The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everyone says good morning.)

  • Let's see, Monday, October 13th, at 8:38 a.m. This is Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office, present is Sheila Whirley, all 12 grand jurors are present, as is , the court reporter. He's taking down what is being said and recording, audio recording.

    So for today, the first witness, let me back up a little bit and talk about scheduling. There was a question brought up, I think it might have been during a break we had last week about whether or not three days a week was helpful or if it was not very productive. And so Sheila and I have talked about it, as well as with some of our investigators.

    You know, as I mentioned to you that some of these people are reluctant to come in and that means going out and serving them subpoenas and even then, that's not a guarantee they're going to show up.

    We have been lucky so far. We have been able to get the people in, but, you know, every day is going to be a challenge. We talked about it and first of all we felt that it was, it was going to be problematic for us to try to corral or wrangle up enough people to fill three days of your time.

    Neither Sheila nor I wants you sitting here. I know you have taken out from your personal lives and from your jobs and it is just really wrong for us to waste your time for you to sit here for two hours when we don't have anything scheduled for you or anything to put on.

    I think the two day a week is going to be better, hopefully we will use that time productively.

    Another reason for it is because we have doing the transcripts and we need those done as quickly as possible, because there's another investigation going on, that as you know, there's a federal investigation that's kind of parallel to ours. And doesn't just work when he's in the room with us, he goes home and he works to try to transcribe everything that is going on. And news to me, he mentioned the other day one hour of testimony may take him three hours to transcribe.

    He's working diligently to try to get these transcripts out. And when we have back to back days, he's not able to work on the transcripts and the three days a week, we're finding he's not able to keep up with the transcripts the way we need them.

    Another reason is, you know, once this case is concluded and given to you for your deliberation, once, assuming you arrive at a decision, we don't want to have to delay that decision for two or three weeks while we're waiting for the transcripts to be done.

    So he's, , trying to do those as we go so we can keep up on those. So we felt that that was another reason why the two day a week would be better for just our purposes and getting this done efficiently and as quickly as possible.

    So I think the word went out to you last week after we canceled Thursday, that we also are canceling tomorrow, but we do have witnesses lined up for all day today, assuming they show up and then we have witnesses lined up for all day Thursday. Including, you know, we're going to hear statements when we're not having witnesses boom, boom, boom there will be times that you are listening to statements of witnesses that we anticipate that are going to be called.

    So with that being said, thank you for, did they already do the rest of October?

  • Today, this week is today and Thursday. I don't know if we have the next two weeks actually written in stone. So if you guys, I've got a calendar in my office, but is that completed for the month.

    No jury duty on the 30th. We have it up through the 28th, that's three days.

    We need to talk about it. We need to confirm it.

  • Yeah, why don't you all keep in mind two days a week is going to be the best way to go during your lunch break, and something you can kind of talk about your schedules and redo the calendar as you have.

    I will tell you that whatever days you pick, like I said, we are going to work with those. Doesn't matter to me, however, I do believe that it can be helpful for us if at least one of those days at least till 5:00. We've found that there are witnesses who have said, you know, well, I can't be here till 4:00 because my kids off the bus and blah, blah, blah.

    We understand that these people are witnesses, you know. They happen to be, what they may feel now is at the wrong place at the wrong time. So, I'm trying my best, especially the ones that are cooperative, to work with them if they have, you know, work or child issues that, you know, we'll get you here, when does your son get off the bus. Okay. How about if we have the cab pick you up at 3:00, get you here at 3:30 that way we can get some of these people on.

    So when you do your schedule, I know that a lot of these days you have a 2:30 cutoff because of work and that's fine, but if there is a day during the week that you can go till 5:00, that might be a good second day for us because then we can maybe accommodate some witnesses that need to work later.

    Is there anything else that anybody had to bring up or talk about before we get started?

    All right. So today we are going to hear first We heard from his wife

    last Tuesday. And he was here with her, we didn't have time to get to him. You've already heard his recorded statement so we will call him as our first witness.

    We also have , she has a couple of statements that we will play before she testifies. One of them is very brief, like three minutes long, but the other one I have to tell you we just got because it was the result of a federal interview.

    I can't remember if it was done by the FBI or Department of Justice, but we have that, we have the recording of that, but I don't have a transcript of that. So we'll just listen to the recording of that statement before she testifies.

    And then we have a witness that's scheduled to be here at 1:00 in the afternoon. His name is He's made a number of statements as well.

    So after testifies, we'll go on with the statements, recording statement for the next witness, all right. of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION THE WITNESS: I want to be sure that I understood what it was.

  • Would you state your name and spell it for the court reporter, please?

  • It is one please, in

  • Mr. , good morning.

  • Good morning.

  • We've met before. I'm Kathi Alizadeh and you know that I'm one of the prosecuting attorneys who is putting on the grand jury investigation with Sheila Whirley as well, right?

  • And I know you were here last week and you and your wife came in, and I apologize that we didn't have time to get to you, but you were good enough to come in today. So we will get you out of here as soon as we can, okay?

  • The microphone that's in front of you, does not amplify your voice. So just make sure you keep your voice up so we can hear you all the way back here.

  • Okay. Most people tend to tell me to tone it down because I project. So I don't think that will be a problem.

  • Okay. You've got a nice voice there, everybody will raise their hand and let you know if they can't hear you or need you to repeat something.

    Sir, how old are you? A

  • And are you married?

  • Who are you married to? A

  • And do you and have any children together?

  • Okay. So what is your biological child?

  • What is her name?

  • And those are your step or biological?

  • Those are my biological. is my stepdaughter.

  • Okay. So you -- A

  • You and , and who is the other daughter?

  • and she's our youngest and

    is my stepdaughter.

  • And are , are they both adults or are they minors?

  • They are all adults. The youngest is currently years old.

  • And are you familiar with the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • Only that I've ridden out there a couple of occasions with the family. has a friend who lives there.

  • So you don't have live in the complex?

  • No, I live in north St. Louis.

  • And none of your family lives in the complex, correct?

  • No, they do not.

  • Okay. And so do you recall the morning of August 9th of this year?

  • The day of the shooting?

  • Was there anything special or unusual about that morning?

  • We were taking

  • And as we were driving down Canfield toward the complex, we heard what first sounded like overly loud fireworks. And we looked up, saw the flashing red and blue lights.

    At this point I noticed the officer and a large black man, about my size, who appeared to be pointing a gun. I believe they were having a shootout at the time, I believe they were having a shootout. And the young black man appeared to be pointing in our direction and I was afraid for my family at the time.

  • Okay. Let me stop you.

  • And we're going to start --

  • --at the very beginning. So you were going into the complex, do you remember what time, approximately, what time of day it was?

  • It was bright and sunny, that's all I can remember.

  • Do you remember this being a Saturday?

  • Uh, at this point, no, I don't remember what day of the week it was.

  • Okay. And so were you in a vehicle?

  • And who was driving?

  • Where were you in the car?

  • Front passenger.

  • Were there any other people in the van with you?

  • and I believe two of the grandchildren, but I don't recall which two.

  • Are the grandchildren, are they minors?

  • They are minors. The oldest one is

  • Okay. And so you said you were coming into the complex, was driving into the complex?

  • Yes, she was. We were in traffic.

  • And do you remember, I'm going to direct your attention to Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, which is an aerial view of the streets and buildings that comprise the complex?

  • Which way is Florissant?

  • So what I'm going to tell you is that this is north, up is north?

  • And so if you were to see that this is Canfield Drive that goes through the complex, if you continue on here you are going to West Florissant?

  • Okay, okay. We were coming from Florissant down the drive.

  • Our destination was this parking area back here behind one of these two houses. We always pull up from the back, so I'm not sure which house it is, but lives in one of these houses.


  • Here, let me have you, let me show you here, this is a laser pointer. So instead of having you stretch yourself, you can use that?

  • So you were in the van and you were coming east on Canfield?

  • Yeah. This curve here is, we were coming, we were on this curve when we heard the first shots, which called our attention to it. And we began scanning the distance down the hill here looking for the source of the, looking for the source of the sound.

  • Okay. Now, let me tell you and remind you that I know that you had other people in your vehicle.

  • And I know they all saw things as well.

  • What is important is that you testify about what you saw.

  • And what you heard and observed as opposed to if maybe you and your wife?

  • Or your daughters talked about this later and they talked about what they saw.

  • I understand.

  • You're saying we did this and we were scanning the area, what is important is what you did.

  • Okay. So as the vehicle comes to this bend, which is at the northwest corner of the map, right around Coppercreek Road, you said that having heard what you believed to be fireworks?

  • Right. They sounded a little too loud for fireworks.

  • And looking down further down the street, I saw the lights from the squad car.

  • Okay. So let me stop you. Get some details before we get to that point.

  • Were your van windows up or down or do you recall?

  • Urn, a couple of inches. I like the fresh air, but I don't like the wind blowing in my ear when we drive. It is usually cracked two or three inches.

  • Okay. Do you recall would you of had the radio on or music playing?

  • No radio, but I had four adults and two children in the car

    There was a lot of noise.

  • A lot of chatter?

  • Okay. So, and then how is your hearing, Mr.

  • My hearing is pretty good.

  • What about eyesight, do you wear glasses?

  • I do not wearing glasses. I have trouble reading, uh, I have trouble reading street signs when we're driving.

