The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (All say good morning.)

    WITNESS 34, of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Now, this is Kathi Alizadeh. It is October 16th, 2014, it is 9:14. This is the first of the day. We had a little late start today. I'm present, with Sheila Whirley from the prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors are present, as is the court reporter and we're getting ready to hear from the first witness of the day who has been sworn.

  • You and I met with your attorney and Sheila prior to you coming in here today; is that right?

  • That's right.

  • And remember that I told you that the court reporter is taking things down and there will be a recording, but before we start the recording I'm going to have you introduce yourself. Do you remember me telling you that?

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • And then I told you that after we start the recording, we are going to refer to you by a number instead of your name, okay?

  • And your number is going to be 34, okay?

  • So could you please state your name for the grand jurors?

  • And how old are you, sir? A

  • And whereabouts do you live?

  • Okay. (Redacted)

  • How long have you lived in the St. Louis area?

  • I have been in St. Louis since

  • Do you live in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • No, I have a

  • And what do you do, what kind of work to do you do for a living?

  • Sort of like work.

  • Okay. All right.

    Now having been identified, I will have the court reporter start the recording and then we will have you, we will refer to you by your number, okay?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Sir, prior to the recording being started, you identified yourself and for the recording purposes we're going to refer to you as Witness Number 34; is that right?

  • That's all right.

  • And, sir, just back up a little bit and restate what you already said, how old a man are you? A

  • And you live ?

  • All right. Are you familiar with the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • Part of it, yes.

  • You've been there before?

  • I'm going to show you Grand Jury Number 25, which is a map, an aerial view of some streets and buildings. This being Canfield Drive, do you recognize that as being streets and buildings that will be Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • Okay. And, sir, do you remember August 9th of this year, which was a Saturday?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • And earlier that morning, did anything special happen?

  • Prior to what you ended up seeing that you are here for today, prior to the shooting, did anything unusual or special happen in the morning?

  • Before the shooting?

  • Uh, well, nothing. I was on my way to work and I had to come back and get it.

  • Okay. So you


  • Uh-huh, yeah.

  • And so you said you were leaving for work?

  • Do you remember about what time of day it was that you were leaving for work?

  • I don't know exactly what time, but it was in the morning.

  • And do you recall this being a Saturday?

  • As far as I can remember, yes.

  • Was it light outside?

  • Yes, it was light.

  • Okay. And how was it that you were leaving for work? A

    I turned around to come back the Canfield Apartments.

  • So you were all the way to and then you had to return around and come back to the Canfield Apartments?

  • When you were coming back to the apartments, when you got to the apartment complex, were you coming from West Florissant or were you coming the back way?

  • No, I was coming from West Florissant.

  • Okay. If this is West Florissant over here, and I'm motioning to the left of the map.

  • You can't see West Florissant on this map.

  • Right, okay.

  • You came in from this direction?

  • Right, right.

  • What kind do you have, at least back then, what were you driving?

  • Okay. And is this a ?

  • Right, it is a

  • Does it have anything on


  • And what about, is it a four-door or two-door,


  • And about what year is it? A

  • And so when you were coming back to the Canfield Green Apartments, were you driving that ?

  • And you were driving this direction on Canfield Drive? (indicating)

  • Okay. Now, right here in front of you is a laser pointer.

  • And there's a little gray button right there. So if you press it, you can use that to show on the map.

    So as you were, let me ask you this, were you with somebody in your


  • Yes, one of the guys that work with me.

  • Is this guy somebody that is a friend of yours?

  • Well, I call him a friend. I help him out a lot.

  • Do you know his name?

  • , he goes by. I never question him too much, he never likes me getting into his business too much.

  • You call him ?

  • And you've worked with him though?

  • Yeah, I've worked with him several times.

  • So was he going to work with you that day?

  • Yes, uh-huh, right.

  • Do you know is he African-American or is he Caucasian?

  • African-American.

  • Okay. So is just a name you call him?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • So as you entered, were coming into the Canfield Green Apartment Complex, did you see anything unusual?

  • Yes, when we got turned into Canfield, coming up Canfield, all of the sudden, I call it a truck, but it is like a van, more like a van, you know what I'm saying? And it is parked kind across the street and there is a car in front of us, okay. And we saw the police and a young man struggling.

  • Okay. So let me stop you. Use that pointer and show me was the police car on Canfield Drive on this main street?

  • Yeah, it was headed back towards West Florissant. It is on this street. If this is West Florissant, it is on this street here. I can't think of exactly whereabout in there, but somewhere. But anyway, his car was headed back towards West Florissant.

  • The police car was. There was one car right in front of me when I was there. My car there, I'm just not saying definitely this is the spot. My car there and another car right there and the police car right there headed back that way.


  • Okay. So he was, you were facing the police car?

  • And his police car was facing you?

  • I'm sorry, say that again?

  • Was the police car then facing?

  • Right, right, right, like coming back toward West Florissant.

  • Okay. Now, was this a marked police car?

  • It had police on it, Ferguson Police.

  • You could tell by looking at it, it was a police car?

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • And did it have like a light bar on it, do you remember?

  • Yeah, yeah, it was one of the regular police cars of Ferguson, like the van thing like. You know, it looked like a SUV or something like that. I'm not for sure.

  • Were the lights on the car going, like the red and blue lights, do you recall them being on?

  • No, I don't, I don't recall that.

  • Okay. So was that police car when you first saw it, was it moving or was it standing still?

  • It was sitting still, but it was kind of like across the street so nobody can really get by, you know what I'm saying?

  • Okay. So did you have to stop your car?

  • Yes, yes, we had to stop.

  • And the car in front of you, was it stopped also?

  • Yes, it was stopped.

  • Do you remember anything about the car in front of you?

  • It was white and he turned around and then I remember, I had to be close to one of those exits there, one of those because I turned around in one of those exits and went back out. And then I came around to the back part and came in off of Chambers, I came in off of Chambers back there.

  • So we'll get to that part. That happens in a little bit, right?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • So you don't turn around immediately?

  • No, no, I don't turn around immediately.

  • Okay. So there is a white car in front of you?

  • And could you see the people in the white car, people or person?

  • I wasn't really paying attention to them, you know, I don't remember seeing them. I was looking at the police truck really.

  • What did you see at the police truck?

  • Well, the police and the young man, they were struggling. The young man was standing outside the window and the police inside the window. And he had ahold of the young man, and the young man had ahold of him, and they are struggling with one another.

  • Okay. So could you see the police officer inside the truck?

  • I could see him, but not clearly, you know, I could see him.

  • And how many police officers were inside the truck?

  • As far as I could tell, one.

  • Now you say there was a young man standing outside the truck?

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • Was he the only other person you saw outside or around the truck?

  • Yes, he was the only person that I really saw, you know, by the police.

  • Can you describe anything about the man that was standing outside the truck?

  • Uh, as far as I could tell he was a young man, tall, you know, and like I say, at the time, you know, like I couldn't really see him clearly, you know what I'm saying? I could see he was a black young male standing there. I turned to Mr. , I said, man, you see this, we've got to get out of here.

    We didn't leave immediately, you know what I'm saying? I didn't want to get blocked in. I had an appointment to be at, you know what I'm saying?

  • Okay. Now, when you say that they were struggling.

  • And you said he had ahold of the officer's shirt and the officer had ahold of his shirt?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • Okay. Was the officer sitting in the driver's seat of the police car?

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • All right. And as best you could tell, was the police officer' window down?

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • So each one is reaching through the window?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • Did you see anything else going on in this struggle?

  • The next thing I heard was a shot, pow, and then the young man took off running.

  • When they were struggling, did you see anybody, either one of them punching or hitting the other one?

  • It looked like, looked like they were going at it because I could see the young man, you know, I could see him hitting at the policeman and the policeman, you know, as far as I could tell was going like this. And it looked like he was going for his gun, you know what I'm saying? So I was like.

  • Okay. So when you say it looked like he was going

  • I say looked like it, I'm not for sure, I'm not for sure.

  • Sure. And that's what we want to make sure you describe why you think that.

  • What was he doing that made you think

  • Because like when he leaned over like this, I see his right hand disappear, you know, and when we heard the shot, that's when I said, hey, it is time for me to go. You know, I turned around, like I said, one of those driveways down there it is to the left, because I was headed on West Florissant is from behind.

    I was going up this way, I turned around in one of them driveways. I see people standing out and stuff like that. And then I backed out and I headed out. As I was leaving, I heard three more shots as I was leaving. I didn't see them, I heard three more shots as I was leaving.


  • Let's go back to the point where you are still on the street.

  • Did you ever get out of your car?

  • Okay. So you're still, yes.

    It is really helpful, there is a lot of he, he went for his gun, if we could use the officer's name, as we know now Michael Brown, it would really help.

  • I'm sorry, I couldn't hear a word.

  • If you could, maybe you can report it better.

  • Okay. You know what, what I'm kind of letting him do is to kind of let him narrate what happened and then I'm going to go back hopefully and clarify when he says this, who are you are talking about.


  • If I don't make it clear to anybody, please raise your hand and ask.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So, sir, what the was referring to when you say he did this and he did that and he did this and he did that.

  • We don't know which he you are talking about.

  • So the police officer was a man, correct?

  • And the guy outside the truck, he was also a man?

  • Did you know, when you saw the man at the truck.

  • Outside the truck?

  • Had you ever seen him before that day?

  • No, I haven't.

  • Was he white or African-American?

  • African-American.

  • Could you tell whether the officer was white or African-American?

  • Okay. So do you now know that the guy outside the truck, do you know what his name is?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • What do you know now his name was?

  • Michael Brown.

  • Let's use his name, even though you didn't know him back then.

  • And that way we will know, we will be clear on who is doing what. Had you ever seen that police officer before?

  • No, I haven't.

  • Do you know any Ferguson police officers?

  • No, I don't.

  • Do you know that officer's name now?

  • No, I still don't know his name. I heard it on TV, like I say, it don't stick with me, you know.

