The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everyone says good morning.)

  • It is Thursday, October 23rd at 9:06 a.m. This is Kathi Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is also present, all 12 grand jurors are present as well as , the court reporter, and we need to take up a few matters before we begin with witnesses today.

    Urn, I would imagine all of you, I mean, most of you, if not all of you, have been aware that there have been media reports out there that seem to indicate that there are leaks in the investigation and that reports have been leaked and testimony has been leaked and so forth.

    And first off, as I've said from the very beginning, you all have to be guided by what occurs in this room. We all know sometimes the media doesn't get things right, but you know, if you do read those things, you need to make sure you take that with a grain of salt. You all have heard all the evidence together, so you know what you have heard and seen.

    But I do want to say, and Sheila and I have had a conference, we've had a conference with Mr. McCulloch, we've had conferences with a lot of others, with the County Police Department and everything, and I can assure you that we know that the leak, that the leaks are not coming from the grand jury. There is no doubt in our minds that none of you are the source of that.

    And to tell you the truth, one of the reasons that I know that is the medical examiner's report is out there and I've looked at what's out there, what was leaked by the Post-Dispatch, it was put out there by the Post-Dispatch and I can tell you it is not the copy that you have. It is the medical examiner's report, but every medical examiner's report that we get has a stamp on it. It says not for secondary release.

    And the report that is out there that was published by the Post-Dispatch does have that stamp on there, but it is not the same stamp that I have, and I know it is not the same stamp that is on your copy.

    So it says the same thing, but their's is in a straight line and it is different looking than our stamp, the stamp that we have on our copies.

    And the same thing with the County Police, it is different than the stamp that they have from their copies.

    So wherever this came from, it did not come from our office, it did not come from you guys. You don't have a copy that looks like that, it did not come from the County Police.

    And the other reason why we're fairly, not fairly, we're 100 percent confident that this is not coming from the grand jurors or from the County Police is that in the very beginning when there was a supposed leak, this was a story that was broken by the New York Times, but it was their Washington Bureau that published the story and they cited their source as a government official who had been briefed on the civil rights investigation.

    We are sharing our information with the federal government because they are conducting their own independent investigation and so they have all the same reports and the same things that we have.

    And so we are confident that the leak is someone in probably the Department of Justice and is not coming from St. Louis County Police, not from our office, and not from this grand jury.

    I know you all maybe were concerned about that, but we are 100 percent confident that we're all good.

    The other reason being you all don't take your things home with you. We collect your materials before you leave so that being said, I just want everybody to know that we still have complete confidence in the grand jury and the judicial system and we know that you're going to do your duty and you're going to be guided by the evidence that you've heard during your investigation.

    So that's the first thing. Anything else that we discussed that needs to be said?

    The other thing that we have talked about at the very beginning of this process we kind of had set a goal for ourselves that we were going to try to complete this by mid November.

    If you recall that was originally the idea that we could extend the grand jury or that it could be a six month term and that would put you at like mid November. It was then again extended to January, that was done just out of an abundance of caution in case we didn't get done by mid November.

    We still would like to finish by mid November. I can tell you that the light is at the end of the tunnel so to speak. We have discussed what we have left to put on and I will tell you there are approximately 15 eyewitnesses or lay witnesses who we believe would have valuable testimony to give. However, I will tell you that I don't know, we are making our best efforts to get everyone in, but I can tell you that you some of these witnesses are resisting.

    Some of them have frankly said there is no way I'm coming in, no way I'm going to testify. We're trying to get witnesses under subpoena, but if you knock on the door and nobody answers, we have no right to, you know, kick in the door and serve them with a subpoena.

    We can only do so much. So even though we have potentially 15 lay witnesses that we may still call, I expect we are not going to be able to call all of those witnesses. We are going to do our best.

    But in the event that we want to wrap this up, if we try our best to wrap this up in mid November, we talked about possibly going to again a three day a week schedule. That would, you know, again, we're trying to get this completed and by all means, there is no deadline so you all don't feel that you have the time, there is no magic date, there is no reason this hasn't to be done on a certain date.

    With that in mind, if you can talk during your lunch break today about your November schedule because we don't have any dates yet for November and think about including an additional day.

    I know you've been very generous to give us two days a week, and keep in mind as well that from the very beginning we've said if you all need to meet in the evening or Saturday or Sunday, even if it is a half day on Saturday or Sunday, we will be there, we will do it.

    The other thing that we talked about is that there was a question early on about possibly getting the police vehicle for you all to see for yourself, which I've already investigated that and we can't.

    It's been repaired, so it has a window in it now and I haven't seen it myself whether or not the demarcation where the bullet hole was, I don't know if that's still there. But I know that you are interested in how big the vehicle is, how tall it is, what it might be like to stand next to it and so forth.

    We can have that done a number of ways. We can have that done a number of ways. We can bring that here and made available for you in the parking garage for you all to get in, examine, get around. However, if we do it here, it would be wise not to do it during business hours, because there's really no place in the parking garage where we can do this where people won't see you up and around a Ferguson Police car.

    We have construction workers in the parking garage, there are county employees, we have just members of the public that can park in the parking garage.

    If you would like to see the vehicle here in this location, I would suggest that maybe if we do that on an evening or weekend where nobody will be down here, no construction workers, very few county employees.

    The other possibility is that we could bring the vehicle to the St. Louis County Police Academy, which is in Wellston, it is maybe a 15 minute drive from here. We put you all in a van and take you out there.

    They've got a secure garage and you could exit there. If you recall Detective talked about it, they had towed it to their garage which is a secure facility here in Clayton. I can investigate whether or not that garage might be available.

    The problem with that is, it contains other evidence, there might be things in there the County Police may say, yeah, we can't let these people in here, we have other evidence in other cases and it would be compromised, the integrity of other investigations. So, plus I'm not 100 percent sure that that garage is even still there.

    They're in the process of demolishing buildings, that might not even be available, but those are a couple options bringing it here and seeing it on a weekend or evening or taking a field trip to the police academy to exit there. So you guys can talk about that as well.

    Sheila has a better recollection than me, so I have to always ask her did I forget everything.

  • She has the gift of grab.

  • I do. I'm the mouth and she's the brains. So you all had asked for a topographical map at some point, I have one that I will pass out today. Don't know how helpful it is going to be for you. I looked at it, I don't know. It is the only one that we can come up with without actually, you know, I guess hiring a company to go out there and do that.

    And then also you had asked for the floor plans of the apartments in the complex, I've got that as well.

    Also, there was a question about whether or not we were going to call Dr. , the pathologist who was hired by the family of Michael Brown to perform an independent autopsy. It was actually the second autopsy on the remains.

    There was then later a third autopsy that was done by the Department of Defense medical examiners, which I expect we'll call one of them to tell you what their findings were.

    We have contacted the attorney who represents the family of Michael Brown and asked that they contact Dr. and invite him to testify.

    So we haven't heard back if he's going to be available to do that, or if he's willing to do that, but we're going to make those efforts to try to get him here because I know that there was a question about that.

    What would I do without Sheila. Now, as I said, we have potentially 15 more eyewitnesses who may be testifying. And it's been our habit and our process during this time to play for you every recorded statement that a witness has made.

    We initially were, our goal and plan was to do that before the witness testified, sometimes that didn't work out, but we've always gotten around to playing it eventually for you.

    As you know, sometimes these witnesses make two or three recorded statements, sometimes you've got, you know, statements that are in excess of an hour, hour and a half, hour and 40 minutes, two hours.

    And so our question to you is we can proceed in that manner as we've done in the past or we're wondering if you find it helpful to listen to those statements if those statements are consistent with what the witness testifies to.

    So if the witness testifies, like if we put a witness on and they testify, and Sheila and I who have listened to these tapes feel that there's really no inconsistency in what they already said. I mean, obviously, any statement there could be, you know, minor inconsistencies, and that will be something that she and I will discuss together about whether we think that there are inconsistencies.

    And if we feel that there are not, it would be possible if you feel that that doesn't help you to hear this tape statement again, that we then just forgo playing that taped statement.

    Obviously, it takes up a lot of time and I know it is tiring for you all to sit here and listen and read transcripts.

    So maybe you can discuss that during your lunch as well. If you think that that would be a way to go to try to speed through this. I don't mean speed through it in a way that's not efficient. I don't want to say we're rushing through anything, but if you are finding that it is not really that helpful and you don't need to hear it, then we don't have to play it.

    We have it, we have all of them and, of course, if at any time you would have some issue with, you know what, maybe we should hear that witness' statement that they made before, at any time we can play it for you, okay. So that's something for you to consider. All right.

    Is there anything, you know, that anybody has an issue or question about? You can discuss this during your lunch and then we'll ask questions during the lunch break, especially if we are talking about scheduling issues and things of that nature. Don't necessarily need to afford those kind of things, but let me know after lunch and we have, I think, two people here right now, and going to have to give me a second to get somewhat organized.

  • Yes.

    Officer Wilson, he only had one recorded statement? I know we only heard one, if I'm not mistaken.

  • If I'm not mistaken, Officer Wilson's statement was not recorded prior to him testifying. Check your folders to see if you have a transcript of the testimony of Darren Wilson?

    We have one. There was supposed to have been one with Detective

  • Detective did one that wasn't recorded and then there was one that was recorded, you have a transcript of that?

    We have one that is recorded.

  • My recollection is, we can certainly go back and look at the transcripts, but that Sergeant testified about statements that he made right at the scene when he first got there, and none of that was recorded. And then

    was the detective who went to the police station and did a cursory interview and that was not recorded. And then, you have one?

    That must have been done on the 9th at 10:00 in the morning?

    August lOth.

  • lOth, okay. The 9th is the day of. I knew it was the next morning. All right.

    And then there was Agent who came in and testified that she had interviewed him, but that their interview was not recorded, I believe.

  • All right. I forgot about that.

    Again, if there is a need to bring any witness back that you have already heard from because now you have additional questions, you just need to let us know. We put on things in a way that we think was easier for you to understand the case, but, you know, just the sake of when we put on a witness early on in the process and then now later in the process you might think well, I didn't know that when I heard from that witness before, so now I have a couple of additional questions.

    So if anyone of you feel the need to have any witness who has testified previously return and answer some questions, we will get them here. And obviously, Officer Wilson, I cannot compel him to appear before you, but he appeared previously and I would reach out to his representatives to invite him back if you felt that you would want to hear from him again.

    Any other questions?

    Is there any recorded testimony with Officer Darren Wilson and the FBI or the civil rights investigation?

  • My understanding is, no, that they did not record that. If you recall it was the brunette female FBI agent who came in and testified that she was present and interviewed him that they did not record that.

    I know, now this is reported in the newspaper or whatever, there was a statement that was supposedly made by him about the first two shots. In our transcripts he didn't think he hit him on the second shot because he saw some dirt fly up. But then it was reported later on that he said he thought he did hit him with the second shot. I just wondered if there was any recorded evidence of him saying that?

  • Not that I'm aware of. And I will tell you that, you know, as you can probably imagine, any news agency is not going to reveal to me who the source of their information is. They have this First Amendment thing, freedom of the press.

    And so while it might be --make sense for me to call them and say, hey, where did you get that because we're interested and if you've heard that from another source, we'd like to hear who told you that, but they're not going to tell me.

    And that might be something that if you would care to have another witness back to testify to ask that question, but I don't know where that information came from for that particular news article.

    Two quick things. One, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 2 is the map that we use almost daily. I notice also it still says not to scale. Do you know if you would ever get one to scale or even if it is that much of a difference?

  • That's another thing. That brings up something else. There was a question awhile back about getting a transparency that maybe would have the diagram images that we could lay on top of the map. I did look into that and the problem that I learned with doing that is that map is not to scale and so just because on the map I'm holding my fingers out, if the map says this is 137 feet, I'm just making up a number, of course. There might be another place on the map that says this is 150 feet. And the actual measurement was accurately done, but the map might not be to scale, you know, the entrance, the driveway, you know, to some of these parking entrances might not be as wide in real life as it appears on the diagram. The size of the police vehicle is not necessarily on the diagram the exact size of what it is in the street.

    I would suggest that, you know, I have all of those crime scene photos and if you ever are curious about, you know, the real size of things, you can sift through those photos to see if they can help you determine or answer some of those questions, but I can ask about the possibility of having a diagram to scale.

    It is my, this is strictly my belief based upon my experience that when the police officers do these diagrams, they use a computer program that, I don't think they are done freehand, I think they use a computer program to do these diagrams. And so to do one to scale would require someone, actually, a draftsman type of person, I think, to actually make sure that the diagram is to scale.

    So that would probably have to be done by not the police department, we probably would have to look into whether or not there could be some draftsman that could do that, but I mean, I can investigate that as well if you think it would be helpful.

    But as far as the transparency goes, I'm afraid it might even be misleading if we had a transparency and you laid it on top of the aerial photograph, it might appear that oh, look, this is actually not where it is in the picture because on the transparency it is past the fire hydrant. Well, that just might be because it is not to scale. So I wouldn't want you to rely on something and be misled by that.

    Yes.

    Prior to knowing I was on this case, I remember vaguely hearing in the news there was a gentleman on some sort of audio phone that recorded the succession of gunshots and didn't know, again, I didn't pay much attention to it, I kept it in my memory. I didn't know if that was something even credible or something we will get to.

  • Yes. That is something that the police have the custody of that recording and we will be putting that on for you as well.

    And there was a question quite some time ago about surveillance cameras in the complex and I, believe me, before you guys even got this assignment, that was one of the first questions out of my mouth. Are their surveillance cameras? I was told no.

    Now, before you complete your investigation, probably the very last witness that I will call for you to hear from is going to be Detective , because as the primary case agent, he knows more about this case than any other person.

    So there are some things that he's going to testify about that he did himself and whatnot, but he would be the person to ask a lot of these questions to because he was in charge of the investigation.

    What was done, what did you do about this, did you ever try to get ahold of this person, he can answer a lot of those questions with firsthand knowledge.

    Me, all my knowledge about this comes from other sources because I was not out there investigating the case. So I don't want to be the person to actually have you rely on what I'm telling you, I'm just telling you that it is my understanding that there were not, but that would be a question better put to Detective about that, all right?

    Anyone else? Okay. We have a witness here, the first witness we are going to call and I'm not organized this morning.

    I know that had asked sometime ago would it be possible for us to see where this happened. And I know we had discussed it before and that probably wouldn't be in our best interest to go there. I think somebody had talked

    I think it was About getting pictures of the distance and things like that?

  • That's one of the things we've had that done. I think that Detective when I put him on last we're going to have him show you those pictures because he'll be able to point out for you in the picture this apartment building right here or this window right here, this balcony right here, that's where witness so and so was. And if you see right here, that's where witness so and so was because he's the one that knows that information and in very intimate detail.

    So we do have pictures that we have the police and Detective went out with them to take those pictures to make sure we got the vantage points. We weren't able to take vantage point pictures from where the witness was that would require going into people's apartments and they felt that that wasn't going to be safe or welcomed.

    So the pictures that they took are from the location of where the vehicle was, the location of where Michael Brown's body laying in the street and then the location of the corner near a light post. And those pictures are done in 360, so you might be able to see from here can you see that witness' balcony who says they can see this. That's the best we can do as far as getting vantage point pictures.