  • But other than that, I don't have any problem. I can read, uh, united we fall, divided we united we stand, divided we fall is kind of fuzzy on the seal.

  • I can see the MDCCXX, the roman numerals at the bottom. I don't wear glasses.

  • Okay. So now, as you come around the bend and you said that you looked down, kind of scan down Canfield, which at that point as you are coming around is kind of a straight shot, correct?

  • And you see, you said you see a squad car?

  • Now, I do not, I still don't know for sure. I didn't recall when I gave my first statement, whether it was a car or an SUV. I didn't pay that much attention to the vehicle, but I saw the lights.

  • Okay. So lights meaning like the light bar on top of the car?

  • Right, the red and blues.

  • You saw those were going off?

  • And what did you see as far as people at and/or around the vehicle, please vehicle?

  • Urn, I saw people, residents and citizens coming from various different directions. I saw the officer out of his vehicle, I didn't see him exit his vehicle. When I first seen the officer, he was already, uh, several feet from his vehicle.

  • Okay. So can you use the pointer and point to where you believe you first saw the vehicle, not where you were, but where was the police vehicle?

  • There's an image of a vehicle on your map here and it is near that one, it is near this side road here in between this one and this side road here. (indicating)

    It was in this area here.


  • Okay. So was the vehicle when you first observed it, was it moving or was it stationary?

  • Okay. Did you ever see it move after that?

  • No, I didn't.

  • Okay. So when you came around, you said you saw the officer and he was already out of the vehicle?

  • Yes, with his back to me.

  • And you said he was a ways away from the car?

  • So in what directional was he away from the car?

  • He was down the street because he was moving down the road away from his vehicle. The officer was near the yellow line.

    The vehicle was about 45 degrees from the curb and the officer was out near the yellow line moving down the road away from the vehicle.

  • Okay. So when you say the vehicle was about 45 degrees away from the curb, do you mean that the vehicle was angled or do you mean that it was, I don't understand?

  • It had been like it had been pulled in and the right front wheel was at the curb and the vehicle was about 45 degrees, like it had been parked at an angle.

  • Okay. So it wasn't in the lane as if, you know, if you were driving down that street, you would be going straight down the lane?

  • You will have to see people parked at an angle on Sundays out in front of churches, it was at an angle by the curb.

  • Was the officer's vehicle blocking the road so that other vehicles could not go past?

  • Or do you know? Don't guess if you don't know.

  • I don't think it was blocking. I'm not positive, but I don't believe it was blocking the road. It was closer to the curb.

  • Okay. So you said when you first saw the officer, he was, his back was toward you?

  • And he was moving away from you?

  • He was moving away from us toward the guy that he was shooting at. I first seen the officer, the officer was between me and the guy he was shooting at. The officer was facing the other guy and guy that he was, I'm sorry, I don't know what to call the other guy.

  • We now know that the person who died was named Michael Brown.

  • So it is okay

  • And just to be clear, so you didn't know Mr. Brown before that day?

  • No, I did not.

  • And is that the bigger black gentleman that you described having seen?

  • Yes, the one that was shot.

  • Okay. So let's back up for a second so when you see the officer.

  • You said he's a ways away from the car with his back towards you and he's moving away from you.

  • So are you good at distances?

  • Not that good.

  • Okay. Can you give me an idea how many feet or car lengths or a football field?

  • A car length, maybe two, between them or between us.

  • Between the officer's vehicle and where you first saw the officer you said he was aways from his car?

  • Not more than a car length from his vehicle.

  • A couple of strides.

  • And when you say he was moving away from you, can you describe how he was moving? Was he running, was he walking, was he walking quickly, jogging?

  • Uh, a trot, a brisk trot.

  • Did you see at that time if he had a gun in his hand?

  • I couldn't see what he had in his hands, his back was to me.

  • Okay. And so, now as you look and you said you saw the officer, did you also, when you first looked, could you also see Michael Brown?

  • Yes, my first, that was my first view of Michael Brown. He was in direct line just past the officer and he was pointing in our direction.

  • Okay. So he was facing in this direction?

  • Okay. So the first time you saw him, you saw his front?

  • Okay. You never saw the back of him?

  • No, I did not.

  • He appeared to be pointing directly at the vehicle we were in, he was pointing at the officer in the officer's direction and because of our point of view, he appeared to be pointing at us.

  • Okay. Did you see anything in his hands or anything that he was doing with his hands?

  • I believe I saw a flash of light off of something.

  • Okay. And now you had mentioned earlier, and I believe in your statement as well, you said at first you thought he had a gun?

  • Yes, that was my belief.

  • So that was an impression you got --

  • Yeah, I was scared the bullets were going to start coming through the windshield.

  • Now, let's back up just a bit. When you were coming around that bend and you heard what you now know are gunshots, how many shots do you think you heard?

  • Three or four.

  • Okay. And then when you saw, you first saw the officer, did you see him after you heard the gunshots?

  • After, okay. So when you saw the officer and he's moving away from you, could you tell was he firing a weapon as he was moving away from you?

  • Uh, the next shot I heard was after Michael Brown started running, the officer fired and I saw Michael Brown stagger and fling his arms out. At which point he turned around and came back toward the officer.

  • Okay. Now, let's back up. When you first see Michael Brown, he's facing the officer?

  • And you said it appeared that he was pointing?

  • He looked like he was pointing at us, yes.

  • Can you stand up and show the grand jurors how you saw what it looked like he was doing?

  • He's about my size, young black guy and he looked like he was pointing. I can't tell one finger or two, I can't tell what he had in his hand, but I thought I saw a glint. I believe it was a gun.

  • Okay. Now, when you saw him, when you first saw him, was he moving or was he standing still or standing in place?

  • I'm not certain.

  • Okay. As you then come around the bend and you see this, describe for me, you can sit down, we'll go through this again step by step, but describe for me what you see next happened?

  • Well, after seeing him and the officer and seeing him point and getting this impression that he was going to start shooting in our direction, uh, like that, Mr. Brown spun and started to run away down the street going this direction.

  • Okay. So that would be east down Canfield?

  • Yes, down Canfield away from Florissant and away from our vehicle. At which point the officer fired one shot and I saw Mr. Brown stagger.

  • Okay. Let's back up now then. You had said when you saw the officer he was, his back was to you, he's moving ago way from

  • Moving away from us, moving toward Mr. Brown.

  • And you said he was near the yellow line?

  • Where was Michael Brown standing when you first saw him? Was he in the street, was he in the grass?

  • Out in the middle of the street.

  • Okay. And what was the distance when you first saw them between Michael Brown and the officer?

  • Uh, perhaps the length of this courtroom.

  • Okay. So maybe

  • From me to the flag.

  • 15, 20 feet.

  • Okay. And so then you say you saw Michael Brown, he was pointing when you first saw him? A

  • You saw him spin around?

  • Spin and run.

  • And run where?

  • Down the street.

  • So he stayed in the street?

  • Urn, he might have been angling toward this side of the street, but he was running straight down the center of the street that's turning, so, he was running straight away from us.

  • Okay. When you saw him, did you notice how he was dressed, and I mean, Michael Brown, did you pay any attention?

  • Blue jeans, white T-shirt, tennis shoes.

  • And so, and you said you thought you saw a glint in his hand, but did you see anything once he turned around and was running, did you notice anything in his hands?

  • I thought I saw him throw something or lose something when the officer wounded him and he, when he was wounded, he flung his arms out and spun back around. And I thought something might have flung from his hands. I wasn't certain at the time I gave my original statement. This was an impression that I got that I thought he may or may not have lost what he had in his hand.

  • Okay. Could you tell when you first saw Michael Brown, did he have a hat on?

  • I don't remember a hat at all.

  • Okay. And so you say that he was running away from the officer and the officer was, you said a fast trot, I think?

  • A trot or a jog.

  • He was trying to close the distance.

  • And when the officer was running, after Michael Brown spun around and started to run east down Canfield Drive, did the officer fire at him?

  • And then you said, you had said something about Michael Brown being wounded.

  • Yeah, when Mr. Brown was running away from the officer, one shot was fired. Mr. Brown staggered a little to the left and his arms went out. It looked to me like he was shot in the left leg or low on the left side and he spun around.

  • Did you see any blood coming from him?

  • No, I wasn't close enough to see blood.

  • So it was just by the way he reacted that you thought he was shot?

  • The way his body jerked.

  • Okay. And so you say he spun around, so when he spun around, was he facing the officer at that point?

  • He spun 180 degrees and came back toward the officer.

  • All right. When you say he came back toward the officer?

  • Several steps back toward the officer.

  • Okay. Now, can you stand up again, sorry, up down, up down.

  • That's okay.

  • It is like church.

  • It's all right.

  • So can you describe for me when you say he spun around and he flung his hands out.

  • Show the grand jurors what you mean by that?

  • Okay. Pardon me. His left leg kind of jerked a little and his arms went out as he was running. He kind of, and he came about.


  • He continued the turn.

  • Now, you're doing something with your hands, is that what he was doing?

  • His arms came down.

  • After he completed, after he completed his turn and recovered his balance, his arms came down.

  • And he proceeded to take several steps toward the officer with his arms down.

  • Okay. And did you, so at this point when you say down, do you mean at his side?

  • I mean hanging loosely at his sides.

