?

  • Now, this was a Saturday, sunny day, did you see people out and about?

  • Urn, yeah, I mean, not a lot of people, but the victim, as we came in off of Canfield, he and the other young man were walking in the street. And I said something to my husband in effect, why don't they just get on the sidewalk.

  • Okay. So when you were driving now, this direction is east, okay?

  • That's going east. So you were going east on Canfield Drive?

  • Can you use the laser pointer and show me where you first saw the two men that were walking in the street, where were they when you first saw them?

  • Right about right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. So as you came around the curve, you could see them walking in the street?

  • Just the two of them?

  • And when you say they were in the street, were they on the side, in the middle?

  • In the middle.

  • Okay. And so did you recognize either of those?

  • No, just two kids.

  • Two kids. Now, of course, we now know that one of those kids was Michael Brown. Having now known his identity, do you recall ever having met him?

  • Or seen him at the apartments?

  • No, we don't frequent Canfield. I mean, we go to visit or to take to where needs to go. I don't know anybody in Canfield except for

  • You don't socialize with people from the complex?

  • And so then the other boy was Dorian Johnson. That name doesn't ring a bell to you?

  • No, it does not.

  • Okay. So when you first saw them and in this area where you had pointed, which direction were they walking, were they walking east?

  • Into the complex.

  • Okay. So as you approach them, you saw their backs?

  • The back view of them, correct.

  • And so did you, I imagine you had to go around them or you went around them, correct?

  • Did you honk at them or , not A

  • Roll down the window and say anything to them?

  • Did they just appear to be walking?

  • They was just walking, I mean, they were doing what kids do. I mean, I live in , so kids don't walk on the sidewalk, they just don't. They have sidewalks but they don't walk on them.

    So, I mean, we just kind of chalked it up as them being kids not doing what they're supposed to be doing, I mean, they just do it.

  • Did you notice either of them if they had anything in their hands?

  • No, I don't recall.

  • Do you remember what either of them was wearing?

  • Urn, I'm going to say the victim had on a white T-shirt and khakis. The other young man had on a white T-shirt, I believe, and black pants or black jeans or something.

  • Okay. So the other one is the smaller one, I guess?

  • We'll call the victim, I know you know who eventually was shot is the bigger one, correct?

  • Correct, uh-huh.

  • And there was the smaller one?

  • Smaller kid, yes.

  • So you said the smaller one had on a black shirt and dark pants?

  • Dark pants, yeah, or dark jeans or something.

  • Okay. Anything else that you noticed about them that drew your attention?

  • No, I mean, like I said, it was a Saturday morning, I mean. They was just walking in the street and I made a note to my husband, why don't they just get on the sidewalk, and that was pretty much it. He didn't say anything, I didn't say anything, we didn't blow, he just kind of went around and did what we needed to do.

  • Okay. Were they walking shoulder to shoulder or one in front of the other, do you remember?

  • I mean, I guess side by side, you could say. I mean, just, I mean, when you see kids walking and there was only two of them, so it wasn't like it was a group of children, they were just walking down the street.

  • Okay. So after you pass by them, did you proceed to s apartment building?

  • Can you use the laser pointer and show on the map, do you see where apartment is?

  • Is this Caddiefield?

  • This is Caddiefield Road, this is also Caddiefield Road because it goes around like that.

  • Can I stand? This is hard for me to do because it's peripheral vision, I'm not used to looking at.

  • Correct, I understand. Do you know the number of unit?

  • I think it is this one right here.

  • Okay. So when you proceeded down Canfield Drive, you turned on Caddiefield, did you park in a parking space?

  • Right here. This is building, I believe, and would have parked right in here.


  • Okay. Now, did you have, do you recall if your windows were up or down?

  • That I don't remember. It was hot, I imagine that the air was on. It was hot that day.

  • So the windows were more than likely up.

  • As you drove down Canfield Drive, did you see any vehicles approaching you?

  • In your direction?

  • And so did you, after you parked your car, what's the first thing you noticed going on around here?

  • Well, once we were going up the steps, the police car came down going towards West Florissant, and I said to my husband, oh, he's going to stop them and tell them to get on the sidewalk.

    Urn, and we just kind of proceeded up the steps.

  • Now, earlier you had pointed to this one.

  • See, I'm not used to looking at these. So once we got on the landing, the police officer had stopped and said something to them.

  • Now, could you hear what he said?

  • No, I'm assuming, I'm not going to say he said, but from the activities that we saw from the porch, he stopped and the kids, the children stopped. I don't know what he said, I didn't hear that, we were too far away to hear. I'm just assuming that he said the same thing I had said to my husband, get on the sidewalk.

  • So now you, the stairs that go up to the apartment unit, those are exterior stairs, correct?

  • So you're going up the stairs and you're still outside and you can see what's going on?

  • What floor did live on?

  • There is only three floors. There is the basement and that would be the first floor and then the second floor, or you can say the second floor and then the third.

  • on the top level?

  • No, on the second. Well, there is a basement apartment and then apartment. So on, I guess you could say second floor, I don't know how they classify the floors.

  • So there's a unit above ?

  • Above , right.

  • All right. So when you're on the porch, this is like a decking area that's right off the front door for unit?

  • Uh-huh, a little patio out there.

  • And was out there?

  • When we walked up the steps?

  • No, he was inside the apartment.

  • So now you said, can you use the laser pointer and show me when you say you saw the officer stop and talk to the kids, where about were they when you saw that?

  • About right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. And so you see the officer stop?

  • Give me an idea, were we talking a matter of seconds or a minute or two that he paused and there was some kind of exchange between those kids?

  • It may have been maybe a minute.

  • And then what happened, what did you see happen?

  • He said whatever he said, then we heard two gunshots. He was still in the car, the boys were outside of the car. Well, before we heard the gunshots, I don't know what he said or what they said or what the conversation was, but the car was headed west on Caddiefield, on Canfield, and he, I guess, backed the car up and was at an angle.

  • Let me ask you this. The time when he paused that you thought that he might have been saying, hey, get on the sidewalk, or what you assumed he might have said, was that after he backed up?

  • No, it was before.

  • Okay. So he stops, pauses for a little bit, and then does the vehicle proceed west on Canfield then a little ways?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • And do the boys, what do the boys do?

  • They just were kind of standing there, and, like I said, it happened really fast, but the car was headed east, and then whatever conversation they had, the officer backed the car back, but it was at an angle and that's when we heard two gunshots inside the vehicle.

  • Okay. So when the officer, I think you said east, but you meant west, right?

  • He's going westbound and then he puts it in reverse, backs up, and he's at a little bit of an angle in the street?

  • Did you hear tires squealing or screeching or anything?

  • No, it wasn't like it was a chase or anything. I mean, he just, I mean, I don't know what happened, they exchanged words, I'm quite sure, and, you know, you just, I think he kind of whipped the car in reverse so it was at an angle.

  • Not a full complete angle, it was no longer straight.

  • When the first time the officer encountered the boys, were the boys on the driver's side of his car or on the passenger side?

  • All the way on the driver's side.

  • When he reversed it around to where it was at an angle, are the boys still on the driver's side?

  • Still on the driver's side.

  • So from your vantage point where you were standing, are you looking at the driver's side of the car or the passenger side?

  • Driver's side. Well, at the driver's side. We were on that side of the vehicle, I couldn't see what was on the other side of the car.

  • Okay. So then after he comes back, reverses and stops his car at an angle, what do you see happen between the boys and the police officer?

  • I didn't see, I just didn't see anything actually happen. We just kind of heard the two gunshots and I told my husband, oh, no, he's shooting, they're shooting.

  • At this point did you know who was shooting?

  • Okay. So you hear two gunshots?

  • Were they in close succession like boom, boom, or was there a pause between the two of them?

  • Well, more like a pop, pop.

  • Okay. And so did your attention, was your attention always on the car or were you

  • No, I mean, it was just, like I said, we were walking up the steps and then all of the sudden the car was coming down the street, the kids were coming down the street, and I assume that he did what we probably should have said and told them to get out of street and go on the sidewalk.

    I don't know what was said, I'm just assuming.

  • Okay. So after you hear the two gunshots.

  • What do you see happening at the officer's car?

  • That's when the victim started running away from the car and the person that was with him, he kind of disappeared. I don't know where, when the two gunshots went off, he kind of hunched and then he just disappeared.

    The victim kind of, when he came from on the driver's side, he kind of hid on the back side of the car and that's when he ran, I'm hoping I'm saying this right, there is a grassy area, he kind of ran over this way, he kind of ran this way.

  • Okay. So he's running now east down Canfield?

  • And can you tell at this point if he's injured?

  • Well, he ran this way and then he kind of got into the grassy area and he kind of stopped and looked down at his hands. I'm assuming there was blood, but he looked down at his hands and then he turned back around, he turned back around and started going back towards the police officer.

  • Okay. Let's stop now.

    After you saw, you heard the two gunshots, the victim starts running east on Canfield, the other guy kind of disappears?

  • What's the officer do?

