This is Kathi Alizadeh on October 23rd, 11:07 a.m. Present in the grand jury is Sheila Whirley and all 12 grand jurors and the court reporter.
The next thing we're going to do is play a statement for you. The statement is from a witness named I believe it's,
, I'll verify that. She had previously talked to the County Police, but this is a statement you're going to hear is a statement that was done yesterday, I believe, at FBI headquarters. I can't be sure, but the statement is being taken by, the questioning is being done by , who is the attorney for the Department of Justice. You have heard her voice on several statements. You will also hear the voice of
, who is the assistant United States attorney who you probably heard his voice on several statements.
And there is also an FBI agent who is a female who is a female who pipes in a couple of times during the statement. I'm not sure as I sit here today because I listened to this last night because I got it last night because it happened yesterday afternoon.
I can't recall if they identified who the FBI officer, but this was a statement done yesterday.
The statement lasts an hour, and hour 40 minutes, 38 minutes. So it might be that we break after hearing the first hour of it. Since it is a little after a 11 now, and then you guys can have your lunch, then we would resume and let you listen to the last part of it and then have the witness testify in the afternoon, all right.
With that being said, , because we don't have a transcript, I would like you to transcribe the interview. But we can pause the recording since we've marked this disc that contains the interview as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50.
(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50 marked for identification.) I don't know street names, but I can give you detail directions that I went.
MS. Oh, that's fine, I'm just going to go ahead and just kind of do a little introduction, okay.
It is October 22nd, 2014. It is approximately 2:14 p.m. This is special agent
at the FBI field office, 2222 Market Street, St. Louis, Missouri. I am here with USA
, DOJ prosecuting attorney and we are interviewing?
MS. And, , can you spell, is it, your name for me?
It's capital MS. Do you have a middle name? MS. What's your date of birth? MS. And your social security number?
MS. What is the best contact number for you?
That's area code MS. Is that your cell phone?
Yes, I'm straight cell. MS. What's that?
I'm straight cell. MS. Oh.
No landline. MS. What's your address. MS. Okay. All right. MS. So before we begin, you introduced as , is that okay if I call you that?
Yes. MS. Okay. I want to let you know we talked a little bit when you came in. We're just trying to figure out what the truth is and so we don't want to talk about what you may have heard from other people or what you have seen on TV or read or anything like that, just what you know, okay. This investigation, like any other, where we are just trying to get at the truth.
We have to let you know that, we tell this to everybody, if you lie to a federal agent, and you, (inaudible) it is a crime. You are better off not saying a word and just not talking to us if you plan on lying and sitting in here and telling us lies.
With that in mind, we just ask you, we are going to ask you to tell us what you remember. If you don't know something, or don't remember, that's perfectly fine. Just, you know, as I said, our goal is to figure out what happened, okay?
Right. MS. We don't want you to think if one way or the other (inaudible) of what you have to say, you are just a piece of the puzzle, okay?
Okay. MS. Can you just tell us, we know what you originally said in your first statement, but we as prosecutors wanted to get to meet you. So can you just rundown what you saw and experienced on August 9th?
Urn, okay. You want me to start from where I started at QT?
MS. Well, yes, I know you stopped at the QT, but you were on your way somewhere to begin with?
I was on my way to visit a friend from high school that I thought lived off Florissant, but turned out lived in Florissant.
I ended up in Florissant -- or on Florissant Road.
Once I realized that I was lost, this is before I had my GPS. I stopped at the QT. 270 is up here and I stopped at the QT and I asked for directions. And I didn't follow them very well, instead of making a right out of QT, I made a left. And I realized I went the wrong way, so I made another immediate left.
But then I seen the apartments, my friend lived in an apartment. I thought, well, maybe I was in the right spot after all.
And I went down that street and I passed two streets and then a parking lot and went into the second parking lot, which is technically the same one because it loops around a building. And I pulled in there and I made a left and I parked there and then I walked back out in front of that building to ask for directions.
And then that's when I seen the officer's SUV for the first time, it is a bigger vehicle, for the first time. And he was talking to two African-American gentlemen.
And then he started to leave and then he put the car in reverse and said something, and I did not hear what was said. And then the next thing I know, the heavier set African-American was in the car from approximately the waist up. And then I heard the gun go off, I didn't hear any kind of conversation. I heard noises, but not what was being said.