  • So for now let's call him the police officer?

  • And then we will talk about the other man being Michael Brown, okay?

  • So when you say, let's go back then just to clarify. Michael Brown had his hand on the shirt of the officer?

  • And the officer had his hands on Michael Brown's shirt?

  • As far as I could tell, looks like both of them had ahold of each other.

  • Okay. And you describe somebody is punching or doing punching motions, which one was doing the punching or both?

  • I saw Michael punching a couple times through the window, I would say a few times.

  • Okay. And did you ever see the officer punching Michael?

  • No. It seemed like, first when hitting and stuff and the officer hand disappeared, I saw the officer hand disappear and I heard a shot, that was it.

  • Okay. About how long from the time you came around here to see the officer, when you came around and first saw the truck, was Michael Brown already at the driver's --

  • He was already there at the truck. They was right in the middle of the street.

  • Okay. When you first saw them, were they already struggling?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • So for the time you first saw them until you heard the gunshot.

  • How long did you see that struggle?

  • To me it look like they struggle before the officer got his hand on his gun. They struggle probably about, I don't know what, as far as I could see two or three minutes, I say two or three minutes.

  • Okay. And from what you could see.

  • And I'm asking you to give me an assumption, and if you can't, then say I couldn't really tell you.

  • Okay, all right.

  • Did it look like one person was winning the struggle or one person had the advantage in the struggle or was it even?

  • I really can't answer that because like it was happening so fast. And like I told you, you know, if I can't tell the story right away, sometimes I forget things, you know, so I don't want to put that, but as far as I could tell, you know, like Michael hit him a few times. He had ahold of Mike real close through the window and the officer, both of them struggle to hit one another.

    And I see Michael hit him a couple times and then all of the sudden I see the officer lean over, one of his hands disappear and then the guy I was with , I heard a shot, pow, and Mike Brown took off running.

  • Did you ever see the officer's gun when you heard that pow?

  • I didn't see it when I heard the pow, I heard the gun once the officer got out of the truck.

  • Okay. So when you heard the pow, you didn't see the gun outside the car?

  • No, no, no, no, I didn't see it outside the car. All I heard was a pow. I was in the midst of getting out of there then.

  • Okay. And when you heard the pow, is that when you're like, okay, I got to get out of here?

  • Oh, yeah, I said it was time to go. As soon as we got room enough to turn around, we left.

  • But you saw some things before you got turned around?

  • Before I got turned around, yes.

  • So let's go back now. From the time of the pow, the gunshot. Did you recognize that as a gunshot, had you ever heard a gunshot before?

  • Oh, yes, yes, I recognize the gunshot.

  • Okay. You just heard the one at that point?

  • At that point in time, yeah.

  • And so what did Michael Brown do when you heard pow?

  • He took off running, and then the officer got out of his truck and the officer had his gun down to his side like that. Looked like the officer was reaching up to his thing he had on his shirt that he talked through, and then the kid ran a piece off. And he stopped, he was behind a car, looked like he had both of his hands on the car.


  • When you say he, are you talking --

  • Michael Brown.

  • And then the officer was coming towards him and then look like Michael Brown started coming back towards the officer, right. And then that's the last I saw of him, right. And then I was turned around like this, I was backing out, turned around, I seen it was clear, I took off. I heard three more shots right before I started forward, like pow, pow, pow, like that. And that was the last that I saw until I heard the rest on the news.

  • Okay. So let's go back then from the time that you saw Michael Brown start to run away, which direction was he running?

  • He was coming back this way. Michael Brown, say if the police car was sitting right there, he was coming back this way and then there was another car sitting like here or something, I'm not for sure, but that's where he stopped at. And I said to myself in my head, you know, I think that kid probably got hit, man. (indicating)

  • Hit, what do you mean hit, by a car?

  • Got shot, got shot.

  • Got shot. Okay. When you say, man, that kid probably got hit?

  • You mean Michael Brown?

  • I mean Michael Brown.

  • Okay. So let's go step by step here. So when you saw Michael Brown turn, run away from the police car.

  • Did he stay in the street or did he run to a building?

  • Right in the middle of the street.

  • Running down the middle of the street?

  • You said saw the officer get out of his car?

  • Did the officer get out of his car right away or was there a few moments before he got out or do you recall?

  • As far as I can recall, after Michael Brown took off running, the officer got out of his car. It was pretty quick, you know what I'm saying? I couldn't say he sit there a long time, it was pretty quick he got out of his car.

  • Okay. I'm just guessing, you tell me if I'm wrong. So if Michael Brown started running.

  • By the time the officer got out of his car, Michael Brown had a little bit of a head start?

  • He wasn't that far away from him as far as I could remember. Michael Brown probably run about two and a half car lengths or maybe three, something like that.

  • Okay. And so you said the officer had his gun when he got out of the car?

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • Where was his gun, in his hand?

  • Yeah, he had it in his hand down by the side.

  • All right. And you used your right hand, do you recall it being his right hand?

  • As far as I can tell. When he got out of the door, he's in front of me and he had the gun down to the side of his leg like this, and you know, watching which way they run and he started to chase Michael Brown too. (indicating)

  • Okay. So when you say he started to chase Michael Brown.

  • Let's clarify also. Was Michael Brown running, was he walking?

  • He was running. And then it looked like he couldn't go no further, he stopped and put his hand on the back of the car. And I recall that car was brown or gold or something like that, as far as I can recall.

    It looked like Michael Brown, when he's coming toward Michael Brown, Michael Brown took his hands off the car and was coming towards the officer.

  • Okay. So when you saw Michael Brown running away.

  • Could you tell if he had been shot? Could you see anything?

  • I couldn't tell if he had been shot. That's when I said, well, he must have got hit because that's all the further he ran. I know if somebody shot at me, I would run further than that.

  • You know what I'm saying?

  • So you only are guessing that he might have been hit because he didn't keep running?

  • Right, he might have been hit from the first shot in the car.

  • So from the time the officer got out of his car, and you said he chased Michael Brown, so describe how he was moving, was he running, was he walking?

  • The officer?

  • The officer, can I stand up?

  • The officer kind of got out of the car, he is doing this over here, looks like he was talking through his thing and Michael Brown was running probably from here to that young lady there. And he's coming behind him and look like Michael Brown just got tired all at once or couldn't run no further, put his hand on the back of the car.

    And then the police still coming at him, he took his hand off the car and was walking towards the police, I guess, it was walking or running, I'm not sure, but he was coming towards the officer and that's the last I saw.

  • Okay. When you saw the officer, you said you saw him chasing Michael Brown, but what you did was kind of like, I'm doing this? (indicating)

  • It was a trot.

  • Yeah, a trot.

  • So you describe that as a trot?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • He had his gun down at his side.

  • Did you ever see him once he got out of the car, did you ever see the officer point his gun at Michael Brown or in Michael Brown's direction?

  • Not after he got out of the car.

  • You never saw that?

  • I never saw that.

  • Okay. Did you ever hear the officer say anything?

  • I wasn't close enough to hear.

  • What about Michael Brown, did you ever hear him say anything?

  • No, I couldn't hear him say anything.

  • How about at the truck, could you hear yelling cursing

  • No, I couldn't hear nothing.

  • When you saw Michael Brown, you said he ran a good piece or a piece, and then he stopped and he put his hands on the back of the car?

  • Was this a car that was in the roadway?

  • Yes, it was parked back towards West Florissant the car was.

  • Okay. Did it appear that it was parked out in the street?

  • It was stopped like somebody stayed there.

  • Like somebody else who had to stop?

  • No, there was no one in that car, I remember that.

  • Okay. You didn't see anyone?

  • I didn't see anyone in that car.

  • Let's be clear on this. Could you see inside the car and say no one was in it?

  • It was clear. Usually you see a shadow. I was further enough away from the car if someone was sitting in there, I probably could have seen a shadow. I didn't even see an shadow from someone sitting in it. So I can't say 100 percent there was someone in there or not.

  • So you didn't see anybody in that car?

  • No, I didn't see anybody in that car.

  • You think it was a brown or gold car?

  • Right, it was a brown or yellow car.

  • Was it regular car or was it a SUV or a van?

  • It look something like a Mercury, you know, like one of the older Mercuries. I'm not for sure it is even a Mercury or not, maybe a Ford. It was something on this side of the street headed this way. (indicating)

  • Okay. And so, and the way you described it that he put, Michael Brown put both of his hands on the back of that car?

  • Right, right, uh-huh.

  • Now, we know Michael Brown was a tall guy, big guy?

  • When you say the back of the car, was it like on the trunk area?

  • Right, it was on the trunk.

  • So was he leaned over at all?

  • Right, right, he had his hands on the trunk. (indicating)

  • All right. And so how long in seconds or minutes, if it was minutes, did he stay there, Michael Brown, stay there with his hands on the trunk of that car?

  • As far as I know maybe a minute and a half, two minutes maybe.

  • When he was staying there with his hands on the trunk of the car, did the officer continue to move toward him?

  • The officer continued towards him.

  • Was the officer firing his weapon as he was moving towards him?

  • No, I didn't see him fire.

  • And then you said at some point you see Michael Brown walk towards the officer or come towards the officer?

  • So can you describe how he was coming, running, walking, trotting, staggering, stumbling?

  • He was walking towards the officer, but it wasn't trotting. Can I get up?

  • Say he was the officer, and he has got his hands like that, so the officer started coming toward him, so he got off the trunk and he was coming towards the officer like that. (indicating)

  • Okay. So when he was, had his hands on the trunk.

  • Was he totally behind the car?

  • Yeah, yeah, he's behind the car. But the right on the edge. Say this is the car there and that's West Florissant over there, he was like on this side, you know what I'm saying? That side was toward the curb and he didn't have to walk too far around the car.

  • So when he had his hands on the trunk, would he had been facing the officer at that point?

  • So when he was running away, at some point then he had to turn to get behind that car and put his hands on the car?