  • Well, by that time he's out of the car and he's kind of, I guess, chasing the victim.

  • Okay. Now I'm going to stop you here because you said I guess, chasing?

  • He got out of the car.

  • You saw him get out?

  • It's all right. We make these assumptions all the time, you know, that's what we do when we observe things. Oh, it looks like he was doing this. But what is important is, you talk about what you saw.

    So the officer gets out of his vehicle. I guess, I'm assuming, from the driver's side?

  • Yes, from the driver's side.

  • And so at that point, could you see if he had a gun?

  • Yes, he had his gun.

  • And could you see what he was doing with the gun or where his gun was?

  • When he got out of the vehicle, he did get out with his gun drawn.

  • And as I said, the victim, he ran towards this grassy area, he stopped and he looked down at his hands and then he proceeded to come back towards the officer.

    By the time the officer was out of his car, I'm going to say he was running with his gun drawn.

  • Okay. When you say his gun drawn, I'm going to

  • I could see the gun.

  • That's out of the holster is what it means to me?

  • But there's, was it down at his side, was he running like this? (indicating)

  • Was running like this? (indicating)

  • He had both his hands on the gun.

  • And he was running swiftly or walking fast towards the victim.

  • Okay. And so did you ever observe or hear the officer firing, as he was running after the victim?

  • Yes, he did.

  • How many shots did you hear as he was moving towards the victim?

  • I'm going to say he fired maybe three to four shots as they were, I guess, walking kind of towards each other.

  • Okay. Now, let me stop you then. There is a lot going on in here and, obviously, you know, I hate to say that we have to pick this apart, but we really do.

    So as you see him, he's got his gun drawn and he has both hands on it and it's pointed out in front of him, you demonstrated kind of out with your arms straight in front of you and he's moving towards the victim.

  • The victim, you said, stops in this area here, kind of in the grassy area, so he's not on the street any more?

  • And then he stops and you said that he looks at his hands?

  • Can you stand up and show the grand jurors, because I know you made a motion a couple of times. Show them what he looked like.

  • He looked down like this and, I think, I'm going to say it was his right hand, he looked at his hand and then he started walking back towards the police officer. (indicating)

  • Okay. So from your vantage point if he's over here, when he stops, he's somewhat facing your direction, would that be fair to say?

  • He was running and he stopped, he looked down and he turned around like this.

  • Could you see anything in his hands?

  • Okay. So you can go ahead and sit. So did the officer fire his weapon at any time other than in the car, did he fire his weapon before the victim turned around?

  • Okay. So the victim stops, looks down at his hands?

  • And then turns around. At this point, does the officer fire?

  • Yes. Well, he turned around like this and he started moving towards the cop.

  • And then he is standing there, and he just proceeded to shoot.

  • Could you hear either the officer or the victim say anything?

  • So when you saw Mike, well, the victim, when you saw him move toward the officer, can you describe his pace, do you understand what I mean by that?

  • I mean, he wasn't running, he just, to me it was slow motion, so he turned around, looked down at his hands.

  • Let me ask you some questions just to help you out through this, okay.

    So from the time the victim turns around, is the officer still moving toward him or has the officer stopped?

  • He'd stopped?

  • Are you good at guessing or judging distances?

  • All right. So let me ask you this --

  • He was not this close to him.

  • This is too close?

  • All right. Tell me when you think.

  • About right there.

  • Okay. So what do you want to guess that to be 20 feet, close to 20 feet. And so after the victim stops and turns around, when he moves in the direction toward the officer, does the officer move?

  • Not really, no.

  • Okay. So he stays basically in the spot where he had stopped?

  • And how close then does the victim get to the officer?

  • He just kept walking.

  • What were his hands doing as he's walking?

  • I'm sorry. He is walking like this and he kept walking, and I asked my husband, why won't he stop.

  • Were you or your husband or anyone else that you can hear yelling anything, that you recall, saying to your husband, why won't he stop?

  • Why won't he stop. I asked why does he keep shooting him.

  • So I can be clear about this, the officer did not shoot at him while he was running away from him?

  • He turns around and starts walking back to the officer, is that when the officer starts shooting?

  • He just, I mean, he was walking back towards him and he started, he started shooting. He just kept shooting, he just kept shooting. And I asked my husband why is he, why won't that boy stop.

  • Do you recall hearing the gunshots in your mind, can you hear them?

  • (Nods head.)

  • Was there just one succession of gunshots or were there shots, then a pause and then more shots?

  • He shot like maybe three or four times, and he stopped. And then he just started shooting again.

  • When he shot three or four times, did Michael Brown go down to the ground at that point?

  • He was still standing?

  • And so I asked my husband, well, maybe he doesn't have real bullets, maybe they are rubber bullets, he's not stopping, why doesn't he stop shooting.

    And, of course, he couldn't answer that because he doesn't know.

  • And so after he shot three or four times, and then the victim continues to walk toward the officer, he fires again, the officer shoots again, about how many times for this?

  • I'm going to say three times and then that's when he collapsed, he just collapsed to the ground.

  • Was he in the street or on the grass?

  • By this time he was in the street.

  • Okay. And when he fell to the ground, did he fall on his back, on his front?

  • He fell facedown.

  • Okay. Did you ever see him fall to his knees?

  • (Shakes head.)

  • So he just --

  • He just kind of toppled over.

  • he went straight down. And did the officer continue to fire after he fell on the ground?

  • No, he just kind of stopped and kind of froze and just looked.

  • Did you see the officer approach his body?

  • He didn't touch him.

  • Okay. And at this point, are there any other police vehicles in the area at this point?

  • At this time there was a white car, I don't know what kind of car it was, a white car kind of moved around the police car and then by that time other cars started to arrive.

  • The white car, did it look like a police car or just a white car?

  • No, I think it was just a white car on the street.

  • Before it moved around the police officer, where it had it been?

  • I don't know, I guess they were coming down the street, but --and they just kind of went around.

  • The police car.

  • And so was that car moving west on Canfield then? Did you see that car leave the area then or did it just park over here?

  • I think it just parked over there.

  • Okay. What about the shorter kid, did you ever see him again?

  • After Michael Brown was down on the ground, did you ever see anyone move his body before it was eventually removed from the seen?

  • What about the officer's vehicle, did you ever see the officer get back in his vehicle?

  • Did you continue to watch after this or did you go inside?

  • No, we were standing there and, urn, I just said, I told my husband, he just killed that baby.

  • I can't hear, I'm sorry.

  • I'm sorry. After that all happened, I just said, I told my husband I said, he just killed him, he just killed that baby. By that time

    came outside and, of course, years old, just try to tell to go back in the house.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Was your

  • was inside her apartment. There is a patio door, was kind of standing inside the patio door.

  • Had seen some of it, was upset?

  • And how about you, you were upset at this point?

  • Yeah, because I had never witnessed anything like that. So, of course, there are a lot of questions to why. I mean, I have a son, I have a

    son, and they could of -(cid:173)

  • Do you need to take a break?

  • (Shakes head.)

  • You're doing all right. Just breathe, okay. Take a little water.

    What's your son's first name?

  • This is why issues like this is why we don't frequent my

    's. There is a lot of things going on down there and my son does not go down there unless he's with us. I have a child and that could have been my son, and so that is why it is hard for me.

  • Okay. When you saw the victim turn around and walk toward the officer, and you had demonstrated kind of that his hands were in the same position?

  • And I'm going to describe this, you tell me if I'm describing it accurately, but his hands are, his fingers are pointed toward the ground?

  • His palms are facing forward?

  • And his arms are slightly bent at the elbows, but to his side?

  • Is that accurate?

  • Did his hands, when he turned around, did his hands stay in that position?

  • Pretty much.

  • And as he walked toward the officer?

  • They stayed.

  • Did they ever go up?

  • You never saw them go up like this?


  • What about, did you ever see his hands go towards his side or like was he ever --

  • --feeling on his abdomen like for?

  • Never saw that?

  • (Shakes head.) He had on a white T-shirt and khaki pants or shorts. He didn't have a hoodie on like most of the kids, he didn't have a hoodie on or anything where he could have did anything like that.

  • Okay. And never heard the officer or him say anything?

  • Okay. Urn, did, when he was walking toward the officer, did you feel, in your opinion, was that in a threatening manner?

  • No, he wasn't. He didn't have his hands up fist ball or anything of that nature. I think he was stunned, honestly. He just turned around and he just, like I said, he turned around and he looked at his hand and he turned around and he did like this and he kept walking, he just kept walking toward the officer, he didn't stop.

    I asked my husband, why don't he just stop, why don't he just be still, why don't he just stop, and he didn't.

  • Did you ever see the officer get on his radio or talk into a radio, either while he was on the street or back at his car?

  • At some point you saw other policemen come?

  • (Nods head.)

  • Did you see them taping off the scene, putting tape up?

  • Did any of those officers move the victim's body?

  • Did any of those officers move Darren Wilson, the officer who was involved in the shooting, his name is Darren Wilson, I don't know if you knew that, but did you see anybody move Darren Wilson's vehicle?