I heard the gun go off, I only remember one gunshot. The skinnier African-American took off running and the heavier set one that they call Mike Brown stood up, and I seen him pull his shorts up and take off running.
The officer got out of the car and had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun in his right hand. And his right hand was shaking and he was stumbling from one foot to the other, and I don't know what he said. All I heard was, or I'll shoot.
And then that's when Michael Brown, the heavier set, turned around and face-to-face with the officer and he had his hands out extended like this, or whatever, kind of like, you know, what are you going to do.
He wasn't saying anything at that time that I heard. And then the officer had his gun, was drawn and pointed at him, and that's when Brown started to charge, you know, kind of like a football, like this, with his hands out.
MS. And your hands are clenched.
Right, his hands were clenched at this time. He was slightly bent, but not much. It was kind of like a football charge not, you know, and then that's when the gunshots started.
I don't remember the sequence or the order. I know that the gun went off a couple of times and then stopped and then went off again.
And then when the last gunshot went off, which was in the head, that's when I started to get freaked out and I got in my car and I left. As I was leaving, I couldn't go out the same parking lot I had come in, they had, that was all blocked. So I zigzagged through the parking lot and I popped out the third one over here, and I made a right and went through the neighborhood.
I got lost in there for about 20 minutes, but I ended up on a street that goes in a complete circle and then I made a right and popped out on a side road next to QT, which is where I asked the person at QT again where the nearest highway was.
MS. So let me go back and ask you some questions I have.
Okay. MS. Starting with the QT. When you went and asked for directions, did you go inside or did you ask somebody in the parking lot?
I asked somebody at the gas pump.
MS. Both times or first time?
Both times. MS. And did you go inside at all.
No. If we got surveillance video from the gas pump, you would be on it?
Yes. MS. Okay. And so when you drove, you said you ended up by an apartment complex. You thought it was your friend's apartment complex, what made you think that?
Because she had said she lived in apartments right off Florissant. And I thought she meant right off Florissant, she meant in Florissant. I never did find my friend.
MS. Okay. Before you were describing it you said that you thought that you noticed these apartment complexes and you went in thinking that was where she lived and then you got out and asked for directions again. At what point did you still think you were at the apartment complex?
No, once I got in there because once I got past the first two streets and I started to go around the bend, it didn't look like the pictures that I had from her, and that's why I was confused.
MS. What is your friend's name. MS. Do you have a phone number for her?
I do, it is at home. She's, we met when
MS. So you said in high school, right?
We met my freshman year of high school.
MS. Okay. MR. She was one of the
? Correct. MS. What school did you go to? It was early '80s I guess.
MR. you went to?
Yes. MR. is her name?
Yes. MR. How do you spell her last name?
MS. And how do you spell with an I or a Y?
MS. Have you spoken to her since this?
Just a couple times. We were really, really close when
And then they had that situation
, what do you call, , and we let her so she wouldn't have to deal with it. We went through a lot together, so.
MS. You said you never made it to her house that day, did you call her afterwards?
I emailed her and told her. MS. What did you tell her?
Just that I had gotten lost. I didn't tell anybody anything except for my ex-husband, which he
MS. Who is
He's being obnoxious. MS. What do you mean?
Well, he told me not to come in here at all.
Just because we have three MS. Meaning what?
He doesn't, he has cable, I don't. He hears about the death threats and everything and just says that he doesn't want his mixed up in it. MS. So why did you decide to go against his suggestion?
Because the one thing my father taught me before he passed away regardless, you always tell the truth and you always admit to whatever, if it's the truth.
Unfortunately, I have been in trouble once before by the law.
MS. Okay. How did you get in trouble, what was that?
I grabbed a black checkbook instead of a brown checkbook or blue checkbook.
MS. Did you get convicted of anything?
Yes, because my dad, even though it was an accident, it is still my signature and the adult thing to do would be to accept responsibility, so I pled guilty.
MS. What did you plead guilty to, what was the charge?
You know, I really am not 100 percent sure. I think it was check fraud is what it would have gone down.
MS. How long ago was that?
In '07, I believe. MS. Did you --
I didn't do any time. I explained the situation to the judge and the judge said since I was taking responsibility, he would give me just probation.
MS. How long were you on probation for?
Three years. MS. Was it a felony.
It was considered two felonies, but they did an SIS.
So that as long as I didn't get in trouble throughout the three years that it wouldn't be on my record.