  • Excuse me, as he's running away, looked like he got tired, and he did like that. He just got turned like that. (indicating)

  • After a minute or two, or whatever, you said he had his hands on the back of the car?

  • On the trunk of the car, did he then stand back up and come towards the officer?

  • He never did go down. He was just standing behind the car. The officer --

  • I stand back up, that was my choice of words, that was wrong. I meant, you know, you talked about he was leaning over a little bit.

  • So did he come back up standing upright and then move towards the officer or did he stay in that leaning position?

  • He wasn't bent over coming towards the officer, as far as I could tell. That's about the last I saw of him.

  • Okay. When he was coming toward the officer, and I know you're in the process at this point of thinking, how can I get out of here, right?

  • And there was a car in front of you and you were worried about hitting that car, right?

  • Right, uh-huh, right. Before I turned around, as the car was turning around, I was turning around, you know what I'm saying?

    And I seen a bunch of people out there and I was backing out and was telling me, come on back. And, you know, I came on back and I turned around. By the time I got back to West Florissant, there was a bunch of other officers car coming.

  • Okay. So was there a car behind your truck?

  • Oh, yeah, there was a car behind me, but they wasn't right up on me, you know what I'm saying?

  • So when you saw Michael Brown coming towards the officer, how were Michael Brown's hands?

  • As far as I can tell, you know, after he got out of the car, the last I saw him, that's the last I saw him. (indicating)

  • And at that point, at some point towards the end of this, though, are you looking at cars so that you could try to back up?

  • Yeah, because I made one turn. I make that one turn up in here, I backed out and then I head on out.

  • I never looked back after that. But after I was backing out, I heard pow, pow, pow, I took off.

  • So you heard another round of gunfire?

  • Were you still on Canfield Drive?

  • I was still on Canfield Drive, right.

  • And so when you saw Michael Brown walking toward the officer, can you give me a guess or estimate as to how many steps he took or how far he walked?

  • As far as I can tell it looked like two or three steps to me, you know, something like that.

  • And then you took your eyes off of what was going on?

  • Yes, yes, ma'am.

  • So whatever happened after that you didn't see it?

  • Right, no. All I heard, when the police officer coming, most of them, say if this was to turn, I backed out and I turned and I was headed that way. By the time I got up in there, all I heard was pow, pow, pow.

  • So were you, when you heard pow, pow, pow, this round of gunfire?

  • Were you already facing

  • Yes. And the gentleman with me that I call , he was looking back, you know. He said, I think he just shot him again, you know what I'm saying? I was watching traffic and trying not too run into the policemen coming.

  • Okay. So the last time you saw Michael Brown he was still walking?

  • Right, he was still walking.

  • He wasn't on the ground?

  • No, he wasn't on the ground.

  • Okay. And you heard a series of shots, pow, pow, pow?

  • Something told me like, to me it sounded like three. Q

  • It sounded like three to me.

  • Did you ever hear any more shots after that?

  • No, after the three, I was almost at the curb. I was West Florissant again, I was trying to turn right to come in the back. Police cars was coming with their sirens and stuff on, you know.

  • Okay. Number 34, do you remember seeing another young African-American guy at or near those cars that you described?

  • I can't remember if there was somebody else there or not, you know. Only somebody I seen, I can't really remember.

  • Okay. Do you remember that when you, and you remember September 3rd, so it was over a month ago, but you remember on September 3rd, or thereabouts, going and talking to a FBI agent and an attorney named ?

  • Right, right, right.

  • Do you remember telling them back then, and I told you I was going to have a transcript of your statement.

  • But to be fair, you haven't heard your statement?

  • Since you gave it, right?

  • No, I haven't.

  • You know they recorded it right?

  • But you haven't had an opportunity to listen to it?

  • No, I haven't.

  • You haven't got a copy of the transcript?

  • But I told you I was going to maybe talk about this if there were things that you didn't remember?

  • So when you say these things, you know, you have to tell me if you remember saying this.

  • Right, okay.

  • So do you remember on page seven, and I will give you a copy that doesn't have my highlight on it. So here is a copy of your transcript so you see your name right there.

  • And that's your attorney's name?

  • So I'm just going to take you to about page seven.

  • And I don't say this to embarrass you, can you read, okay?

  • Okay. You want me to go ahead and read it for you?

  • Yes, please do.

  • Okay. So on page seven, do you remember the county police officer's name, Detective do you remember that at all, ?

  • No, I don't remember his name. I remember him coming to me.

  • Okay. So do you remember up at the top and saying, okay. How many people did you see outside the car?

    And then you say, outside the car? And he says, uh-huh. And you say, there was just him and there was another black guy standing back behind the police car.

  • If I said it, you know, like it is true. But like I say, you know, I do have a problem with my memory sometimes like I say, let me go too long, I can't tell you what I ate for breakfast this morning.

  • And that's me to.

  • Yeah, uh-huh.

  • Remember I said I'm only using this to see if you remember saying that.

  • Okay, uh-huh.

  • Now, and you're saying, hey, if I said it, I said it, I believe you, right?

  • Right, right, I believe you, right.

  • But what I'm saying is that me saying that, does that remind you of it?

  • All right. Well, as far as I can tell, really, I can't recall the other black guy. But like I said, the gentleman with me, he told me, you know, me and him, you know, we had talked about it.

  • And he said, yeah, there was one black guy that was standing back there by the car also, you know what I'm saying?

  • If I said it to them like at that time, you know, that's what I said.

  • Okay. So when you spoke to the federal agents and the county detective back on September 3rd. At that time were you telling them as best you could what you remember from that day?

  • As best I could, right.

  • So did you, were you truthful about everything as best you could?

  • I was truthful about everything that I remember, that I could remember.

  • All right. And so after you and got out of there, where did you go?

  • Uh, I came back around and I came into the back of the Canfield Apartment, came back up to Chambers, I came back up West Florissant to Chambers, took a right on Chambers and I went down right there by the fire station, I think it is Green or something like that you come in, I'm not for sure. I think the name of the street is Green.

    I came into the back of the Canfield Apartment, back there where they have that gate, they have a gate back there like a railroad crossing, you know, I came through that.

  • So it is blocked, there is a gate?

  • It was open that day.

  • So I came through there. I went on back around to the

  • Then left, coming up there to see, you know, how people come to see what's happening, you know. I went back, went out the same way I came in and went on to work.

  • So when you left, you left out west?

  • Coming back toward West Florissant.

  • And then you somehow?

  • Took a right on West Florissant and took a right on Chambers and then I came into the back of Canfield.

  • There's only two way in there that I know of from right there and from the back side.

  • And in the complex here?

  • Right, right, uh-huh.

  • Can you use the pointer and tell me do you know what building they live in?

  • No, but outside. could tell you what street.

  • I can't tell you what the name of the street, I'm not that good really.

  • Do you know is it a building that is on this side?

  • Say like coming up here and there is a I come around here, where is the office. Do you have the office on here?

  • I don't know.

  • There is an somewhere, but I come to a stop and then, and either this is it, I'm not for sure which one you have to come down and go into the back like that. (indicating)

  • When you came back into the Canfield Green Apartment Complex, did you ever seem Michael Brown again?

  • You didn't see his body in the street or anything when you came back?

  • From where you were?

  • I wasn't on this street any more where him and the officer were. I never did come back to that street until afterwards, maybe the next day or something, you know. I seen where they had the flowers and stuff like that out there.

  • But that day when you came back and went to your ?

  • From you could not see this?

  • No, huh-uh. You couldn't even get back in there no more, I just use the back way, I always use the back way.

  • Did you ever see that police officer again?

  • No, I never saw him again.

  • Now, when you said that when you got out of there, you saw officers coming into the complex?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • But the whole time you watch what was going on between Michael Brown and the officer, was he the only officer there?

  • Okay. And then, so you say you went to

  • Yeah, right.

  • And did you then walk down to this area at all?

  • No, not at all.

  • So that was that evening I had went to work for about two or three hours and I came back.

  • All right. Now, so you know that there were a bunch of police down here later after the shooting?

  • Oh, yeah, I seen them coming in and passing me. As I was making it to Chambers, police started coming, you know.

  • But you didn't tell the police, you didn't stick around that day to tell them what you saw?

  • No, I didn't stick around to tell nobody nothing.

  • Number one, you know, like I figure, you know, like I already been in trouble with the police, right.

  • , he, what you call that, when they let you go, what they call that.

  • You did your sentence?

  • He said I didn't do the crime, okay. And they figure me no way in that case, you know what I'm saying?

  • I kept telling them that. When I came to talk to officers like I'm talking to you now, try to tell them. Then they just throw me right now, just because I wouldn't testify against people, you know what I'm saying?

  • I did that I will never get back, you know what I'm saying?

  • So do you have a general distrust of police officers?

  • So you don't like to be --

  • I don't like them. I know we can't live without the police, okay, because this world would be messed up, you know. You turn the TV on all the time people killing people every day, but I don't like it when they make a mistake like that and don't try, you know, to straighten them out.

    If someone is telling you over and over, hey, I didn't do it. At least take the time, you know, try to see what's going on, you know what I'm saying?

    Like I say, I don't want to see Michael Brown's family, I don't know how to say this, I don't want to see nobody hurt. I'm the type of person, I don't believe in convicting nobody. I don't believe in accusing nobody of nothing, I don't really know, you know, what I'm saying. I just don't like hurting people.

  • So that day you didn't go talk to the police, but at some point you were talking to federal authorities and a county detective on September 3rd, how did that come about?

  • They came to my house, they came to my house and because, I guess, they seen the or they heard somebody saying that I told I know something or something, I don't know, but anyway, but Wednesday they showed me a picture of my They got my which is my , but I drive it. They went to my and they talked to

  • As far as I can tell, he told them

    He told them my name and stuff so they start looking me up. I used to live on , I moved off , I moved to a different street and now, you know.

  • I don't want you to stay where you live, okay?

  • Right, right.

  • So you're saying that basically the police found you?

  • Right, right.

  • It was because of your ?