    I guess I do have a question. I know that some of these media reports they're saying that he had marijuana in his system. And I guess that's another way of knowing it didn't come from us because we were never told that he had marijuana in his system.

    So is there still like evidence out there that we haven't heard like that?

  • Yes.

    The DNA on the gun?

  • Yes, there's going to be, you know, our plan was to try to get through the eyewitnesses and then at the end put on some of the scientific evidence because frankly those witnesses are there at my fingertips and are going to come in whenever I tell them to come in.

    And so I just knew that when it came time to try to wrap things up, we would be able to get them through in and out fairly quickly. So I do anticipate that you are going to hear additional evidence from experts who have tested various things, all right? of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Do you remember the second part of the oath talks about what happens here, okay?

  • Okay. All right.

  • Have a seat, thank you. You're sure you don't want a glass of water.

  • Can you introduce yourself to the grand jurors?

  • And, ma'am, I'm going to stand back here because the microphone that is up there is not, it is not going to amplify your voice.

  • And so you just need to keep your voice up so that I can hear you back here and then if I can hear you, I know that everybody back here can hear you, okay?

  • And, ma'am, back in August of this year, were you living in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

  • And were you home on Saturday, August 9th?

  • Now, and I told you when I talked to you that I was not going to ask you to give your address, but there is a laser pointer that is sitting right in front of you there.

  • And if you press this gray button here, it makes a laser pointer. Can you show the grand jurors on the map, which is marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, do you recognize these streets, it says Canfield Drive, and for your reference over here is West Florissant, okay?

  • And then over here is the Northwinds Apartments. So that does help orient you to understand the buildings that are shown on the map?

  • Can you put the laser pointer on the building that you were living in back in August?

  • (Indicating)

  • Okay. This building right here?

    (indicating)

  • And can you, now, we've heard testimony already how these buildings are, that there's three floors to every building, correct?

  • What floor were you living on?

  • So that's the top floor?

  • And so this particular building has entrances for units that would be, actually those units would face the west if this is west. And then there's also some entrances to the building that face the east. Was your apartment facing the west or facing the east?

  • I'm kind of confused because the building sits like this and I can see out and see Canfield Court.

  • Okay. Do you know your apartment number back then?

  • Does it help you to look up here? Can you see the number?

  • And so I'm going to point, I'm not going to say it out loud, but is that your apartment number?

  • This one right here? (indicating)

  • So you're, this little out jet right here, that's like a little covered stairwell, staircase; is that right? You take some exterior steps up to the third floor; is that right? Is that how you get in your apartment?

  • So the front door of your apartment is actually right there where that stairwell is, correct?

  • And so you have a window, you have a sliding glass door that's on the front of your apartment?

  • And then there's a window that's also on the front?

  • And is there also a window that would be around the corner?

  • No, okay. So you have a sliding glass door and a window, is that like a bedroom window?

  • Okay. So when you are looking out of the front of your apartment, can you see down to Canfield Drive?

  • All right. So do you recall on the morning of August 9th, was there anything special about that day, that morning that you recall oh, it was, I remember it because it was, had these plans to do something or was it an ordinary day?

  • It was an ordinary day. I was just kind of looking out the window.

  • And do you recall that this was a Saturday?

  • And does your apartment, did your apartment back then have air conditioning?

  • And this was August 9th, and I know that it got warmer in the day, but do you recall if you had your windows opened or closed?

  • Do you normally run the air conditioning in the month of August?

  • Okay. And so you said that you were looking out the window, was there a reason you looked out the window? Was there anything that drew your attention outside or were you just happening to be working out the window?

  • I just happen to be looking out.

  • All right. And then once you were looking out, did you see something unusual?

  • Not unusual at first.

  • Why don't you describe what you saw?

  • Urn, these two boys or two guys walking down the street. They were kind of out in the street, but not all the way out. They weren't quite to the yellow line.

    Then I kind of stepped back a little bit. Then for some reason I looked again and I saw the police car pull up, and he said something to the boys. They, obviously, said something back because you could see the motion of their hands, but I couldn't hear anything because my window was closed.

    Then the boys kind of went on, walked on and then he backed up, the cop backed up, the policeman backed up.

    Then, I guess, I'm not sure what else happened after that, but I could see the one boy, the shorter one, he kind of stepped a little bit past the window of the police car. It was actually an SUV, it wasn't just a regular car, but the bigger guy was standing at the window, near the window of the car. And I could see the top of his head and I could see their hands moving. And so it seemed like they were kind of, I guess, tussling through the window of the car.

    Then the boy, the guy broke loose and began to go down the street and that's when the policeman got out of the car. Then he proceeded, the boy was ahead of him and that's all I could see.

  • Because they were past, they were past my building. See, like my building is here, well, I couldn't see, I could only see the police car and him going so far. I could not see after it passed. They I said, urn, in a few seconds I heard a shot. I don't know whether it was three or four because I really did not necessarily count them, but I knew it was more than two. Oh, my God. I don't guess, you know, they were shooting. This had anything to do with it and I just went on back and started to put my clothes on.

    By that time the crowd of people had started, people had started to come, not a lot of them but, you know, I knew something had happened. So by the time I got out, it was all over. The boy was in the street and the police was beginning to put some cones out.

  • Okay. So let's, you know, we're going to need to go back. We're going to go through step by step and ask some more detailed questions, okay?

  • That's fine.

  • So when you say you were looking out the window.

  • First off, was anybody home with you at that time?

  • No, I was there by myself.

  • And so when you said you happen to look out the window, was it the sliding glass door or was it a bedroom window?

  • It was my bedroom window.

  • Are there any window coverings on that window, blinds, shades?

  • Are they horizontal blinds?

  • And were they, were the blinds down?

  • No, I had it pulled up so high because I was just, you know, looking out. Sometimes I just look out to see what's going on, you know.

  • So did you have to move the blinds in order for you to see out the window?

  • Because they were high enough and by me being up high, I can see on the street, so.

  • And so, and that's a good point. When you're on the third floor of this building, is there a little rise, is this a little bit on a hill somewhat, a small hill?

  • The street? You mean my building?

  • Does the ground, is there any elevation to this, like if you are driving up here and if you walk up to your building, are you walking uphill at all?

  • Okay. So it is pretty level at this point?

  • And from the third floor, from your bedroom window, you could see down to the area that you were seeing the police car?

  • Okay. And so when you look down you said you first saw two boys walking in the street?

  • Did you know either boy?

  • Hadn't seen them before?

  • What about them do you recall. Can you tell me anything about them?

  • One was short, he had dreads, he was darker skin. The other one was a big guy, over 6 feet. You know, he was just a big guy that's basically. I couldn't say whether he was --the only thing I can say was he was a big guy and that he was a lighter skin than the smaller one and that the smaller one had dreads. Because of the fact that I wasn't that close, I couldn't give you details of what they look like.

  • Okay. You refer to them as boys. I want to ask you if you have an opinion as to how old they were?

  • Well, I knew they were all under 25.

  • One of them seemed like he might have been close to 18, 19 years old, the bigger one. He was a big guy, he didn't really look that old. The other one he looked, I don't know, maybe he could have been just a year or so older than the other one. As far as the size and the way they were dressed, and what have you.

  • Did you, at this point now do you recall any time when you have seen either of them in the apartment complex before that day?

  • Not to my knowledge I haven't seen them.

  • And so how about how they were dressed or what they were wearing, do you have any memory of what either one of them had on?

  • Not specific. I really didn't pay that much attention to it. All I know is that they were, let's see, I really didn't pay that much attention to them. Just had normal clothes on.

  • I wasn't specifically looking for anything.

  • As far as they were concerned they were just people walking down, two guys walking down the street.

  • And was that unusual that there would be two older teenagers walking down the street?

  • No, no. It's an apartment complex and there is apartments on each side. There are families, there are a lot of youngsters living in the apartment complex at this point. When I first moved in, there wasn't quite as many males, younger males in the apartment.

    So you see them all day. You just see them when I'm home, you know.

  • Hanging out, walking around?

  • Hanging out, they're walking around, what is it, they are interacting with each other. Sometimes they have cars parked, they are sitting on cars. I don't really pay a whole lot of attention.

  • It is just that particular morning, which I do every morning, I just look out. It is really more of a safety thing. If I'm going to leave out of my house, out of my apartment, I want to know what is surrounding me.

  • So I don't really always look at features and clothing they have on, this kind of thing. I know this little guy with the dreads, he was so much shorter than the bigger guy.

  • Okay. And when you saw them, can you use that laser pointer and show me where on the map here the boys were when you first saw them. Were they on Canfield Drive?

  • Can you use that and show me where you first saw them?

  • They were on this, let me see. They were kind of, this map is really confusing me because they were on this side of the street.

  • Okay. I don't know if that's, that might be pointing up to high?

  • I'm just saying they were on this side of the street.

  • They were on this side of the street.

  • On the south side of the street?

  • They were on this side of the street. My apartment, wait a minute, I'm getting confused. My apartment is over there.

  • Uh-huh. Over here? (indicating)

  • Yeah, they were on this side of the

  • Over here? (indicating)

  • That's too far over. You have Canfield Drive and Coppercreek and all of this over there. They were on the opposite side of the street from my apartment.

  • There is a fire hydrant on my side of the street. They were like the fire hydrant was right here and they were kind of just a little bit, I'm trying to think now. They were a little bit, not quite even with the fire hydrant.

  • But the opposite side of the street?

  • Okay. So that is kind of confusing me because I'm looking at it from my side.

  • Sure, yeah. This is an aerial view.

  • They were on the opposite side of my apartment.

  • Which means that when they were coming, they were coming like walking kind of like, not straight, they were kind of walking at an angle and they were like not all the way in the middle of the street, but they were still in the street.

  • And when the policeman pulled up to them, it kind of like blocked my view of what was going on because of the size of the vehicle that the cop was in.

  • Okay. Let's back up then.

  • So the boys were walking on Canfield?

  • Were they walking in that direction toward Northwinds or were they walking towards --

  • No, they were walking toward Northwinds. The policeman was going toward West Florissant.

  • Okay. So the policeman's vehicle is moving toward them and they are walking to the police vehicle. They're facing each other, the vehicle and the boys as the boys are walking?

  • Yes, the police were going this way and the boys were running this way.

  • Could you tell this was a police vehicle?

  • Sure, it had the emblems and everything on it.

  • Okay. Had how about the lights, you know, police cars have the red lights?

  • He didn't have any lights on.

  • It seems likes he was coming from Northwinds from that way, that is the way he was coming.

    He had no signal light on and then he just stopped. He didn't stop all the way because he still had, his car was still running, he just had, like you just know how you pull up to somebody and you switch to put on your brake and he was talking to them.

  • Okay. So you observed the vehicle come up to the boys and you said it looked like they're talking. You could see their hands moving and stuff?

  • Yeah, that's all I could see was movement. I knew that there was some kind of verbal conversation going on between the three people.

  • So the car is between you and the boys, correct?

  • And so does that mean that the boys would have been on the driver's side of the vehicle?

  • It looked like they were near the driver's door?

  • At that time the first beginning of it they were kind of a little ways away from him because he was talking to them through the window.

  • Okay. And so about how long do you think this part of it last?

  • A couple of seconds, not really long.

  • Could you see the officer inside the vehicle?

  • I could see him inside the vehicle, but, you know, just the shadow of him because, you know, his window on my side was up, so I could only see the shadow of him.

  • So could you tell if he was white or black, or male or female, or anything about the officer?

  • You mean when he was in the car?

  • What about, could you tell if there was anyone else inside the vehicle?

  • There was only one person.

  • All right. And so you said that this part of it where they appear to be talking to each other last just a couple of seconds and so what happens next?

  • The boys walked away.

  • Okay. And then at this point are the boys just still walking casually or they running?

  • They still in the street, they still just walking casually.

  • They're not running?

  • Okay. So then what happens?

  • The cop backs up, he backs up a just a little bit and stops and gets out. He backs up to catch up with them.

  • He catches up with them, by then the boys, the little one, he's kind of away from, he was not at the window, he's kind of walking away. The bigger guy was having some kind of interaction with the cop.

  • Okay. I think you described, initially you described that you could see their hands going back and forth?

  • Yeah, it was like. It was like, if I'm talking to you in the car and we're having a discussion and something happens and you're like wrestling with each other, not wrestling, you know, the hands are going, you can see the hands going.

  • I could not see what was actually happening, all I could see was the moves.

  • Was the police vehicle moving?

  • No, the vehicle was stopped.

  • Was it rocking or anything like that?

  • No, it didn't look like it was rocking to me.

  • And just from your, just from what you could see, could you tell or did you have an impression as to might have initiated the physical part of it, could you tell? Could you see the officer reach his hand out of the vehicle to grab the boy or you saw the boy stick his hand in the vehicle first, could you tell who started it?

  • Okay. And so could you tell whether any punches were exchanged?

  • Not from where I could see because, I never saw anything other than the top of the kid's head and the fact that they were tussling with each other. I never seen him bend or I never seen any movement where there was punching or anything. All I could see was like they were wrestling through the window.

  • I want you to think and if you need to close your eyes and picture it in your head, did you ever see the boy that's wrestling at the officer's vehicle with the officer, did you ever see, you can see his head, he's taller than the car then, right?

  • Did you ever see his head disappear?

  • All right. And you couldn't see what was going on inside of the car?

  • All right. And then how long did that wrestling part last?

  • I don't know, maybe, not long, it wasn't a long confrontation. Maybe about ten seconds or something, I'm not sure, that's just a guess.

  • And then what happened next?

  • The boy broke away and started to leave.

  • Okay. Now, at this point had you heard any gunshots?

  • So when you say the boy broke away, you mean the taller, bigger boy?

  • And I know you said that the smaller boy kind of was not right at the driver's window, but was kind of off to the side?

  • Well, he was out of my sight.

  • I don't know where he went, but he was not in my sight, which means he could have just went further down the street and would have been out of my view.

  • Okay. So you don't know what happened to him?

  • What happened to the other boy?

  • No. All I know is he's walking away.

  • And at this point did you notice any other cars that were on Canfield Drive?

  • I didn't see any other cars.

  • And so you say that the boy broke away and then what happened, what did he do?

  • He just walked away and he walked out of my view.

  • When he broke away, did he, so if I'm the boy and this is the police vehicle. And, obviously, they were close enough that they were touching each other at the point where they were wrestling?

  • At the window, yeah.

  • Okay. So when you said the boy broke away, did he step backwards or did he turn back from the vehicle and walk away or did you see any of that?

  • Urn, all I saw was whatever they were engaged in, obviously, must have been over or somebody was able to get their hand off of each other and the boy walked away.

  • He kind of walked away not real slow, but not real fast.

  • And that's when the policeman got out of the car.

  • Okay. So now at this point, when you say the boy broke away and started walking not real fast, but not slow, which direction was he going?

  • Toward what is the name of those apartments?

  • He just proceeded in the direction he was going before the incident with the policeman.

  • Okay. So at this point you see the officer get out of the patrol car?

  • Or the patrol vehicle. Could you see him at that point enough to tell if it was a man or a woman, white or black?