  • What kind of car was Darren Wilson driving?

  • It's an SUV, I don't know if it is a Blazer, I don't know it is just the regular Ferguson SUV. I don't know, I'm not good at cars, I don't know.

  • Was it clearly marked as a police vehicle?

  • Uh-huh, yeah. It had Ferguson Police Department on the side in writing.

  • Did you ever notice, were the lights on?

  • The light bar on top of the car or anything?

  • What about a siren or one of those squawkers, did you here any whoop, or anything like that?

  • Does anybody have any questions?

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Tell me what you meant by things are going on at Canfield Apartments where you won't allow your son to go there without you?

  • It is just not an area that I want him in. I mean, it's just a lot of things that go on just, it's not a safe environment.

  • You mean like the other folks that live there?

  • Or the police?

  • Just the complex in general. I just, it is not safe, it is not somewhere I want him.

  • Okay. Can you tell me where you were on the map when the police first encountered Mike Brown Michael and Dorian Johnson?

  • We were walking up the steps, this little patio, porch.

  • You were on porch?

  • Uh-huh. And then this is where apartment sits.

  • So were you watching them when the police encountered them or were you walking to the apartment?

  • It is open, so you can see whatever is going on on Canfield.

  • And it had your attention because it was the police?

  • And a couple kids in the middle of the street?

  • Okay. Now, you said that the police, show me here on the map where you were when the police, after Michael Brown ran from the car, where were you when the police first started firing?

  • Right here. We hadn't gone into the apartment.

  • You were still outside?

  • And you were, of course, watching at this point?

  • And you have good vision?

  • Yes, ma'am. And I have contacts, I'm over , yeah, bifocals, actually, yeah.

  • You could see clearly, there was no impairment for you to see?

  • Nothing wrong with my vision, no.

  • Well, I guess you already told us, when Michael Brown and the officer, I guess, he was facing the officer and the officer first started shooting you said about 20 feet?

  • Approximately.

  • How far apart they were?

  • Did you ever see Michael Brown charging at the officer?

  • I mean, he turned around, and I'm assuming that he was just stunned, that's how it appeared to me. That he looked down at his hands and he saw blood. He turned around and he just started walking back towards the officer.

  • Did it appear that he was surrendering?

  • I guess you could say that.

  • You were there?

  • I assumed that that's what he was doing, but I couldn't hear words being, between the two people because I don't recall them saying anything, I don't recall.

  • I'm sorry, I'm trying not to talk at the same time. Did it seem like they were talking or words were being exchanged, even though you couldn't hear them?

  • I really can't say.

  • To be perfectly honest, I can't say. I would assume and I would hope, but I can't say.

  • Where did you see Michael Brown's body fall after the last shooting?

  • He was in the street. I want to say maybe about right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. It looks like to you it is right around Copper Creek Court?

  • And Canfield Drive?

  • Was it like east of the intersection? I'm sorry, west of the intersection?

  • He was going back towards the police car.

  • Okay. Which was headed west initially?

  • West, uh-huh.

  • So west of the intersection. In your opinion, did it appear necessary for the officer to shoot him that last time?

  • Because he had stopped, I mean, he was kind of standing there and he just started boom, boom, boom, boom, and he just fell.

  • Okay. So when you said he had stopped?

  • He was just standing there, he wasn't moving, he wasn't running, he wasn't doing anything.

  • So the last round of shots, Michael Brown was not even walking towards the officer?

  • No. He walked and then it was like as he was shooting, he just started falling like a domino, he just kind of fell.

  • Okay. So explain to me, I don't want to be confused. Why you didn't think it was necessary for him to shoot those last rounds of shots at Michael Brown?

  • I just think it was too much. I mean, that's just me being a mother, this being a child, he was not charging at him, he did not have a weapon that I could see, I mean, I guess because these are the question that I asked my husband.

  • I asked him whatever happened to a warning shot, whatever happened to shooting in the ankle or somewhere just to stop him, but he just kept going.

  • All right, thank you. Any questions?

  • Let me ask a couple more questions,

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) When you first saw them at the car, after the officer had backed up, did you see any kind of confrontation at the car?

  • I don't know what happened inside the vehicle when the first two shots went off.

  • I don't know what was said, I don't know.

  • So at this point Michael Brown, or the victim, is standing outside the driver's window or driver's door, right?

  • And was he close to the vehicle?

  • Like right here. (indicating)

  • And you are motioning?

  • It is about an arm's length?

  • Did you notice if any part of his body was inside the vehicle, could you tell?

  • It wasn't or you couldn't tell?

  • I couldn't tell.

  • Okay. So you don't know what was going on between the officer and the victim at the vehicle except that they were up close within?

  • In proximity.

  • Close proximity. And then you heard two gunshots?

  • And it was after the second gunshot that

  • After the first gunshot, did Michael Brown or the victim remain at the driver's window?

  • Or did he back away from the car?

  • The shots were like consecutive. It was like boom, boom. I'm like, oh, no, they're shooting. And I sat there because I didn't know who was shooting. And that's when he backed away from the car and started to run, and that's when the officer got out of the car to run after him.

  • Questions?

    When you said it is not a safe area, if I could get just a little bit more clarification. This is not a safe area. Is there gang activity in the area that you know?

  • Honestly, I don't, I don't know. I just don't want my child there. When I say that, it is just that my son is years old, he's , he's a good kid. Things happen, police are always down there. I don't know what goes on. I honestly don't go down there at night. So when I say I don't want my child there, he abides by what I tell him and he goes places where I feel he is going to be safe.

  • I understand.

  • I understand that's 's home, I'm not comfortable with him being I have a daughter, and knows they can come and take out during the day, but it is just too much, it is too much activity, whether it is the residents or police or whatever, I don't want him there. And as a mother, he does what I tell him to do. So it has nothing to do with that. My mother is a business owner, I don't like for him to go where her business is at night because he's This is my way of protecting my child as much as I can protect him.

  • When I say go somewhere, he don't go. He's he drives, he's a good student, but when he leaves my house and he's going somewhere, he needs to give me a phone call.

  • And that's what I expect him to do. When he's on his way home, he needs to give me a phone call.

  • But that's my way, that's our way of protecting him as much as I possibly can. I don't know what happens there because I don't live there.

  • But I don't want him there because it is too much police activity, there is too many people many walking up and down the streets all the time, and I don't know what they do there because I don't live there, but I don't want either one of my kids there. I'm going to tell you how I feel and my husband.

  • If I can ask another question being a mother, like you said, of a

    Do you also advise him to respect

  • --law officers?

  • Every time I tell him what to do and he even encountered being stopped by a police officer and it scared him to death because he was not doing anything, this is when he first learned how to drive. He was going to my aunt's house, it was dark and I don't know if you all are familiar with Parker Road, there are no lights on Parker, he had his high beams on. The police officer pulled him over and he stopped, he was not disrespectful, he was not belligerent, he pulled out his insurance, his license and the police officer told him, young man, I'm just giving you a warning, turn your high beams off. And my child was so afraid, the officer wanted to know if he needed us to come and pick him up. So he respects the authority, however, I don't want him to be in a situation where he has to second guess anything that my husband and I have told him about, what he's supposed to do when he's encountered by a person of authority. My child has a 3.5 GPA. He's never been suspended, he's never been in trouble, but it is always that one incident. When he leaves the house, he's only to have two people in his car outside of his sister. I mean, I mean, I was a teenager, my husband was as well, but we try to train him and teach him to do things that he's supposed to do. But that's not always the case. And when you have other people in your car, you don't know what they have on them. So we've given him as much guidance as we possibly can. Now whether or not he uses it when he walks out the door, that's another story.

  • just to clarify, the officer that pulled over your son, was he a Ferguson officer?

  • No, he was a county.

  • Okay. And that encounter went okay?

  • He was fine, it just scared him to death.

  • Maybe that's a good thing, right.

  • I mean, when he got in the house, he was trembling. I mean, he was shaking, and we were like what is wrong with you. He is like, I got stopped. I'm like, okay. Calm down, but because he knows he has to respect authority. And he just, but I didn't do anything. Which I understand that, but he had his high beams on on a dark road and he could have blinded the other driver.

    And, again, like I said, he was just learning how to drive. It was dark, he figured I turn on the high beams and I will be okay.

  • But the officer wasn't belligerent with your son?

  • And just, again, I didn't ask you to make sure, but do you know any Ferguson police officers?

  • Urn, I don't think he's a Ferguson police officer. One of the coaches for my kids track team, I can't think of the man's name, he was a Ferguson police officer and I believe he's retired.

  • Okay. Did you know Darren Wilson?

  • Any other questions?

    If you could, take me back to the time when Michael Brown ran into the grassy area as you said, is turning around?

  • Before he was shot at by the police officer after running?

  • And started moving back towards the officers with his hands down like this, both you and have both kind of said that there was a sense of frustration with you why Michael Brown was still moving forward a little bit, sounds like you were both a little frustrated with that. Can you describe that a little?