  • Right, right, and then I went to talk to them then because I didn't want to get involved and they gave me a subpoena to come down there to talk to them. The subpoena, I guess, like you sent me, you know what I'm saying? So I called my lawyer and asked him, you know, could they do that, you know. I said, man, I'm here to mind my own business just trying to enjoy my life, you know what I'm saying? I want to live what I got left. He said, yes, you got to go, he said instead of going, he called the officer and I don't know if he called the officer or the officer called them so he could meet with them. So we met with them and talked to them and then I didn't have to go to this thing here, right. So we met them the day before or two days before, I'm not for sure.

  • Let's go back just to clarify. You actually were given a subpoena to testify in a

    but a different one?

  • Right, right, right, not this one.

  • And that's because the police somehow found you because of your ?

  • Right, that's what I'm figuring.

  • And that's what they told you, they showed you a picture of your and said this is your

  • And you said, yeah?

  • Yeah, I was driving.

  • And here is the subpoena?

  • Right. They want something that I didn't really care for, they said, you come down here of your own free will. No, I didn't come on my own free will, I came because you told me I had to, you know what I'm saying?

  • So once you got the subpoena, you talked to your attorney and your attorney arranged for you to come in and be interviewed?

  • He said he would be there with me because like, like you say, I don't trust the police to sit there and talk to them. There's some type of way, you know, I don't use all my words right like most people, but, you know, like they take what I say and twist it towards me, you know, like ever since then, I just haven't been comfortable.

  • Okay. So that's how you ended up making a statement to federal agents is because your attorney worked it out that you could come in and be interviewed rather than testify, right?

  • That's right.

  • And now you know that I had you served with a subpoena to come here today, right?

  • Okay, uh-huh.

  • And so when you say you're here of your own free will, you are only here because I subpoenaed you?

  • Right, correct.

  • Are you telling the truth today?

  • Yes, yes, you know, like I said, you know, I've been called a lot of names, but lying isn't one of them.

  • I told you are not in any trouble?

  • Right, right.

  • We want you to tell us what you saw, right?

  • Right, right.

  • Have I treated you fairly?

  • Oh, yes, you know, right, but do you believe me when I say I just want to be left alone and just live my life, you know, treat everybody nice, go to church every now and then. I just want, that's all I want, you know.

  • I think a lot of people would have really rather not have been involved in this?

  • Yeah, you know.

  • But here we are, right?

  • Yeah, you know.

  • I don't have any further questions and I told you Sheila may have some questions.

  • Right, uh-huh, okay.

  • Okay. Number 34, using that map, when you heard the first shot at the car. First of all, do you have a good idea looking at this map where you were when you heard that first shot?

  • Map, I can't really be sure, but it was somewhere. I figure it was somewhere in between here and here. (indicating)

  • (By Ms. Whirley) The car was here?

  • I can't say definitely, you know what I'm saying? But it was somewhere between there I was, you know what I'm saying?

  • Can you say in car lengths how far away you were?

  • Yeah, from the police, about from I say -(cid:173)

  • About how many car lengths would you say?

  • One car was in front of me, I say about two, three car lengths.

  • Okay. From the police car?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • You didn't see the beginning of the tussle is my understanding?

  • How is your eyesight?

  • Well, it is not good.

  • What do you mean?

  • I wear glasses, but I lost my glasses and I can't afford any more right now so, but during the time they had me they gave me some free ones. I accidentally broke them once doing work. And the government, I got some free ones, they won't help me get no more until a certain length of time.

  • When you say it is not good, what do you need glasses for?

  • I'm kind of like farsighted you know what I'm saying? Like something close up I can see pretty good, but something a distance off.

  • So when you're looking at longer distances you don't see well?

  • No, no, I don't.

  • All right. How about your hearing?

  • Hearing is not good at all.

  • What do you mean?

  • I mean, I've been having problems with my ear for the longest, you know. Like the gentleman there right here, I guess, was saying something, I could hear him mumbling, but I couldn't hear him, you know what I'm saying? Sounds like he was mumbling, I'm not say he was mumbling, you know what I'm trying to say?

  • You can hear me pretty well I can tell?

  • I can hear you very well.

  • And you mention your memory, tell us what problems do you have with your memory?

  • Well, you know, , my and God knows I pray I don't have it. I forgets a lot of things.

  • I just told you, my , I'm with my tells me I just told you, you know, like that. And some of the for, I had to go back to them like a few times and asked them is this what you said you wanted. I think they may have told me.

  • and God knows I pray I don't have it. I forgets a lot of things.

    I just

  • You say you have a family history of ?

  • You have problems with your memory now?

  • Yes, uh-huh. I have a doctor appointment for the that was the earliest he could get me in there. I'm on different medications.

  • Are the medications for your memory?

  • No, not yet, but I have seen a

    before and now they're sending me to, I guess, you call it a memory doctor, you know. I'm supposed to meet with them on the that I can think of.

  • Were you having memory problems back in August, when did your memory problems start, is the question?

  • Oh, it has been before then. It has been with me for a while, you know what I'm saying? Off and on.

  • Okay. You take, you do or you don't take medicine for it?

  • No, not for the memory yet.

  • I take medicine for those migraines I have like every morning, I mean.

  • Okay. At some point it sounded like you said it appeared that Michael Brown was injured when he, you know, ran and then stopped at the car. What made you think he was injured?

  • Because like anybody, I know I was a young man once before myself. I know if I got shot at by anybody, police or anybody, I would have ran farther than that, you know what I'm saying?

  • Right. Was there anything physically that he was doing that made you think he was shot?

  • It looked like he was kind of out of breath or something, you know, or just couldn't go no further to me.

  • Okay. And that was the reason why you thought he was injured?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • Okay. When you said that, let's go back to the car when they were tussling at the car and you saw the officer with one hand trying to, I guess.

  • I don't know what he was trying to do, but I know both of them had ahold of one another's shirt.

  • I want to go to the part where you said that the officer, you could see him as if he was going for his gun?

  • I saw him like this, I seen him lean over like this, right, and next thing I heard was a shot, pow. (indicating)

  • Okay. Let me ask you a question. When you saw him leaning as if he was getting a gun right before you heard that shot, could you see Michael Brown's hands?

  • Yes, you know, he was outside the window, you know, looked like he was --was staring at the officer too.

  • Were both his hands outside the windows?

  • No, looks like one of them trying to hit the officer.

  • He was hitting the officer?

  • Looks like he was trying to hit him, okay, right. But to me the officer was like this and the officer went like this, there wasn't no time I heard pow. (indicating)

  • Okay. So the officer went like, the officer --Michael Brown's hands and the officer's hands are kind of at each other?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • And then the officer goes like towards the gun?

  • He leans inside.

  • Let me finish that question. He appears he goes to get his gun?

  • You don't see Michael Brown inside the car going like to the gun too?

  • No, I didn't see that, no.

  • As far as I can remember I didn't see that.

  • All right. You mention, I thought you said, I'm not sure that you did, you

    for something you didn't do?

  • What was that, what was the crime?

  • , okay, but I was somebody walking around every day without a car and without good clothes to wear. How I had all of that, you now what I'm saying?

  • And you said you had been in trouble with the police, do you have any convictions?

  • What do you have?

  • I have a drug conviction also.

  • A drug conviction that you were guilty of?

  • Yeah, I was guilty of that one, yeah, uh-huh.

  • Anything else?

  • Well, I had, I had some other things that come through life, as I was coming to life, me and this guy got into it. They got me for firing a weapon at this guy, like this guy had threatened my life, okay.

  • That was back in the day, that was back in the early, late , it was late , right.

  • Anything else, any burglary or stealing?

  • No, no, that was about it.

  • I'm sorry, I'm sorry, rna' am, yes, I did. They charged me with a burglary crime also.

  • Was that an unjust charge?

  • Did you get convicted of it?

  • No, I don't think I did, but it is still on my record, it still was on my record. Now it is probably off it has been over years ago.

  • Okay. That day when you talked to the federal agents, I think it was back in September I think Kathi said. Let me see, I have September 3rd.

  • Did they ask you was anyone with you and you said no?

  • I said no at first because I didn't want to put nobody else in that, you know what I'm saying? But my lawyer stopped it. He told me, he said, , you know, tell them the truth. Was somebody else with you? I told my lawyer no, I don't want to put nobody else into, you know, the mess. I didn't even want to be there.

  • That's why you didn't want to tell them about that person that was with you?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • Okay. When you said that there was a shot and then Michael Brown ran and then you saw Michael Brown hesitate on the car as if he's maybe injured or something, and then he turns around and faces the officer?

  • When he was on the car, he could see the officer coming. Like I say, if this is the car, that gentleman right there, the policeman coming at me with the glasses on, okay. Michael Brown, the whole car, he was on this side of the car and if the car, West Florissant down here and Canfield right like this, he is on this side of the car. And the officer was trying to come up towards Michael.

  • The officer was trotting towards Michael?

  • Right, right, right, with his gun down to the side.

  • Was Michael facing the officer?

  • Yes, oh, yeah, he was there, you know what I'm saying?

  • Okay. At this point he had turned around from running?

  • Right, right.

  • So he's facing the officer and the officer is trotting towards him?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • And then Michael is then walking towards the officer?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • What I want to know is what the officer was doing when Michael was walking toward him, you said he was trotting?

  • Yeah, yeah, he was coming up toward him.

  • Show us, please, I'll walk towards you.

  • Right, right. You come closer.

  • Michael Brown like that, and Michael Brown came off the car and then by that time everybody

  • I'm walking towards you, I want you to be the officer and show me what the officer is doing.

  • All right. You know, he's like this.

  • Okay. He did not have his gun?

  • He had his gun holding it right here.


  • He's holding it down, that's what you saw?

  • Right, that's what I saw.

  • And is that the last thing you saw?

  • That's the last thing I saw.

  • You didn't see Michael Brown's hands up?

  • No, I didn't. Like I say, when I seen Michael Brown, he was one or two steps from the car.