  • Was it a man?

  • White or black?

  • Could you tell if he's wearing a policeman's uniform?

  • At this point could you see that he had a gun?

  • I don't remember.

  • Seeing him with a gun, I'm not sure.

  • Did the police officer get out of his vehicle immediately after the bigger boy started to walk away or was there any because before he was out of the vehicle?

  • It took him, he had to like open the door and get out.

  • So I'm saying whatever time it took him to get, because if you are sitting in a vehicle you have to step out, get out, and he come out kind of almost at a run. He come out kind of fast.

  • And at the time that the officer came out of the vehicle, did he then move in the direction that you saw the boy moving in?

  • Uh-huh, that same direction.

  • At the time that officer got out of the vehicle and you said started, you said kind of started to go kind of fast, kind of run?

  • Could you still see the big boy?

  • When the officer began running in that direction on Canfield, could you see if he had a gun?

  • I could see his left side and I don't know, I'm not sure if he had anything, but he held his hand like he had something in his hand and I could not see it.

  • You are motioning with your right hand. So did it appear to you that he might of had something?

  • He might have had something, but I did not see it. It can if you get out you have something in your hand, you carry in your hand a little bit differently, so I don't really see it then.

  • Okay. Did the police officer then move quickly or return out of your sight?

  • Out of my sight.

  • And then how long after you lost sight of police officer did you hear some gunshots?

  • A couple seconds.

  • You said it was more than two, could have been four?

  • It could have been. It was kind of shocking to hear it because it was such a minor, thought minor thing that I saw before the gunshots.

  • And so I know I heard pow, pow, pow, and then I just said, you know, how you say it, I don't believe this, can't be a shooting back here.

  • So at this point everything that you see at this point are you still looking out the same window?

  • No, I left the window.

  • From the time you first looked out the window and you saw the officer and the bag boy out of your the window?

  • I moved away from the window.

  • When did you move away from the window?

  • After the policeman went down and when I heard the shot.

  • Okay. But before then had you been at the window the whole time, from the time when you first saw the boys talking to the time you moved away, or did you like step away and get your cell phone and then come back to the window?

  • You were at the window the whole time that you said you were watching this. Do you understand my question?

  • Yeah, I understand your question. What I'm trying to say was, when I saw the boys, I kind of backed away from the window a little. When I kind of just look back, I didn't really go back, I kind of look back and that's when I saw the police car. That's the only time I'm at the window until the cop moved.

  • Okay. And now you said after you heard the shots, you didn't see the shooting, you said you got dressed?

  • Yeah. I just had on some shorts and things in the house, so I couldn't go out like that. I just put on my pants and went out.

  • You went outside?

  • Yes. I'm hearing the shots and then I'm seeing people, you kind of could hear too, you know. I heard the shots and then I said, I saw people, you could hear people by then, people were kind of screaming.

    So I could hear them through the window. So that's when I put my clothes on to go out.

  • Okay. So other than the shots, you couldn't hear anything that was going on between the boys and the officer?

  • You didn't hear anybody yelling or say anything that maybe you couldn't make out?

  • And so when you left your apartment, did you go down to Canfield Drive, did you see the boys?

  • I had just come out of my apartment, still in the apartment lot. I had never left the parking lot where I could see. I wasn't going to get too close to that, so I stayed back.

  • Could you see someone lying in the street?

  • And did it look like the same big boy that you had seen?

  • Could you tell?

  • Yeah, I could tell. It was the same one.

  • Okay. Did you, when you got down there. Already officers at the scene down there or the police hadn't gotten there yet?

  • That's kind of questionable. I saw this one white cop, blond hair, he looked like the same one that was in the confrontation. He was putting out some cones, put some cones down to make sure that traffic gets, you know, doesn't get through there. And then after that I saw another policeman coming.

  • Okay. Was it in a police car?

  • Did he come from the direction of West Florissant or from the northbound direction?

  • Uh, looked like to me the car was, I'm not sure. I didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to that. All I saw was the two of them standing on the side, the one was like here, my apartment was over here and they was on the other side of the street because they were further down. From further down from where I was.

  • Okay. How long did you stay out in that area in the parking lot area that day?

  • About an hour or so.

  • Could you hear people talking, people that gathered, people were coming out of their apartments, right?

  • Coming out of their apartments. There was too many for them. After a while they were coming from other apartments on the other side.

  • Did it appear to you that the people that were beginning to gather, were they becoming angry or agitated?

  • They were more, more like in shock. You just don't see a body laying in the street every day, you know. There were some people there that I think must have been family members that were real upset. I didn't see anybody who was actually violent.

  • Did anyone that was out there ask you if you had seen anything?

  • Did you hear anybody saying anything about don't talk to the police?

  • Was it later that day that a police officer knocked on your door?

  • Where is it that you saw the police officer?

  • No one ever knocked on your door?

  • Anybody leave a card for you?

  • Later on, much later on.

  • And would that have been like the next Saturday?

  • I saw them, but they never put a card on my door.

  • But you talked to the FBI?

  • You didn't talk to the FBI?

  • Who did you talk to?

  • I have a son who is in law enforcement. Found out my daughter called him to let him know. I told him I saw that, but I really didn't want to be involved in it. And we went downtown to see and talk to the FBI. The never came to my house, ma'am. The police nor the County Cops, Ferguson Police never asked me any questions.

  • Okay. So you did talk to the FBI and talk to them about what you saw?

  • Was there any other law enforcement officers that you talked about what you saw?

  • Any other people besides that came and talk to you about what you saw?

  • Do you know any Ferguson police officers?

  • Do you know any members of Michael Brown, you know, Michael Brown was the boy that was killed?

  • Do you know any members of his family?

  • Anybody in his family or representing his family, ever try to come and talk to you?

  • Is there anything else, let me ask you, ma'am. You are wearing glasses today?

  • Do you need those glasses to see?

  • I'm not going to test you.

  • The only thing these are for is for me to read.

  • Yeah, I got the same so. So you can see distance without your glasses?

  • Without my glasses.

  • And what about that day, do you remember if you had your glasses on?

  • You don't remember or you didn't?

  • I didn't have it on.

  • How about your hearing, do you have any problems with your hearing?

  • Is there anything that maybe I haven't asked you so far that you think is important for the grand jurors to know about what you saw that day or what happened after that?

  • Not really, except for the fact that I'm kind of living in fear. I don't know whether to stay where I am because it wasn't a good place to stay. It wasn't the best in the first place, but now it's like you get all kind of elements, people are always there, it is just bad.

  • Have you, do you think that people in that area know that you've seen this, do you talk to your neighbors about it?

  • No, and the reason for that was that's the only reason why I agreed to make a statement was, and that's why we did it the way we did it. He said it was the safest way. He didn't want to put me in harms way was for me to go to the FBI rather than, I told him I wasn't going to talk to Ferguson.

  • And why is that? Did you have any prior experiences with the Ferguson Police Department that would make you feel that way?

  • No, but I seen things.

  • You've seen things that make you leery of talking to Ferguson?

  • And is that, let me ask you this. The thing that you saw, do you know if it had to do with that same police officer?

  • I really did not know the police officer that was involved in the shooting. I have to kind of give you a background on me. I don't have a lot of interaction with policemen.

    I think I've gotten a ticket twice and they were completely out of my area. Anything else, I just don't get involved with them. I do what I'm supposed to do, try to follow what I'm supposed to do. I work, I work most of the time, I'm gone five days a week, most of the time working. And when I'm home, when I'm there in that apartment, I stay in my apartment, I mind my own business.

    I know of maybe one or two of the neighbors that's in the apartments. I speak to them and I keep going.

    But I sit in my apartment, I see the police coming down the streets. I have a problem with them doing 50, 60 miles an hour coming down the complex where you've got children and people walking all the time and it is five, six, seven, eight cops and they're all speeding down the street. Less than five minutes later you see them coming back. You see them, they all pull up into the parking lot and there will be, oh, I don't know in these funny looking suits and playing cards.

    They surround the parking lot to go in, and they go into some apartment, and I don't know which one, and then they come back out. I mean, it is just a lot of things that go on.

    Frankly, I'm really not use to this. This is my first experience with an apartment. I've always lived in a house and never lived in an apartment before.

    And the things that go on, you know, make me kind of leery of the police because they, when they come in, if you come to go get in your car, get back in your apartment, get back in your apartment. When there is really nothing going on.

    If you got a warrant for somebody to go in or something, you know, it is for you to talk to people. The little bit that I did do interaction that I did see with them, the tone, the way they talk to you, the way they approach you.

    I had a couple of them knock on my door because they was looking for somebody. You knock on my door and you want me to give some information, there is certain way you talk to me. I'm not violating anybody.

  • You feel that the police officers --

  • Sometimes I think they're bullies.

  • And disrespectful?

  • Disrespectful, very disrespectful.

  • And so I understand, is that some of the reasons why you didn't feel comfortable talking to Ferguson. Is it Ferguson Police Department that you have that feeling about or is it all police officers?

  • Not all, Ferguson.

  • And, again, just to clarify, did you ever witness the officer involved in the shooting?

  • Ever see him behave in that manner?

  • No, I never saw him. To know him, I never seen him.

  • I don't have any questions. Sheila?

  • (By Ms. Whirley) When you were interviewed by the FBI, that would have been August the 12th, a couple days after this occurred; is that right?

  • A few days, I guess. When you talked with them, I've read your statement, it indicates that you thought, it appeared to you that Michael Brown was trying to get away from the officer when you saw what was going on in the car. Do you still have that opinion?

  • Yeah, they were, I mean, they were just like, you know, I mean, it is like tussling with each other. And he was like, I guess, he was trying to get away and he finally was able to break away and that's when he walked away.

  • Okay. It appeared to you that the police officer was actually holding onto Brown as he was trying to get away?

  • Yeah, he was holding, I mean, they was tussling. They were just tussling. And it was like one was trying to hold the other, you know what I'm saying?

  • I do. And at the time that you were talking to the FBI, you thought it was the officer that was trying to hold onto Brown?

  • And Brown was trying to get away, that's what it appeared to you?

  • When you saw the officer, once Brown did get away, you said he was kind of, the first you said running, but more walking fast?

  • Walking fast.

  • He was a big guy and when he broke loose, he just like went at a fast pace, but not in a total run.

  • I understand. And he was going in the opposite direction of the officer?

  • Right. Same direction he was going when the policeman approached him.

  • Approached him, okay. And then you saw the officer get out of the car and I think in your statement you said it appeared that he was running after Brown and his gun was drawn, does that sound familiar that his gun was drawn?

  • I'm trying to mentally see.

  • Sure, that's what we want you to do.

  • Because it has been a while. I don't really want to deal with it.

  • I understand.

  • When he got out of the car, he jumped out, I could see him when he was getting out of the car, okay. When he got out of the car, wherever his gun was, he must of had to reach for it because when he got out, I could see his hand on this side and then when he got so far, I could see the beginning of the gun, like he had something in his hand.

  • Okay. And it looked like a gun?

  • In his right hand?

  • You are motioning with your right hand.

  • Yeah, with his right hand because it was all on that side. That is why nothing is really totally just say clear because he was on the opposite side of me and I'm looking at him from this side.

  • From this side.

  • From the passenger side?

  • Yeah, because he was on the passenger side of the car.

  • Who is on the passenger side of the car?

  • The cop when he got out, he got out of the passenger side of the car.

  • Okay. He didn't get out of the driver's door?

  • I mean, I'm sorry, the driver's side of the car. I'm saying on the passenger side of the car.

  • So your window is facing the passenger side of the car?

  • Passenger side of the car and he's on the driver's side.

  • Driver's side?

  • That's what I meant to say.

  • Okay. But you could see the tussle from where you were looking?

  • I can see movement.

  • That's why I say it is not clear to me who was doing what.

  • All I can see is the top of Michael Brown's head and then I can see figures or --

  • Can you see their hands?

  • You can, yeah, because I can see them tussling through the car, it is like movement.

  • Okay. Can you see

  • You can see Michael's arms and things up here and you can see him moving.

  • Did you ever see Michael Brown's hands go for the officer's weapon?

  • All the way inside the car?

  • No, I didn't see that. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I did not see that.

  • Okay. And the other guy that was with him who has identified as Dorian Johnson, where did you see him once Michael Brown walked fast away from the car?

  • I didn't see him.

  • You didn't see him any more?

  • Huh-uh. He had already went past my view.

  • Before Michael Brown left?

  • Before he broke loose.

  • Before he broke loose, okay. Did you hear any shots while the tussling was going on?

  • So at what point did you hear, I think you heard two shots; is that right?

  • I say I counted two and then after that I just didn't count any more.

  • Okay. At what point did you count two shots, what was going on when you counted hearing two shots?

  • I started hearing two shots, the policeman had already gotten out of my view and next thing I heard was shot.

  • Okay. So Michael Brown was walking fast away from the officer?

  • The officer get out with his gun drawn and was following him, is that when you heard two shots?

  • Right, I heard the shots after that.

  • Okay. And then after that did you hear some additional shots? Like was there a pause between the first shot you heard and then more shots were fired?

  • I'm trying to think if it was a pause. It was a very little pause between the shots that I heard.

  • Okay. You heard a certain amount of shots, a very little pause and then some more shots?

  • And then I think I read that you heard someone yelling after you heard the last shots?

  • Yeah, there was somebody yelling, but I don't know who it was.

  • Okay. I think you just said you couldn't make out

  • I heard some yelling and then I guess that's when whoever heard the shots that was closer to him must have started to come out of their apartments.

  • But you didn't see any of that?

  • I didn't see anything, but I could hear. By then you could hear some sounds from people hollering because then it was over with.

  • So you hear the aftereffect of people realizing something has happened they are coming out screaming and hollering, and there was a lot of screaming and hollering.

  • How did you know that it was over with, like what happened to let you know it was over with?

  • You didn't hear any more shots.

  • Okay. So when you heard those last shots, then you heard someone yelling?

  • And no more shots?

  • No more shots.

  • No more shots, okay. When you got dressed and went back out or went out, where did you go when you went out. Did you go like on your porch, did you go down to the street, where did you go?

  • I come down into the parking lot.

  • Can you show us here on the map if it is visible or if you can figure out where you were?

  • There's a parking lot, see this parking lot here?

  • Use the laser pen.

  • This really confuses me.

  • And if you can't do it, it's okay.

  • When you come out of my apartment, there's a parking lot and a parking lot there and there's a parking on the side, which is like they got there looks like that's the parking on the side, but there is also parking in between.

  • I just come down and walked out of my apartment and walked over toward.

  • Canfield Drive, this is Canfield Drive.

  • But I didn't leave the parking lot, I stayed back on the parking lot because they were already, by the time I got down they were putting out cones.

  • So I just stayed back. I was able to see even with me standing back, you can see the boy in the street. All I had to do was walk so far and then I could see down the street.

  • Okay. So they were putting cones out by the time you came?

  • So you saw other police officers and police cars by the time you came downstairs?

  • Well, when I first came downstairs I only saw one policeman and then another one showed up and then another one showed up.

  • Shortly thereafter?

  • But at the time of the altercation, the shooting occurred, you only saw one officer?