MS. Okay. MR. Did you have any trouble during that three years?
No. MR. Have you had any other kind type of problems at all like that?
I haven't even got so much as a ticket so, before or after.
MS. So when you pulled into the parking lot in this complex, you got out of your car to ask for directions, was there somebody that you were going over to ask directions or were you just looking for somebody?
I walked up to the first gentleman I seen, he was kind of a heavy set guy with a green shirt, and had his hair in braids and it was real short.
MS. Okay. Why did you park your car and walk up to him as opposed to just drive up to him?
It's just what I do. MS. Okay.
It is easier for me just to park, get out, and then I can sit and conversate and I was able to have a cigarette.
MS. I guess, you know, if it is all good but
I've always done it. MS. And that's fine. I'm talking about the reality of life is you are in a neighborhood that you don't know and you are getting out of your car and walking up to somebody you don't know, and I don't know, you are more trustful than the average person, or maybe I'm more skeptical than the average person, especially a woman in a neighborhood that you don't know.
I just always have. I don't know, I could be down in the city or whatever and ask for directions, and I will get out.
MS. Okay. So you get out
I don't get lost any more, my mom bought me a GPS.
MS. Okay. You get out of the car and you see this guy, and at what point did you notice the police car?
I didn't notice him until they were talking the first time. And no, I didn't hear anything that was said the first time around. He was just kind of driving up next to him.
MS. Did you get the opportunity to ask this guy for directions or was your attention diverted to the police car?
I started to ask him, and then I lit a cigarette, and then my attention became drawn to the police car. That's why I had to ask directions again at QT.
MS. Was the guy you are talking to, was he watching was going on also?
Yes. MS. So you look over and you see the police car and you say that, when I say car, I mean SUV, and you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and who?
The, well, I know it is Mike Brown now, at the time it was a heavy set African-American and a skinny African-American.
MS. And did you --
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, when, urn, he backed up, when he first tried to get out, the heavier set one did push the door shut, but so did the skinnier one. And the skinnier one lost a bracelet on the ground, it is a gold bracelet.
I'm sorry. MS. You're fine, totally fine, okay I know in your last statement you said one of the things you kept saying was I'm not a very good witness.
I'm not. MS. Let me tell you this as a prosecutor. A good witness is somebody who is truthful. And that's all it takes to be a good witness, right, nobody should be a professional witness, right. Because we just ask about what we see going on in our daily lives.
I kind of want to get that out of your head, just focus on the fact that all we want is the truth, right, so and that's ultimately what we are getting at. However, you characterize yourself good or bad, that doesn't matter either as long as you tell the truth, okay.
Okay. MS. Back up to when you saw the SUV and you said you saw interaction and you can call him Mike Brown, you know their names now?
I know their names now. MS. So then you can call them Mike or Dorian, whatever you feel comfortable.
Okay. MS. You see the SUV and you see the interaction, who was interacting with whom?
They both were interacting the second time.
MS. So the initial thing that you see.
The initial time I only seen the officer say something to Mike Brown.
MS. Okay. How do you know the officer was talking to Mike Brown.
He was closer and Mike was responding. And it was definitely conversation, I just have no idea what was said.
MS. Okay. Was Mike Brown going in the same direction or opposite direction of the SUV.
When I looked over there they were side by side.
MS. Okay. Where was Dorian Johnson relative to the SUV?
The first time? MS. Right, in this initial, when you initially see him.
He was off about 3 feet. MS. Was he closer to the back of the SUV or the front of the SUV compared to Mike?
Compared to Mike, I would say the back, but I don't really remember.
I don't, I honestly, I mean, I didn't give it a whole lot of thought until after Mike Brown went into the car.
MS. We understand that. Our job is to push you and see how much detail we can get out of you.
Right. MS. If you don't know, you don't know, that's why we are asking all of these questions.
MR. When did you first see Mike and Dorian?
From the first time that they were communicating.
I paid absolutely no attention, there was a ton of people there.
MR. You didn't see them until they were actually, until the police car was actually beside them and they were communicating with the policeman?
Correct. I'll stick with that because I might have seen them, I just didn't, it's not dawned, I can't say for sure or anything, you know, I didn't give them any of my attention.
MS. How long were you there before you saw that?
It was like instantly. MS. So you didn't notice when you were driving in, you didn't notice anything?
No. I didn't pay, I mean, I was staring so much at the building addresses and where there were the most people that I could get out and ask for directions.