  • As a matter of fact, when I seen him coming off the car like this, that's the last I saw of him. (indicating)

  • You didn't see Michael Brown charging the officer?

  • No, no, I didn't see him charging.

  • As far as I can remember, I don't remember him charging. I remember he was coming off the car and when I turned around, like I said, I heard three shots and my friend was looking back. And he said, I call him my friend, but anyway oh, man, he shot him again, you know. Hey, I'm trying to watch these policemen coming in and watch the people, you see what I'm saying?

  • You didn't see if he was shooting at him when he was running away from him?

  • I heard three shots, I think it was three.

  • And again, just for clarity. From what you saw, there was no struggle for the gun, the officer just grabbed the gun and shot?

  • I don't think there was a struggle for the gun that I could tell.

  • Okay. All right, questions?

    You had mentioned before when you first say, you said that the officer had the gun in his right hand?

  • When he's out of the vehicle?

  • He had his gun in his right hand, his hand is down by his side, by his right side.

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • And the gun is pointed, I guess, basically towards the ground?

  • Is that correct?

  • And then you made a motion that he spoke into his shoulder mike?

  • Right, right, uh-huh. Okay.

  • Did you see any cars lined up behind the police vehicle coming the opposite direction other than the one he put his hand on?

  • Okay.

    Did you

  • To tell the truth, I really can't say I did. I don't remember. On the car I was paying attention to was the one he had his hands on. I thought the kid was hit, I thought Michael Brown was hit, you know. I told Mr. I said that kid must have got hit, you know.

  • Anything else?

    Why do you think, a couple questions, my first question for you. When Michael Brown was walking towards the officer, how would you describe that. You showed us he was walking, how would you kind of describe, was he walking aggressively, did he seem to be charging in any sort of manner, was he just casually walking, how would you describe his movement toward the officer?

  • Well, I can't say it was aggressive, but you know, what I could not understand, you know like, well, good God, after he got hit fall, he just fall on the ground or lay on the ground, you know, like that's what I am used to from police come up, keep your hands clear or lay down on the ground or something, you know what I'm saying?

  • That makes me think of a question. Did you see Michael Brown ever go for, as if he was going for a weapon?

  • No, I never saw that.

  • You never saw a weapon?

  • No, I never saw.

  • Did you ever see him like reach in his pants as if he is going for a weapon?

  • No, I didn't.

  • All right. It is about the timeframe, the amount of time that you said that this all took place. I do this too, I will say a minute or two. A minute or two is kind of long.

  • Yes, uh-huh.

  • So do you think that Michael Brown was behind that car holding on for a full minute or two, or do you think you were just doing that to describe, you know, like a minute is, the police officer would have plenty of time to get to him if it was a full minute or two?

  • Right, it may have been quicker, I can't really say, but you know, I say a minute or two cause I tell you at home, I see you in a couple seconds. I know it isn't going to be a couple seconds but I say a couple seconds, you know what I'm saying?

  • I say a minute or two, that's the best of my knowledge.

  • Okay. And on your recorded statement, they have asked you what was going through your mind and what was happening as you were turning around. And you said it just blows your mind. What blows your mind. And you said, it blew my mind because like I couldn't believe, you know, like this ain't happening, why are people tussling with the police, just talk to them, you know.

    So do you believe that if he would have stopped and gotten on the ground, do you believe that things would have turned out differently or do you believe that it still would --

  • I believe it would have turned out differently as most people, when the police stop you, first thing you do, put both hands out and put both of your hands on the steering wheel. When I say that, because I've been through things with police officers and by police officer telling me, you know, by me making a mistake not putting my hands up, I made a mistake, have thrown my hand back like this, and police have pulled guns on me, you know what I'm saying? He said well, hey, keep your hands on the wheel at all times. But you know, like I said, you've some police officers are not that bad, but I have ran into some nasty police officers, you know what I'm saying? But I still don't get nasty with them, but that's my attitude. You take these young people coming up today, you know, they're not going to take it like I took it, you know what I'm saying? See where I come from, I mean, I couldn't even walk on the sidewalk when the police come. I had to get off the sidewalk, you know what I'm saying?

  • Without being asked?

  • Right, right, without being asked. I just had to get off, you know what I'm saying? I couldn't understand that, but my father would tell me, you know, like this is what you got to do. Cause I come up in rough time, you know. I understand, thank you.

  • To get some clarification on something. You had let me see, from the time that first, the shot went off, Michael is down the street, he is, hands on the back of the brown car and he's actually facing the officer still at that time, okay.

  • I understand, thank you.


  • You see him come away from the back of the car?

  • And his hands are down by his side, is that the correct stance?

  • As far as I can tell, I couldn't swear on they were down by his side. It looked, you know, to me like when he took his hand, you first take your hand off the car, you know, you're standing. He took a step and that's when everything just sped up.

  • Okay. And you see him at that time, he said it appeared to you that he took maybe about two or three steps forward?

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • That's what you said?

  • Then you said that you want to get the heck out of Dodge?

  • You had to back your car up?

  • Do you recall when you are backing your vehicle up, this is a two-lane road?

  • Right, right.

  • The officer's vehicle is already obstructing the roadway.

  • Right, right.

  • So when you're backing up, are you looking in your side view mirror, your rear view mirror, side or did you actually turn around?

  • Gotcha. Let me say this before, when I backed up, , I said look to the right, what's coming to the right. I mean, I was looking to the left, right, because I couldn't hit nothing coming out the back because the back was just the sidewalk back there. So I took off ahead this way, and police hadn't made it there yet, the police hadn't made it in there until I got back to West Florissant, that's when the police start coming in.

  • Okay. So you didn't encounter the other police cars?

  • When they got there, no, no, I just see them coming in past me.

  • Coming in past you?

  • And then from that point in time, when you are backing up, at what point did you hear --you heard the three shots?

  • When I backed up, I got like that, by the time I got straight, pow, pow, pow, I just kept going.

  • So you are facing the other way on Canfield?

  • On the last three shots. I'm facing West Florissant on the three shots, I got turned around.

  • So during that particular point in time you can't honestly say, if I can word this correctly, I don't want to put words in your mouth or anything like that.

  • Right, uh-huh.

  • It was asked if you ever saw Michael Brown approach the officer aggressively, but you said you couldn't see that?

  • Would that be the reason why you couldn't have seen that happen?

  • Oh, yeah, it could be because my back's turn, you know what I'm saying? That's the reason why I tried to get my friend whatever he saw after that to talk to the officer, you know what I'm saying? But you know for some reason, he just don't want to talk to them, you know. I did get him to call one of the officers because the officer asked me to tell him to call him because he kept telling me to tell him to call him if I saw him. The last two times I saw him I told him, I say, man, why don't you call these people so they will leave me alone, you know what I'm saying? So he said, okay, I'll call them, give me the number. He said he called and talked to them, and even my lawyer told me that they had talked to him.

  • Okay. Do you know if Mr. , your passenger, do you know at the time that you're backing up, I mean, is he still looking back at the scene as to what's going on?

  • Yes, yes, he had to see the rest of the scene because he was looking to the right for me and, you know, for me watching the street, watch the other cars as they start coming in, you know what I'm saying? He was looking back yeah, uh-huh. As far as I could tell, he was looking back like this like towards, the passenger look like that. (indicating)

  • All right. Thank you.

  • Again, when you were leaving the scene in your vehicle you said you passed multiple police cars as they were arriving on the scene?

  • Do you recall if they had their lights and sirens on?

  • Yeah, some of them did. The first one I think, I scene the second one, I'm not for sure, but he was behind the first one that had a light on and then his siren and stuff coming on down, it seemed like it was coming from the police station right there on Chambers and across West Florissant on the other side. I think that's Dellwood, I'm not for sure.

  • Just real quickly. Number 34, I think we understand and it is pretty clear that you were not looking, you didn't see the very end of this; is that correct.

  • No, ma'am, I didn't.

  • Correct. Do you remember when you were talking to the federal officers back on September 3rd on page 15. Do you remember when they were asking you, they asked you, did it look to you like Mike was coming back to talk with the officer or did it look like Mike was coming after the officer, what did it look like to you cause you said you were scared.

    Do you remember saying, you know, I, something to myself an awful lot, ma'am. Really honest to God truth, I can't say either way, but you know, if I was the officer, I would look nervous too. You coming back toward me and you just hit me, and you know what I'm saying? You know how like, you know, but, but I really can't say about that, ma'am. I'm telling you the truth, do you know what I'm saying?

    Do you remember kind of describing that to them?

  • Oh, yes, ma'am, I remember saying that. It is just like now, if you slap me now, you walk back over here again, I'm going to be ducking. I'm going to be getting out of your way, you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's just instinct, do you know what I'm saying?

    If someone hit me and I see you, you know like coming out or whatever, you know, like that's the way I feel. I'm speaking for me now, you know what I'm saying?

  • Okay. So if someone had punched you and then ran away from you, but then turned around and came back in your direction, you would be a little on edge or fearful?

  • Oh, yes, ma'am. If I had a gun, I probably would have shot too, really, I'm just telling you like it is, you know what I'm saying? You know like, that's just like, I would call it like, uh, violating. I'm sure if I go to punch that young fellow, he ain't going to just sit there, you know what I'm saying? He's going to get up and knock my teeth out, you know what I'm saying? So something, you know.

  • All right, thank you.

    That begs a question from me. So do you feel like it was, urn, it could have possibly been self-protection that caused him or do you feel like it was anger that caused the police?

  • Caused the police to shoot him?

  • Yeah. If somebody's going to hit me, I'm not going to turn --

  • I never thought about it like that, I never thought about it being prejudiced or nothing like that. I feel in my heart if I was the officer and if I seen somebody coming towards me and they don't have a weapon or something, I'm going to try to shoot both your legs out first if I can hit them, you know what I'm saying? I want to make killing to be the last resort because I don't believe in killing, you know. I know if I hit you in both your legs or one of your legs, you got to go down, you know what I'm saying?