  • And the steps that he took toward the officer, can you describe how he was doing that, walking, walking quickly, running?

  • And about how many steps did he take toward the officer?

  • He got three, maybe four steps.

  • From where he had turned around?

  • Yes, he had gotten three, maybe four steps.

  • Was the officer still going toward him?

  • Yes, they were still closing the distance.

  • Okay. Did you hear anybody saying anything at all during this time?

  • At this point lots of bystanders had started screaming, but I couldn't make out what they were saying.

  • Okay. Could you tell if there was any, whether the officer or Michael Brown was saying anything?

  • I couldn't hear them.

  • Okay. Could you tell if they were saying anything, like did you see?

  • I didn't, I didn't get any impression. I could hear a couple of women screaming, you always get somebody's mother or sister or cousin screaming at the police, even if nobody gets shot, there is always somebody screaming.

  • Okay. So then as you, are you still watching this whole time or were you ever like ducking down in the van because you thought maybe you were going to get shot at?

  • Uh, I was sitting as low as my seat belt would allow me to. I wasn't, I was in a bucket seat of a with the seat belt on. I couldn't go, I couldn't move very far.

  • So from the time you came around that bend, did you watch the entire time or was there a time when you looked away or looked down to where you might have missed something?

  • I was intent on the shootout or what I believe, what I believed to be a shootout in front of me because I was worried about stray bullets coming through the windshield.

  • So when you saw Michael Brown, he had turned around now and his hands were down at his side?

  • Down at his sides.

  • And he's taking a few steps toward the officer?

  • What happens then?

  • The officer unloaded on him.

  • And what do you mean by that?

  • I mean, he fired four or five shots in rapid succession. He gunned him down.

  • And what did you, did you see, what did you see Michael Brown doing as the officer was firing his weapon?

  • In what direction did he fall?

  • Uh, he crumpled, he crumpled in, well, on the map he would have crumpled to the north, but basically he crumpled to his right going this way and fell and collapsed.

  • Was he in the street or in the grass or on the sidewalk?

  • He was still in the street.

  • In the street. Did he fall forward or on his side?

  • He crumpled to the right and I believe he landed on his back, but he appeared, it looked like his right leg gave out. He crumpled to the right and fell away from the officer who at this point was a little more to one side of him.

  • Okay. Now, let me ask something I haven't clarified yet.

    When you were coming around the bend and driving, correct?

  • Did you all, did she continue to drive as this was going on?

  • Did she stop the ?

  • No, we saw, we saw the police and the crowd and we turned onto, excuse me, we turned onto this side road here and drove around the back to

    house. I still can't remember which one of these two houses it is, but we drove around to avoid the scene.

  • Okay. So you took a left onto Coppercreek Road?

  • You drove around Coppercreek Road, all the way to Stonefield Road?

  • All right. So fair to say then that you never got farther east than this intersection?

  • Right. And was never more than, was never any closer than two blocks from the shooting.

  • Like I said, I wasn't close enough to see any blood or to hear any verbal exchange between.

  • Okay. So after you saw Michael Brown collapse you said and he landed in the street.

  • At that point, were you already on Coppercreek Court or

  • That's the point where we were looking for somewhere to turn off because we were like, we got to get out of here. Traffic had held us up at this bend.

  • So there were other cars?

  • The street was blocked all the way down to this point here. The whole street was lined with traffic.

  • So there were other cars in front of your van?

  • Yes, we were caught in traffic.

  • And so I'm guessing, or I shouldn't guess, so when you were driving down here, did you immediately turn or was there a time where you were stuck in traffic or stopped in the road?

  • We turned, we turned a few seconds after Mr. Brown hit the street, after he collapsed because as soon as he collapsed, we started looking for an exit.

  • Okay. As you went left onto Coppercreek Road and traveled in this direction north and then east, could you see any more what was going on over there on Canfield Drive?

  • Uh, I didn't have any feel, I didn't have any clear line of sight. We saw people running and walking to and from, and we saw police cars coming from every different direction, but I couldn't see anything beyond that.

  • From the time you came around this bend and you said you saw the officer's car?

  • I know you said police came later, but was that the only police car that you saw when you came around the bend?

  • That is the only car that I observed.

  • Okay. And then you said you saw an officer, was he in uniform?

  • And do you know any Ferguson police officers?

  • No, I don't.

  • So did you see any other uniformed officers at that time when you first looked down the street? Were there other officers with him?

  • I don't remember.

  • I don't recall. My attention was focused on where the shots were coming from.

  • And so when you say you saw Michael Brown turn around or now, you see him turn actually twice, correct? You first see him, he's looking toward the officer?

  • Right, he turned to run and he spun back around when he was wounded or like, I still think he was, I still think he was wounded when he was running.

  • How, from the time he first turned around and ran away from the officer until he stopped and spun around.

  • How much distance did he cover in that time?

  • 50 feet maybe.

  • Give or take a little bit. I'm two blocks up the street. I'd say about 50 feet.

  • Now, you have demonstrated for us that when he was, when Michael Brown was running away, and you said he kind of?

  • Staggered and his arms flung up and you demonstrated that.

  • Can you just stand up and put your arms in that position so I can describe it?

  • Let me turn around.

  • Put your arms up the way he had them?

  • Okay. The way the flung out, yes.

  • So your left arm is extended away from your body at about a 45 degree angle?

  • Down and out.

  • Down and out?

  • Yes, and the right arm was higher, shoulder level as he spun.

  • Okay. And, okay, thank you. And then when he spun around, what did his hand do?

  • As he came about to face us again, his arms came down to his sides and hung loosely at his sides.

  • All right. Did you ever see Michael Brown clutching his torso or have his hands anywhere in his mid section after he turned around and faced the officer?

  • Not that I recall.

  • Did you ever see Michael Brown put his hands up?

  • No, I never saw his arms up.

  • Never saw his hands up like that?

  • Never saw his hands up.

  • Other than the way you have demonstrated?

  • Only when he flung them out in spinning around. I never saw him put his hand up.

  • Sheila, do you have any questions? I'm out of questions, thanks.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) So you first saw the officer when he was out of his vehicle, correct?

  • So you did not see any tussling or altercation at the police car with Michael Brown?

  • All right. Urn, can you describe the officer's demeanor when you first saw him and by that I mean, can you show us what he was doing? You know, like did he have a gun pointed, was he, what was he looking like when you first saw him?

  • When I first saw him, I was looking at his back as he was walking away from me or trotting, toward Mr. Brown.

  • Okay. And from behind, that's what you could see, could you see his hands from behind, from his behind, I mean, his behind was facing

  • They looked like they were up. He probably had his, probably had his gun in his hands.

  • It appeared --

  • I couldn't see the gun. They looked like they were up.

  • As if he was holding a gun and pointing a gun?

  • And just to be clear, the officer was shooting at Michael Brown when he was running away from the officer?

  • One shot. And you think that shot actually struck him?

  • The way he staggered, I do believe it struck him.

  • But you couldn't tell where?

  • Okay. And as Michael Brown was running away, it appeared he had a gun in his hand as he was running away, because you said?

  • I saw, I saw what I thought was something fly from his hand when he spun, but it was an impression I got and since my original statement to the police, I said that I wasn't certain because of the distance, but I got the impression that something flew out of his hand when he was struck and spun around.

  • Okay. So while he's running away, is he facing you or not?

  • His back, because he was running almost directly away from us down the road.

  • Okay. So both the officers back and his back was to you as they were running away?

  • And the officer was closest to you?

  • But it looked like to you that from the back, Michael Brown had a weapon?

  • Urn, I didn't see anything in his hands when he was running.

  • I saw what I thought was something fly from his hand when he spun.

  • And I saw a glint off of something in his hand when I first saw him because the first time I laid eyes on Mr. Brown, he was pointing at us. And I thought I saw a glint off of something in his hand.

  • Okay. All right. So as he ran and the officer fired a shot, he thought he was hit, he staggered?

  • He turned around, as you demonstrated for us how he turned around.

  • So once he turned around and he was walking towards the officer, you said a few steps, was he staggering still?

  • He did not seem to be staggering. He was walking fairly well.

  • Okay. He no longer seemed to be staggering?

  • He wasn't moving very rapidly, he was walking slow. At a much more normal walk.

  • Can you kind of show us what you mean, please?

  • After he spun around and walked back toward the officer, it cars more of a, it was more of just, you know, walking across the room. It was just walking like, you know, I'm walking back toward the officer. (indicating)

  • Not like he was injured or anything?

  • It was a fairly normal walk.

  • It did not appear that he was --

  • Okay. As he's walking, that is when the officer said what?

  • Open fire. And that's when Michael Brown went down?

  • Okay. Did it appear to you that Michael Brown was charging the officer?

  • I didn't get the impression of a charge because it wasn't fast enough to be a charge.

  • Okay. Did it appear to you that the officer had to shoot Michael Brown in order to protect himself?

  • I wouldn't say had to. At the time I was relieved because I believed at the time, I still stand by my original statement, but my impression at the time was that it was a shootout between the officer and Mr. Brown in a residential neighborhood surrounded by bystanders who were all stupidly running toward a gun fight.

  • But you never saw Michael Brown fire a gun?

  • I never saw him fire anything.

  • So it was just your assumption that it was a gunfight?

  • Okay. So my question is, when the officer opened fire, did it appear that he had to do that to protect himself in your opinion?