  • I didn't understand why he just didn't stop and maybe get on his knees, just stop moving period. I just didn't understand why he kept going. I mean, I don't know if his parents have talked to him about ten and two and doing certain things when you are stopped. So, yes, I was frustrated.

  • I don't honestly think he has been taught what to do and that's just my personal opinion. Again, as I say, I have a son, and so you know, there is certain things that you do and don't do when you are approached by authority. And he just, he just should have stopped. He just should have stopped.

  • Do you have any idea or logical guess as to how much distance he covered moving back towards the officer, was it a few steps, was it ten steps?

  • No, it was probably maybe ten steps.

  • He was close enough to, I think reassure the officer that he was not a threat, that's my--

  • He was close enough where he wasn't a threat. I think when he turned around and his hands are down, I think the officer should have said okay, I mean, I don't know, I don't know what was going through his mind. I don't know what was going through the victim's mind, but again, I was frustrated because he just, I mean, he just should have stopped and I guess, I don't know, he should have did something different than just keep on moving. Thank you.

  • The officer, was he moving at that time as Michael Brown was approaching him or maybe when he paused between the two series of shots or at any time?

  • Thank you.

    The officer, was

  • He was standing still.

  • Was the officer moving towards Michael, away from Michael or standing still?

  • He was standing still.

  • Through all the shots he was just standing still?

  • Uh-huh. Okay. Thank you.

  • I guess at the time when he turned around and he had his hands like this? (indicating)

  • Okay. Thank you.

    I guess

  • You said that, you could see both of his hands?

  • In your opinion, could the police officer see both of his hands?

  • Yeah, honestly, yeah, I believe so. Thank you.

  • Could you see Michael Brown's face or was his back to you when he had his hands like? (indicating)

  • Thank you.

    Could you see

  • When he turned around this way, it was his back and then he was looking this way, it was still his back, but you could see his hands out to his side.

  • And you say he wasn't charging, he was just moving forward?

  • I want to say it is almost as if you tell somebody to come here and they're coming, but he just kept walking, he just kept going, he just didn't stop. Even today, I don't know why, I don't understand that and when it was all going on I asked my husband why won't that child just stop.

  • I understand. This question is hard for me to ask, okay. This one you said that in your opinion because you're a mother, you felt like it was too much, too many shots, I'm going to ask you if it was your husband or child that was the officer, would you feel the same way?

  • Yes, I would.

  • Okay. Thank you.

  • I have to be perfectly honest, this has changed his life, it has changed this child's family's life, everybody's life and it went from 0 to 100. And honestly, I think it was just something that could have been thought through a little bit more because his life has changed, no matter what happens, both of them. It has changed a lot of lives.

  • I do, I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly. You said the last shots were fired, the ones that you feel were excessive, Michael Brown was not walking towards the officer at that time, he had stopped?

  • No. Okay. Thank you.

  • Just one clarification. Were there any other cars besides the white car that you saw that could have been blocking the police officer where he had to walk around to come and show his full body?

  • Okay. Thank you.

    Just one

  • Any other questions?

    At any time did you see Michael Brown reach under his shirt?

  • No, I did not.

  • All right. This will conclude the testimony of Thank you.

    (End of the testimony of . )

  • It is October 6th, it is 9:47. We just had a midmorning break. This is Kathi Alizadeh, present also is Sheila Whirley and all 12 grand jurors, as well as the court reporter. We will be playing a couple of recorded statements.

    I thought, and Sheila and I decided, we talked, probably make more sense to play

    s statement first since she just testified and be fresh in your mind. And the first statement is about, well, it is 54 minutes and 32 seconds. It is just under an hour.

    So we will start that, we will cease the audio recording while the statement is playing. And then at the conclusion of that statement, we will play the statement of , which is considerably shorter. Although I don't know how short, I have to find out, all right. So at this time we'll cease the audio recording and begin playing the statement. While the statement is playing, I will pass around Grand Jury Exhibit Number 32.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 32 marked for identification.)

  • Which is a map that

    used during her statement and she made some drawings and labeled some things as the statement is being played. It might be helpful for you to be able to have seen this.

  • Her recording, just for the record, is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24.

    (Interview of is being played at this time.)

  • It is 10:44 a.m. here and so I have passed around Grand Jury Exhibit Number 32. This exhibit, as well as all the others that we've seen and used will be available to you if you want to see it again or at the conclusion of all the evidence, will be made available to all of you again.

    We had a change of plans today. The witness for this afternoon left me a message needing to reschedule, so I have now gotten ahold of the firearms examiner who is going to come over at 1:00 or whenever you are done with your lunch break. So he will give his testimony after lunch. I'm going to try to get somebody else. He won't take an hour and a half, but I will try to get another police officer or someone else to come in to round out the rest of the afternoon.

    And as of right now, I've got to see what's going on outside of this room. If you want to take a quick break since we will start back up with listening to more statements.


  • It is 10:54, this is Kathi Alizadeh. Sheila Whirley is not in the room, she's just outside. All 12 grand jurors are present, as is , the stenographer, and right now Judge

    asked her to come over and she needs to address you as a group. There won't be any individual questioning, but she's going to talk to you as a group right now, all right.

    Neither Sheila nor I will be in the room when she's here to talk to you.

    THE COURT: It is Monday, October 6th, and I'm back in front of you mainly because I'm always thinking about you and I have a little bit of information that I want to share with you. And I hope that what I'm here to say will also guide you.

    Urn, I received some information that some of you, and by the way, I have no names, and you are not at the principal's office right now, you have not been called to the principal's office. I want to assure you about that, but some of you may have done some independent investigation or some research, and I'm here to caution you about that.

    Your job, as you know, when I told you when you started here will be to listen to the evidence that you're going to hear and then at some point, you're going to be deliberating.

    It's very important that you all come to deliberate, that you are all considering the same evidence. You will each have thoughts about the evidence you've heard, you will each have opinions, but the very important thing to give the decision you make credibility and value is that you are all considering the same information and evidence.

    And so I'm here to caution you do not go out and do independent research and investigation. If there is something you want, you tell the prosecutors. They will go and get that for you. And if they can't get it for you, they'll tell you why they can't get it.

    Ask for anything you think you need to reach the decision you're going to be reaching, and I can't caution you enough about that.

    I think of you often and I think of you because, and I told you this before, I told you at the beginning and I still tell you this, you are the face of our community. This decision is important, you are good people. You collectively are our St. Louis County. We have St. Louis County, that's our community here.

    You are, you are the face of our community. Your decision will be the decision of the community because you good people have listened to all of this evidence and then reached your decision.

    The decision you reach will be thoughtful, it will be thorough, and it will be based on as much evidence as you ask for and as can be brought to you.

    And just so you are deliberating and talking back and forth, just so you all know, you're thinking about the same evidence. That's why it is so important that you not do this independent research, independent investigation.

    So I'm going to ask you to please, if there's something you have, it has to be shared collectively. I'm going to ask you from this point forward, do not go forward and do anything independent. Ask the prosecutors for it.

    I guess I've stated what I really wanted to state, but I have such faith in you. I think you, no matter what the decision is, your decision is going to be the result of a well thought out and conscientious approach to considering it. That's what is provided for in the law. You're going through a very hard task at this time.

    But when you go through that task, you should know at the end of the day, and I will know at the end of the day, you have done everything that is provided for under the law in our justice system when grand juries sit, and you have done everything that has been asked of you as a citizen of St. Louis County.

    So my caution to you is if there is anything you want, you tell these prosecutors, they will get you that information. And if they can't, they will tell you why, ask them why. You are certainly free to do that.

    But keep yourself safe too. I respect the law and I follow the law and I'm following the law right through to the very end. And, urn, I will answer questions that people have because people are free to ask questions in our justice system.

    If the press comes to me and ask me questions, I am going to follow the law in that regard. I believe I have followed the law up to this point with regard to any questions from the media, I will continue to do that, but when you do independent investigation, I worry that you keep, that you may expose yourself to dangerous situations, and you may create a situation where people start talking about you and reporting they've seen this, they've seen that, and it may lead to more problems than we could ever imagine.

    So please keep your research and investigation here in this room, please keep yourselves safe and please know that you are the very good people of St. Louis County, we are lucky to have in St. Louis County doing this very hard work. Your collective decision when you reach it will be the decision, no matter what it is. I don't know what it is, I'm pretty darn sure you don't know what it is at this point.

    That is the decision that our justice system has thought about, provided for in the laws, and will guide you ultimately to making your decision and decide what the next step will be under our justice system.

    So it is nice seeing you once again. Thank you for your very hard work. That's all I wanted to say, thank you.

    (End of Judge 's statement.)

  • All right. It is 11:04 a.m. on October 6th. This is Kathi Alizadeh, present also is Sheila Whirley, all 12 grand jurors are present as is , the court reporter. We are next going to play a taped statement from

    If you recall, he's already testified, I think, last Thursday. We'll hand out the transcripts. And then as usual, we will have pause the recording while the recorded statement is being played and then we'll resume.

    I don't have, if there is a map, I don't have it. So I will have to, they talk about doing a map in the statement and I don't remember if they do. If they have a map, then I'll have to get that for you this afternoon.