MS. So if you saw anybody close to the road, you would have stopped and get out of the car.
I would have stopped and get out of the car so I could have a cigarette, and actually get step by step instructions. I'm not good on directions. So I couldn't get ahold of anybody, I didn't have of my cell phone on me at the time so.
MS. Okay. So you see, you are at the part where you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and Michael Brown, because your statement is based upon what you, yourself, saw. You could tell there was some sort of interaction, correct?
Correct. I didn't realize that the officer was even an officer. When I first pulled in, or whatever, he was coming this way, I guess, and I never even acknowledged that he was an officer when I pulled in.
MS. What sort of vehicle was he in?
Looks like one of those like van or SUV type.
Big vehicles. MS. Was it marked?
Yes, it had police and then underneath it said Ferguson.
MS. So then what about when you say you didn't realize he was an officer?
I wasn't paying any attention. I was so focused on staring at the building numbers that when I pulled in, or whatever, and I passed and there was a lot of people standing right here, I just pulled in right away. It wasn't until I got out and walked this way, or whatever, that I realized that, you know, that it was even an officer. I was going to wait and just get directions from the guy because the officer was already busy.
MS. Okay. My next question was, did you consider getting directions from the officer.
I didn't, no, because he was already occupied.
And he looked very occupied. MS. All right. So after you see this interaction between Michael Brown and the officer, then what's the next thing you see?
After the first altercation? MS. We are just talking about step by step.
Okay. MS. You're getting out of your car, you see him before you spoke to the man about directions; is that right?
Correct. MS. And then what?
And then the officer goes up, you know, like he's going to drive away, he doesn't really go too far, just a few rolls of the tire, or whatever. And then he comes back, or whatever, you know, comes and backs up. And Dorian and Michael Brown, Brown walked up to the car and words were exchanged and then Brown entered into the vehicle from the waist up.
MS. Let me ask you when you say words were exchanged, what do you mean by that?
The officer's mouth was moving. I have no idea what was said.
MS. I'm just asking why you chose that phrase.
Right. MS. You use that phrase exchange, the officer's mouth was moving, was there any--
I did not hear Mike Brown. MS. Were you able to see Mike Brown's face at that point?
No, he was facing, because I was here on the sidewalk and the officer's car was kind of cockeyed or crooked, or whatever, and Brown was right at the window.
MS. Your vantage point was of the driver's side?
Correct. MS. Based on what you are describing now. Okay. And so you see words were exchanged and then what happened?
The officer had words. MS. Okay.
I seen him talking, but I don't know what he had said. And then the next thing I know, Mike Brown was lunging into the car, like dived in and it was only from the waist up that he was in the car.
MS. What was your reaction when you saw this?
My honest reaction? MS. Yeah, absolutely.
I was cussing. At the time I was just like, I actually even said to the guy, is he F-ing crazy.
MS. You can use the language, we have heard worse, we've said worse.
I said, is he fucking crazy. MS. Okay.
And then it just starts happening, I didn't say anything more than that. After the gun went off, I did say damn and then I said shit, and then I got really nervous.
MS. I don't need a litany of curse words you used. I just kind of want to understand your reaction to what is going on. So you see, you said lunge in and from how far down his body?
To about his belt, naval. MS. Okay. And that's when, and your reaction was one of, I guess, surprise, right?
I had never seen anybody treat an officer like that way before.
MS. What was Dorian doing at the time?
At that time he punched the car door shut because he punched it with his wrist and he punched it with his wrist, something gold fell off his hand out of his right wrist I think.
MS. Let me ask you this. At what point did the door open to get punched shut by Dorian?
When did it open? MS. Yeah.
After I heard the gunshot. MS. Okay. So when you're saying, maybe I'm getting confused. When you are talking about Dorian punching the door shut, that's after the gunshot?
Before the gunshot. MS. Okay.
Once the gunshot went off, Dorian took off.
MS. Okay. Let's back up a little bit.
I'm sorry. MS. No, no, no, don't apologize. When you see the officer saying some sort of words to Michael Brown, Michael Brown is by the door, was the door open or closed?
At that time the door was shut.
He attempted to open it, because it did open, it did unlatch.
MS. He, meaning who?
The officer unlatched the door.
MS. How do you know it unlatched?
It started to open, you could tell that it was definitely in the process of opening.
MS. Okay. And then how did it close?