  • Urn, I couldn't see Mr. Brown's hands and I wasn't sure if he lost the weapon, if there was a weapon.

    I felt, at the time I felt the officer did what he had to do.

  • Is that what you think here today?

  • I still feel that the officer did what he believed was the right thing.

  • Okay. And I noticed in your statement that you gave to the police back on August 13th of 2014, you said you did ?

  • Tell us about that, what was that for?

  • I'm a I'm a convicted felon and I don't have any love for the police.

  • My wife and I felt that we should do our civic duty and come forward and tell everybody what we saw. I'm not comfortable being here, but I'm trying to do the right thing.

  • Okay. Questions?

  • Let me ask a couple just to clarify, and I didn't ask you about this earlier,

    Did you see another black younger male that was smaller than Mr. Brown at, near, around the vehicle or running in that area?

  • I have no idea who you might be speaking of. The neighborhood was filled with young black people. They were all over the place. It is a neighborhood full of them.

  • So you don't recall seeing anybody near, or besides Mike Brown, and you've already described where you saw him, did you ever see another black gentleman at or near the police vehicle?

  • No, my attention was on the officer and Mr. Brown. I did not.

  • Okay. And, you know, from what you've stated, you didn't see anything that occurred prior to you coming around that bend, correct?

  • So if there was anything that happened prior to you coming around the bend, whether it was between the officer and Mike Brown or anyone else that was there, you didn't witness that?

  • And let me ask you because Sheila Whirley had asked you about whether or not you felt the officer had to fire, if there was something that occurred prior to the officer running after Michael Brown, you have no idea what that was?

  • No, I do not.

  • Just one last follow-up. As Michael Brown is running away from the officer and he fired at him.

  • Did it appear that Michael Brown was a threat at that time in your opinion?

  • I believe that, I believe, I certainly believe at the time that Mr. Brown was dangerous. It was my belief at the time that here was somebody with a gun running from the police in a residential neighborhood. That's always a danger, a very real concern.

  • Okay, thank you. Anybody else, questions?

    What were you doing when you entered the complex? You said your wife was driving and you were in the passenger seat, what were you doing at that time, were you looking around, were you talking?

  • I was playing with my phone until I heard the shots.

  • Okay. So you were looking down at your phone?

  • And we heard shots.

  • Okay. I just want to confirm since you thought there was a gunfight and that was because of the sound, not because of anything you saw.

  • And where on the map was Michael Brown when he turn around or spun around as you said to face the police officer?

  • He had started around here and was running this way.

  • And had gotten perhaps 50 or 60 feet.

  • Okay. And then he started walking back and where was he at when he fell, did you see where he fell?

  • Somewhere in this area. (indicating)

  • Okay. And you said throughout everything that Michael Brown spun around, do you feel that he spun around on his own accord or do you feel it was due to the impact of being shot.

  • The bullet, the impact of being shot, uh, certainly appeared to have started him turning. And whether he continued of his own volition or not, I'm not certain. It looked like the impact started to spin him around and when he completed the turn, he was facing us again and came back toward the officer.

  • Okay. So you feel that maybe if he hadn't been shot, he might have continued to run that way?

  • Were you able to see Michael Brown's face after he spun around?

  • From that distance, it was just a large black guy.

  • Okay. This question is going to be uncomfortable for you to answer, but Michael Brown you said was your size?

  • That was the impression I had.

  • How tall are you?

  • Okay. How much do you weigh?

  • 210. Thank you, I'm done.

  • You mentioned that you are a big guy and we know Michael Brown was a big guy, and do you think that anything to do with the threat towards the police officer because he was a big guy?

  • Thank you, I'm done.


  • It's possible, it's possible. I don't believe the officer was as tall. My impression was that the officer was perhaps 3 or 4 inches shorter than Mr. Brown. I'm not certain how tall either one of them are, but I got the impression that he was about half a head shorter.

  • Okay. With him having a gun that you perceived he had?

  • And physical size.

  • And physical size.

  • Anyone else have a question? Okay. This will conclude the testimony of Mr.

    (End of the testimony of of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Could you state your name, please? A

  • And how are you employed, sir?

  • I'm a special agent with the FBI assigned to the St. Louis field office.

  • How long have you been an agent with the FBI?

  • Almost 24 years.

  • And have you always been assigned to the St. Louis office?

  • Yes, I have.

  • And so were you assigned as a special agent with the FBI St. Louis office back in the month of August of this year?

  • Have you had occasion to assist in the investigation into the shooting of Michael Brown?

  • Yes, I have.

  • And have you as part of that investigation, have you interviewed some witnesses?

  • Yes, I have.

  • Did you interview a witness named ?

  • And did you do that by your yourself or with another agent?

  • There was another agent assigned with me to do that interview.

  • Where did that interview take place?

  • At residence at the Canfield Green Apartment Complex.

  • How is it, how is it that you knew to contact , do you recall?

  • We were assigned, every team of agents was assigned a specific building and a specific venue. And that particular apartment was in our venue.

  • And so was this then as a part of an area canvas?

  • Yes, it was.

  • And just to be clear, so a canvas is basically you're going door to door and knocking on doors and stopping people when they pull into the parking lot, get out of their cars, asking them if they saw anything or know anything; is that right?

  • That's correct.

  • And so when you went to see this wasn't as a specific purpose to interview

  • That's correct.

  • So when you went to apartment, was someone home?

  • Who was there?

  • We knocked on the door and answered the door.

  • Do you recall what day this was?

  • It was on a Saturday following the shooting, I believe it was on the 18th.

  • So this is a week after the shooting, the shooting happened on the 9th, which was a Saturday, so this would have been the following Saturday?

  • And so when answered the door, were you dressed similarly as to how you are now?

  • Did you identify yourself as an FBI agent?

  • Both of us did.

  • Did he invite you into his apartment?

  • Yes, he did.

  • Was anyone else in the apartment?

  • His fiancee was there and her younger brother was also there.

  • Do you recall the fiancee, is it ?

  • And her younger brother, was he a child, was he teenager, was he a young adult?

  • He was a teenager who did not live there, he was just there for the weekend.

  • Okay. And so did you talk to about whether he was home on August 9th and heard or witnessed anything involving the shooting?

  • Yes, he did.

  • He told you he witnessed a part of it; is that right?

  • That's correct.

  • And specifically, well, let me ask you this, did you record your interview with


  • All right. And did you later listen to that recording?

  • And did that, your recorder accurately record the interview that you had with

  • So your recorder malfunctioned or didn't work for some reason?

  • It was either a mechanical malfunction or operator error.

  • So you don't have a recording of the interview you had with ?

  • That's correct.

  • Shortly after your interview with him, did you, let me ask you this. Did you make notes as you were interviewing him?

  • Yes, we did.

  • And shortly after that, did you go and use your notes and your recollection to prepare a report about that interview?

  • Yes, we did.

  • And did you do that within a couple of days after the interview?

  • So when you made your report, that interview was fresh in your mind?

  • Okay. And so, and did you also have your partner on that day review your report after you completed it in order for him to see if he recalled the same thing that you had recalled?

  • Okay. And so how long were you talking to

    in his apartment, approximately?

  • We were probably there for 35 minutes.

  • And was he cooperative with you?

  • Yes, he was.

  • And so he told you that he saw, he was in his apartment when he heard some shots, correct?

  • And what did he say he did after he heard the shots?

  • He initially heard the shots, he was sitting on the couch when he got up, he heard the shots, he went up and looked out his window and he had a partial view of Canfield Drive from his apartment window.

  • All right. And what did he tell you who, if anybody, did he say he saw when he looked out the window?

  • He saw who he now knows to be Michael Brown in the street walking away from the apartment building, kind of walking going down the street.

  • Okay. There is a laser pointer in front of you, you were gesturing with your hands toward the map, which is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25. Do you recall, does this look familiar, these buildings?

  • Do you know what buildings he was in?

  • , which is right here. (indicating)

  • Okay. And so you had gestured that he saw Michael Brown walking and you went like that?


  • What direction did he see Michael Brown walking?

  • His apartment window would have been right here. He would have seen Mr. Brown walking this direction. (indicating)

  • So he would have been facing west on Canfield Drive walking in a westerly direction if this is west?

  • That's correct.

  • Okay. And did he see any police officers from that vantage point?

  • Initially, no.

  • And what did he say he saw Michael Brown do?

  • He heard the first couple of shots, three shots, went to his window, looked out and saw Mr. Brown walking westward down Canfield Drive. He heard approximately six more shots, saw Mr. Brown grab his torso with one hand and had another hand up, drop to his knee and fall to the ground.

  • And so when you interviewed let me ask you this. Had he just like gotten up out of bed or was he intoxicated or under the influence of something that you thought might make it, might affect his ability to recall what he told you?

  • No, he answered the door, he was alert and willing to answer any questions.

  • Okay. And so he told you that he saw Michael Brown walking away from him. In other words, away from where he was in his apartment. And then in the direction where he would have been walking west on Canfield Drive?

  • Okay. Did you ever go back and actually clarify that with him as far as whether or not he saw Michael Brown moving in the direction, moving in that direction or whether or not Michael Brown was standing still?

  • We clarified that with him at least three times during the interview just to make sure that we understood what he was saying, and the other agent made sure what he was saying.