    So pause the recording now, we're going to play from State's Exhibit Number, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24, which is the disc that contains witness statements, including the statement of

    (Interview of is being played at this time.)

  • It is 11:15, we just finished listening to the recorded statement of

    Uh, I'm now going to pass out some transcripts and we will listen to the recorded statement of Her statement is also being played on a disc, from a disc that is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24. And is going to pause the audio recording while the statement is being played.

    (Interview of is being played at this time.)

  • And I believe, although the officer didn't specify, that he starts out in the interview and he says that he is at with , I believe that that is where she lives, which on the map is right here, Building Number Okay.

    And I will also let you know that we have a map that has been put together for you that has the dots on it of every one of the witnesses who are testifying and you will have a legend that will have the number of the witness and then the name.

    So eventually when all the witnesses are done testifying, we'll have that and you will be able to go back and say this is where that girl was, this is where that guy was and so forth.

    So it will kind of help to pull all of that together, but right now since we haven't heard from all the witnesses and the map is already marked with all the witnesses, we are going to wait until we get all of those people on to testify. So you don't have to worry about trying to remember so much as far as where everybody was because there will be a map given to you that kind of lays that out.

    Urn, also, there is a recorded statement of that was done on September 30th, by the FBI. And I just got that transcript this weekend, and I haven't got the actual recording yet, but I did talk to the agents this weekend and I'm hoping that they're going to drop off this recording, as well as some other recordings this morning. So I will check during the lunch hour and if I have that recording, then we will listen to that after the lunch hour.

    is scheduled first thing in the morning. If we don't get on that this afternoon, we will try to listen to that before she testifies in the morning, okay?

    And so we'll just skip that second statement of for now, and the next statement that I'm going to play is a statement of

    She's also scheduled to testify tomorrow. And if you recall, is the fiancee of whose already testified. I'm going to pass out, obviously, not obviously, but her statement is very brief as well.

    (Interview of was played at this time.)

  • It is 11:28. We just finished playing a recorded statement of , which was played on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24.

    At this time, unfortunately, I don't have anything scheduled, although I do have a witness scheduled for tomorrow. I don't have transcripts printed up yet, let me see if it is on there.

    You want to see how long that statement is?

    If you want to hang tight, I can try to print out a ten minute statement that will get us closer to the lunch hour. Hopefully it will just take me really quick.

  • And, , if we want to go ahead and pause the audio recording and then we can step out while I'm printing these up. And if you guys want to talk, you are able to do that while we are out of the room, okay.


  • It is October 6th, 2014, it is 11:36. This is Kathi Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is present, as well as all 12 grand jurors and the court reporter. So we took a brief break while I printed up some transcripts. So we're next going to play for you a recorded statement from a witness whose name is , and I believe that's

    Who is, he's a juvenile. I can't remember how old he is. I am hoping he is going to be able to testify tomorrow, that's the plan. We will go ahead and listen to his statement now and get that out of the way.

    His statement is about ten minutes long I think, you said Sheila? And it is also contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24.

    (Interview of is being played at this time.)

  • All right. It is 11:48, this concluded the playing of the recorded statement done on August 9th, 2014 of And so at this time we'll go ahead and begin our lunch break. I think the lunch is supposed to be delivered at noon. So if you all want to just take a break and use the restroom and whatever, or chat amongst yourselves. And then when the food gets here, we'll give, you know, a good amount of time to eat and then you'll just let us know when you are ready to start up after you are eating your lunch.

    The next witness I hope is going to be here, he's going to be here like a quarter after noon that is for me to talk to him. We should be able to get going as soon as you're ready. All right. So we'll conclude for the morning.

    (Lunch recess taken)

  • This is Kathi Alizadeh. It is October 6th at 12:58 p.m. I'm present, as well as Sheila Whirley of the prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors are present. We're going to begin the afternoon session. We are going until about 2:30 today. I have had to, we had a witness cancel, so I did my best to get a couple of people in here to make good use of your time for this afternoon.

    So the first witness you are going to hear from is And then on his way is another detective, his name is So hopefully we'll get the two of them in. I apologize if it is not 2:30, then you guys are going to break early today and go on your way because I don't think I can get anybody else in this afternoon.

    So if the witness now would be sworn. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Could you please state your name and spell it for the court reporter? A

  • Urn, can you please tell me how you're employed?

  • I am a police officer with St. Louis County Police Department, assigned as a firearm and tool mark examiner in the crime laboratory.

  • And so you originally received your training to be a police officer; is that right?

  • When did you become a police officer?

  • In early, I'm sorry, 1991. I became an officer commissioned and hired by St. Louis County and have not worked for any other departments.

  • So as a police officer after your graduation from the academy and during your training with the academy, you learned how to use firearms, correct?

  • And then at some point you went from being a uniformed officer to having this specialized area of tool marks and firearms examiner, correct?

  • That's correct.

  • So can you explain for the jurors, first of all, when is it that you went and got your training for that?

  • After four and a half years on patrol, I went into the Crime Scene Unit and was in the Crime Scene Unit for six and a half years.

    So approximately 2002 I was assigned in the crime laboratory, trained under other qualified firearm examiners, both on the job and through available training outside the laboratory by firearm manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, ATF training opportunities, FBI training opportunities and so forth. Completed that training in 2004 and have been an examiner ever since, even becoming the supervisor of the section, I think, two and half, almost three years ago now.

  • So you began in the firearms lab in 2002 you said?

  • So there's, you had approximately two years of training before becoming a firearms examiner?

  • A qualified examiner, yes.

  • Now, to be a qualified examiner, do you have to have any type of certification or qualification?

  • There are opportunities for certification through an international organization. They're not required, only a small percentage of examiners take that opportunity and I have not, so I am not certified through them, but I have been qualified both in state and federal courts numerous times as the expert witness.

  • So for approximately ten years you've been working solely and strictly as a tool marks and firearms examiner for St. Louis County Police Department?

  • That's correct.

  • And can you give me an estimate of how many times you have testified as an expert witness in that area in state and federal courts?

  • I wish I had counted them. Truthfully my best estimate would be dozens, not 50, but more than 25.

  • Okay. And in those cases, have you been qualified to testify as an expert in the field of tool marks and firearms examination?

  • So can you explain for the jurors, obviously, firearms and tool marks are two different types of things you might be looking at in this case?

  • The investigation into the shooting of Michael Brown. You were looking at firearms and ballistic materials; is that correct?

  • Okay. So while it might be very interesting to talk about tool marks and what you do with them, let's skip that part of your expertise and we'll go straight to the firearms portion of it, is that all right?

  • Now, in the laboratory setting at St. Louis County Police Department Crime Laboratory, are evidence items submitted to you for you to examine and test?

  • Yes, they are.

  • And in this particular case, which is in relation to St. Louis County Police Department's Complaint Number 14-43984, were there items submitted to you for you to examine and test?

  • So first off, let's talk about a weapon. Was there a weapon submitted to you for you to test and examine?

  • There was a firearm submitted for my examination, yes.

  • And I say weapon, I guess that's pretty all inclusive. The weapon in particular is a firearm, correct?

  • And you tested that weapon and compared it to some other materials that have been submitted to you?

  • That's correct.

  • Did you put your conclusions in a report that you then gave to me?

  • All right. And I'm going to show you Grand Jury Exhibit Number 33.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 33 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Is that a copy of a report you made in this case?

  • I'm going to pass this around so everybody can have a copy of that as well. So Officer

    when you are submitted, in this case, the firearm, what do you do to begin your examination?

  • In this particular case, after opening the package to observe the weapon, firearm, I discovered that it had what appeared to be blood on it. In the interest of safety for myself and others that might handle this firearm after me, I cleaned it with bleach to kill any biohazards and remove that apparent blood from the firearm.

  • Okay. So let's back up now. This weapon was submitted to you by Detective is that correct?

  • The seizing detective was From him it went to a secure vault that they have access to for dropping off evidence after hours. That vault is then accessed by Property Control Unit, and in this case , who is the supervisor of the Property Control Unit. Removed it from that vault and brought it to me.

  • So what day did you receive that firearm?

  • October 11th of 2014. I'm sorry, did I say October? I meant August, I'm sorry.

  • That would have been a Monday, correct, or maybe. If the 9th was a Saturday, that would make the 11th a Monday?

  • That sounds correct.

  • Can you describe how this weapon, this firearm was packaged and how you first saw it?

  • It was packaged in a box that we have specifically on our department for the storage of firearms and it is sealed with evidence tamperproof tape. In other words, if the tape is torn to open the package, you can tell by the tearing of the tape.

    And it is also itemized on an evidence receipt that accompanies that box. So its submission has some of the case information and the contents of the box listed thereon.

  • Now, when you received the box, did you examine it to determine whether or not the tape that sealed the box had been tampered with?

  • It was sealed when I received it.

  • Had you noticed, or in any case when you noticed that there has been a tear in the evidence tape, would you notify the seizing detective immediately?

  • Okay. So in this case, it appeared to still be intact, correct?