  • I saw only one police car.

  • One police car. Were the people, you said they started coming out, when you came out when they were putting out cones, is that when you saw a lot more people coming out?

  • People started coming out. Boy's laying here, on the side I am, you could see them flowing from back here. And then they started from that side, and then all of the sudden they were coming out, because see, there is apartments back there. So they were coming out, they were coming around into where, where my apartment is into that parking lot.

    And then there wasn't, I'm trying to think how long after all this happened that I saw his mother come out. She was easy to recognize, she had the blond hair.

  • Did you know his mother?

  • Never met her before?

  • I heard, the people were saying she kept hollering, my baby, my baby, you know she was the mother.

  • And they were trying to hold her. There was just a lot of people, a lot of people and a lot of screaming.

  • Can you show us on the map where you saw his body fall? You didn't see it fall, but where it was when you came out? If you can. Can you tell on this map where his body rested, Michael Brown's body?

  • It is kind of hard for me to say because.

  • Can you hit that little button. If you cannot

  • Canfield Drive, why is Canfield Drive up there. Copperfield, should be, I thought that was

  • Coppercreek?

  • I thought that was on the other side of where I am, but anyway, he was --like my apartment is right there, I'm right here, he was down from me somewhere in here. (indicating)

  • Okay, all right.

  • Cause see right here, right here on this end is the dividing line where my view gets, but not there, but you know what I'm saying?

  • As you come out of my apartment you come there, right there, I can't see after that.

  • That's the end of, like the apartment ends there and then I can't see any more from there. I have to come out of my apartment and come to the end of the parking lot and look down the street.

  • One thing you mentioned that it was such a minor incident to end up, I think, in somebody being dead?

  • Right, it was.

  • Tell me what you mean by that?

  • Here is two guys walking down the street. They're in the street. The policeman pulls up and says something to them. They say something back, they start to walk away. Then the police backs up and then there is a confrontation between him and one of the guys. Then the next thing you hear is shots.

    I mean, it was such a small incident if they were in the streets, he didn't want them in the streets and he told them get on the sidewalk. That should have been it.

  • And if they didn't obey and get on the sidewalk, then what are your thoughts?

  • What are my thoughts?

  • I don't think he should have died from it, he could have arrested him.

  • Jaywalking, and that's basically what it was if that's what it was. It just seemed to me it was just such a, I mean, that's just my point of view that it was such a minor incident, the boys didn't have a gun, there was no big deal on just jaywalking and just to me it seems a waste of life to me, that's just me.

  • I just want to clarify some things.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Ma'am, I totally understand and agree that as we sit here now some several weeks later and we have learned a lot about what happened that day, it does seem like a waste, it seems terrible that this happened. A couple of questions I have for you though is that when you were looking out your window, you said you could see the hands going back and forth?

  • Do you remember telling the FBI agents that you could see Michael Brown's hands in the police vehicle?

  • In the window of the vehicle.

  • Right. Inside the vehicle, past the window. If the window were up, the hands were inside, correct?

  • Yeah, if they're wrestling, there's confrontation, I'm in your window, my hands are in your window.

  • Okay. From your vantage point, because when Sheila asked you if you could see Michael Brown going for or trying to grab the officer's gun and you said no.

  • I didn't see that.

  • So what I want to clarify is, are you saying that didn't happen because you could see what was happening, or are you saying, you know, I can't tell what was going on in the car so I didn't see it go on, but I don't know what happened?

  • That's what I'm trying to tell you. All I could see was their hands going back and forth.

  • I never saw anybody reaching for a gun or reaching into the car to try to get his gun. In that case from what I could see, if he had to, if he reached into the car, he would of had to have been in some kind of way, no way he could have stood up straight and reach in the car without me seeing it.

  • And all I ever saw was the top of his head and them wrestling through the thing. I never saw him bend to reach in the car, I never saw the policeman reaching in his gun holster to get his gun, all I saw was them wrestling at the thing.

  • Now, but that don't mean that I didn't, there's something I could have missed something, but I did not see anything beyond that.

  • Okay. When you first saw the boys, and you just said today you really don't recall what they were wearing in particular. You could see their hands when they were walking, right?

  • Did you see anything in their hands?

  • I don't remember seeing anything in their hands, no. I don't recall seeing anything in their hands.

  • And now, I mean, we know today, we know, and nobody is disputing that Michael Brown, we know he did not have a weapon, okay. I'm not trying to imply that he did when I ask you these questions, but when you saw him, you couldn't tell if he could of had a weapon in a pocket, in a waistband, from your vantage point you wouldn't be able to tell that, would you?

  • And once he ran out of your sight, and if you're here and this building right here, this one right here, once they run past a certain point, you can't see beyond that building to what happens, right?

  • And so whatever happened after they ran out of your sight, you can't say one way or another what happened; is that right, is that fair to say?

  • Fair to say.

  • Okay. So at the time, and today I know we know a lot more today than, obviously, people knew as it was going on. But at you sit here today, I know you said it just seemed like such a minor incident, the officer should have arrested him for jaywalking?

  • No, no, that's what I'm saying. I was just saying in the real world or in a good scenario what I saw just seemed like such a minor thing for it to end up the way it did.

  • That's all I'm saying.

  • Just seemed such a waste. I'm not saying what happened when it got past me because I can't testify to that, I don't know anything about that.

  • And exactly what was happening inside that car, you really couldn't tell?

  • No, and when I made the statement to the FBI I told them that. I could not see inside the car.

  • All I could see was them wrestling at the window.

  • And from your vantage point, you did not see him, Michael Brown, I mean the big guy, it didn't look to you like he was reaching far enough in the car to where he would be reaching for a weapon?

  • No, but then if I'm looking at you, there might be some things that I don't see.

  • Some things that my memory don't record. I'm not going to say what did or did not happen. I can only tell you what I saw.

  • If, I'm not saying this is true or not, I'm just asking you to think about this. If the officer had drawn his weapon and he was holding his weapon closer to his, the door. In other words, if he has a right handed holster, and then if he had removed a weapon and had it closer to the door, would Michael Brown have been able to, given what you were judging from his height and from what you saw where his head was and everything, could he have touched or reached the weapon if that were the case?

  • Well, I guess if the policeman had the gun up in his, up high enough where he didn't have to bend to get it or to move his body to get it, I'm assuming that could have happened, that could happen. I don't know that.

  • And I think that, I don't want to imply that you are saying it did or did not happen because I think it is clear that you don't know.

  • No, I don't.

  • And that's fair, but when you said you didn't see him, it couldn't have been like he was reaching for his gun, are you basing that assumption on if the officer still had the weapon in his holster on his right hip, you never saw Michael Brown go far enough in the vehicle to actually remove, try to get the gun off of his right hip, would that be fair to say?

  • Yeah, that would be fair to say. I can say that, that I didn't see that.

  • Okay. But if the gun were already out of the holster and maybe being held across the officer's body, is it possible then from where Michael Brown was, that he could reach the gun without having to lean in the way you would of thought he would have to lean?

  • Could be. If I was in the same position and you could see me and he put it up high enough for me to do it within arms reach, I guess I could do it to.

  • And, again, I'm not saying one way or another, I'm just asking you because I think you made certain assumptions when you were saying he couldn't reach the gun and that's based upon you believing that the officer's gun was still in his holster that he couldn't reach it?

  • I know you all have a lot of questions.

  • Just one thing. My question wasn't could he reach the gun, was it did you see Michael Brown struggling with the officer over the gun?

  • That's my question.

  • I understand, Sheila.

  • I was making it clear.

  • I didn't know if she meant that didn't happen because I saw, I could see it and it didn't happen, or if her answer was I didn't see that.

  • Well, see what I was saying when I say that I didn't see him reaching in the car, I did not see that. All I saw was them tussling at the window, I never saw him reach in, or anything like that.

    Now, that's not saying that what you said about the gun as far as the policeman was concerned that it was in a different position, but when the question was asked of me was, did he reach in to try to take the cop's gun. And I said, no, I did not see that.

  • Okay. I think that's, and these are all just points we are trying to clarify.

  • I'm absolutely not trying to imply one thing or the other. So questions?

    Did you ever at any time see him stick his head inside the police car?

  • When you, the first time you saw the two guys walking and the police approaching them and you say you saw the police drive away and proceeded on or the young man proceeded on. When the police came back, could you tell if he came back in a speedy way or did he just back up normally?

  • What happened was, he said something to the boys. The boys said something to him. The boys proceeded to walk away. The policeman must have thought for a second, he backed up to go back to where they were. That's what happened. I mean, he didn't speed up any because they only had gotten a few feet from him when he decided, when I guess he wanted to have some more to say to them, he just backed up.

  • Okay, thank you.

  • When you saw Michael Brown's head on the top of the SUV, do you know if he was wearing anything on his head?

  • I think he had a hat on, a cap or whatever, you know.

  • Ma'am, I'm just asking you if you recall when you talked to the FBI agents, and these were two women agents, right?

  • Do you remember telling them that you saw, and I'm talking about when the vehicle backed up, that you saw the vehicle jerk and back up a short distance?

  • Yeah, he did. Cause when he backed up he jerked, like he put his foot on the brake or something.

  • I was trying to clarify when you were asking about and I wanted to know what you meant about that.

  • If the policeman probably wanted to say something, he didn't want them to get away. So what he did when he put it, just when he backed it up, he just put on his brakes real hard, real fast and the car kind of jerked.

  • From your position, did it look like he came close to hitting the boys or did his vehicle contact either boy when he backed up?

  • I didn't see that.

  • Okay.

    You said you don't know if you want to continue to live there any more. Do you feel it is because of the police or because of the residents and the danger or everything?

  • I'm going to move anyway.

  • I've got a lease and I can't move right now. I mean, my family's having major problems.

  • There's a lot of things that make me want to move. Too many young people, too much riffraff, there is shooting, they get out at night, on weekends and shoot up in the air and all that stuff.

    The police has been called several times for it. The apartment managers or owners, or whoever they are, does nothing about it and all of that is violations. They should have been gone, but they do it.

    I'm getting too old to be putting up with the riffraff. They are a bunch of youngsters. Youngsters are in a learning phase, they do all kinds of crazy stuff. And I just want to live somewhere where I don't have to live with all of that, okay.

    Has nothing to do with the cop shooting the kid or the kid causing the shooting, whatever it was, had nothing to do with that. But the aftermath of this is what I'm talking about.

    I don't want to live years, all of the sudden somebody come and either take my life or shoot me up or beat me up, and I'm abiding by all the rules or as many of them as I can. I'm not going to say I'm perfect. We all do things that we shouldn't do, all right.

  • Any other questions? Okay. This will conclude the testimony of this witness.

    (End of the testimony of

  • This is Kathi Alizadeh on October 23rd, 11:07 a.m. Present in the grand jury is Sheila Whirley and all 12 grand jurors and the court reporter.

    The next thing we're going to do is play a statement for you. The statement is from a witness named I believe it's,

    , I'll verify that. She had previously talked to the County Police, but this is a statement you're going to hear is a statement that was done yesterday, I believe, at FBI headquarters. I can't be sure, but the statement is being taken by, the questioning is being done by , who is the attorney for the Department of Justice. You have heard her voice on several statements. You will also hear the voice of

    , who is the assistant United States attorney who you probably heard his voice on several statements.

    And there is also an FBI agent who is a female who is a female who pipes in a couple of times during the statement. I'm not sure as I sit here today because I listened to this last night because I got it last night because it happened yesterday afternoon.

    I can't recall if they identified who the FBI officer, but this was a statement done yesterday.

    The statement lasts an hour, and hour 40 minutes, 38 minutes. So it might be that we break after hearing the first hour of it. Since it is a little after a 11 now, and then you guys can have your lunch, then we would resume and let you listen to the last part of it and then have the witness testify in the afternoon, all right.

    With that being said, , because we don't have a transcript, I would like you to transcribe the interview. But we can pause the recording since we've marked this disc that contains the interview as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 50 marked for identification.) I don't know street names, but I can give you detail directions that I went.

    MS. Oh, that's fine, I'm just going to go ahead and just kind of do a little introduction, okay.

    It is October 22nd, 2014. It is approximately 2:14 p.m. This is special agent

    at the FBI field office, 2222 Market Street, St. Louis, Missouri. I am here with USA

    , DOJ prosecuting attorney and we are interviewing?

    MS. And, , can you spell, is it, your name for me?

    It's capital MS. Do you have a middle name? MS. What's your date of birth? MS. And your social security number?

    MS. What is the best contact number for you?

    That's area code MS. Is that your cell phone?

    Yes, I'm straight cell. MS. What's that?

    I'm straight cell. MS. Oh.

    No landline. MS. What's your address. MS. Okay. All right. MS. So before we begin, you introduced as , is that okay if I call you that?

    Yes. MS. Okay. I want to let you know we talked a little bit when you came in. We're just trying to figure out what the truth is and so we don't want to talk about what you may have heard from other people or what you have seen on TV or read or anything like that, just what you know, okay. This investigation, like any other, where we are just trying to get at the truth.

    We have to let you know that, we tell this to everybody, if you lie to a federal agent, and you, (inaudible) it is a crime. You are better off not saying a word and just not talking to us if you plan on lying and sitting in here and telling us lies.

    With that in mind, we just ask you, we are going to ask you to tell us what you remember. If you don't know something, or don't remember, that's perfectly fine. Just, you know, as I said, our goal is to figure out what happened, okay?

    Right. MS. We don't want you to think if one way or the other (inaudible) of what you have to say, you are just a piece of the puzzle, okay?

    Okay. MS. Can you just tell us, we know what you originally said in your first statement, but we as prosecutors wanted to get to meet you. So can you just rundown what you saw and experienced on August 9th?

    Urn, okay. You want me to start from where I started at QT?

    MS. Well, yes, I know you stopped at the QT, but you were on your way somewhere to begin with?

    I was on my way to visit a friend from high school that I thought lived off Florissant, but turned out lived in Florissant.

    MS. Okay.

    I ended up in Florissant -- or on Florissant Road.

    MS. Okay.

    Once I realized that I was lost, this is before I had my GPS. I stopped at the QT. 270 is up here and I stopped at the QT and I asked for directions. And I didn't follow them very well, instead of making a right out of QT, I made a left. And I realized I went the wrong way, so I made another immediate left.

    But then I seen the apartments, my friend lived in an apartment. I thought, well, maybe I was in the right spot after all.

    And I went down that street and I passed two streets and then a parking lot and went into the second parking lot, which is technically the same one because it loops around a building. And I pulled in there and I made a left and I parked there and then I walked back out in front of that building to ask for directions.

    MS. Okay.

    And then that's when I seen the officer's SUV for the first time, it is a bigger vehicle, for the first time. And he was talking to two African-American gentlemen.

    And then he started to leave and then he put the car in reverse and said something, and I did not hear what was said. And then the next thing I know, the heavier set African-American was in the car from approximately the waist up. And then I heard the gun go off, I didn't hear any kind of conversation. I heard noises, but not what was being said.

    I heard the gun go off, I only remember one gunshot. The skinnier African-American took off running and the heavier set one that they call Mike Brown stood up, and I seen him pull his shorts up and take off running.