    He was very clear that he saw Mr. Brown, he now knows it's Mr. Brown, at the time he did not know who it was, walking, walking west on Canfield.

  • And this was after he had heard a series of gunshots, correct?

  • And then he observed him, he heard another series of gunshots, did he tell you if he could see who was firing the weapon?

  • He could not see who was firing the weapon.

  • And then did he say he saw Michael Brown, you said, clutching his torso or holding his torso and then one hand up. I can't recall which hand, you demonstrated. I think you demonstrated your right hand up?

  • That's how he demonstrated it.

  • Okay. And then he went down to one knee and collapsed in the street?

  • Did he tell you then he saw a police officer after that?

  • After Michael Brown had fallen to the ground, he saw an officer approach Michael Brown from the west and approach Michael Brown.

  • And so the officer was coming from the west, was he walking east on Canfield then?

  • Did he approach the body of Michael Brown?

  • And so from vantage point, he could see where Michael Brown came to rest in the street?

  • And after Michael Brown collapsed, he saw the officer walk up towards him?

  • Did you clarify with him that the direction that Michael Brown was traveling, walking, was in the direction from where the officer eventually came?

  • I don't have anything else.

  • The only thing I have, I don't think it was addressed,

  • I didn't ask that, good call.

  • was there at the time, correct?

  • And did you have occasion to speak with her?

  • What was the nature of that conversation?

  • As part of the canvas, we were asking anybody if they saw anything and, urn, talking to

    , he said that he had called her into the living room during the encounter, during the shots. So we asked her specifically, she was in the kitchen, we asked her specifically if she saw anything. She said no. We asked her why, she said well, by the time she had gotten into the living room by the window, it was over.

    She was in the bedroom at the time, he had summoned her into the living room and at that point it was over, she didn't see what happened.

  • You gave her an opportunity to tell you whether or not she saw something and she, in fact, told you she did not?

  • That's all I have. Anybody else have questions?

    I just want to verify the date. This was, this took place on 8/16?

  • It was a Saturday, our interview was the Saturday after the incident took place.

  • The same Saturday that the incident took place?

  • A week later.

  • My math is terrible, but 9 plus 7 was 16. I had to do it in the sky.

    Any other questions for the agent?

    Did you look out the window that they looked out of, did you see the area where Michael Brown was, was he able to see what he reported seeing?

  • Yes. That street was not completely visible from his apartment. You could only see parts of it. So as far as what he was telling us, what he could see, I would believe would be accurate.

  • Okay, thank you.

  • You couldn't see the whole thing.

  • Anyone else?

    You said he could only see part of the road there in Canfield. What exactly was blocking his view?

  • I can't recall if it was the building or a tree there, but all I can recall is the view of Canfield was very limited from his apartment window.

  • Anyone else? All right. This will be the end of the testimony of Special Agent

    . )

    (End of testimony of

  • This is Kathi Alizadeh, October 13th, 10:11 a.m. All 12 grand jurors are present, myself, Sheila Whirley and the court reporter , and we just had a small break after a witness testimony. And I want to make sure we put on the record that there was some questions that were asked after the witness testified about some dates and when certain witnesses were interviewed. And I think what we discussed and kind of clarified is that according to what you've heard so far,

    who is the fiancee of , was interviewed by the County Police on August 9th, the day that Michael Brown was killed.

    And that then Agent and his partner went to their apartment and as a part of an area canvas with no specific purpose of looking for anyone in particular other than any witness that saw this.

    And that he then interviewed on the 16th of August. He also said that

    was present in the apartment at the time and said she didn't see anything.

    And then you all have also heard from a statement that was interviewed by the FBI, like on September 30th or something, and that during that interview she described what she says on the 30th she saw.

    So there was some question about whether or not the FBI knew that the FBI, meaning Agent

    and Agent , whether they knew that had been talked to by agent and his partner, and/or whether or not agent was aware that had been interviewed by the County Police prior to their interview of her.

    And what I explained to you is, to the best of my knowledge and guess would be that they did not know of the other interviews that had taken place, however, I will tell you that's only until the best guess on my part based upon my understanding of how the investigation was going at that time.

    The FBI was working independently of the County Police at that time. And the County Police were not involved in that canvas that took place on the 16th.

    Originally, there was talk that was, they were going to do the canvas together, the County Police and the FBI. And then the FBI said, no, we are going to do the canvas just on our own. So the County Police are not a part of that canvas.

    And so I can clarify this with Detective and, of course, Detective will probably testify again before your investigation is completed, but you certainly can ask him that.

    It is my belief and thought is that probably agent was not aware that

    had been interviewed by County Police when he went to go see, he knocked on their door on the 16th. And then also I would have to verify with Agent and , it is my guess that they were not aware that Agent had seen

    and had spoken to her on the 16th because Agent did not put that in his report because he, according to him, and I discussed this with him, since said she didn't see anything, he didn't include that. It is like he just didn't.

    Whether he should or not is not for me to say, but he just didn't. So I don't think that Agent and Agent were aware that he had talked to when they interviewed on the 30th. I will certainly try to clear that up for you, but that's only my thought and opinion at this point. All right.

    So now, yes.

    To so clarify, on August 9th, Miss was interviewed by Detective not Detective

  • Correct, yes. When I said , what I was thinking of for him to testify about the lack of information flowing back and forth at that time because he was from the get-go, Detective has been in charge of the investigation, but of course, he's only in charge of the county officers. But as the primary detective, he was talking to the FBI, but again, he could clarify this for you, but I believe that at that time on the 16th, there wasn't a lot of back and forth going on. Sharing of information so to speak between the County and the FBI about who had been talked to and what they said and the FBI did this area canvas on their own.

    It was their desire that the County not be involved. They wanted to have their own independent investigation so they said we're going to do this, we don't want County coming with us or being involved in that for whatever reason.

    So you're right, it was that did the interview with

    Okay, at this time we're going to --

    So when two different departments are doing these interviews, so how do they determine like, I mean, it is freshly on their mind on the 9th or three days after, but then when you come behind like weeks later, how beneficial is that?

  • Well, that's going to be up for you all to talk about when you begin your deliberations. If there's a difference in a statement that's given closer to the time and then there's a statement that was done after that, how long after that, what are the circumstances of the statement, what about, you know, these are all things for you to consider. If there are differences, why are there differences, you know.

    Could it be that the first statement was done because it is brief and then as you know, the FBI has come along and Department of Justice have done subsequent interviews that seem to be longer in duration. Are they being more detailed? These are all things that you are going to have to decide for yourself. If there are differences, what do you make of those differences.

    So now we're going to listen to a recorded statement of , and if you will recall we've heard from a who testified that he was in a white Monte Carlo that was driven by her. It was at the scene on Canfield Drive on that day. is here, she will testify when we listen to her statement. The first statement is about three minutes long and was done by St. Louis County police officers, or detectives.

    At this time we'll have cease the recording and I will pass out a transcript of this interview. And so, , you do not need to take down the statement as it is being played and I will give you a copy of the transcript.

    (The interview of is being played at this time.)

  • We just needed to mention that statement that we heard was actually about eight minutes long and it was contained on a disc that is marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17, and it is a file folder on that disc labeled

    The next statement we are going to hear is also a recorded statement on a disc that's marked Grand Jury Number 36.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36 marked for identification.)

  • It is also a recorded statement of

    I do not have a transcript of this statement. And so at this time I can have I will have you pause the recording, but if you can transcribe what you are hearing and we can make a record of that then.

    MS. It is 6:26 p.m. on October 13th. This is special agent at FBI building at 2222 Market Street. I am with DOJ trial attorney , and USA here to interview. Will you state your name.

    MS. MS. And , will you spell your name?

    MS. last name, MS. You just listened to your recorded statement and is the birthday and social security number correct that you gave the detective?

    MS. Yes. MS. Okay.

    , before we get into some additional questions that we have, I just wanted to just go over some preliminary stuff with you.

    When we ask you a question, if for some reason you don't understand the question or you are confused by our asking it, feel free to stop us because we are going to assume that you understood when you answer it. And sometimes we trip over our words and don't make sense anyway, so don't think that you are insulting us by correcting us.

    MS. Okay.

    And all your answers need to be out loud because it is being recorded. There may be a transcript made. So if you nod your head, I may ask is that a yes or is that a no.

    MS. Yes.

    So it is totally normal to do that. If I do that, I'm not doing that to you to be rude, okay?

    And just referenced that you just listened to your statement is about 8 and a half minutes long. We have a transcript that you are following along with. Do you remember hearing that statement and is it fair as much as you remember with what you said?

    MS. Yes.

    Okay. And so we don't want to really make you rehash everything, we just wanted to ask you some follow-up questions from it. You know, everybody has a piece of the puzzle so to speak. We know you only saw, you know, the beginning and the end, we don't want you to think that we're looking for anything and everything possible, just what you, yourself, know, okay.

    So, therefore, we just have some follow-up things for you. And one of the reasons we wanted you to listen to your statement is because it has been seven and a half weeks and as you know, this has been on the news and people talk a lot about it, but our goal is to find out what you, yourself, know, not what you may have heard on the news.

    So a lot of times it helps to refresh your memory and kind of separate out what you said at the time and what you, yourself, versus what you may have heard based upon the news or the police report, does that make sense?

    MS. Yes.