With Michael Brown's hands. MS. You are showing
The base of his hands, he shoved it shut the first time, and then the second time he, I can't, I don't know. I don't know if it was his fist or with his gut.
MS. You are saying the officer tried to open the door twice in a row?
Correct. MS. When did Dorian get involved with that?
That was right after the second time he went up and punched the rear view mirror.
MS. Punched, meaning what?
With his wrist, with his right wrist.
MS. So you are showing the side of his hand?
The side of his wrist. MS. The side of his wrist?
In a fist motion. MS. Okay. And then what did you say about something gold?
Something gold fell off Dorian Johnson's wrist, the skinnier one.
And it fell on the ground. MS. And after that happened, is that when
That's when the gun went off.
MS. When did Brown lunge into the car.
Okay. I'm sorry, you are making me nervous.
MS. I don't want to make you nervous.
After the second time Brown shoved the door shut, the second time, I don't know if it was with his fist or with his, you know, with his gut. And Dorian Johnson was standing there at that time, he looked like he punched the rear view mirror, but he ended up knocking something off his right wrist and it fell on the ground.
He went to bend down to pick it up and that's when Mike Brown jumped into the car head first, but only went up to his naval into the window.
MS. Were you able to see what the officer was doing when Mike Brown did that, when he went through the window?
He was getting punched. MS. How can you tell?
Because Mike Brown's fist kept going up and down. You knew he was getting hit, even though he was all the way back.
MS. When you say he was getting hit all way back, you talking about who?
The officer was being shoved back.
As Brown was laying on top of him from the waist up and Brown's fist was going up and down on the side.
MS. How were you able to see this if when I asked you before you said Brown's body, a lot of it was blocking the doorway of the car?
He was in the car from here up, bent over and the officer was laid back in the car and Dorian was almost completely on top of him.
MS. Dorian was?
No, the heavier set one. I'm going to stick with that if that's all right.
MS. Whatever makes you feel --
I really don't know which one is which.
MS. I want you to describe this to me in the way that is most comfortable for you. Okay. I don't want you to think we are trying to get any certain way out of you.
I need to go with the heavier set and the skinnier one.
MS. Okay. I don't want you to be nervous at all. If at any time you don't want to talk to us, we are not forcing you to.
Right. MS. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable or we're making you nervous, we just want to know what happened, okay?
Right. MS. And you tell us in the easiest way that you can, all right.
All right. MS. If you want to use bigger one and little one, that's fine.
Okay. MS. The bigger one you said was in the window and the officer you said was leaning back?
Right. And there's about this much of a gap between Brown, the heavier set one's body and the thing of the car, the window.
MS. So there is a gap --
There is just enough of a gap that you could see the heavier set one's fist going up and down into the officer's face.
Or into the officer's body, put it that way because I didn't know where the officer was getting hit until after the officer got out.
MS. All right. And so while this is going on, what's your reaction?
At this time I was really scared, but I was just kind of standing there, it almost seemed fake at some point or whatever, and now and then just disbelief.
MS. Was the guy next to you, was he saying anything to you?
At that time, no. MS. Were you standing next to him?
I was standing exactly next to him.
MS. Do you know his name?
No. MS. Did you ask him his name?
I didn't really care about names at that point.
MS. Okay. Did you know anything else about him other than?
Green T-shirt, heavy set, and braids.
MS. Okay. Do you know, do you happen to know the address near where you were standing, did you look at the numbers?
No, but when you pull into, down there and as soon as you go around the bend and you start to see the buildings, it is the very first building on the right.
MS. Okay. All right. So let's go back. You see the bigger one, these punching motions and then what's the next thing that happened?
That's when I heard the gun go off.
And Dorian Johnson, the skinnier one, took off towards the street that QT is on.
Heavier set one took off in the opposite direction down towards into the complex.
And then the officer opened the door, and he had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun was in his right hand, and he was wobbling from foot to foot and he looked confused, you know. He was kind of stumbling, or whatever, like he wasn't with it, does that make sense?
MS. You're fine.
He obviously had just got hit.
MS. You said obviously got hit based on what?
The way he was acting, it just looked like he was dizzy.
MS. Okay. When you say his left hand, was it above his ears on his face?
Get out of the car, right hand was on the gun, so yeah.
MS. Where was his hand, on his face?
Now, you got me confused. I want to say the left side of his face, but now you got me confused.