  • Let me ask you one more question about that.

  • But I can't say for him because I don't know what's going through the police mind, you know what I'm saying?

  • So do you think if it was a police officer, a person of authority and somebody that was attacking the police officer, that that would have changed the whole way that the officer might have thought?

  • I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't catch the whole thing.

  • Since the police officer was of authority and that authority was being disregarded.

  • Do you think that would change the way he was thinking?

  • You saying if somebody else would have been at the police?

  • No, no, no. I'm saying since he was a police officer, do you think that would have made him more afraid of the person coming toward him was because he was a police officer?

  • I don't know. But, you know, like --

  • Because the man had no regard, if he had no regard for his authority, would that mean

  • Right, right. You asking me do I believe the police shot him because he had the authority to shoot, is that what you're asking me?

  • If I think he maybe, that because of Michael Brown's disregard for his authority.

  • Oh, now I see now where you are coming from. Because Michael Brown disrespect him?

  • Okay. Well, I don't know, you know like, they do make me angry when people disrespect me, especially, you know, if you know you're right, you know what I'm saying? And then sometimes, you know, like, you can never tell what their frame of mind is in when they disrespect you, you know what I'm saying? Like I say, if I go there and punch that man, that's disrespecting him. I don't know how his reaction is going to be. He might say, well, hey, don't do that no more. He might just jump up and lay me out, you know. So I don't know, you know. So yeah, you know. I can't say, you know, yes, ma'am.

  • But just to be clear, Number 34, there were moments before that series of gunshots where you don't know what happened?

  • Right, that's true, yes, ma'am.

  • Hands up, hands down.

  • What his hands were doing?

  • That's true.

  • What was happening between the two of them, you don't know?

  • That's true, ma'am, right, uh-huh.

  • Okay. Any other questions?

  • All right.

    (End of the testimony of Witness Number 34.)

  • It is October 16th at 10:51 a.m. This is Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office, Sheila Whirley with the prosecutor's office is present, as well as all 12 grand jurors and , the court reporter, who is going to take down testimony from the witnesses.

    And what's being said here next I am going to play a recorded statement from a witness, his name is I believe. This is on Grand Jury Exhibit 24 which is a disc that I'm going to play and we have a transcript of that statement.

    When I begin to play the statement, I will ask to pause the audio recording. He does not need to take down the dictation or the transcription while this is being played since we have a transcript.

    (Playing of the audio recording of the interview of is being played at this time.)

  • All right. We just completed playing a statement on a disc labeled Grand Jury Exhibit Number 24, statement of or

    Now we're going to play a statement that is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36. It is a statement of I don't have a transcript for this. And then so as soon as I get this set up, I'll have pause the audio recording, and yet I will ask that you transcribe it as best you can the conversation. There is no transcript of this and this is the audio recording of

    MS. Today is October 3rd, 2014, the time is 10:48 a.m. We are at the FBI building at 2222 Market Street. This is Special Agent

    , DOJ trial attorney assistant U.S. Attorney Attorney?

    MS. MS. And we're going to interview. MR.

    All right. , we're here, we wanted to meet with you, we had some follow-up questions from the last interview you gave, okay. We had some specific questions we wanted to ask you about.

    Keep in mind the interview is being recorded, okay, so you have to keep your voice up. I know you are kind of soft spoken.

    MR. Yeah.

    When I ask you a question that calls for a yes or no answer, you have to be sure to answer out loud, okay, instead of shaking your head or nodding, okay, because the recorder wouldn't pick that up, you understand.

    MR. All right.

    Okay. Don't answer any questions that you don't understand, okay. If I ask you a question and you're not getting exactly what I'm trying to ask you, you can ask me to explain it, okay. I don't want you to answer any question you don't understand, got it?

    MR. Okay.

    And then also a lot of times, and I know in the prior interview that happened there were times where you might state some things, I will go back and restate it to you just to make sure I understand. If I misstate anything at any time correct me, okay, this is your statement.

    If I get any detail wrong or whatever, you feel free to say no, that's not what I meant, or no that's not exactly what I said. Okay, will you do that?

    MR. Yeah.

    We're not trying to trick you or confuse you at any point. So we want to make sure that at any point you feel confused, you let us know. We just want to get out what happened, all right?

    MR. All right.

    We're the prosecutors assigned to this case, okay. And I will just remind you this is a federal investigation, okay. So you've got to be sure to tell the truth here today. This is basically a blank slate. I'm not all that concerned what was said before, you just tell us what you know today, all right? You need to be sure it is the truth, you understand?

    MR. Uh-huh.

    Okay. That's basically our goal here. We're investigating the case, we are just trying to find the truth.

    Now, you came down here with your lawyer today voluntarily, right?

    MR. Yeah, she told me to come, so I'm here.

    You agreed to come down and talk to us?

    MR. Yeah.

    Okay. You have got to keep your voice up, okay?

    MR. All right.

    No one threatened you in any way or promised you anything to come down here today?

    MR. No.

    All right. You are not under the effects of any drugs or alcohol today?

    MR. No.

    And I ask everybody that, don't be offended by it, I generally ask that question. Anything else that would affect your ability to be truthful today?

    MR. No.

    Okay. All right. Well, let's get down to it then here. You, can you tell me what was your relationship with Michael Brown, how did you know him?

    MR. He was one of my best friends. We went to high school together, he was around me every day. And come to find out, I found out he was a family member after the fact of him getting killt. (sic)

    How was he a family member? MR. He was one of my cousin's cousin. His little brother and his little sister's daddy got killed in about, I think about 2006. Come to find out that was my cousin.

    Okay. So you are actually a blood relative of Mike Brown.

    MR. Yeah.

    But you didn't know that until after he was killed?

    I didn't know until after. After my cousin popped over there and that's when I found out that.

    Okay. But you basically saw him every day?

    MR. Yeah, he was with me every day. The day before he was being killed, he was living with me.

    Okay. How long did he live at your house?

    MR. Just about a week. His granny was in the hospital. He didn't have nowhere else to go.

    And even before he was living at your house, you would see him every day?

    MR. Yeah, every day we will go record music, play video games, everything.

    Okay. MR. It was just like he knew all my family, I knew all his family.

    Uh-huh. MR. And just we were

    You were tight? MR. We were real, real close.

    When you see him every day, how much time did you spend together? I know every day is different.

    MR. All day.

    All day long? MR. Just walk to the store, come home, playing games and just being kids.

    Okay, all right. And how about Dorian Johnson, what was your relationship with Dorian?

    MR. That's, that's like a friend of the family. I knew him and all his brothers and sisters and all that so.

    He's actually a blood cousin also, is that right, Dorian?

    MR. He's not blood, but we grew up around each other, so to me it is blood.

    I thought before you described it as a blood cousin, but he was basically kind of a friend of the family?

    MR. Yeah.

    Okay, all right. Can you just tell us basically what you saw on August 9th when Michael Brown was killed?

    MR. The day of it happening, it was around 4:00 in the morning. I was on the phone with a lady friend of mine and something came over my body and I felt, I didn't feel right. I was like something was going to happen. And Mike, he's on the couch right next to me, so he just told me to go to sleep, nothing going to happen, that's all right.

    So in the morning, the reason why we woke up was because my mother called and was like, she needed me to help her put my nephews in the car for her and my sister. So I was asleep at that point, I didn't feel like getting up. Michael Brown put my nephews in the car for me and everything.

    And he can use my phone cause I told him to call his grandmother to make sure she's okay before you do anything cause he wasn't talking to her because they had a little dispute the day before. So I told him to call her and make sure

    He had a dispute with his grandmother?

    MR. Yeah, you know, just her telling, you know how it is with family.

    Do you know what the dispute was about?

    MR. No, sometimes just have, you know, families have little arguments from time to time. So I guess it was a little argument and she went to the hospital that day. So he was staying with me for that week.

    Was he staying with you because she was in the hospital or because of this dispute?

    MR. Because she was in the hospital.

    Okay. Let's talk about then what happened though, what did you see on August 9th.

    MR. Yeah, I was leading up to that. So he had put my nephews and everything in the car. He used my phone, he came back and threw me my phone. He was like, me and Dorian is going to walk to the store and we will be back. I'm like, all right, hopefully I will be up by the time you all get back from the store.

    I say it was about, I say about 15, 20 minutes after they had left for, I guess they was on their way back from the store, that's when I heard the first gunshot.

    Where were you when you heard the first gunshot?

    MR. I was in my room.

    Were you still in bed. MR. Yeah, I was still laying down. It was loud and close to where I could hear it enough to where it would wake me up like to see what was going on.

    So that first shot actually woke you up?

    MR. Yeah, the first shot actually woke me up. I wasn't in no deep, deep sleep, it was enough to hear what was going on.

    Okay. Then what happened? MR. I heard the first shot, and then I went to the window and what I saw was the officer had a gun drawn and Michael Brown's facing him on his knees.

    And you actually personally saw this?

    MR. Yes, I personally saw him on his knees with his hands in the air?

    Okay. And then what happened?

    MR. And then I say maybe about a few seconds later, I looked and I was still looking out the window and I seen him shoot him in the head. By the time I tried to get out of the house, like by the time I hit the stairs, I heard four more shots go off.

    And then I live all the way on the third floor, so I say when I first came out of the house, I heard the four gunshots and then by the time I got to the end, when I got to the end of the steps, I heard seven more shots.

    How many shots did you see? MR. How many shots did I see?

    Right. MR. I saw one.

    Okay. MR. But I heard multiple.

    Okay. All right. So you just saw, you heard the first shot?

    MR. I heard the first shot.

    You go to the window and right, yes or no?

    MR. Yes, yes, yes.

    And then you go to the window?

    MR. Yes.

    And when you look out the window, what do you see?

    MR. Michael Brown on his knees with his hands up and I couldn't even, from my angle I could not even see if it was him or not. The way I found out it was him because I knew everything he had on because he was just at my house 20 minutes prior to what happened.