    Okay. Also, we know it is late, you came here from work. At any point you think I've had enough, even though you're in the FBI, feel free to say I've had enough, I don't want to talk any more being, okay?

    MS. Okay.

    This is entirely voluntary. We certainly don't want to force you to be here. Basically we are just looking for what happened and the truth.

    So we have to tell you as I tell everybody that, it's a crime to make false statements to federal agents. So we always say people are very honest people. If you're going to exaggerate or lie, you are better off not saying anything at all then like a lie, okay?

    MS. Okay.

    And so basically, like I said we just want to know what happened. If you assume something or you're guessing at something, or you're talking about what other people heard, that's fine as long as you let us know that you are assuming, okay?

    MS. Okay.

    We just really want to know what you know and what you remember. If you don't remember something, it is fine to say you don't remember it. If you don't know the answer, I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer if you truly do not know.

    MS. Okay.

    All right. So I just want to, uh, so I have some follow-up questions based upon the original statement that you gave. You had said that initially you saw kind of the beginning of the action, correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And then looking in your rear view mirror you ultimately saw the end where Michael Brown ultimately fell and died; is that correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    At the time did you know Michael Brown?

    MS. No, ma'am.

    You have since learned the individual who died is that victim, is that fair to say?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Have you since given your statement, you described the thing, the guy that was with him with the dreads, that is how you described him, do you know his name or do you

    MS. No, ma'am, I actually, I have heard of his name, but I forgot.

    That is fine. We will just keep referring to him as the guy with the dreads.

    MS. Okay.

    We will refer to Michael Brown by his name, is that fair?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    If I do that, will you understand who we are referring to?

    MS. Yes.

    So, you had said in your initial statement that you were driving behind the police car SUV; is that correct?

    MS. Yes.

    Who else was in the car with you.

    MS. One of our friends.

    And who is that? MS. His name is , I don't know the last name.

    Okay. And was there anybody else in the car with you?

    MS. No, ma'am.

    And when you were driving, do you remember if your windows were up or down?

    MS. They were down.

    And you had mentioned that, urn, that the SUV stopped on the side of the two individuals of Michael Brown and the individual with the dreads; is that correct?

    MS. Yes.

    Okay. And you said, once, uh, once the vehicle was stopped, can you describe, do you remember, urn, you described that tussle, do you remember how it started?

    MS. Urn, actually, like I said, as I was behind the police officer, I noticed that he did stop because I was directly behind him, so I had to slow down also.

    Okay. MS. In the process of up to two young men walking, Michael Brown and the friend with the dreads walking down the street, he did stop.

    Okay. MS. Like I said, I don't know what was said, I didn't hear anything, my radio was down and my windows was down.

    Your windows was down, was your radio on?

    MS. At the time, yes, ma'am, but once we stopped, I wanted to know what was going on so I did turn my radio all the way down.

    Okay. MS. It was completely down.

    Now, you mention that you don't know what was said, is there anything that gives you the indication, anything that you saw that you thought something was said?

    MS. Actually, just by the car just rocking back and forth.

    Okay. MS. And that was it. But no, ma'am, I didn't hear anything.

    Before the car started rocking back and forth, did you see any sort of interaction between the guy with the dreads, Michael Brown and the police officer?

    MS. Actually, I did not because how my car sits and how tall the truck was, so I didn't see directly what was going on inside.

    So from your vantage point as soon as you stopped, what's the first thing that you remember seeing?

    MS. Urn, I just remember the car just stopping.

    Okay. MS. And the two, the two young men, just, I didn't see them. So they was kind of out of my vision at the time.

    Okay. At the time that's when you said you looked under and you saw feet moving, kind of tapping?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Okay. And you also said that the guy with the dreads looked like he didn't know what was going on, what do you mean by that?

    MS. Actually, what I mean by that is because had he like proceeded to go, he came back out.

    So the recording can't pick that up, you are kind of saying, you said he proceeded to go, you we are taking about the guy with the dreads?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    He proceeded to go, he was going toward the police car?

    MS. He was actually, it looks like he wanted some help.

    Okay. MS. But then, I don't want help. It was like back and forth. It happened so fast.

    He moved forward really quickly and moved backward.

    MS. He moved back and his eyes kind of got a little big, a little big.

    Okay. And that's what he looked like, the guy with the dreads didn't know what was going on?

    MS. Yes, ma'am. Like probably knew what was going on, but you know, probably didn't, you know, something like that.

    So looks like he was going forward and then stops, like changing his mind now?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, like he's shocked.

    While this is going on, were you able to see Michael Brown?

    MS. No, ma'am, I still wasn't able to see him.

    But you saw his feet at that point; is that correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, I saw a pair of feet just like tapping.

    Okay. Do you know whose feet it was?

    MS. Actually, to be honest, no, ma'am, but I can say the young man with the dreads was towards the back, he was towards the back once I saw come in and out, I just figured that he was towards the back of the truck and wasn't so close to the driver's side of the door.

    Okay. So the only two people on the street you saw Michael Brown and the guy with the dreads?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And so since you're describing the other guy with the dreads, the only other person's feet that could have been was Michael Brown?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Okay. So you describe what you saw these feet they were like moving and tapping, and you said some kind of confrontation?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Why do you say confrontation? MS. Just because of how feet was moving, how the truck was rocking walking.

    Okay. MS. The vehicle was rocking.

    What about how it was rocking? MS. It was just like side by side.

    And this is while the police officer is still in the driver's side?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Okay. And then you said that the guy with the dreads is looking to see what was going on. What do did you mean by that?

    MS. Actually, what I mean by that because, like I said, he was kind of, like he wanted to go, but he don't.

    Like he wanted to go towards the vehicle?

    MS. Towards, probably try to help, you know.

    Did you actually see what he was doing?

    MS. Uh, yes, ma'am, like back and forth.

    Okay. And then while you are describing all of this, this tussling is still going on between Michael Brown and the police officer as far as you can tell?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    That's when you heard the gunshot go off?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And then you said that the suspect got shot back up, you talking about Michael Brown when you said that?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    You said the suspect got shot, what about, what made you say that he got shot?

    MS. Actually, I just heard the gunshots. It was just like when I heard the gun go off, he kind of like came off of the truck.

    Okay. MS. So that's what made me think at the time that he probably was hit at the time.

    And then, how were you able to see when Michael Brown backed up, were you able to see him?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And why were you able to see him, what move allowed from your vantage point to see him?

    MS. Actually, at this time the truck had kind of came back a little bit more, came back on like hit on the brakes a little bit more. I don't know if he was trying to run or not because actually I couldn't see over that way.

    Can you point out for me a little bit, so Michael Brown, you were able to see him?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Right after the shot because he backed up?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And that was because the truck moved a little bit?

    MS. Actually, when he backed up, he kind of backed, at this time he backed all the way up from a distance to where I can just see his body.

    Okay. MS. Like back up.

    Okay. MS. You know.

    You talking about him backing away from the side of the police car?

    MS. Yes, sir.

    The police vehicle? MS. Yes, sir.

    Okay. Then you said he looked amazed?

    MS. Like he was shocked, yes ma'am.

    And then you said, urn, that they both, the guy with the dreads and Michael Brown then ran towards to find out what was happening.

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    At this point is when you start ducking; is that right?

    MS. Right. After I heard the first shot and I see Michael Brown jump out of the car, yes, ma'am, I was terrified. When they start running because actually, they ran past my car, so I didn't know what was going on.

    And that makes sense. They are running past your car and you just heard gunshots and you were terrified?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    You started to duck, correct? MS. Yes, ma'am.

    You said you were able to see that the police officer ran past as well, correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And was there a pause between the time that the boys started running past you and the police officer?

    MS. There actually was. Just because we was trying to get out of the truck at the time. So once we took off running, once Michael Brown and the guy with the dreads took off running, that's when I noticed the police comes out.

    Okay. So there was a little bit of a break?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, just enough time to open up the car door.

    For you to open up the car door?

    MS. No, no, for the police officer to open the car door and get out.

    Did you actually see him open up the car door?

    MS. I could not see from the other side of the car.

    Okay. MS. But once he came from away from the car in my view where I can actually see him.

    You already were down inside the vehicle?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, at that time I was down.

    At any point did you open your car door?

    MS. Oh, no, ma'am, I did not open up my driver's side of the car.

    How about , did he open his door?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, he did.

    Do you know why? MS. Actually to get down. We were scared, terrified. I mean, I can't tell why he did it, but I know he was hanging outside of the car trying to get, you know, shelter or whatnot.

    Okay. And so you said that once you saw the police officer kind of go past you, you said you instantly ducked. (inaudible)

    MS. Yes, ma'am, I was down, my whole head was in the passenger seat. So I'm almost on lap.

    Okay. Obviously, you are terrified.

    MS. Yes, ma'am, my hand is on the steering wheel, my feet is on the brake, I couldn't even put my car in park, that's how quick it happened and I just ducked down.

    Okay. So you are not looking out the window at this point?

    MS. No, ma'am, no, ma'am, I blacked out just a little bit. And then, yeah, just --I blacked out just a little bit. I mean, I don't know why, but I did.

    And you don't how long you blacked out for?

    MS. Actually, it was for a short period of time because once I proceeded to sit up and I looked out my rear view mirror, that's when I saw the end, when actually him running, his back was turned and he turned around.