  • Was there anything unusual about the way it was packaged?

  • Not to my recollection.

  • Now, there has been testimony from Detective , and I'm just going to ask you to take my word on this, that when he first found the weapon or first got the weapon I'll say, that it had been packaged, so to speak. And he described to the jurors the way that was.

    The weapon had been placed in like an evidence envelope and the magazine and live round had been removed from the weapon and the slide had been locked in its back position. Did you see any evidence envelope with the box that you opened up, was there anything like that in there?

  • Truthfully, I don't recall, however, that's not unusual. So the answer to your earlier question anything unusual, no, because it's not infrequent that that does occur, especially the firearm being made safe and unloaded and the action locked up and so forth, that is actually a requirement of the laboratory that we not have loaded or unsafe firearms.

    Specifically in this case I don't recall an envelope, but if there was in that box, it would still be there today.

  • Okay. Whatever the condition it was in was not unusual to you?

  • And, in fact, the St. Louis County Police Department's Crime Laboratory examines firearms and ballistic materials from any police department in St. Louis County that would submit them to you; is that fair to say?

  • Yes, including federal agencies, yes.

  • And I would imagine, and I'm not sure, would it be fair to say that just different departments, they may have a different way of packaging a firearm? In other words, they might not use the same box that the county uses and so forth?

  • That's absolutely true. In fact, that's why it is not unusual because we have a requirement that the guns be boxed. It is for a safer storage and so forth, easier to store.

    Those agencies that will use those envelopes, when they arrive at our lab we will offer them boxes. It is not unusual to have that envelope in that box, no matter how they choose to submit it. Still other agencies will choose boxes very different from our own. Simply whatever they have available because then they meet the requirement of having the firearm boxed.

  • Now, we have also heard testimony from Detective that when he seizes a weapon, in order to package it and submit it for examination, that he would zip tie through the ejection port of the weapon in order to prevent that slide from moving. Did you notice if that had been done in this case?

  • I didn't pay particular attention to note, but every firearm is required to have a safety of some sort applied to it for its submission and that is the most common. And, in fact, when I'm done examining, I put on the very same zip tie.

  • And then he also testified that he would use some kind of led identification number seal that he would put on the trigger guard of the weapon to mark it, so to speak, or number it. Is that also something that you use for sealing?

  • Absolutely, it's a led tab that has a steel wire coming from it. That led is manufactured for our department with our name on one side and forgive me, our number on one side that is unique. It is an incremental numbering system on those led seals. They are unique so they're not repeated. So that number, when that led wire goes through the trigger back into the led and is crimped on with the led crimper, it embosses St. Louis County on it ideally. Then that is a unique number identifiable to that specific firearm and yes, I am very use to seeing those.

  • All right. So when you first receive that weapon and you look at it, did it appear to be handled properly in your opinion, came to you at least in a condition that didn't raise any suspicions with you?

  • Correct, I found it as I would expect to.

  • Okay. So can you describe what this weapon is?

  • Yes, it is a pistol. It's made, as you can see on your copies, by Sig Sauer, Incorporated. They're located in Exeter, New Hampshire. This model is a P229 and the caliber of it is .40 Smith & Wesson.

    Again, it is a pistol, the finish I call black, that's mainly for the color. Manufacturer's have many different names for their finishing processes. We don't try to keep up with those. We simply try to know what color that finish is. It has six lands and groves with a left twist inside the barrel, and this firearm has serial number 55B003794.

  • All right. The things that you indicated just now about the weapon, are those things you can see in your visual examination of the weapon or did you have to like actually look through some kind of device in order to determine that it had six lands and grooves with a right side twist, I mean, a left-hand twist?

  • That is the interior of the barrel. It took some lighting to eliminate that. It can be seen with the naked eye, however, low power magnification is best. I have an eye loop, it is a jeweler's loop, it is only 5X, it is not very much at all. Like a magnifying glass, it is not very much at all. It makes it easier to see. So I can look into the barrel and determine the number of lands and groves and the direction of that twist.

  • In regard to the caliber of the weapon, what does that mean?

  • The number is roughly the diameter from the raised area of the land on one side to the raised area of the land on the other side on the interior of the bullet. Interior diameter, if you will.

  • The interior of the barrel?

  • Of the barrel. However, that's not an exact measurement. There are different tolerances that the manufacturers have. The S & W after that number is Smith & Wesson is what that stands for. They developed that caliber, so .40 Smith & Wesson caliber is a name of this caliber of ammunition that this firearm is designed to fire.

  • All right. And when you say that you cleaned the weapon of blood, did you do any testing on that to determine it was blood?

  • The testing of any blood or search for any fingerprints if it was necessary is all done before the firearm comes to me in the laboratory.

  • So I understand that there were some tests done, I don't know specifically what tests nor the results.

  • But you didn't do any yourself?

  • That's correct.

  • Okay. And so after, are you familiar with this weapon?

  • Not this particular one, but the Sig Sauer .40 caliber pistol?

  • Yes, in fact, it is the same firearm that we are issued as county police officers.

  • All right. And so after having cleaned the firearm, what do you do then to continue your examination of the weapon?

  • I then made note of these observations and then began to do some more observations and some simple tests to include determinating the capacity of a magazine that was submitted with the firearm and that was 12.

    The firearm has no safety, I took note of that.

  • Is that unusual that a weapon of this type does not have a safety? Is it manufactured without a safety or is it somehow removed from the weapon?

  • This firearm and many others have internal safeties and when we speak of a safety, we are referring specifically to an external safety that can be applied by the person possessing the firearm. There are no external safeties on this firearm, but there was never designed to be. It was not removed from this weapon, it is simply not present.

  • Okay. And so then you also indicated there was a magazine submitted with this weapon, correct?

  • Can you describe for the grand jurors what is a magazine, it is not People or Time, obviously, but what was the magazine that was submitted to you?

  • Some people call it a clip, but it's that detachable part of the firearm that contains the ammunition. You can load it with as many as you like up to its capacity and in this case as many as 12 live cartridges inside the magazine. The magazine when you desire, when you use your desires, would seep into that firearm and lock into it and contain that ammunition.

    The firing cycle, it would take individual cartilages to load and fire from that magazine. And to continue to do so as many times as you fire it until the ammunition supply is exhausted.

  • So the magazine that was submitted to you, was it empty as submitted to you?

  • We receive it in both manners, where it is loaded and unloaded. I don't remember at the moment if he unloaded the magazine or not.

  • Do you recall if there were any live rounds that were submitted with this weapon?

  • I did have one live cartridge submitted with the magazine and firearm.

  • So now I called it a round and you just called it a cartridge. Can you describe for the grand jurors what you mean by a cartridge?

  • A cartridge is the unfired ammunition. It is a live cartridge where the primer is ready to be fired, I'm sorry, there is gunpowder contained in the cartridge case. And the bullet is seated in the mouth of that cartridge case. Again, it is unfired.

  • round is a interchangeable term if you will, perhaps a layperson's term. It can mean the same thing, but among fire examiners the definition of that is a live cartridge.

  • What else did you note about this weapon that you indicated in your report. You have here trigger pull SA, not applicable. What does that mean?

  • Trigger pull single action and next to that is DA, for double action, I put not applicable because I did not test the different trigger pulls that firearm has. It is a measurement taken in pounds. And the reason why I did not report that is because it can vary. One pull of the trigger might be 5 pounds and the next one might be 7 pounds. Unless it becomes a key element in the case, it is simply too variable to have much meaning to me and for me to testify to it. It is seemingly unimportant.

  • So in that case where someone says I was holding the weapon and I barely touched the trigger might be relevant, but in this case it was not; is that correct?

  • To my understanding, correct. There is no denial of firing the weapon, there is no question of how long the trigger pull might have been and things of that nature, so it was not recorded.

  • And then CYL and CYL rotation, what do those terms mean?

  • CYL is standing for cylinder. And that is for a revolver type weapon, this is a pistol, so it does not have that cylinder, so it is not applicable.

  • All right. And then you described the barrel length in inches; is that correct?

  • That's correct, three and three quarter inches.

  • And then muzzle trigger length you have NA, is that because it is a short pistol as opposed to a long gun?

  • That's correct. That's more intended for the overall length of firearms. Sometimes that length becomes an issue in the application of statutes. For example, sawed off gun, it has to be a certain length to be legal. And if it is any shorter than that, the measurement would have been taking there.

  • Now, we've described the action of this weapon or firearm as being semiautomatic.

  • What does that mean?

  • Semiautomatic pistols fire one bullet, fire one cartridge with each pull of the trigger. So if you pulled that trigger one time, even if you hold it back and don't release it, it is only going to fire the one time. You have to release the trigger then until it resets internally and then if you pull that trigger again, assuming you have more ammunition it would then fire again.

    But again, it only fires one time with each pull of the trigger.

  • Now, you described in this case the magazine that was submitted to you as having a capacity of 12 cartridges. Can this weapon, when the magazine is seated in the handle of the weapon, can it have more than 12 cartridges and be fully loaded.