    The reason why I really new who it was cause he had on some socks, and I remember exactly what socks cause he loved wearing them.

    What socks were those? MR. They were some yellow and green like marijuana leaf socks.

    Okay. They had marijuana leafs on them?

    MR. Yeah.

    He loves to wear those? MR. Yeah, like a month prior to that he had bought a whole bunch of them. I don't know why, that's what he wore. I can tell you everything he had on, he had on a gray T-shirt, he had on some khaki pants, or khaki shorts, some Nike white and black flip flops and then them specific socks I just mentioned.

    Okay. So today what you're indicating is as you look out the window, you actually saw Michael Brown out there?

    MR. Yes.

    Okay. And you could recognize him by what he was wearing?

    MR. Yes.

    Do you see the police officer shoot him one time?

    MR. Yes.

    And where did he shoot him? MR. In his head.

    What did Michael Brown do at that time?

    MR. By that time when I seen the gunshot go off, he fell. He got shot in the head, it looks like he was already gone.

    So he fell down? MR. Yeah.

    When you looked out the window was he already down or you actually saw that shot?

    MR. No, when I looked out my window, he was on his knees.

    Okay. MR. I don't know if he had already got shot before then because I heard the first gunshot, I don't know, I'm just stating what I saw.

    All right. When you looked out the window, did you think that he had been shot from that first shot?

    MR. Yeah.

    Why did you think that? MR. Because I knew it, why would he be on his knees like surrendering like.

    Did you see any kind of injures that would lead you to believe he was shot?

    MR. No, cause like my window, it was facing towards his back, it wasn't facing toward his front to see if he had got shot. From his back I didn't see anything.

    Okay. You couldn't see any blood or anything?

    MR. Not from his back.

    Any wounds or anything like that?

    MR. No.

    Then you say the police officer shot him in the head one time?

    MR. Yeah.

    And he fell to the ground? MR. Yeah.

    How did he fall when he fell?

    MR. He just fell. Like I couldn't explain.

    Did he fall on his back or his stomach.

    MR. He fell like this.


    And you are motioning face like down?

    MR. Yeah, he fell facedown.

    Question, were both hands on the side?

    MR. I couldn't tell you, I just know he fell face first.

    Okay. And so when he was laying in the street, he was face first?

    MR. Yeah.

    He wasn't on his back or on his side?

    MR. No, he was face first.

    Okay. MR. Even when they show what happened on the news, he still is face first and you can see the blood rushing from his head.

    What you are telling me today you only saw that one shot to the head?

    MR. Yes.

    You heard the first shot that woke you up?

    MR. Yes.

    You were looking out the window and saw the shot to the head.

    MR. Yes.

    And then after that, after Michael Brown falls to the ground what do you do?

    MR. I run outside.

    Okay. MR. (Inaudible) To the end of the steps.

    And what happens when you get to the end of the steps?