    I'm going to ask you, that part that you blacked out, you don't know what went on from the time

    MS. No, ma'am, because I'm down.

    Right. MS. Because I'm down.

    As you describe it as blacked out.

    MS. Right.

    Okay. And so you don't know what went on prior to the time where Michael Brown turned around?

    MS. Actually, I was up at that time, yes, ma'am.

    While he was on the ground? MS. Yes, ma'am. MS. Okay. But leading up to that?

    MS. Leading up to that, no, he's running from him with his back from him, with his back from him.

    All right. MS. I do know that.

    But you didn't see any of this go on because you were ducking?

    MS. I was ducking as the police officer came towards my car, I got down, yes, ma'am.

    Okay. And you heard that initial shot from the SUV, correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And then you heard, as you describe, those three shots at the end?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Okay. And you describe that the guy with the dreads came over to the passenger side of your car trying to get in?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And now where in what you just described in the ducking and the blacking out and the looking back up, at what point did the guy with the dreads come over to the car?

    MS. Actually, when I did go out for a little bit, like I said, I just blanked out a little bit, but when I was down, I did open up my eyes. I was still down, and that's when I saw the young man with the dreads, where had the door open, he had it slung open. He was on the curb, but he had --he crawled. You could tell that he crawled. He was in the car and he just basically asked me could I get him away from here because it is crazy.

    Is that what he said? MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Get me away from here, it's crazy?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Do you have a two-door car? MS. Yes, ma'am.

    So when passenger door is kind of opened?

    MS. It's opened wide.

    Okay. MS. Uh-huh.

    So the guy with the dreads kind of crawled over?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    What was your response to him? MS. Actually, I told him to get down. That's all I had, I mean, that was the only thing that came to my mind, just get down.

    Okay. And then Obviously, you didn't let the guy with the dreads in your car?

    MS. No, sir, I did not.

    Why was it that you wouldn't let him in your car?

    MS. Actually, I didn't know what was going on for one and I was actually, didn't have a clue if he had or who had it, I just didn't know. It wasn't something that I was willing to do.

    If he had what? MS. Actually, I didn't know if he had a gun, I didn't know what was going on.

    You didn't know what was going on?

    MS. Actually, I didn't know what was going.

    And so for that reason you didn't allow the guys with the dreads in the car with you?

    MS. Yes, sir. MS. Do you know if he stayed there or he went elsewhere?

    MS. Actually, just for a few minutes, just for a few minutes, like I said, after I told him no, he disappeared.

    Now, I don't know where he went, I wasn't focusing on him. I was trying to see what was going on.

    So I was trying to ask you this, when he said to you get me out of here, it is crazy, and you said, get down. Did he say anything else?

    MS. No, ma'am, he did not.

    Did you guys say you can't get in the car?

    MS. No, ma'am, I did not, get down, that was it.

    Okay. Did you know that he wanted to get in the car?

    MS. Actually, just by what he said, the statement that he made to me.

    I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, how did you let him know that you weren't letting him in the car?

    MS. Actually, for one, I wasn't moving it at the time.

    Okay. MS. So he wasn't going to go anywhere anyway.

    Did say anything to him? MS. No, just get down. We both just hollered the same thing, get down.

    Okay. All right. At some point you looked up and you were looking in your rear view mirror?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    So everything that you observed after that was with regard to Michael Brown and the police officer was through your rear view mirror?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And your review mirror is for reverse, correct?

    MS. Is it reverse?

    I don't want to misstate it.


    MS. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

    (Inaudible) So when you are looking in your review mirror, you said you saw the male turn around and basically stop, this is Michael Brown, correct.

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    That's when you heard two or three more gunshots, and Michael Brown went down to the ground.

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And then after that you, you drive away?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    You describe yourself at that point, were you still terrified?

    MS. My leg was shaking.

    Okay. And so how did you manage to driveway then?

    MS. With , just calm me down, my legs were moving.

    Okay. MS. And I just cried because, like I said, I've never seen nothing like that in my life.

    Okay. And so you describe and you drove away, urn, and there was another truck, do you mean a police SUV.

    MS. Yes, ma'am. In the process of me, after the incident had happened, probably about two or three cars pulled up and they came towards my car. So I had to basically yell, like somebody is in here, you know, because he was real, real close.

    So just so I can understand. So you started to drive away and as you were driving

    MS. No, actually at this time, I didn't even get a chance to even move at this time. They were coming towards the way, towards me.

    You were stopped in the middle of street because you had to stop?

    MS. Yes, ma'am, right at the curb, yes, ma'am.

    Okay. MS. Right by the complex.

    And then you drove away? MS. Yes, ma'am, I did.

    All right. How did it come to you that you then met with the St. Louis County Police Detective?

    MS. Actually, I stay in that area at the time and my mom basically, basically got the news. So she came to see was her daughter okay. So in the process of seeing was her daughter okay, I was up in the house, the house is right before you get to Canfield Green.

    Okay. MS. And one of the young men, like I said, I don't know nobody over there or whatnot, but he the one that brought the police to me. The FBI, like I said, I don't know but they were the ones in the car, I guess. Somebody was out there and probably remember my car or something because he came directly to me.

    The police did? MS. The FBI,

    Okay. He's St. Louis County. MS. Okay, okay, the detective.

    So he came to you? MS. Yes, ma'am. I was on the front of the neighbors. I don't even know the people, but they stayed in the house right there.

    Okay. You said something about brought him to you?

    MS. Actually, a young man, I mean, like I said, I don't know anybody that stays in Canfield Green. I didn't know him exactly.

    What do you mean exactly? MS. I've probably seen him like around in the complex, but I don't know him. As talking to him on like a daily basis.

    Okay. Is it fair to say that what you know that happened that day is limited to that initial, you describe the confrontation or tussle at the car, correct?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    And then you saw through your rear view mirror at the end when Michael Brown was facing the police officer, you heard the shots and he went down to the ground?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Okay. Just to be clear, you heard that first shot when the tussle was going on at the side of the police SUV?

    MS. Yes, sir.

    And you saw those final two or three shots?

    MS. Yes, sir.

    There wasn't any other shots in between?

    MS. Not to my knowledge. I'm just going to be honest, that's probably when I was blacked out.

    Okay. MS. Once, I raised up --

    And you mentioned, I know that that you were ducked down, and you basically was trying to get down as low as you could, is that fair.

    MS. Yes, sir.

    But you mention that you were able to see the police officer run by your car?

    MS. Yes, sir.

    And could you tell at that time where his gun was or could you see any of that?

    MS. Actually, when he ran by it was drawn.

    Okay. Did he have it at his side?

    MS. No, he had it drawn up toward, I'm going to say aimed.

    Okay. But at that time you didn't hear any other shots?

    MS. Not to my knowledge.

    You want to take a break? We can we take a break. MS. Yeah, I have a couple of questions.

    If we with can, we will take a break for just a second.

    MS. Sure. I am going to leave this on because it makes it easier, okay?

    MS. Okay.

    You mentioned early on you turned the radio down to see if you could hear anything?

    MS. Yes.

    Anything, you hear anything from Michael Brown or the officer or the guy with the dreads, other than what you've described?

    MS. No, ma'am.

    Okay. And right after that first shot when you said Michael Brown stepped back and what did he do right after that?

    MS. He took off running.

    Okay. Did he go back to his car, did you see him briefly going toward the car or did he immediately run away?

    MS. He immediately took off running down the street.

    Was there anything else, ? MS. Sorry.

    The guy with the dreads? MS. You say you saw Michael Brown, you saw the guy with the dreads just when took a step back, you saw him look?

    MS. Yes, ma'am. MS. When he came back, what, did he just stay there, did he move?

    MS. No, actually, when he went forward, then he came back, he actually took off.

    MS. Okay. MS. He starts to take off to get away.

    MS. But your focus is still on that car?

    MS. Yes, ma'am. MS. Now, when he took off to get away, was it before or after the gunshot?

    MS. It was after, it was right after.

    MS. Okay. MS. It was right after the first shot.

    MS. You see the guy with the dreads?

    MS. Okay. MS. Go in like, and then come back?

    MS. Uh-huh. MS. Gunshot, or does he come back? At what point was the gunshot?

    MS. Actually, it was the shot and then it was like back, once he came forward, it was like back.

    MS. You saw both of them at the same time?

    MS. No, ma'am. I saw the one with the dreads come back. Now, that's when, when he came back and he kind of like hesitant, that's when I saw Michael Brown.

    MS. Okay. MS. At the car and then that's when they proceed to take off.

    MS. Together. MS. Actually, the one with the dreads kind of got away just a little bit extra.

    MS. Okay.

    Okay. When is next time you see the guy with the dreads then?

    MS. After I saw him on the side of the car, on the news.

    Okay. MS. On the news.

    We don't have any more questions for you. I just want to ask you, is there anything that you want to add that we think we should know that we haven't asked you or they didn't ask you that day?

    MS. No, ma'am.

    You feel like you have given us all the information that you know?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Anything you think is important that we've missed at all?

    MS. Uh, not to my knowledge. I gave you all I have.

    Okay. Do you think we have treated you fairly?

    MS. Yes, ma'am.

    Did we force you to say anything that you didn't want to say?

    MS. No.

    We didn't make you any promises about anything?

    MS. No.

    Okay. So you feel comfortable? MS. Yes.