MS. I don't want to confuse you.
It was like right up here.
MS. You showing his entire palm.
Yeah, he just had it up to his head.
MS. Up to his head?
Yeah. MS. Was his palm from his mouth all the way up.
Correct. MS. From what I can flap his head from what you remember.
From what I remember. MS. Okay. And then what happened?
And then he wobbled from foot to foot, I don't know what he said. I remember hearing or I'll shoot, but that's all I remember hearing. And then that's when the heavier set one turned around and faced him. And they were still that distance away.
MS. Had the officer, when the heavy set one turned around, had the officer run or pulled forward in his car or was he still by his war.
He was still by his car. He didn't go towards, Dorian, I didn't see him head that way towards the heavier set one until after the heaver set one turned around and proceeded, you know, started to come this way.
MS. Okay. So describe when the heavier set one turned around, describe what he was doing?
He turned around and he put his hands out like this. (indicating)
MS. That's, now, your hands are here, your hands are kind of out at your sides.
It was like a football thing.
They weren't like this.
MS. Your hands are clenched?
Right. MS. Out, but not up, is that fair to say?
Correct. MS. They are out, but a little bit higher than waist high?
Correct. MS. And did he put his hands out like that before or after he turned around?
After he turned around. MS. What were his hands doing? That's the easier way around it.
He looked like he was having an attitude, he looked like my
MS. How so?
What are you going to do. MS. That expression or that motion he as he turn around.
Correct. MS. What was your vantage point, was your vantage point on him when he turned around, was he facing you?
At this time, yeah, when he turned around, he was facing the officer, which would have been facing this way. I was more in the middle of the building and he was more at the entrance of the parking lot.
MS. When he turned around to get a view of Michael Brown's front.
Correct. Left side, partial front like, you know, like the side view.
MS. Okay. As he was running away, do you remember what he was doing with his hands?
Just running, I mean it was. MS. You just demonstrated a running.
Just running, yeah. MS. And his arms are pumping back and forth?
He pulled his pants up once, I know that.
MS. Did his pants appear to be falling to you?
Yes. MS. How so, can you describe that?
He was half mast. MS. Meaning what?
His rear end was hanging out.
He pulled them up twice cause when he first got out of the car, when the altercation stopped at the vehicle before he took off running, he pulled them up as well.
MS. Okay. Then he pulled them up again as he running away?
And then he pulled them up again as he was running down the street and then he turned around and then after that he never pulled them up again.
MS. You said his hands were in like a running position?
Correct. MS. So then what happened?
After he turned around, he was like that and then
MS. When you say like that, that's the what you are going to do about it look?
What are you going to do about it look.
MR. When you do that, you've got your hand and fists and are leaning forward.
He started with the attitude and then he immediately went down into like that football with the fist.
MS. Okay. So what are you going to do attitude his palms are open?
Correct. MS. And then you said he shifted into this like fist, like --
Well, because at this time the officer actually had the gun pointed right at him. I mean, it was obvious that he was getting ready to do something.
MS. Who was getting ready to?
The officer. I mean, when the hand was on the gun, the hand was on the trigger, he was ready to go.
And he was focused. He no longer had that confused just got smacked look, I mean, he was determined to, you know, not
MS. So when this is all happening, you are watching it. So the officer is in one position and Michael Brown, the big one, is in another position. Where are you, who are you looking as you are describing what Brown is doing
When Brown turned around with the, what are you are going to do about it, or whatever. And then I looked at the officer who had his gun, and by this time he come to the back of the SUV. I did not see him go there, when I turned back to him he was already there.
And I looked back at the heavier set one, and he had, by this time bent down in the football position and had his fist made and he began to charge at the officer.
More of a head type first thing.
MS. Can you describe anything about the heavier set guy, what he looked like, what his facial expression was?
At that time he just looked like he was on something.
MS. What makes you say that?
The officer just started shooting him and he didn't do anything. He didn't flinch, he didn't wiggle anyway and he just didn't stop, he just kept going.
And that is when I said to the guy in the green shirt, I said, oh, my gosh, is he ever go to F, you know, quit.
MS. What did you say?
I said, is he ever going to fucking stop.
MS. What did the man in the green shirt say to you?
If he said anything, I don't know. I mean, it was more of just talking his direction.
I mean, he just kept going. And then the gun stopped and he was still alive and if he would have just laid down, and then there was like --