    The officer got out of the car and had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun in his right hand. And his right hand was shaking and he was stumbling from one foot to the other, and I don't know what he said. All I heard was, or I'll shoot.

    And then that's when Michael Brown, the heavier set, turned around and face-to-face with the officer and he had his hands out extended like this, or whatever, kind of like, you know, what are you going to do.

    MS. Okay.

    He wasn't saying anything at that time that I heard. And then the officer had his gun, was drawn and pointed at him, and that's when Brown started to charge, you know, kind of like a football, like this, with his hands out.

    MS. And your hands are clenched.

    Right, his hands were clenched at this time. He was slightly bent, but not much. It was kind of like a football charge not, you know, and then that's when the gunshots started.

    I don't remember the sequence or the order. I know that the gun went off a couple of times and then stopped and then went off again.

    And then when the last gunshot went off, which was in the head, that's when I started to get freaked out and I got in my car and I left. As I was leaving, I couldn't go out the same parking lot I had come in, they had, that was all blocked. So I zigzagged through the parking lot and I popped out the third one over here, and I made a right and went through the neighborhood.

    I got lost in there for about 20 minutes, but I ended up on a street that goes in a complete circle and then I made a right and popped out on a side road next to QT, which is where I asked the person at QT again where the nearest highway was.

    MS. So let me go back and ask you some questions I have.

    Okay. MS. Starting with the QT. When you went and asked for directions, did you go inside or did you ask somebody in the parking lot?

    I asked somebody at the gas pump.

    MS. Both times or first time?

    Both times. MS. And did you go inside at all.

    No. If we got surveillance video from the gas pump, you would be on it?

    Yes. MS. Okay. And so when you drove, you said you ended up by an apartment complex. You thought it was your friend's apartment complex, what made you think that?

    Because she had said she lived in apartments right off Florissant. And I thought she meant right off Florissant, she meant in Florissant. I never did find my friend.

    MS. Okay. Before you were describing it you said that you thought that you noticed these apartment complexes and you went in thinking that was where she lived and then you got out and asked for directions again. At what point did you still think you were at the apartment complex?

    No, once I got in there because once I got past the first two streets and I started to go around the bend, it didn't look like the pictures that I had from her, and that's why I was confused.

    MS. What is your friend's name. MS. Do you have a phone number for her?

    I do, it is at home. She's, we met when

    MS. So you said in high school, right?

    We met my freshman year of high school.

    MS. Okay. MR. She was one of the

    ? Correct. MS. What school did you go to? It was early '80s I guess.

    MR. you went to?

    Yes. MR. is her name?

    Yes. MR. How do you spell her last name?

    MS. And how do you spell with an I or a Y?

    MS. Have you spoken to her since this?

    Just a couple times. We were really, really close when

    And then they had that situation

    , what do you call, , and we let her so she wouldn't have to deal with it. We went through a lot together, so.

    MS. You said you never made it to her house that day, did you call her afterwards?

    I emailed her and told her. MS. What did you tell her?

    Just that I had gotten lost. I didn't tell anybody anything except for my ex-husband, which he

    MS. Who is

    He's being obnoxious. MS. What do you mean?

    Well, he told me not to come in here at all.

    MS. Why?

    Just because we have three MS. Meaning what?

    He doesn't, he has cable, I don't. He hears about the death threats and everything and just says that he doesn't want his mixed up in it. MS. So why did you decide to go against his suggestion?

    Because the one thing my father taught me before he passed away regardless, you always tell the truth and you always admit to whatever, if it's the truth.

    Unfortunately, I have been in trouble once before by the law.

    MS. Okay. How did you get in trouble, what was that?

    I grabbed a black checkbook instead of a brown checkbook or blue checkbook.

    MS. Did you get convicted of anything?

    Yes, because my dad, even though it was an accident, it is still my signature and the adult thing to do would be to accept responsibility, so I pled guilty.

    MS. What did you plead guilty to, what was the charge?

    You know, I really am not 100 percent sure. I think it was check fraud is what it would have gone down.

    MS. How long ago was that?

    In '07, I believe. MS. Did you --

    I didn't do any time. I explained the situation to the judge and the judge said since I was taking responsibility, he would give me just probation.

    MS. How long were you on probation for?

    Three years. MS. Was it a felony.

    It was considered two felonies, but they did an SIS.

    MS. Okay.

    So that as long as I didn't get in trouble throughout the three years that it wouldn't be on my record.

    MS. Okay. MR. Did you have any trouble during that three years?

    No. MR. Have you had any other kind type of problems at all like that?

    I haven't even got so much as a ticket so, before or after.

    MS. So when you pulled into the parking lot in this complex, you got out of your car to ask for directions, was there somebody that you were going over to ask directions or were you just looking for somebody?

    I walked up to the first gentleman I seen, he was kind of a heavy set guy with a green shirt, and had his hair in braids and it was real short.

    MS. Okay. Why did you park your car and walk up to him as opposed to just drive up to him?

    It's just what I do. MS. Okay.

    It is easier for me just to park, get out, and then I can sit and conversate and I was able to have a cigarette.

    MS. I guess, you know, if it is all good but

    I've always done it. MS. And that's fine. I'm talking about the reality of life is you are in a neighborhood that you don't know and you are getting out of your car and walking up to somebody you don't know, and I don't know, you are more trustful than the average person, or maybe I'm more skeptical than the average person, especially a woman in a neighborhood that you don't know.

    I just always have. I don't know, I could be down in the city or whatever and ask for directions, and I will get out.

    MS. Okay. So you get out

    I don't get lost any more, my mom bought me a GPS.

    MS. Okay. You get out of the car and you see this guy, and at what point did you notice the police car?

    I didn't notice him until they were talking the first time. And no, I didn't hear anything that was said the first time around. He was just kind of driving up next to him.

    MS. Did you get the opportunity to ask this guy for directions or was your attention diverted to the police car?

    I started to ask him, and then I lit a cigarette, and then my attention became drawn to the police car. That's why I had to ask directions again at QT.

    MS. Was the guy you are talking to, was he watching was going on also?

    Yes. MS. So you look over and you see the police car and you say that, when I say car, I mean SUV, and you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and who?

    The, well, I know it is Mike Brown now, at the time it was a heavy set African-American and a skinny African-American.

    MS. And did you --

    Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, when, urn, he backed up, when he first tried to get out, the heavier set one did push the door shut, but so did the skinnier one. And the skinnier one lost a bracelet on the ground, it is a gold bracelet.

    MS. Okay.

    I'm sorry. MS. You're fine, totally fine, okay I know in your last statement you said one of the things you kept saying was I'm not a very good witness.

    I'm not. MS. Let me tell you this as a prosecutor. A good witness is somebody who is truthful. And that's all it takes to be a good witness, right, nobody should be a professional witness, right. Because we just ask about what we see going on in our daily lives.

    I kind of want to get that out of your head, just focus on the fact that all we want is the truth, right, so and that's ultimately what we are getting at. However, you characterize yourself good or bad, that doesn't matter either as long as you tell the truth, okay.

    Okay. MS. Back up to when you saw the SUV and you said you saw interaction and you can call him Mike Brown, you know their names now?

    I know their names now. MS. So then you can call them Mike or Dorian, whatever you feel comfortable.

    Okay. MS. You see the SUV and you see the interaction, who was interacting with whom?

    They both were interacting the second time.

    MS. So the initial thing that you see.

    The initial time I only seen the officer say something to Mike Brown.

    MS. Okay. How do you know the officer was talking to Mike Brown.

    He was closer and Mike was responding. And it was definitely conversation, I just have no idea what was said.

    MS. Okay. Was Mike Brown going in the same direction or opposite direction of the SUV.

    When I looked over there they were side by side.

    MS. Okay. Where was Dorian Johnson relative to the SUV?

    The first time? MS. Right, in this initial, when you initially see him.

    He was off about 3 feet. MS. Was he closer to the back of the SUV or the front of the SUV compared to Mike?

    Compared to Mike, I would say the back, but I don't really remember.

    MS. Okay.

    I don't, I honestly, I mean, I didn't give it a whole lot of thought until after Mike Brown went into the car.

    MS. We understand that. Our job is to push you and see how much detail we can get out of you.

    Right. MS. If you don't know, you don't know, that's why we are asking all of these questions.

    MR. When did you first see Mike and Dorian?

    From the first time that they were communicating.

    MR. Okay.

    I paid absolutely no attention, there was a ton of people there.

    MR. You didn't see them until they were actually, until the police car was actually beside them and they were communicating with the policeman?

    Correct. I'll stick with that because I might have seen them, I just didn't, it's not dawned, I can't say for sure or anything, you know, I didn't give them any of my attention.

    MS. How long were you there before you saw that?

    It was like instantly. MS. So you didn't notice when you were driving in, you didn't notice anything?

    No. I didn't pay, I mean, I was staring so much at the building addresses and where there were the most people that I could get out and ask for directions.

    MS. So if you saw anybody close to the road, you would have stopped and get out of the car.

    I would have stopped and get out of the car so I could have a cigarette, and actually get step by step instructions. I'm not good on directions. So I couldn't get ahold of anybody, I didn't have of my cell phone on me at the time so.

    MS. Okay. So you see, you are at the part where you see some sort of interaction between the police officer and Michael Brown, because your statement is based upon what you, yourself, saw. You could tell there was some sort of interaction, correct?

    Correct. I didn't realize that the officer was even an officer. When I first pulled in, or whatever, he was coming this way, I guess, and I never even acknowledged that he was an officer when I pulled in.

    MS. What sort of vehicle was he in?

    Looks like one of those like van or SUV type.

    MS. Okay.

    Big vehicles. MS. Was it marked?

    Yes, it had police and then underneath it said Ferguson.

    MS. So then what about when you say you didn't realize he was an officer?

    I wasn't paying any attention. I was so focused on staring at the building numbers that when I pulled in, or whatever, and I passed and there was a lot of people standing right here, I just pulled in right away. It wasn't until I got out and walked this way, or whatever, that I realized that, you know, that it was even an officer. I was going to wait and just get directions from the guy because the officer was already busy.

    MS. Okay. My next question was, did you consider getting directions from the officer.

    I didn't, no, because he was already occupied.

    MS. Okay.

    And he looked very occupied. MS. All right. So after you see this interaction between Michael Brown and the officer, then what's the next thing you see?

    After the first altercation? MS. We are just talking about step by step.

    Okay. MS. You're getting out of your car, you see him before you spoke to the man about directions; is that right?

    Correct. MS. And then what?

    And then the officer goes up, you know, like he's going to drive away, he doesn't really go too far, just a few rolls of the tire, or whatever. And then he comes back, or whatever, you know, comes and backs up. And Dorian and Michael Brown, Brown walked up to the car and words were exchanged and then Brown entered into the vehicle from the waist up.

    MS. Let me ask you when you say words were exchanged, what do you mean by that?

    The officer's mouth was moving. I have no idea what was said.

    MS. I'm just asking why you chose that phrase.

    Right. MS. You use that phrase exchange, the officer's mouth was moving, was there any--

    I did not hear Mike Brown. MS. Were you able to see Mike Brown's face at that point?

    No, he was facing, because I was here on the sidewalk and the officer's car was kind of cockeyed or crooked, or whatever, and Brown was right at the window.

    MS. Your vantage point was of the driver's side?

    Correct. MS. Based on what you are describing now. Okay. And so you see words were exchanged and then what happened?

    The officer had words. MS. Okay.

    I seen him talking, but I don't know what he had said. And then the next thing I know, Mike Brown was lunging into the car, like dived in and it was only from the waist up that he was in the car.

    MS. What was your reaction when you saw this?

    My honest reaction? MS. Yeah, absolutely.

    I was cussing. At the time I was just like, I actually even said to the guy, is he F-ing crazy.

    MS. You can use the language, we have heard worse, we've said worse.

    I said, is he fucking crazy. MS. Okay.

    And then it just starts happening, I didn't say anything more than that. After the gun went off, I did say damn and then I said shit, and then I got really nervous.

    MS. I don't need a litany of curse words you used. I just kind of want to understand your reaction to what is going on. So you see, you said lunge in and from how far down his body?

    To about his belt, naval. MS. Okay. And that's when, and your reaction was one of, I guess, surprise, right?

    I had never seen anybody treat an officer like that way before.

    MS. What was Dorian doing at the time?

    At that time he punched the car door shut because he punched it with his wrist and he punched it with his wrist, something gold fell off his hand out of his right wrist I think.

    MS. Let me ask you this. At what point did the door open to get punched shut by Dorian?

    When did it open? MS. Yeah.

    After I heard the gunshot. MS. Okay. So when you're saying, maybe I'm getting confused. When you are talking about Dorian punching the door shut, that's after the gunshot?

    Before the gunshot. MS. Okay.

    Once the gunshot went off, Dorian took off.

    MS. Okay. Let's back up a little bit.

    I'm sorry. MS. No, no, no, don't apologize. When you see the officer saying some sort of words to Michael Brown, Michael Brown is by the door, was the door open or closed?

    At that time the door was shut.

    MS. Okay.

    He attempted to open it, because it did open, it did unlatch.

    MS. He, meaning who?

    The officer unlatched the door.

    MS. How do you know it unlatched?

    It started to open, you could tell that it was definitely in the process of opening.

    MS. Okay. And then how did it close?

    With Michael Brown's hands. MS. You are showing

    The base of his hands, he shoved it shut the first time, and then the second time he, I can't, I don't know. I don't know if it was his fist or with his gut.

    MS. You are saying the officer tried to open the door twice in a row?

    Correct. MS. When did Dorian get involved with that?

    That was right after the second time he went up and punched the rear view mirror.

    MS. Punched, meaning what?

    With his wrist, with his right wrist.

    MS. So you are showing the side of his hand?

    The side of his wrist. MS. The side of his wrist?

    In a fist motion. MS. Okay. And then what did you say about something gold?

    Something gold fell off Dorian Johnson's wrist, the skinnier one.

    MS. Okay.

    And it fell on the ground. MS. And after that happened, is that when

    That's when the gun went off.

    MS. When did Brown lunge into the car.

    Okay. I'm sorry, you are making me nervous.

    MS. I don't want to make you nervous.

    After the second time Brown shoved the door shut, the second time, I don't know if it was with his fist or with his, you know, with his gut. And Dorian Johnson was standing there at that time, he looked like he punched the rear view mirror, but he ended up knocking something off his right wrist and it fell on the ground.

    He went to bend down to pick it up and that's when Mike Brown jumped into the car head first, but only went up to his naval into the window.

    MS. Were you able to see what the officer was doing when Mike Brown did that, when he went through the window?

    He was getting punched. MS. How can you tell?

    Because Mike Brown's fist kept going up and down. You knew he was getting hit, even though he was all the way back.

    MS. When you say he was getting hit all way back, you talking about who?

    The officer was being shoved back.

    MS. Okay.

    As Brown was laying on top of him from the waist up and Brown's fist was going up and down on the side.

    MS. How were you able to see this if when I asked you before you said Brown's body, a lot of it was blocking the doorway of the car?

    He was in the car from here up, bent over and the officer was laid back in the car and Dorian was almost completely on top of him.

    MS. Dorian was?