    Well, thank you so much for your time, we appreciate it.

    MS. We will end the interview.

    (That was the end of the interview.)

  • This is Kathi Alizadeh, it is about 11:03. We just took a pause for the recording while we listened to the statement of the Department of Justice and FBI and U.S. attorneys did with and then I just had a brief question about your lunch break and that's why we paused again. So now we are ready to hear from of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh, all grand jurors, , and would you introduce yourself to the grand jurors for us, please?

  • Okay. , you know why we're here?

  • This is about the Michael Brown shooting. Where do you live?

  • Actually, I say in Northwinds Apartments.

  • All right. Is that where you lived on August 9th 2014?

  • I don't believe Northwinds is on this map. You see this map, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, does it look familiar as far as the Canfield Green Apartments are concerned?

  • Okay. Which way would Northwinds Apartments be based on this map, if you could tell us? If you can't, that's fine.

  • You can't really tell on this map?

  • I'm going to ask you some more things about the map, so I want to show you how this works. This is a pen light, I guess, and you push that button and you can direct it wherever you it to go, okay. Can you push the button? Yeah, all right.

    So you live in Northwinds which is, is that east of the Canfield Green Apartments?

  • Urn, yes, it is towards the back by Glen Owen.

  • This would be east and this would be west.

  • I'm closer to Glen Owen.

  • Glen Owen. I don't think that's on the map either. So tell us what you were doing on August the 9th, what did you do that morning when you first woke up?

  • Actually, got up for the day.

  • What did you have planned?

  • Actually, just going to ride around and just enjoy the day on a Saturday.

  • Okay. You and who, who were you with?

  • And nobody else was in the car?

  • And you were driving that day?

  • What type of automobile were you in?

  • Urn, I had a '99 Monte Carlo.

  • What color?


  • It is white.

  • It is white, okay. Is it a two-door?

  • It is a two-door.

  • I think most Monte Carlos are two doors. I guess it was a two-door white Monte Carlo?

  • When did you first see the police officer in this case?

  • Actually, I saw the police officer as I was coming across the bridge coming towards the end of Northwinds going towards Canfield Drive.

  • You don't know what street that would have been?

  • Actually, that would have been Glen Owen.

  • That's Glen Owen?

  • Which, I don't think we see on this map. So you saw him, he was driving coming from the Northwinds area also?

  • Urn, yes, ma'am, just like right, just actually right past the little bridge thing.

  • Okay. Was he driving, I don't want to talk at the same time you talk, so forgive me if I did.

    Was he driving fast when you saw him?

  • Just normal?

  • He didn't have red lights and sirens?

  • As if he was answering a police call or anything like that?

  • Okay. So did he appear to be alone?

  • And what made you notice the police car?

  • Urn, actually, when I was coming, like I said, across the bridge, I saw him coming out of the street. One of the side streets, I really don't know what the side street right there, but he was coming, proceeding to turn to come the same direction that I was going.

  • What direction were you going?

  • Actually, I was going toward, this time I am going towards Canfield, like going towards West Florissant.

  • Okay. So this is Canfield Drive, does that look familiar?

  • Which way were you traveling?

  • Urn, actually

  • Show us with the light.

  • I was coming approximately, like I said, I believe, I can't tell which way is West Florissant.

  • This is West Florissant?

  • That's West Florissant. Actually, I was coming from this direction, going wards West Florissant.

  • Can you tell us, is it on this map at the time that you noticed the officer pulling out? If it's not, just tell us.

  • Actually, I really cannot tell.

  • Was the officer in front of you though?

  • Yes, ma'am, he was.

  • So at some point the officer's car stopped, correct?

  • Were you behind the officer when the officer's car stop?

  • Yes, ma'am, I sure was.

  • Where about was that on the map?

  • Probably like right in between the apartment complex. Just like right actually he fell out is actually where I stopped, probably right up in here closer to the apartment complex.

  • Okay. But you're not absolutely certain looking at this map?

  • So when you first saw the officer stop, what did you observe?

  • Actually, I just observed there are two gentlemen walking down the street.

  • Which way were they walking?

  • They was walking my direction, going back towards Northwinds.

  • So if this is West Florissant, which way were they walking?

  • They was walking this way.

  • East. And they were in the middle of the street?

  • Can you describe the two gentleman you saw walking in the middle of the street?

  • Can I get up?

  • Actually, right behind the police officer, they was just walking.

  • Directly down the middle lane.

  • Just kind of casually walking?

  • Yes, ma'am, not running.

  • Tell us what they looked like?

  • Actually, one guy was a pretty big gentleman, tall in size, the other one was kind of probably my height, probably a little bit shorter, I don't know, with dreads and basically that was it.

  • Okay. And the guy that was taller, was he a lot taller than you?

  • Oh, yes, ma'am.

  • Was he bigger?

  • Yes, ma'am, bigger and a lot taller.

  • Do you recall what he was wearing?

  • Actually, I can remember khaki shorts, urn, I know he had on a baseball cap.

  • Uh, the baseball cap was dark in color.

  • Did he have it on when he started walking?

  • Yes, ma'am it was like a dark, dark hat, like a baseball cap.

  • Okay. And you know that person to be Mike Brown as we stand here today talking about it?

  • Okay. And so we'll refer to him as Mike Brown?

  • So Mike Brown and the other guy Dorian Johnson, walking down the middle of street and what happens?

  • Actually, as they was walking down the middle of the street, that's when the officer stopped in front of me and stopped behind him. In the process of them walking down the middle of the street, that's when I saw the officer actually stop the vehicle. It wasn't a jerk stop, it was a slow stop at the time.

  • Was he driving

  • , can I get you just in case, you are soft spoken because the microphone is recording is at the desk, so unless Sheila needs you to stand up and demonstrate something, would you be good enough to sit?

  • That way we are getting your voice picked up because you are kind of soft, sorry.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) When you saw him walking, the two walking and the officer stopped, what kind of car was the officer in?

  • It was white.

  • A white SUV with police?

  • It was like a marked police car?

  • When you saw that car stopped, was the car stopped just driving in the natural, you know, down the lane stopping or did it stop some other way?

  • Oh, no, it was straight down the lane.

  • Straight down the lane. And what happened at that time when you saw the car stop, I mean, did he appear to be talking to anybody?

  • Urn, yes, ma'am, but I didn't hear anything.

  • I didn't hear anything.

  • Okay. And then what happened next?

  • After he, after the actual stop, urn, quick seconds, it wasn't really a long period of time and that's when, urn, I saw the truck or the SUV slightly go like in reverse. I saw the reverse lights on and it came to like the, the two guys are right here and they like, like jump back. He put it in reverse, but it went back.

  • And that's when it went to an actual stop just like that, and the truck shook just a little bit, but you could tell that somebody pressed down on the brake really hard.

  • So at first when the car stopped, it was just driving the normal lane, you were behind the car and there looked to be some conversation between the officer and the two people walking down the middle

  • --of the street. Then the car drives away and goes in reverse?

  • No, it never drove away. I guess as the two suspects start to actually keep proceeding walking.

  • That's when it looks like he's trying to stop them from walking away from the truck.

  • I see. And they're walking away, so he has to go in reverse to get up to them?

  • Did he hit them, hit either one of them?

  • Actually, I couldn't tell if he hit them or not. I just know that the truck actually stopped at, like a hard stop at that time.

  • Was the car straight as if it was going toward West Florissant or some other way?

  • Actually, when it went back to stop them again, it was like in a catty-corner.

  • Like an angle?

  • Yes, ma'am, like an angle.

  • And then what happened?

  • And then after that, that's when I notice that the truck got to rocking back and forth.

  • Was anybody at the truck from the outside?

  • Oh, yes, ma'am.

  • Who was at the truck?

  • Urn, it was Michael Brown at the time.

  • You know his name as Michael Brown?

  • What did you see, actually observe?

  • Actually, I didn't see anything for, just feet, a set of feet just moving up under the truck.

  • Your car is still behind?

  • Yes, ma'am, still stuck behind.

  • Okay. And when the officer drove back at the diagonal and hit the brake real hard, was he close to hitting you, your car?

  • Actually, he was close enough, but he was like right there to where I couldn't even move. So I thought, you know, as it was coming, you know, I was kind of shocked if he would have hit my car, but he didn't.

  • Were you concerned that he was going to hit it the way he came back?

  • Yes, rna' am, I had to swerve over.

  • You swerved over?

  • No, rna' am, I was there.

  • You stopped?

  • So you see feet and what else?

  • Actually, I just see the feet like tapping, like tapping type of.

  • Did the car move?

  • Actually, it was rocking back and forth, like side to side. I'm not going to say back and forth, I'm going to say side to side.

  • Were you are windows down?

  • Could you hear anything?

  • No, ma'am, at that time, no, ma'am.

  • You didn't hear the officer or the person outside the window say anything?

  • And Mike Brown was right at the officer's driver down window?

  • Did that windowed seem to be down?

  • Oh yes, it was down.

  • Could see his hands or see just his feet?

  • I just saw feet.

  • You couldn't see the top of his head or anything?

  • And then what?

  • And then after that, that's when I, short period of time, of like some seconds went past, I heard the first gunshot.

  • Okay. Did you just hear one shot?

  • At that time, yes, ma'am.

  • And where was Michael Brown and the officer when you heard the shot?

  • He was still at the window.