  • Yes. If you were to seat the magazine and work the action of the firearm, open the slide, release the slide, it would feed that top cartridge from the magazine into the chamber of the barrel. If you remove that magazine, and you have 11 in it, if you put another one in it. So it is now again at capacity with 12, reseat that magazine, you now have a total of 13 live cartridges available to be fired in that magazine, I'm sorry, in that firearm without reloading it again.

  • And you identified the cartridge, the live round I called it, but the cartridge that you were submitted, you've listed as one Federal JHP, what does that mean?

  • The Federal is the marketed name stamped on the head stamp or on the base, if you will. If you stand that cartridge up on the bottom, it says Federal, that's who markets that ammunition. And JHP stands for Jacketed Hollow Point, that is the style of the bullet that's loaded into that cartridge case.

  • And the cartridge that was submitted to you, is this the type and caliber of a cartridge that could be fired from that weapon?

  • It is. I did not note the caliber next to that cartridge because it is the same caliber that the firearm is designed to fire. Sometimes ammunition that is submitted differs from the firearm, but I note when it is different here. And because there is no such note. I know that that is a .40 Smith & Wesson caliber cartridge.

  • All right. You also indicated that you had been submitted five bullets. Can you explain what is a bullet, how is a bullet different from a cartridge?

  • The cartridge is the combination of all the elements needed to fire a weapon. The primer in the cartridge case that contains the gunpowder and the bullet.

    So when you're firing a cartridge, a firing pin strikes the primer, which is a very small explosive. So that sets off that explosion, that miniature explosion sends fire into the open chamber of that cartridge case where the gunpowder is.

    So that fire then ignites the gunpowder. It doesn't detonate, which means to burn instantly, it burns rapidly, it deflagrates, which means it creates pressure. So that pressure that is created by the burning gunpowder is the same pressure that pushes the bullet out of that cartridge case through the barrel towards its target.

  • And then the bullet is the piece that comes out of the barrel of the gun and is what we normally think of as a bullet, it is what it shoots at targets or things?

  • Correct. In this case, for example, the submitted cartridge is a jacketed hollow point bullet. So that bullet would leave the cartridge case after having been fired, go through the barrel of the firearm. It's designed to make minimal, but contact with the lands and groves in that barrel to impart spin to the bullet so that when it leaves the barrel, it's a spinning bullet in flight now.

    The purpose of that is if you think of the analogy of a football, if you throw a spiral football, it will go farther and more accurately then an end over end football. It is the same principles at work here. If the bullet is spinning, it will go farther and more accurately than tumbling. That rifling is what gives it that stability.

  • So the bullet is forced through the barrel of the gun, what happens to then the rest of the cartridge?

  • The energy that pushes that bullet out the barrel is equal, but opposite on that cartridge case. And in essence on the gun in the shooter's hand itself. That's the recoil that you see in cowboy movies.

    That cartridge case after it has fired that bullet, it is marked in several ways by that firearm. First, as I mentioned the firing pin striking that primer will leave a mark.

    The pleasure from the firing process pushing that cartridge case rearward against the breech of the firearm impresses the contours of that breach into the surface of that fired cartridge case.

    In this case, speaking of pistols, the action of the firearm is intended to extract that fired cartridge case from the chamber. So there is a little hook on the firearm that grabs the rim of that fired cartridge case and pulls it out, pulls it rearward of that chamber as it is pulled rearward then it is designed to hit what's called an ejector. It is nothing more than a little piece that when that cartridge case is pulled rearward, it hits that ejector to deflect it out of the open side of that slide of the firearm.

    So to answer your question in a short order, after firing the bullet, the cartridge case is ejected from the pistol and then before the action closes, it needs the next cartridge from the magazine to reload it if there is one available.

  • So, what you just described from pulling the trigger and the firing pin hitting the cartridge and the bullet being expelled from the gun and the casing coming out and the next cartridge being loaded up into the firing position, is that called a cycle, is that the firing cycle?

  • And that happens at one pull of the trigger, correct?

  • That will happen with each pull of a trigger on a semiautomatic pistol like this.

  • So it doesn't require someone actually pulling the slide back in order to cause the gun to cycle again?

  • No, it doesn't. In fact, if you were to that, you would be ejecting a live cartridge and not have as much firing capacity because you would be wasting your ammunition.

  • Can you explain, because there has been testimony perhaps that when this weapon was fired during the incident of August 9th, that the officer pulled the trigger on a couple of different times and the weapon didn't fire. Did you test fire this weapon yourself?

  • Was it normal, did it fire normally?

  • Yes, I noted no defects at all.

  • Is there anything that you can explain that would have happen that would cause a weapon to not fire the cartridge if on this weapon pulled the trigger back?

  • To be clear, you're asking for speculation or generally speaking, correct.

  • Sure, right. I know you don't know what happened in this case.

  • I'm just asking you what could possibly be the reasons that you could pull the trigger and the weapon wouldn't fire?

  • Okay. Sometimes ammunition is simply bad ammo, maybe the primer doesn't have a priming compound in it. So no matter how many times you strike it, it is not going to fire.

    Sometimes a firearm might fail to feed a cartridge from the magazine, so you might try to cycle it and it doesn't feed that cartridge, so there is no cartridge in it to fire.

    There are other scenarios if you are successful firing one cartridge, but it fails to extract, in other words, the hook doesn't grab the rim and pull it out or if it fails to eject and it pulls out from that hook, but it doesn't eject before the action closes on it. It might have it standing to where the open end of that fired cartridge case pointing up and out of the gun, they call it a stovepipe, like a stovepipe on the top of your house.

    Another factor might be in some way the action is impeded during the firing process. Perhaps unimpeded a firearm and ammunition might all be in perfect working condition, but if there was something blocking the action to where it couldn't cycle freely, then it might cause some of these other events to occur, especially not being able to fire after one shot because it wasn't allowed to cycle enough to feed the next one. There could be many others.

  • Let me ask you a question. In this particular weapon, when you fire it, I don't know that this is the technical term for it, but the hammer, is that a technical term?

  • There is a hammer that strikes the firing pin, yes.

  • The hammer, as you can see it externally on the gun when you examine the gun, correct?

  • And when you fire that weapon, does the hammer come back and go forward striking the firing pin?

  • That's correct.

  • So if there would be something that would prevent that hammer from moving backwards and forward, would that cause the gun to not fire even though you pulled the trigger, it could?

  • Absolutely it could. And that, in fact, would be a scenario where the action of the firearm is impeded. Yes, interference with that hammer and motion of that hammer would prevent the firing pin being struck and firing that cartridge.

  • And then what about, you know, you've described, or I did and you also explain to where the hammer strikes the firing pin, which is basically on the bottom of the bullet, correct?

  • It's inline with the primer of the loaded live cartridge, yes.

  • If there is something that is in between the hammer and that firing pin, whether it be, you know, but something that would be between that action, could that possibly explain why you pulled the trigger and nothing happened?

  • In other words, if a part of your hand would be in between that firing pin and the hammer, that could prevent the weapon from firing?

  • Yes, absolutely.

  • And if that were to have happened, again, pure speculation, but if that were to have happened, and the weapon would not fire, if that obstruction was removed between the hammer and the firing pin, would the weapon then be able to cycle normally after that?

  • Or would you have to then go ahead and eject that round?

  • This firearm you could pull the trigger a second time. If the action is not impeded, it would be expected to fire then. It is not true of all firearms, but this firearm yes.

  • Okay. And if that were to have happened with this firearm, would there be anyway to tell that simply from your examination of the weapon?

  • In the scenario you've described, no. Because there are no marks on that live cartridge for me to observe. In other words, a different scenario, for example, I gave a bad ammunition was my first example. If you tried to fire it once and pulled the trigger again and that firing pin struck that primer a second time and then fired, I would note two firing pin impressions and know that there was more than one attempt to fire it.

    But in your scenario, no. There would be no marks made, I would have no indications on what evidence was submitted to me?

  • Now, in this case, let me ask you, you described how the gun was fired from the weapon and you mention that there are marks left on the empty cartridge that is ejected from the ejection port, correct?

  • And there is also markings that are made on the bullet itself as it is forced through the barrel of the gun, correct?

  • That's correct.

  • And can you see those markings using a microscope?

  • Are those markings made by the individual weapon that fires that cartridge?

  • The answer is yes and no. And if you'll allow me, let me explain.

  • Okay, go ahead.

  • There are what's called class characteristics. The number of the lands and groves and the direction of their twist inside the barrel, as well as the dimension of those lands and groves, that is determined by the manufacturing. They make many, many firearms with those specifications.

    So you might have one right after another coming off an assembly line that putting six left .40 caliber barrels out to be put into these pistols. And they're going to have those same class characteristics, they are intended by the manufacturer.

    However, as the tool wears during the making of that part, and as the gun is used after it is manufactured and sold, by firing, cleaning, abusing, misuse, etc., there are microscopic qualities in that are called individual characteristics. They're specific. Every one of us, if we were all given the same firearm in this room would treat it the same way and have exactly the same microscopic qualities or individual characteristics in our barrels after a hundred or a thousand rounds as an example.