    No, the heavier set one. I'm going to stick with that if that's all right.

    MS. Whatever makes you feel --

    I really don't know which one is which.

    MS. I want you to describe this to me in the way that is most comfortable for you. Okay. I don't want you to think we are trying to get any certain way out of you.

    I need to go with the heavier set and the skinnier one.

    MS. Okay. I don't want you to be nervous at all. If at any time you don't want to talk to us, we are not forcing you to.

    Right. MS. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable or we're making you nervous, we just want to know what happened, okay?

    Right. MS. And you tell us in the easiest way that you can, all right.

    All right. MS. If you want to use bigger one and little one, that's fine.

    Okay. MS. The bigger one you said was in the window and the officer you said was leaning back?

    Right. And there's about this much of a gap between Brown, the heavier set one's body and the thing of the car, the window.

    MS. So there is a gap --

    There is just enough of a gap that you could see the heavier set one's fist going up and down into the officer's face.

    MS. Okay.

    Or into the officer's body, put it that way because I didn't know where the officer was getting hit until after the officer got out.

    MS. All right. And so while this is going on, what's your reaction?

    At this time I was really scared, but I was just kind of standing there, it almost seemed fake at some point or whatever, and now and then just disbelief.

    MS. Was the guy next to you, was he saying anything to you?

    At that time, no. MS. Were you standing next to him?

    I was standing exactly next to him.

    MS. Do you know his name?

    No. MS. Did you ask him his name?

    I didn't really care about names at that point.

    MS. Okay. Did you know anything else about him other than?

    Green T-shirt, heavy set, and braids.

    MS. Okay. Do you know, do you happen to know the address near where you were standing, did you look at the numbers?

    No, but when you pull into, down there and as soon as you go around the bend and you start to see the buildings, it is the very first building on the right.

    MS. Okay. All right. So let's go back. You see the bigger one, these punching motions and then what's the next thing that happened?

    That's when I heard the gun go off.

    MS. Okay.

    And Dorian Johnson, the skinnier one, took off towards the street that QT is on.

    MS. Okay.

    Heavier set one took off in the opposite direction down towards into the complex.

    MS. Okay.

    And then the officer opened the door, and he had his left hand on the left side of his face and the gun was in his right hand, and he was wobbling from foot to foot and he looked confused, you know. He was kind of stumbling, or whatever, like he wasn't with it, does that make sense?

    MS. You're fine.

    He obviously had just got hit.

    MS. You said obviously got hit based on what?

    The way he was acting, it just looked like he was dizzy.

    MS. Okay. When you say his left hand, was it above his ears on his face?

    Get out of the car, right hand was on the gun, so yeah.

    MS. Where was his hand, on his face?

    Now, you got me confused. I want to say the left side of his face, but now you got me confused.

    MS. I don't want to confuse you.

    It was like right up here.

    (indicating)

    MS. You showing his entire palm.

    Yeah, he just had it up to his head.

    MS. Up to his head?

    Yeah. MS. Was his palm from his mouth all the way up.

    Correct. MS. From what I can flap his head from what you remember.

    From what I remember. MS. Okay. And then what happened?

    And then he wobbled from foot to foot, I don't know what he said. I remember hearing or I'll shoot, but that's all I remember hearing. And then that's when the heavier set one turned around and faced him. And they were still that distance away.

    MS. Had the officer, when the heavy set one turned around, had the officer run or pulled forward in his car or was he still by his war.

    He was still by his car. He didn't go towards, Dorian, I didn't see him head that way towards the heavier set one until after the heaver set one turned around and proceeded, you know, started to come this way.

    MS. Okay. So describe when the heavier set one turned around, describe what he was doing?

    He turned around and he put his hands out like this. (indicating)

    MS. That's, now, your hands are here, your hands are kind of out at your sides.

    It was like a football thing.

    MS. Okay.

    They weren't like this.

    (indicating)

    MS. Your hands are clenched?

    Right. MS. Out, but not up, is that fair to say?

    Correct. MS. They are out, but a little bit higher than waist high?

    Correct. MS. And did he put his hands out like that before or after he turned around?

    After he turned around. MS. What were his hands doing? That's the easier way around it.

    He looked like he was having an attitude, he looked like my

    MS. How so?

    What are you going to do. MS. That expression or that motion he as he turn around.

    Correct. MS. What was your vantage point, was your vantage point on him when he turned around, was he facing you?

    At this time, yeah, when he turned around, he was facing the officer, which would have been facing this way. I was more in the middle of the building and he was more at the entrance of the parking lot.

    MS. When he turned around to get a view of Michael Brown's front.

    Correct. Left side, partial front like, you know, like the side view.

    MS. Okay. As he was running away, do you remember what he was doing with his hands?

    Just running, I mean it was. MS. You just demonstrated a running.

    Just running, yeah. MS. And his arms are pumping back and forth?

    He pulled his pants up once, I know that.

    MS. Did his pants appear to be falling to you?

    Yes. MS. How so, can you describe that?

    He was half mast. MS. Meaning what?

    His rear end was hanging out.

    MS. Okay.

    He pulled them up twice cause when he first got out of the car, when the altercation stopped at the vehicle before he took off running, he pulled them up as well.

    MS. Okay. Then he pulled them up again as he running away?

    And then he pulled them up again as he was running down the street and then he turned around and then after that he never pulled them up again.

    MS. You said his hands were in like a running position?

    Correct. MS. So then what happened?

    After he turned around, he was like that and then

    MS. When you say like that, that's the what you are going to do about it look?

    What are you going to do about it look.

    MR. When you do that, you've got your hand and fists and are leaning forward.

    He started with the attitude and then he immediately went down into like that football with the fist.

    MS. Okay. So what are you going to do attitude his palms are open?

    Correct. MS. And then you said he shifted into this like fist, like --

    Well, because at this time the officer actually had the gun pointed right at him. I mean, it was obvious that he was getting ready to do something.

    MS. Who was getting ready to?

    The officer. I mean, when the hand was on the gun, the hand was on the trigger, he was ready to go.

    MS. Okay.

    And he was focused. He no longer had that confused just got smacked look, I mean, he was determined to, you know, not

    MS. So when this is all happening, you are watching it. So the officer is in one position and Michael Brown, the big one, is in another position. Where are you, who are you looking as you are describing what Brown is doing

    When Brown turned around with the, what are you are going to do about it, or whatever. And then I looked at the officer who had his gun, and by this time he come to the back of the SUV. I did not see him go there, when I turned back to him he was already there.

    And I looked back at the heavier set one, and he had, by this time bent down in the football position and had his fist made and he began to charge at the officer.

    MS. Okay.

    More of a head type first thing.

    MS. Can you describe anything about the heavier set guy, what he looked like, what his facial expression was?

    At that time he just looked like he was on something.

    MS. What makes you say that?

    The officer just started shooting him and he didn't do anything. He didn't flinch, he didn't wiggle anyway and he just didn't stop, he just kept going.

    MS. Okay.

    And that is when I said to the guy in the green shirt, I said, oh, my gosh, is he ever go to F, you know, quit.

    MS. What did you say?

    I said, is he ever going to fucking stop.

    MS. What did the man in the green shirt say to you?

    If he said anything, I don't know. I mean, it was more of just talking his direction.

    MS. Okay.

    I mean, he just kept going. And then the gun stopped and he was still alive and if he would have just laid down, and then there was like --

    MS. What?

  • lot of blood. MS. Okay. So let's go back. The guy starts charging at the officer and when did the officer start firing the gun? After he turned around and started charging after him. MS. Do you remember, did the officer give any commands or say anything? He did say something, but I don't know what. MS. How about the big guy, the heavy set guy? The heavier guy sounded like he was grunting. MS. Okay. Now, whether he was talking and I wasn't understanding him, I don't know. To me it sounded like grunts. MS. Were there any pauses in the shots? Yes. MS. What sorts of pauses? I don't remember the sequence, but I know that there was at least what seemed like a lifetime, but it was probably just a few seconds between up until the last two shots I mean, the shots kind of went boom, boom, four almost right in a row it seemed like, but then there was just enough of a pause and it was just, he wouldn't stop. MS. What was he doing? He was still going after him, he was still charging, he was bent down more. MS. And we're talking about the heavy set guy? Correct. MS. And what was the officer doing while the heavy set guy is charging at him? At that time he was, he was standing completely still and he was in focus mode. MS. At any point did the officer either come forward or come back? He actually came back it looked like, about two steps, there right before the last two shots. It looked like he went back a couple steps and then up one step and then it was just boom, boom. MS. Tell me about the last shot? That last shot, I didn't like the last shot. MS. Okay. What about it? Too much blood. And then he went down and he went down face first and I just wanted to leave, so I left. MS. Okay. Did you the guy go down right away after the last shot? After the last shot, it was like two shots, the first one he started to go down and the second shot he was down. MS. Do you see where either one of those shots hit? The final shot, you know, I didn't actually see where it hit, I just seen all the stuff that come out. MS. Come out of where? His head. MS. Did you notice any other injuries? I'm not saying there wasn't, I can honestly say -- MS. Okay. I didn't pay any attention if there was. MS. I understand you wanted to get out of there, but you were at this point still standing on the sidewalk, correct? Correct. MS. So what did you do, did you turn to the guy in the green shirt and say anything? No, I just left, but I was stuck in that parking lot. MS. Did you go right back to your car. No, I went directly back to my car. Not the spots that were up against the building, but the spots that were facing that way. MS. Okay. I know you are probably turned around. When you come down you have the first building here, you miss that first parking lot and you have that second entrance. When you pull in to the right and I parked facing into the neighborhood. MS. Okay. Did you ever see that other kid, again? He went down towards the street that QT is on. MS. West Florissant. Yeah, I don't know the street name. MS. The street that you came from? Correct. He took off his shirt and he stripped down to a, my calls them wife beaters. I don't know, the tank tops. MS. Did you see him actually? Yeah, he took that off right away. MS. When did he, I know you said he ran away, when did he reappear, when did you see him again? He reappeared real close to that guy in the green as I was leaving the parking lot because when I was in the parking lot, I backed up this way with my rear end towards the heavier set body and I started to go this way, and he was like right there at that time, he had just reappeared. MS. So how much time had passed from the time of the final shot and to the time that you saw this kid reappear? 15 seconds, 30 seconds. I guess. I don't know. It is in 20, 30 feet for me to get over to my car. MS. Okay. Did you notice him changing his shirt? He had taken his shirt off and he had drawn it over his left shoulder. MS. You are positive it was him or someone that looked like him? No, I was positive. MS. And then what you are saying. Correct. MS. At any point did you see any other police officers around? There were two officers that arrived, but I won't want to swear to when they arrived. I remember two showing up, I remember one having his gun drawn, but not firing his gun but I don't remember because I don't remember when they showed up. MS. What about the officer that fired the shot, after he fired that last shot, what did he do? He looked like he was going to throw up. He didn't look good. I mean, he just didn't look, urn, I don't know. MS. Not how he looked, like what did he do, what were his actions? What was his actions? MS. He just fired the last shot and what did he do? I don't know, I was leaving. MS. He fired the last shot, you saw the big guy fall to the ground. Correct. MS. And then what do you remember about the officer? Nothing really. I mean, he just kind of, I mean, the shot went in and I left. I didn't focus on anything or anybody any more after that. MS. Okay. So you left, you went back to the QT and asked for directions, correct? But I had to go through the neighborhood. MS. When you asked for directions, what did you ask for directions to? To nearest highway, I wanted any highway. MS. Okay. And the guy told me to make a right here and just go till you get to 270. MS. And why didn't continue to go to your friend's. I just wanted to go home. I didn't want anything to do with anybody. MS. Okay. I get on 270 and actually went the wrong way and again, and then got off and went back the other way. MS. When you got home, what did you do? When I got home, what did I do. I locked myself in my house for like two weeks. MS. Why? Don't want to go outside. MS. Why? Just, that was just a lot of stuff. MS. Can you explain to us what you mean? There's just a lot of blood. MS. A lot on the roadway that day? Uh-huh. There was just, this was just a lot. MS. I know, I don't know whether I'm asking you a hard question or I'm asking a question that should be obvious, explain to us what you mean. You said you have kids, right? We have , but I only have that still live in my home. MS. Okay. So when you say you locked yourself in your house for two weeks, did you literally not go out for two weeks? No, I didn't leave my complex for two weeks. I didn't have any communication with anybody or go out. I took my kids to and from school and took them to their activities right there in MS. Did anybody in your family or anybody that you know that you talked to anyone about what you saw? I talked to my ex-husband, but he swears up and down he doesn't remember the conversation. So I don't know. But my ex-husband is heavily medicated, so I can fully understand him not. MS. Heavily medicated with what? He's and he's on like three or four different medications. MS. Okay. When did you tell him what happened? Almost immediately after because I gave him step by step instructions on how to get there and everything that happened. MS. What do you mean? I told him everything. And the first thing he said was, you know, better not tell nobody. MS. Why not? Because he doesn't want anybody to cause any problems for the MS. Why did you think your would have problems? By this time, I mean, this was because that happened Saturday, this would have been Sunday, and by this time you already had death threats on whoever did it, I guess, is what he says. I don't know, we don't have cable. MS. You don't have cable, but do you have the internet? Yes. MS. Do you look at the news at all? I did for about the first week and then it drove me nuts and that's all there is. MS. Did you consider reporting what you saw to either St. Louis County or the FBI, it took you a while to come forward? It's been a long time. I didn't consider it, not really at first. MS. Why? Because I didn't want anything to do with it. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I felt like the officer does his job and it just kept going on, and on and on and on, and it was like. MS. Yeah, well, I guess this is my question. You said you were (inaudible) you know where the attention was? That is where I learned the name and which one was which. MS. So not only was there a lot of attention nationally and all of that, there was actually riots going on and not far away from where you live, right? Yeah, I --I knew, I heard about them. MS. My next question is right when you came in earlier, you know, from your dad to come in and do the right thing and that's why There is a difference. MS. All right. So explain it to us. You do what's right and that's what ultimately made me come in. But at the time I just, I mean, at the time I just didn't want to be in the middle of it. I still don't want to be in the middle of it. MS. I don't think nobody ever does no matter what the investigation, right, whether it gets media attention or not. But so --so giving what you're saying where your dad, you know, tells you and all of that and doing the right thing, but you're saying it never even dawned on you to come in and report it? I didn't say it didn't dawn on me, I mean, yeah, because it's, you don't get into the middle of an officer and his job. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? MS. I understand what you are saying, but yet That's what finally broke me was the fact that it just kept going and going and going. Every time you logged onto Facebook or any of the news websites, that's all there was. Nothing existed but Ferguson. MS. Okay. What prompted you to call St. Louis, that's what you did, right, you called St. Louis County too, right? Correct. MS. So what prompted you to call them? I actually called a few times before that and then I guess I made a comment that went too far. MS. What sort of comment? I have no idea. I called Clayton and made the comments, you know, about the situation. MS. Like what, like what sorts of comments? You don't have to tell me like word for word. Just that the officer had done his job and that, you know, he had been hit. I don't know word for word, because this is back in August. MS. So you called Clayton, you called Clayton where? From my cell phone. MS. Okay. Did you call the police department? Clayton nonemergency police department. MS. Okay. You did this how soon after the shooting? Probably within the first day or two, well, Tuesday, so one, two, I believe the first three or four days. MS. This is why I'm confused. Because first you are saying you didn't really consider reporting it, but yet you were calling information out and then commenting. So tell me what's going on But when I commented, I did not give them my name. I did not want anything to do with it, it is a different type of violence, it is a different type of people. MS. What do you mean? The situation is scarry. MS. We are not judging you at all, we just need to know. It is not the environment that I grew up in. MS. What do you mean by that? It is just not the environment I grew up in. I grew up, you know, from the day I got at five. I grew up right there by and that's where I spent my whole childhood, It was just different, you know. I remember the day I got stopped for jaywalking when I was 13 and the officer threatened to turn me over my knee and take a belt to my rear end, and that was just the way times were back then. And we didn't dare tell them no, it was yes, sir, or we caught it, you know, we got it. If we got in trouble outside the house, we got in trouble inside the house for disrespecting our elders or something else. So to me up there it is just not -- MS. You don't think there is any repercussions for their actions, for anyone's actions. What do you mean? MS. Well, you said an officer stopped you for jaywalking and if you did something wrong, you respected it. But if you got in trouble there, you are getting in trouble at home. Right. MS. And you're saying that's different because people in North County don't have responsibilities for their actions? It is not so much North County as it is the times. MS. For anyone? The situation that I had witnessed is not the same as what it was, is not the environment that I live in. MS. So you didn't want to tell us I didn't want anything to do with it, I still don't. I know it doesn't make any sense. I want to tell you because it is the right thing to do. I don't because I don't want to get in the middle of it. MS. And you're not alone, that's a common feeling, like I said, for anybody that ever witness's something. You have to spend the time talking to police officers as well as prosecutors. You guys are nice, but you make me nervous. MS. I'm glad we are nice. Why do we make your nervous? Police make me nervous, and you are higher than the police, that makes me a little extra nervous. MS. We are trying to find out what your motivation might be. As prosecutors, especially, we have to try to figure out what kind of case we have, if we can put a case together. When we speak to witnesses, everybody has a reason why they say something whether they're telling the truth or they have other motivation behind it. So when we have somebody who is telling us what you are, takes you five weeks to come forward, we just want to understand what was going through yon in those five weeks. That means you ultimately say I am going to tell you who I am. Honestly, this may sound corny, but I did a lot of praying. MS. Okay. Tell us about that. That's different from what you are saying now to us, I didn't think about it, if you were praying about it, you were thinking about it. I did do a lot of praying, especially at night. And I had been staying up till 3, 4, or 5 in the morning. And then I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning. MS. What would you dream about, what was your issue? Just going over what I had seen step by step every night and just asking, you know, I did go in and tell them this or I could go in and tell them that, and not really have to get involved. And then the next day I would pray and I would go like, I can't do that. Cause if I go in there and tell them what I seen, you're going to want to know everything. MS. So what were you concerned about telling us? Just, you know, I don't want to tell you any of it. MS. Okay. I mean, it was just praying do I tell them that I seen it, or did a friend see it, or I don't know, I kept going back and forth. But when I pray, I'm not one of these, my ex-husband is Catholic. I'm not one of those, you know, the rosary and the cross and the holy water. You know, I lay in bed at night and stare at the ceiling and just talk. MS. Okay. What ultimately made you decide it was actually time to come forward? Just seeing my dad. Not seeing him physically, I mean, he's deceased. MS. Okay. Just remembering that he, you know, you do what, you do respect. That's it, end of the line. You can screw up in life, we're human, but you are to respect the law, you respect your elders, you were always to speak the truth and if you know something, then you are to come forward. And it is not tattling, it's, you know. Did you say at the beginning you talked to after this? Correct. What did you tell her? I told her I got lost up in the Ferguson area and that's all I said. She never really asked and we agreed that we would get back together, but we never have, but she -- Does she know at all about this, about the shooting? I didn't tell anybody except for my ex-husband. Why did you tell him? I had already told my ex-husband and he told me not to tell anybody and then I never told anybody after that. I mean, I live right next door to several county officers and I never told them either so. And , she went to high school with you? Correct. Not the earlier grades, it is whenever, I think they call them whenever they bring, you have no idea. So it would have been like 83, '84 when they started Okay. This is at Correct, that's where we met. is that correct? Correct. Was she the same year as you in school? Yes, but I had been held back a year, so technically she would have been a year younger. The way my birthday fell, I should have graduated when I was 17, but because I was held back in the first grade, I became 18. Okay. You mention you have her number at home? Correct. You have her email address also? At home, yes. You said you sent her an email also after that? Yes. Did you say anything in the email about this? I emailed her the day I got lost. I got lost and I will get in touch with her in a few days. Do you still have that email, do you know? Sure, I mean, somebody could get it off of my computer. Just like go into your sent items or whatever? No, everything is gone as far as that goes. Why is that? I mean deleted. Okay. I don't do the fancy stuff like wipe hard drives or anything. It might still be on there somewhere? Right. You think after we leave here today, we're probably going to take a break here and talk a little bit before we finish up, but after we leave here today, do you think you could get us her email address and phone number? Uh-huh, yes. Okay. You guys want to take a break? Give us a minute. We are going to leave the recording on, if that's okay, I am going to check. That way we don't have to start it over and all that.