  • I ran out there, I ran because there is like a grass hill right there. And I said they just killed my little brother for nothing. Those were my exact words. Okay. And did you see any other shots after you got inside there? MR. No. So you saw a total of one shot that day? MR. I saw one shot, but I heard several. Okay, all right. You're sure you didn't see four shots after that shot to the head? MR. I didn't see it, I ran outside. Okay. MR. I didn't see it, I heard it. Okay. MR. I was close enough to it where I could hear everything that was going on. Let's back up a little bit. You mention that he was staying with you about a week before all this happened? MR. Uh-huh. And, in fact, I think you said before you and your mom were kind of taking care of him? MR. No, it wasn't my mom, he was at my sister's house. I wasn't even living with my mom during that point in time. You and Michael were staying at your sister's place? MR. Yeah. You were with him every day at that time? MR. Yes. (Inaudible) MR. It was every day because he lived right across the street. Pretty much all day? MR. Yeah, all day. You mentioned his socks, the marijuana leaf socks. MR. Yeah. He liked to wear those, did you know him to be involved in marijuana at all? MR. Yeah. How so? MR. He just started smoking I guess about four months ago. Okay. Four months before this happened? MR. Yeah. He wasn't no head, he wouldn't do it like just on a regular day basis, I would say occasionally. Occasionally, how often, once a week, twice a week? MR. Just holidays, birthdays, stuff like that. It was not like he smoked regular everyday thing. All right. Would you ever smoke with him? MR. Yeah, I have. Okay. Would you smoke with him basically the same kind of occasion? MR. Yeah. Did you smoke the same as Mike, would you smoke more often than him or less often? MR. Less often. Less often than Mike? MR. Like I'm saying, holidays and special occasions. Do you have any idea where he would get it from? MR. No. Okay. Did you know any white contractors or workers that were working there that were digging out the trenches to put drain tile or drain pipes in there, did you know those guys at all? MR. No, I didn't, but it's funny you mentioned that because my sister was just telling me that he was taking my nephews out to the car, she was talking to some construction workers and they was talking about that and police and all this type of the stuff. It's funny that you mentioned that. That's just something that you've heard? MR. Yeah, that's something I was asleep most of the day until actually heard the gunshot. Okay. Did you know those guys, the construction workers to be involved with weed at all or anything like that? MR. No. Have you ever heard of wax, do you know what wax is? MR. No, I don't know what that is. Had you ever heard Mike talk about wax or anything like that, Mike Brown? MR. No, I'm thoroughly confused. I don't know what that is. Okay, that's fine. You're not aware of what wax is? MR. No. And so you and Mike, you would smoke together sometimes? MR. Yeah. That morning before he left there, did you guys smoke that morning or overnight? MR. No. You're sure about that? MR. Yeah. Okay. What about Mike, do you know if he did even if you didn't? MR. Yeah, he could have cause he left my house a couple of hours before we actually went to sleep. I can't vouch for what he did, you know what I'm saying? Nobody asked you to. MR. So I can't tell what he did when he wasn't around me. Okay. MR. I'm just telling you my experience. We're not expecting you to tell us. MR. I just telling you just my experience. I'm just talking about when he was around you, did he smell like weed that day at all or did you have any reason to think he smoked weed that day? MR. I don't know, he could have, I don't know. Okay. I'm just asking if you know. MR. He could have, I don't know. Okay. What makes you think that he could have? Just that it's possible? MR. Anybody can smoke at any time. What I'm asking you though, is there anything that led you to think that maybe he smoked that morning? MR. I don't know, he was with me this morning, so I didn't smoke I was still in bed. Okay. MR. I can't tell you what he did when he wasn't around. I can tell you that the evidence was that he had smoked weed or basically THC somehow that day, all right, that's the ingredient in weed or marijuana. The two of you had smoked before, I'm just curious about, when you were up overnight, did he smoke at that time maybe? MR. Neither one of us smoked that day. Neither one of us had no money. Okay. MR. Well, I didn't have no money at that time. Do you know if he had any weed, any marijuana that day? MR. I don't know. Did you see any? MR. No, I didn't see none though. (inaudible) He didn't make it his obligation to tell me if he had some or not. I honestly don't know. When he got up to get dress that day or when he was getting ready to leave, did you see him with any weed or put any weed in his pocket? MR. No, he just said he was going to walk to the store and he'd be back, him and Dorian. Let's talk about that. My understanding is he was going to the store to get some Cigarillos. Did he tell you that he was going there to get those? MR. No, but I wasn't sure if he had it already or that he was going to go get it or I didn't know. All right. I will just be here when you get up. I'll open the door for you. Do you know why he was going to get Cigarillos? Was that for marijuana? MR. Who knows. He had none of that at the point in time he woke me up to let me know that he was going to the store. I didn't see none of that. Okay. But he did tell you that is why he was going to the store? MR. Yeah, that's what he tell me. Did you know him to use Cigarillos to smoke week. MR. Yeah. To make a blunt? MR. Yes. Is that the way the two of you would normally smoke? MR. Yes. With Cigarillos? Is that a yes? MR. Yes. You have to speak up for the tape, I'm sorry. Okay. And so when you and Mike Brown would actually, when you would smoke weed, you would use Cigarillos to smoke it? MR. Yeah. How do you do that? I mean, what do you do with the Cigarillos? I just have to lay the groundwork. MR. You just take the tobacco out and then role the marijuana into it. Okay. You take the tobacco out of the Cigarillo and put the marijuana into it? MR. Yeah. Okay. And basically you pull all of that tobacco out and fill it with marijuana? MR. Yeah. The whole Cigarillo? MR. Yeah. Okay, all right. Now, Dorian was there that morning too at your apartment; is that right? MR. He wasn't in, actually in, he was sitting outside waiting. He didn't actually come in my house. Okay. MR. He was just waiting. Mike came and gave me my phone back and we are off to the store, we be back. All right. When Mike was talking about going to the store to get Cigarillos, I mean, was he talking about that he was going to go smoke, you knew why he was going to get the Cigarillos? MR. Yeah, I knew why. Okay. Did he talk about, hey, when I get back, let's smoke, I'm going to go smoke with Dorian, or did he say anything like that? MR. He was like, I'll be back, me and Dorian are going to be back. I don't know if they was going to come smoke with me or not. Mike said when he left they were going to come right back, be about 30 minutes. I make sure I be up so I be up so I can come open the door for 'em. Okay. They were going to come back to your place after the store? MR. Yes. Both of them were going to come back together? MR. Yeah. Did Mike say anything else to you that morning? MR. No, he didn't say nothing. Let me ask you, that morning now, you said you were up overnight that you couldn't sleep and Mike spent the night that night? MR. Oh, yeah. And he was up with you at that time? MR. Oh, yeah. Did he say he couldn't sleep or do you know why he was up? MR. I didn't know why he was up, I knew why I was up cause I had an intuition, like a feeling that something was going to happen. I didn't think it was going to honestly happen to him, I knew God send me a sign and I knew something was going to happen the following day. The two of you were up overnight? MR. Yeah, I knew it was going to be something, see, I don't sleep at night. That's what I was going to ask. Do you normally stay up throughout the night or sleep during the day or what? MR. No, I'm usually the person who just stay up late at night. I don't get too much sleep. Would Mike stay up with you too late at night? MR. No, he be the one to go to sleep first. Okay. MR. So it was kind of strange that he was up all night. So at some point, though, you fell asleep? MR. Yeah. Whatever time you think that was if you know. MR. Around 4:30, 5:00. In the morning? MR. Yeah. And where was Mike at that time? MS. He was on the couch, I don't know if he was asleep by then or not. I just know I couldn't take no more and I just passed out. You were sleeping in your bed? MR. Yeah. He was on the couch? MR. Yeah. Okay. And so you fall asleep and what's the next thing you remember from that morning? MR. He came and woke me up and he was like, he said let me see your phone. I'm like all right, man, and take the phone out, unlock it for him, and I went right back to sleep. Do you know who he was calling on his phone? MR. I think his grandmother. Yeah, his grandmother. I had told him before he had went to sleep, I'm like, man, when we wake up in the morning. Uh-huh. MR. Call and check on her to make sure she's all right. Before you do anything call and check on her to make sure she's all right. Okay. MR. I always told him he had a grandmother and all of that. He didn't need to take her for granted. And that's one thing I always push from our people is to stay with your family. Okay. MR. To be And let me just, you know, you just try to answer the question, okay. That way we won't spend a lot of time here today, okay. I don't want to have to have you here all day. So just try to answer the question I'm asking, you understand, is that okay? Uh-huh. So he borrows your phone, you think to call his grandmother? He came and tossed me my phone. Me and Dorian is going to walk to the store we'll be back. And I said about 30, 45 minutes. I'm like, all right. I got up, locked the door, went back to my room and went to sleep. Is that when he said they were going to get Cigarillos? Yes. Let me ask you this, when you smoked weed with Mike, where would you get it from? Uh -- I mean, I don't think he wants to answer that I don't want to answer that question. I'll tell you right now you are not going to be in any trouble, okay. (inaudible) To be smoking weed or whoever you get it from or whatever. I'm just curious about, you know, who supplies it to you? I'm not going to answer that question. Well, that's kind of up to me to determine, okay, legally whether it matters or not, okay. I'm just asking you, you know, you basically refusing to tell me? This ain't got nothing to do with this interview. Basically you're not going to tell me; is that right? Yeah. Okay, that's fine. Can I ask you a question? You describe what it is, what his demeanor was when he got high, what was he like? He was a funny person, like he would sit there and talk about each other, get on the phone with females, play video games, he wasn't no aggressive person at all. At all, like towards nobody. He wasn't angry towards anybody? No, he was a big fun person, that's all he was. Whenever we was together, there was no drama, there was no nothing. We would just sit in the room and play the games and just get on her nerves all day. She would be in there going off on him. (inaudible) When you guys would smoke weed together, did you ever get or did he ever get like scared or paranoid at all from smoking weed? No. Okay. If we did do it, it was an enclosed area around his family, it wasn't like, when we did smoke, it was no public thing. Okay. We go outside smoke, come back in, play video games, play with his little brother, little sister. There was never nothing out of line or anything like that. Urn, now, after you mention on August 9th you saw the police officer shoot him once in the head and he falls to the ground. And then you ran outside, down the steps and outside, right; is that right? Yeah. All right, you have to say so. Yes, yes. You ran down the steps to get downstairs? Yes. What floor were you on? I live on the third floor. So you ran down the steps to get down there? Yeah. You mention before that by the time you got down there, there is kind of a crowd gathering; is that right? Yeah. Tell me about that? There was people out there before I had even got outside. It was a regular day. There was people walking their kids. It is hot outside, it is just a normal day like. I'm talking about after the shooting when you got out there? There was crowds gathering, there was just a whole bunch of chaos after that, a whole bunch of chaos. What was going on, what were people saying? They were crying, yelling and screaming. They killed him for nothing, they killed this baby for nothing, just everybody was outside. Okay. And you mention before also that you talked to Dorian a little bit about all of this after it happened? Yeah. He said something to you about hiding behind a Monte Carlo? Yeah. What else did he tell you about what happened, did he tell you about what happened down there? We didn't really get a chance to talk to too much, there was too much going on, too much commotion. What about since that time, there has now been, it has been over a month now. Eight weeks. Almost two months. Did you talk to Dorian about it? Other than hiding behind the Monte Carlo? I haven't had a chance to catch up with him. He hasn't told you anything other than he hid behind a Monte Carlo? He said he shoot at Mike. (inaudible) He said he went and hid behind the Monte Carlo. Did he tell you what he saw? He said he shot him multiple times, couldn't really do nothing, too much talking. There was too much going on, just like he said, like too much going on. I had no chance for me to talk to him and for him to talk to me. Did he give you any other details other than he was shot multiple times and that Dorian hid behind the white Monte Carlo? He told me, he told me that it was like he was telling everybody. Like he didn't have no choice but to try and run and hide behind the Monte Carlo while the shooting was occurring. We haven't had a chance to talk. So was he able to see the shooting then while he was hiding behind the Monte Carlo. That's what he said, I haven't talked to him. Okay. Have you seen any of the media coverage of this? Urn, not for real, I try not to watch TV too touch. Okay. You mentioned before you saw Dorian giving statements on CNN and MSNBC? Yeah. Do you recall that? I don't recall what he actually said, people was just telling me and I saw a YouTube clip of it of him on TV. Do you know what people were talking? Like my mother and like people was just talking, he was on TV. Now, , I've got to be honest with you, okay. I mean, based on what you are telling me today, it is substantially different than what you told the FBI before, okay. You talked about seeing one shot to the head before and then you talked about seeing the police officer stand over Mike Brown and shoot four more times into his body, do you recall that? Yeah. Did you see that or did you not? I heard. Okay. So you didn't actually see the police officer fire four more shots into Michael Brown? I didn't actually see it because I was going down the steps. Okay. But his That's why we need to clarify what you actually saw versus these things that you assume or what you think you heard because it is important. It is not assuming if I'm going down the steps and I hear boom, boom, boom, but ain't nobody else out there got hit. Ain't no one else out there injured. That is just common sense. Back when you talked to the FBI previously, that was on August 13th, okay, just a few days after this happened, about four days after this happened. You told them that after the officer shot Brown in the head, he shot him eight more times. Yeah. And you said that you saw him fire four more shots into Mike Brown's body as Mike Brown's laying there lying on the ground? Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah. Today you are telling me you didn't see those shots; is that right? More importantly I heard. That's what I'm just trying to determine. Did you see those shots or did you hear them? I didn't see them, but I heard them on my way running downstairs. You said there was a 10 second pause and more shots? Yes. Okay. We're talking about now and then a total of ten shots is what you were talking about? Yes. So as you sit here today, how many shots did you actually see. I saw one, but heard nine. Okay. So you are saying today that you just saw one shot? When he got shot in the head he fell when he was already basically deceased. On August 13th when you said that the police officer stood over him and shot him four more times, you didn't actually see that; is that right? Yes. Okay. You told me today that you actually didn't see any injuries to Michael Brown before the shot to the head; is that right? Yeah. You didn't see any bleeding or wounds or anything like that. I couldn't see because his back was turned towards that way. Okay. See, that's a problem I have today is that back on August 13th you told the FBI that Mr. Brown had blood flowing from his shoulder or rib cage on his left side. Did you actually not see that? I didn't see exactly where he got shot at. I said, I knew he had got shot I heard the first shot cause he stopped and he was sitting in the middle of the street. Like I told you, with his hands in the air. Right. But what I'm telling you is that you've told me today you didn't see any injuries to Michael Brown when he was down on his knees in the street. Before you had told the FBI that he had blood flowing from his shoulder and rib cage on his left side, somewhere on his left side, do you recall that? Yes. Did you all actually see that or not? No, I didn't actually see. Okay. So when you told the FBI that on August 13th, you actually did not see that? That was something that I heard. That's why you told me to tell you what I actually saw, so I'm telling you what I actually saw. Someone in the community-- Who was that? Who told you? I don't know. There was a whole bunch of crowds, people was telling me all type of stuff.

  • That's why we want to talk to you. You understand that there is a lot of people talking --

  • I don't know. There was a whole bunch of crowds, people was telling me all type of stuff.

    That's why we want to talk to

  • Who told you? I don't know. There was a

  • Who was that? Who told you?

  • That was something that I heard. That's why you told me to tell you what I actually saw, so I'm telling you what I actually saw. Someone in the community--

    Who was that?

  • Okay. So when you told the FBI that on August 13th, you actually did not see that?

    That was something that I

  • No, I didn't actually see. Okay. So when you told the

  • Did you all actually see that or not?

    No, I didn't actually see.

  • Yes. Did you all actually see

  • Right. But what I'm telling you is that you've told me today you didn't see any injuries to Michael Brown when he was down on his knees in the street. Before you had told the FBI that he had blood flowing from his shoulder and rib cage on his left side, somewhere on his left side, do you recall that?


  • I didn't see exactly where he got shot at. I said, I knew he had got shot I heard the first shot cause he stopped and he was sitting in the middle of the street. Like I told you, with his hands in the air.

    Right. But what I'm telling

  • Okay. See, that's a problem I have today is that back on August 13th you told the FBI that Mr. Brown had blood flowing from his shoulder or rib cage on his left side. Did you actually not see that?

    I didn't see exactly where

  • I couldn't see because his back was turned towards that way.

    Okay. See, that's a problem

  • You didn't see any bleeding or wounds or anything like that.

    I couldn't see because his

  • Yeah. You didn't see any bleeding

  • Okay. You told me today that you actually didn't see any injuries to Michael Brown before the shot to the head; is that right?


  • Yes. Okay. You told me today

  • On August 13th when you said that the police officer stood over him and shot him four more times, you didn't actually see that; is that right?


  • When he got shot in the head he fell when he was already basically deceased.

    On August 13th when you said

  • Okay. So you are saying today that you just saw one shot?

    When he got shot in the head