    Are they unique to the weapon? Yes. There are some characteristics that I look for under the microscope to be able to tell one bullet from another, from the source of another or to determine whether or not they came from the same source fire.

  • So in this case, were you able to examine the shell casings that you had been submitted and you had a total of 12; is that correct?

  • Yes, that's correct.

  • Were those shell casings the same make and manufacture as the live round that was submitted to you?

  • Yes, they're Federal and .40 S & W caliber.

  • Were you able to compare the bullets which are submitted to you, which are five in number, correct?

  • Initially five.

  • And one later?

  • And one later.

  • On the 11th.

  • On the 11th I had five submitted to me. And they indeed were observed to be jacketed hollow point design bullet and .40 caliber, and it had six land and grove impressions with a left twist.

  • And when we're talking about the five bullets, these are spent bullets, correct?

  • Right. These are fired. They would not have the lands and groves of the barrel incrust upon them until they're fired through the barrel, yes.

  • Were you able to determine whether or not the five bullets that were submitted to you and the 12 casings that were submitted to you, were you able to draw any conclusions after comparing those items with the firearm that had been submitted to you?

  • I was. In test firing the submitted firearm, I retained fired cartridge cases and fired bullets. That's what I microscopically compared to submitted evidence. I was able to determine that all 12 of the submitted fired cartridge cases have a sufficient quantity and quality of those matching individual characteristics for me to conclude that they were fired in this firearm.

  • So just so we're clear, the 12 cartridge cases, they're like we call casings, or what I call casings?

  • The hollow kind of left over that gets thrown out of the ejection port, correct?

  • That is correct.

  • And then were you able to, I see here on page two of your report, you number the bullets as QB 1 through 5, and then you also reference where, where they were discovered. Is this information that you received on the evidence packaging that each bullet was packaged in?

  • It may or may not be on the package itself, but I get that directly from the evidence receipt that accompanies that evidence and packaging, yes.

  • So for QB 1, which is a copper jacketed hollow point bullet, .40 caliber, you have here from FPDVEH.108. What does that mean?

  • Uh, that is in quotations, because I took it directly from the evidence receipt. And my understanding is that stands for Ferguson Police Department Vehicle Number 108.

  • Okay. And you have here a measure of 158 grams and CSU Number 7. What does that mean?

  • The 158 is in grains, we measure in grains. And the CSU stands for Crime Scene Unit and that Number 7 next to that is their item number. So seizing detectives item number was given my laboratory specimen number QB 1. It stands for questionable, by the way. QB stands for questionable cartridge case.

  • And so the QB 2, 3 and 4, you indicate have been from the evidence receipt. It says from Brown's right side of back, right side of chest and right side of head. Those are all spent bullets that were seized by someone else and packaged and according to evidence receipt, were recovered from the body of Michael Brown, would that be what you're indicating?

  • And then regarding QB 5, it says from roadway and your information was then that this bullet was received from a roadway or on the street?

  • Yes, I had no further description of a specific location. Just what I noted there in the roadway.

  • And so after examining QB 1 through 5, were you able to make any, draw any conclusion about whether those bullets were fired from the weapon that had been submitted to you, the Sig Sauer?

  • And what were your conclusions?

  • The first one listed specimen QB 1, apparently from Ferguson police vehicle was inconclusive. It had enough damage to its surfaces that I did not have enough of those microscopic characteristics to match to my test shots to determine that it came from the same source.

    I did not have enough differences either to think or believe that it came from a different source firearm. So it is inconclusive for number one. However QB 2, 3, 4 and 5 had a sufficient quantity and quality of those matching individual characteristics in the rifling striations that we've talked about for me to conclude that they were indeed fired from this firearm.

  • Now, at a later date you were submitted another evidence item and asked to compare it to your QB, what's the gun called?

  • QF 1 or the test shots are TB 1A and B, TC 1A and B, compared with my test shots.

  • Okay. Did you make a report after you examined this additional evidence item?

  • And is this a copy of your report?

  • It is. (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 34

  • marked for identification.)

  • (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 34 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) And Grand Jury Exhibit Number 34, I made copies of this report for the grand jurors.

    So what was the additional item that was submitted to you?

  • It was a copper jacketed hollow point bullet fragment. In other words, it was not the complete whole bullet, it was only part of that bullet. I note that it was one side of a bullet, all the way from base to nose. It was part, once part of a .40 caliber bullet. It had six lands and groves with a left twist represented and it was from 2909 Canfield, seized on September 3rd of this year.

  • All right. And you examined this QB 6, your QB 6 and were you able to compare it to the test shots that you fired from the Sig Sauer weapon that was submitted to you back on the 11th of August?

  • I did make that comparison, yes.

  • And what, if any, conclusions did you draw from that?

  • It had sufficient quantity and quality of those matching individual characteristics for me to conclude that this bullet was also fired from this firearm.

  • And the items that you tested and examined in this case, did you repackage them and were those submitted to property control for safekeeping and storage?

  • That is the intended destination and, yes, I finished my examination, resealed the packages and put them in our vault on a shelf that is intended for the evidence to be forwarded to property control.

  • And just one more thing because I haven't seen the firearm that we're talking about in this case, but I recall from other cases I've had that sometimes the firearm has orange tape on the end of the barrel, is that still done when you are finished examining a weapon?

  • It is. It's an extra measure. We talked about the zip tie earlier, I provide the officers, my department with bright orange zip ties and that is so it is readily visible to anyone that if the firearm is handled openly, especially in court at a later time, that that's highly visible and they know that it's safe.

    I add in my lab when my examination is done, I added, my other examiners we add that bright orange tape to the barrel as well. It is nothing more than a visual indicator for you that what is being handled is safe and can't be fired in the state it's in.

  • So that bright orange tape I'm assuming is on the barrel of this gun that was placed there by you?

  • Does anybody have any questions?

  • I have just a couple. You want to go first?


  • (By Ms. Whirley) That bullet, the copper bullet fragment from 2909 Canfield, was that like a building that it was taken from or would you know?

  • That's the next question.

  • I understand it is another apartment in the area, but where inside that building I don't have specific knowledge.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) On first page of Exhibit Number 33, Grand Jury 33, poor condition of residue, what does that mean?

  • When I look in the barrel, I simply note is it clean and free of any debris, is there residues. I'm not even certain what those residues might be. Sometimes it is dust from people carrying it, it gets clothing dust in it, sometimes it is from firing it. There is residues left behind. When you fire a cartridge, 100 percent of the gun powder isn't consumed, there is some partial burned and some unburn powders, sometimes they're left in the barrel, sometimes they just fly out of the gun and left in the nearby area.

    Residue is simply that there was some debris in that barrel, but the barrel itself was not obstructed. It wasn't heavily fouled with multiple firings and build up of residues, it was simply a small amount of residue.

  • Okay. And the grain, like it's 158.0 grain, 177.0 grain, what does that grain mean, what are we talking about?

  • That's a measurement much like grams and ounces and so forth.

  • Of what, though, what are we measuring?

  • That is the weight of the bullet.

  • So specimen QB 1, I described as a bullet itself. The full weight of that bullet that was submitted to me was 158 grains.

  • And they're different weights because of what they went through once they were fired?

  • Yes, and they're manufactured in different weights by manufacturers. Their starting weight might be, for example, 154 grains, but they might add weight because they retain wall material if they were dug out of the wall or something of that nature.

    Or if it is a fragment, you might only have part of the full weight of the bullet. Sometimes that weight helps us determine a caliber, it didn't really come into play in this scenario.

  • The internal safety, what is that on this weapon, you said it has an internal safety?

  • Basically what I mean is the parts in the firearm are designed so it cannot be fired unless you pull the trigger. If you drop it, it's not going to fire. If you hit on the hammer, you know, with something, it's not going to fire. It's designed not to go off unless you pull the trigger of that firearm.

  • So this weapon was fired 12 times; is that correct, based on your examination?

  • For there to be 12 fired cartridge cases ejected in the area of this firearm as it's alleged, the trigger would of had to have been pulled 12 times.

  • 12 individual times?

  • At least, yes.

  • Is that the difference between a semiautomatic and an automatic?

  • Yes, an automatic you could hold the trigger back and it will continue firing until you release the trigger. So a fully automatic firearm might fire every cartridge available to it with one pull of the trigger, but this is not that kind weapon.

  • I don't have anything else, thank you.

  • You're welcome.

  • Oh, no, I do. One more thing. I'm sorry you guys.

    Where it says offense assault on LEW, which is Law Enforcement Officer.

  • LEO, I'm sorry, which is Law Enforcement Officer.

  • Where does that come, I mean, this is your report, is that some determination you made?

  • No, actually, that is some of the, as I mentioned earlier, some of the case information that is provided to us on the evidence receipt that is submitted with the evidence. That case information is entered into our laboratory system, so different areas of the lab know what evidence they have to examine and so forth. And it is auto populated into our reports.

    So it was submitted, again, on the evidence receipts that the offense is