  • Okay.

    (Break in the interview.)

  • That way we don't have to start it over and all that.

    Okay.

  • Okay. You guys want to take a break?

    Give us a minute. We are going to leave the recording on, if that's okay, I am going to check.

    That way we don't have to

  • Uh-huh, yes. Okay. You guys want to take

  • You think after we leave here today, we're probably going to take a break here and talk a little bit before we finish up, but after we leave here today, do you think you could get us her email address and phone number?

    Uh-huh, yes.

  • Right. You think after we leave

  • It might still be on there somewhere?

    Right.

  • I don't do the fancy stuff like wipe hard drives or anything.

    It might still be on there

  • Okay. I don't do the fancy stuff

  • I mean deleted. Okay.

  • Why is that? I mean deleted.

  • No, everything is gone as far as that goes.

    Why is that?

  • Just like go into your sent items or whatever?

    No, everything is gone as

  • Sure, I mean, somebody could get it off of my computer.

    Just like go into your sent

  • Do you still have that email, do you know?

    Sure, I mean, somebody could

  • I emailed her the day I got lost. I got lost and I will get in touch with her in a few days.

    Do you still have that

  • Did you say anything in the email about this?

    I emailed her the day I got

  • Yes. Did you say anything in the

  • You said you sent her an email also after that?

    Yes.

  • At home, yes. You said you sent her an

  • You have her email address also?

    At home, yes.

  • Correct. You have her email address

  • Okay. You mention you have her number at home?

    Correct.

  • Yes, but I had been held back a year, so technically she would have been a year younger. The way my birthday fell, I should have graduated when I was 17, but because I was held back in the first grade, I became 18.

    Okay. You mention you have

  • Was she the same year as you in school?

    Yes, but I had been held

  • Correct. Was she the same year as you

  • is that correct?

    Correct.

  • Correct, that's where we met.

    is that

  • Okay. This is at Correct, that's where we

  • So it would have been like 83, '84 when they started

    Okay. This is at

  • Correct. Not the earlier grades, it is whenever, I think they call them

    whenever they bring, you have no idea.

    So it would have

  • And , she went to high school with you?

    Correct. Not the earlier

  • I had already told my ex-husband and he told me not to tell anybody and then I never told anybody after that. I mean, I live right next door to several county officers and I never told them either so.

    And , she went to high

  • Why did you tell him? I had already told my

  • I didn't tell anybody except for my ex-husband.

    Why did you tell him?

  • Does she know at all about this, about the shooting?

    I didn't tell anybody except

  • I told her I got lost up in the Ferguson area and that's all I said. She never really asked and we agreed that we would get back together, but we never have, but she --

    Does she know at all about

  • What did you tell her? I told her I got lost up in

  • Correct. What did you tell her?

  • Did you say at the beginning you talked to after this?

    Correct.

  • Just remembering that he, you know, you do what, you do respect. That's it, end of the line. You can screw up in life, we're human, but you are to respect the law, you respect your elders, you were always to speak the truth and if you know something, then you are to come forward.

    And it is not tattling, it's, you know.

    Did you say at the beginning

  • Just seeing my dad. Not seeing him physically, I mean, he's deceased.

    MS. Okay.

    Just remembering that he,

  • I mean, it was just praying do I tell them that I seen it, or did a friend see it, or I don't know, I kept going back and forth. But when I pray, I'm not one of these, my ex-husband is Catholic. I'm not one of those, you know, the rosary and the cross and the holy water. You know, I lay in bed at night and stare at the ceiling and just talk.

    MS. Okay. What ultimately made you decide it was actually time to come forward?

    Just seeing my dad. Not

  • Just, you know, I don't want to tell you any of it.

    MS. Okay.

    I mean, it was just praying

  • Just going over what I had seen step by step every night and just asking, you know, I did go in and tell them this or I could go in and tell them that, and not really have to get involved.

    And then the next day I would pray and I would go like, I can't do that. Cause if I go in there and tell them what I seen, you're going to want to know everything.

    MS. So what were you concerned about telling us?

    Just, you know, I don't want

  • I did do a lot of praying, especially at night. And I had been staying up till 3, 4, or 5 in the morning. And then I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning.

    MS. What would you dream about, what was your issue?

    Just going over what I had

  • Honestly, this may sound corny, but I did a lot of praying.

    MS. Okay. Tell us about that. That's different from what you are saying now to us, I didn't think about it, if you were praying about it, you were thinking about it.

    I did do a lot of praying,

  • Police make me nervous, and you are higher than the police, that makes me a little extra nervous.

    MS. We are trying to find out what your motivation might be. As prosecutors, especially, we have to try to figure out what kind of case we have, if we can put a case together. When we speak to witnesses, everybody has a reason why they say something whether they're telling the truth or they have other motivation behind it.

    So when we have somebody who is telling us what you are, takes you five weeks to come forward, we just want to understand what was going through yon in those five weeks. That means you ultimately say I am going to tell you who I am.

    Honestly, this may sound

  • You guys are nice, but you make me nervous.

    MS. I'm glad we are nice. Why do we make your nervous?

    Police make me nervous, and

  • I didn't want anything to do with it, I still don't. I know it doesn't make any sense. I want to tell you because it is the right thing to do. I don't because I don't want to get in the middle of it.

    MS. And you're not alone, that's a common feeling, like I said, for anybody that ever witness's something. You have to spend the time talking to police officers as well as prosecutors.

    You guys are nice, but you

  • The situation that I had witnessed is not the same as what it was, is not the environment that I live in.

    MS. So you didn't want to tell us

    I didn't want anything to do

  • It is not so much North County as it is the times.

    MS. For anyone?

    The situation that I had

  • Right. MS. And you're saying that's different because people in North County don't have responsibilities for their actions?

    It is not so much North

  • What do you mean? MS. Well, you said an officer stopped you for jaywalking and if you did something wrong, you respected it. But if you got in trouble there, you are getting in trouble at home.

    Right.

  • It is just not the environment I grew up in. I grew up, you know, from the day I got at five. I grew up right there by and that's where I spent my whole childhood,

    It was just different, you know. I remember the day I got stopped for jaywalking when I was 13 and the officer threatened to turn me over my knee and take a belt to my rear end, and that was just the way times were back then. And we didn't dare tell them no, it was yes, sir, or we caught it, you know, we got it. If we got in trouble outside the house, we got in trouble inside the house for disrespecting our elders or something else.

    So to me up there it is just not -- MS. You don't think there is any repercussions for their actions, for anyone's actions.

    What do you mean?

  • It is not the environment that I grew up in.

    MS. What do you mean by that?

    It is just not the

  • The situation is scarry. MS. We are not judging you at all, we just need to know.

    It is not the environment

  • But when I commented, I did not give them my name. I did not want anything to do with it, it is a different type of violence, it is a different type of people.

    MS. What do you mean?

    The situation is scarry.

  • Probably within the first day or two, well, Tuesday, so one, two, I believe the first three or four days.

    MS. This is why I'm confused. Because first you are saying you didn't really consider reporting it, but yet you were calling information out and then commenting. So tell me what's going on

    But when I commented, I did

  • Clayton nonemergency police department.

    MS. Okay. You did this how soon after the shooting?

    Probably within the first

  • From my cell phone. MS. Okay. Did you call the police department?

    Clayton nonemergency police

  • Just that the officer had done his job and that, you know, he had been hit. I don't know word for word, because this is back in August.

    MS. So you called Clayton, you called Clayton where?

    From my cell phone.

  • I have no idea. I called Clayton and made the comments, you know, about the situation.

    MS. Like what, like what sorts of comments? You don't have to tell me like word for word.

    Just that the officer had

  • I actually called a few times before that and then I guess I made a comment that went too far.

    MS. What sort of comment?

    I have no idea. I called

  • Correct. MS. So what prompted you to call them?

    I actually called a few

  • That's what finally broke me was the fact that it just kept going and going and going. Every time you logged onto Facebook or any of the news websites, that's all there was. Nothing existed but Ferguson.

    MS. Okay. What prompted you to call St. Louis, that's what you did, right, you called St. Louis County too, right?

    Correct.

  • I didn't say it didn't dawn on me, I mean, yeah, because it's, you don't get into the middle of an officer and his job. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

    MS. I understand what you are saying, but yet

    That's what finally broke me

  • You do what's right and that's what ultimately made me come in. But at the time I just, I mean, at the time I just didn't want to be in the middle of it. I still don't want to be in the middle of it.

    MS. I don't think nobody ever does no matter what the investigation, right, whether it gets media attention or not. But so --so giving what you're saying where your dad, you know, tells you and all of that and doing the right thing, but you're saying it never even dawned on you to come in and report it?

    I didn't say it didn't dawn

  • There is a difference. MS. All right. So explain it to us.

    You do what's right and

  • Yeah, I --I knew, I heard about them.

    MS. My next question is right when you came in earlier, you know, from your dad to come in and do the right thing and that's why

    There is a difference.

  • That is where I learned the name and which one was which.

    MS. So not only was there a lot of attention nationally and all of that, there was actually riots going on and not far away from where you live, right?

    Yeah, I --I knew, I heard

  • Because I didn't want anything to do with it. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I felt like the officer does his job and it just kept going on, and on and on and on, and it was like.

    MS. Yeah, well, I guess this is my question. You said you were (inaudible) you know where the attention was?

    That is where I learned the

  • It's been a long time. I didn't consider it, not really at first.

    MS. Why?

    Because I didn't want

  • I did for about the first week and then it drove me nuts and that's all there is.

    MS. Did you consider reporting what you saw to either St. Louis County or the FBI, it took you a while to come forward?

    It's been a long time. I

  • Yes. MS. Do you look at the news at all?

    I did for about the first

  • By this time, I mean, this was because that happened Saturday, this would have been Sunday, and by this time you already had death threats on whoever did it, I guess, is what he says. I don't know, we don't have cable.

    MS. You don't have cable, but do you have the internet?

    Yes.

  • Because he doesn't want anybody to cause any problems for the

    MS. Why did you think your would have problems?

    By this time, I mean, this

  • I told him everything. And the first thing he said was, you know, better not tell nobody.

    MS. Why not?

    Because he doesn't want

  • Almost immediately after because I gave him step by step instructions on how to get there and everything that happened.

    MS. What do you mean?

    I told him everything. And

  • He's and he's on like three or four different medications.

    MS. Okay. When did you tell him what happened?

    Almost immediately after

  • I talked to my ex-husband, but he swears up and down he doesn't remember the conversation. So I don't know. But my ex-husband is heavily medicated, so I can fully understand him not.

    MS. Heavily medicated with what?

    He's and

  • No, I didn't leave my complex for two weeks. I didn't have any communication with anybody or go out. I took my kids to and from school and took them to their activities right there in

    MS. Did anybody in your family or anybody that you know that you talked to anyone about what you saw?

    I talked to my ex-husband,

  • We have , but I only have that still live in my home.

    MS. Okay. So when you say you locked yourself in your house for two weeks, did you literally not go out for two weeks?

    No, I didn't leave my

  • Uh-huh. There was just, this was just a lot.

    MS. I know, I don't know whether I'm asking you a hard question or I'm asking a question that should be obvious, explain to us what you mean. You said you have kids, right?

    We have , but I only

  • There's just a lot of blood. MS. A lot on the roadway that day?

    Uh-huh. There was just,

  • Just, that was just a lot of stuff.

    MS. Can you explain to us what you mean?

    There's just a lot of blood.

  • Don't want to go outside. MS. Why?

    Just, that was just a lot of

  • When I got home, what did I do. I locked myself in my house for like two weeks.

    MS. Why?

    Don't want to go outside.

  • I get on 270 and actually went the wrong way and again, and then got off and went back the other way.

    MS. When you got home, what did you do?

    When I got home, what did I

  • I just wanted to go home. I didn't want anything to do with anybody.

    MS. Okay.

    I get on 270 and actually

  • And the guy told me to make a right here and just go till you get to 270.

    MS. And why didn't continue to go to your friend's.

    I just wanted to go home. I

  • To nearest highway, I wanted any highway.

    MS. Okay.

    And the guy told me to make

  • But I had to go through the neighborhood.

    MS. When you asked for directions, what did you ask for directions to?

    To nearest highway, I wanted

  • Nothing really. I mean, he just kind of, I mean, the shot went in and I left. I didn't focus on anything or anybody any more after that.

    MS. Okay. So you left, you went back to the QT and asked for directions, correct?

    But I had to go through the

  • Correct. MS. And then what do you remember about the officer?

    Nothing really. I mean, he

  • I don't know, I was leaving. MS. He fired the last shot, you saw the big guy fall to the ground.

    Correct.

  • What was his actions? MS. He just fired the last shot and what did he do?

    I don't know, I was leaving.

  • He looked like he was going to throw up. He didn't look good. I mean, he just didn't look, urn, I don't know.

    MS. Not how he looked, like what did he do, what were his actions?

    What was his actions?

  • There were two officers that arrived, but I won't want to swear to when they arrived. I remember two showing up, I remember one having his gun drawn, but not firing his gun but I don't remember because I don't remember when they showed up.

    MS. What about the officer that fired the shot, after he fired that last shot, what did he do?

    He looked like he was going

  • Correct. MS. At any point did you see any other police officers around?

    There were two officers that

  • No, I was positive. MS. And then what you are saying.

    Correct.

  • He had taken his shirt off and he had drawn it over his left shoulder.

    MS. You are positive it was him or someone that looked like him?

    No, I was positive.

  • 15 seconds, 30 seconds. I guess. I don't know. It is in 20, 30 feet for me to get over to my car.

    MS. Okay. Did you notice him changing his shirt?

    He had taken his shirt off

  • He reappeared real close to that guy in the green as I was leaving the parking lot because when I was in the parking lot, I backed up this way with my rear end towards the heavier set body and I started to go this way, and he was like right there at that time, he had just reappeared.

    MS. So how much time had passed from the time of the final shot and to the time that you saw this kid reappear?

    15 seconds, 30 seconds. I

  • Yeah, he took that off right away.

    MS. When did he, I know you said he ran away, when did he reappear, when did you see him again?

    He reappeared real close to

  • Correct. He took off his shirt and he stripped down to a, my calls them wife beaters. I don't know, the tank tops.

    MS. Did you see him actually?

    Yeah, he took that off right

  • Yeah, I don't know the street name.

    MS. The street that you came from?

    Correct. He took off his

  • He went down towards the street that QT is on.

    MS. West Florissant.

    Yeah, I don't know the

  • I know you are probably turned around. When you come down you have the first building here, you miss that first parking lot and you have that second entrance. When you pull in to the right and I parked facing into the neighborhood.

    MS. Okay. Did you ever see that other kid, again?

    He went down towards the

  • No, I went directly back to my car. Not the spots that were up against the building, but the spots that were facing that way.

    MS. Okay.

    I know you are probably

  • No, I just left, but I was stuck in that parking lot.

    MS. Did you go right back to your car.

    No, I went directly back to

  • Correct. MS. So what did you do, did you turn to the guy in the green shirt and say anything?

    No, I just left, but I was

  • I didn't pay any attention if there was.

    MS. I understand you wanted to get out of there, but you were at this point still standing on the sidewalk, correct?

    Correct.

  • I'm not saying there wasn't, I can honestly say --

    MS. Okay.

    I didn't pay any attention

  • His head. MS. Did you notice any other injuries?

    I'm not saying there wasn't,

  • The final shot, you know, I didn't actually see where it hit, I just seen all the stuff that come out.

    MS. Come out of where?

    His head.

  • After the last shot, it was like two shots, the first one he started to go down and the second shot he was down.

    MS. Do you see where either one of those shots hit?

    The final shot, you know, I

  • Too much blood. And then he went down and he went down face first and I just wanted to leave, so I left.

    MS. Okay. Did you the guy go down right away after the last shot?

    After the last shot, it was

  • That last shot, I didn't like the last shot.

    MS. Okay. What about it?

    Too much blood. And then he

  • He actually came back it looked like, about two steps, there right before the last two shots. It looked like he went back a couple steps and then up one step and then it was just boom, boom.

    MS. Tell me about the last shot?

    That last shot, I didn't

  • At that time he was, he was standing completely still and he was in focus mode.

    MS. At any point did the officer either come forward or come back?

    He actually came back it

  • Correct. MS. And what was the officer doing while the heavy set guy is charging at him?

    At that time he was, he was

  • He was still going after him, he was still charging, he was bent down more.

    MS. And we're talking about the heavy set guy?

    Correct.

  • I don't remember the sequence, but I know that there was at least what seemed like a lifetime, but it was probably just a few seconds between up until the last two shots I mean, the shots kind of went boom, boom, four almost right in a row it seemed like, but then there was just enough of a pause and it was just, he wouldn't stop.

    MS. What was he doing?

    He was still going after

  • Yes. MS. What sorts of pauses?

    I don't remember the

  • Now, whether he was talking and I wasn't understanding him, I don't know. To me it sounded like grunts.

    MS. Were there any pauses in the shots?

    Yes.

  • The heavier guy sounded like he was grunting.

    MS. Okay.

    Now, whether he was talking

  • He did say something, but I don't know what.

    MS. How about the big guy, the heavy set guy?

    The heavier guy sounded like

  • After he turned around and started charging after him.

    MS. Do you remember, did the officer give any commands or say anything?

    He did say something, but I

  • lot of blood. MS. Okay. So let's go back. The guy starts charging at the officer and when did the officer start firing the gun?

    After he turned around and

  • At this point they take a break for a few minutes. It is 12:06. said your lunch was supposed to be here at noon. She's not here, so I think she might have gone to go get it. Do you want to fast forward past the break and keep listening until she gets here or you want to go to the bathroom and kind of --

    How much time is left?

  • We got through 55 minutes.

  • About another 40 minutes.

  • Do you know where to pick up at?

    (Continue recorded interview of

    When I get nervous I have a tendency of cracking my knuckles, so I apologize in advance. You are going to hear a lot of that later on.

    So we just have some more questions to just help us understand some stuff.

    Okay. So can you describe again how you left the complex after the shooting?

    Yeah. When I left, I went first, second entrance, I went from here and went over this way. I don't know, I'd have to look at a map because I don't remember, you know, zigzag because I popped out in the third parking lot is how I popped out.

    You said something about a circle that you went around?

    Right, well, I went to the right and then I know I went to the left, and then I went down a bunch of different streets and I ended up on the street that went like this.

    Okay, a circle. But you can drive around it and if I remember correctly, it was a parking lot, like you can park, but you drive around it. And then there's some buildings right here and I turned that way and then I made a left and that street dropped me off on the side of QT.

    Here is the problem that we have.

    That's what I remember. You are saying you came into the apartment complex from the direction that QT WAS in, right?

    Right. And you pulled out of the lot and then you saw all of this?

    Well, I couldn't, I'm sorry, what?

    And you saw all of this that we've talked about, right. You go back to your car and then when you went to leave there, did you turn the opposite way of the way you came in or did you go back the way you came in?

    I couldn't go the way I came in.

    Why is that? It was blocked. From the police incident, the shooting incident?

    Right. Here is the building and the entrance and another, you know, you had the parking lot here and here, or whatever, and building right here. And the officer's car was here and the heavier set Brown was like here, there was no getting in and out of this parking lot.

    Okay. So where you were in the parking lot was past where the body was and where the police car was, so you had to go the opposite direction of the way you came in?

    Right, I had to go out, I popped out over here in this third parking lot.

    Uh-huh. Or whatever .. Okay. Well, you couldn't go in or out. You couldn't go back the way that you came into the apartment complex; is that right?

    I couldn't go back to the street QT was on, no.

    Okay, that's what I'm asking. So you couldn't go back the way that you came. So you went the opposite direction

    I went into the-- You went further into the complex?

    Correct. And then back there you were able to find a way out onto the street where QT is.

    Right, correct. And that was around a circle drive?

    I remember the circle drive. I don't know all the different streets I took. Because I zigzagged through there for about 15 or 20 minutes going up and down streets. I remember a couple that dead end into parking lots and you go down it and just dead end into a building, and then I would turn around and go back.

    You never came back there, I'm sorry.

    MS. I'm sorry, you said dead end into a building, what kind of building?

    Apartment building. If you go down and you make

    MS. How many story apartment?

    I don't even know. I just turned around.

    MS. It was at least two or three stories?

    I just turned around. I went down to that stop and I made a left and then I know I made the first left and that's where I couldn't go. Because I had to turn around and I went back and I went, I don't know where I went.

    MS. Was it all Canfield Apartments, they all look pretty similar?

    At that point, yeah, they all look the same to me. I don't know, I just wanted out of there. But I didn't go back to the street that QT is on the same way I went. I ended up way over here.

    MS. I just want to explain to you a little bit, you understand that part of what we do here is we have to evaluate, you know, basically every statement a witness gives us, correct?

    Correct. MS. So part of us doing that is just why we are going through that with you is just saying, okay, you were here and turned around and we know you were here.

    Because sometimes people will say how does she know what happened she actually was never there, she doesn't live in the area. What we are trying to establish right now is that you, in fact, were there, okay?

    Okay. MS. That's just why we are asking.

    Okay. I can't give you step by step instructions.

    MS. That's not what we are asking.

    I just know for a fact that it wasn't the same way I came in.

    Our job as prosecutors, you know, we're trying to decide, you know, we're among the people who would decide whether this case is charged or whether it is not or whether it would go to trial or not, okay?

    Okay. So we have to evaluate witness as we sit here.

    She's making me nervous like I told her the wrong way.

    Oh, no. I only know I went that way. We're not worried about the details when you turn left or right whatever.

    Okay. There are a few things that do concern us some, okay, and just to be upfront with you.

    Okay. We want to let you know that basically what you are telling us is that you went further down into the apartment complex and you were able to get out that way without going back the way you came?

    Correct. There is no way out that way, that's the thing. We've got investigators who have been up there plenty and know all of those streets and --

    Yeah, there is because when you go around that thing, there is buildings and buildings and you go right through that parking lot.

    Uh-huh. And it pops out on a street that goes along the QT.

    MS. Right now, here is kind of a map of the area. I think that's the circle you are talking about, here is Canfield Drive, here is the way--you can't get, there is a blockade here and there is a blockade there. The only way to get out once you go down this street is to go all the way down here.

    And it has been that way a long time, long before August 9th and it is that way today. You cannot get out through that circle.

    Okay. Well, I came out right there because QT is right there.

    MS. Right, correct, but you cannot get there from these two streets, it is impossible.

    And there is around the corner I went somewhere because --

    MS. The street, the QT goes here and you cannot get to those streets. There are blockades, because we've had investigators try to get out on Canfield and you just can't.

    I don't know, I know for a fact I popped out on the side of QT.

    MS. Okay.

    I can't change that because that's where I popped out at. How I got there, I don't know, but that is how I came out.

    MS. You have a tremendous level of detail in some respects, but then very little detail in very simple things that I'm not quite understanding.

    I don't know the area. I apologize if I'm screwing it up, I just remember I came out alongside QT.

    MS. Right.

    I know I didn't go the same way that I did. Did I zigzag and end up how I got there, I really don't know.

    That's just an example, I mean, there are a few other things.

    I could go back up there, not that I want to, but I could.

    Let me ask you this, we talked about your computer and your emails earlier. You think after you leave here you can get us

    email address and phone number?

    Yes, sir. Would she tell us that you were coming to see her that day?

    Urn, I don't know what she would tell you, but she definitely tell you that I had, we were going to, oh, yeah, okay.

    Did she know to expect you that day if we asked her to come in and we said to her, were you expecting your friend to come visit you on August 9th?

    I don't know. What would she say? She knows I was on my way. What were the two of you going to do that day?

    She has a the same age as my and we really want the two kids to meet, but I wanted to get to see her, I haven't seen her since 1988.

    Why do you hesitate about what she'd answer, what would you expect to say?

    Were you expecting? I don't know if she'll remember if she was actually, because it was nothing, we had her address, I told her I was going to try to stop by. You know, did she really expect me at a given time on that day? I don't know. But she will be able to tell you that she knew that I was headed that way that day after the fact, does that make sense?

    She knew you were on your way? I don't know what she knows. So you didn't make a plan It wasn't an actual, I will be here at 2:00p.m., I will be here at 1:00 p.m.

    Had you emailed her beforehand to say I might stop by?

    Yes. So that email should be on your computer too?

    Yes, ma'am. Would you give us permission to look on your computer?

    Yes. What if we looked at your search history, were you doing a lot of reading about the case and looking at articles about it?

    I was for about a week or whatever trying to find out as much information as I could as far as, you know, where was it going.

    What about like in the last few days or in the week or so?

    It would have been just this past week.

    Did you read about it in just this past week?

    As far as like what, are you asking if I what?

    Did you do internet searches about the Ferguson shooting, about Dorian Johnson, about Michael Brown?

    I did maybe one or two searches about Dorian Johnson, that's the skinnier one.

    Uh-huh.

    (Stopping the audio recording.)