The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning.

    (Everyone says good morning.)

  • It is Monday, November 3rd, it is 9:26 a.m. This is Kathi Alizadeh. Sheila Whirley is present as well, and all 12 grand jurors are here, as well as the court reporter, who's taking down and recording what is being said.

    Some matters that I wanted to discuss before we start with evidence today. I would like you all to give us some dates for next week. And, you know, I had told you in the past that we are getting close to wrapping up, but you know, I don't know how long, you know, this is still going to last for sure and, of course, I don't know how long. We don't know how long you will need to deliberate.

    And so just go ahead and pick some dates for next week. If you could give us three days, that would be great. I understand, you know, with your schedules, you have to work around and we will work around those schedules.

  • couple of other matters is the floor plan with no door, remember the floor plan? So I had Detective talk to the gal, the leasing agent and she drew the door in here. They didn't change it other than she drew a little line where the door is on these second two bedroom version. And then she also wrote next to the marks, which would indicate a window, she wrote sliding door. These are new, I don't know if you all got rid of the old ones that I've given you. If you haven't, go ahead, and you want to give those to me and I will shred them so we don't get those confused. That's your newest version of that. So, for the record, I had previously marked that floor plan as Exhibit Number, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 51. I'm going to remark the new one that shows the door, as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 51. And I'm going to tear up the old one so we don't get those confused. I'm just using the same number, I just replace it with the accurate version. And then so we have the week scheduled out pretty busy, hopefully we're going to be chugging along here and trying to get some of these witnesses in and out. We talked about you all seeing the vehicle. We actually had a plan, we were going to try to do that today, we have now discovered because I had, I don't know if I was told this or I don't recall who even told me, I had believed that Officer Wilson's vehicle was back in service and the door had been repaired and it was back on the road being used as a police car in Ferguson. But last week we learned that it is not repaired and it is still missing the door. So we can't really have somebody drive it down here. It would draw too much attention if that was driving around like that. So I have a couple of options for you. We could have the vehicle towed to a location where the new call center is. There is a secure garage in there. We could have the vehicle towed there and then we could have you all, depending on the time of day we do this. If we do it at the end of the day, you all take your own vehicles out there, then you could leave directly from there rather than coming back to Clayton, or if necessary, we could get a van and take you all out there together to see it. Of course, then we'd have to bring you back here to get your vehicles, so that is an option. If you want to see the actual Ferguson vehicle. The limitations with that are going to be that the door is not on the car. And we have the door and I can throw the door in the back of the truck and you all can look at the door, but it is not going to be on the car. And so depending on what you want to see, it might be a better option for you if I could get a Ferguson Tahoe, same year and same model and everything, and that way you would have a complete truck, in other words. I will also tell you that I had someone from the Crime Scene Unit go out and measure the actual truck, the actual Ferguson vehicle points like from the ground to the top, you know, the roof from the ground to this and so forth. So we do have actual measurements if those are important to you, we'll give those to you as well. So maybe during your lunch break today you can talk about whether or not, if we just get a lookalike Ferguson truck, we can do that here, we had previously talked about doing that in the sallyport here which is where prisoners are brought in so they are automatic doors, it is secured, we would be able to have that area for 30 minutes. It is monitored by cameras because it has to be, but we've arranged that the cameras would be shut off so nobody is going to be seeing you. Of course, no recordings will be made of you while you are up around the vehicle. If we get the lookalike, we can do it here. If we are going to need the actual vehicle, we are going to have to make the arrangements to take you to another location to view that. So you can talk during your lunch break about what you want to do, or if you want to do both. If it is important that you see both, we'll do whatever, okay. How y'all doing, okay. I can't recall if there was any other things that needed to be talked about or brought up and if there are, yes.

  • I saw on KSDK over the weekend, or I think late last week, that they indicated that Dr. who did the family autopsy had mentioned that he was willing to come and testify before us and also that there is reportedly some of his findings doesn't agree with our findings regarding some, I guess it is stippling or whatever. So I know you put it out there already inviting him to come at your request to come testify.

    I don't know if you've heard from him?

  • The latest is we are trying to get him here. He had not, still has not completed his report. And he indicated that he needed a copy of the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Report in order for him to complete his report, which is protocol, it is.

    And you will hear from medical examiners we are going to bring in that that's necessary because obviously when you are doing a second or third autopsy, things that were done previously, you need to know is this something that, you know, was caused or created in the autopsy or is this a different wound. And so it is not unusual and in fact, you know, I don't want to say protocol, I think that is the appropriate medical procedure is to have the previous autopsy reports so that you can know what was done previously.

    Obviously, the bullets were removed already and things that were done are not going to be seen in a second or third autopsy.

    So we have forwarded a copy of that to the appropriate people to get to him. And so we've also contacted the appropriate people to have him check his schedule, let us know when he might be available.

    Obviously, we can't wait if I'm not available until January, we're going to have to make a decision on what to do about that in the event that happens. But yes, we have things in place right now where we are trying to get him to come here and testify for you.

    So that's being done and was there any other things that you guys wanted or needed that?

    I was going to see, we have learned a lot about Michael Brown through testimony. I still don't know a lot about Officer Darren Wilson.

    I know we brought his supervisor in briefly to talk about protocol, what happened that day. His story was very different from Darren Wilson's. Would be interested to know if we know about what his morning was like.

  • What?

    What his morning was like that day. History, you know, behavioral, awards, whatever that may be. I know a lot about Michael Brown, but not a lot about Darren Wilson.

  • We have his personnel file and that is something we will get to you. Kind of our strategy here is once we get done with all of our eyewitnesses, then we are going to have some experts still testify. And then probably the last witness is going to be Detective who is the primary case officer on this. And so a lot of, some of that stuff is going to come in through him.

    But we talked about the fact that there may have been witnesses who testified earlier in the process that now that you know more than you did back then, you may wish us to recall some witnesses.

    As you know, we cannot compel Officer Wilson to testify. So all I could do is extend an invitation if you wanted him to come back.

    If anybody else that now you look at, you know, what you now know and you are comparing what the witness said previously. If you have additional questions for any witness who has already testified, just let us know and we will do our best to get them in here again.

    So we talked about that last week that you know, this whole thing began two months ago so and you've heard from, you know, what am I on now, how many witnesses have we had, 47. We have had 47 witnesses. So it is a lot.

    So you guys can discuss that as well. If you want to recall any witnesses and again, it would be an invitation to Officer Wilson if you wanted to have him back. We would do what we can to get him here.

    Other matters is that we have the taped statement of who testified last week and it is an hour and 26 minutes or so. And if you would like to hear that statement, we could play it. If you just want to get the transcript, I can pass that out to you, but that's something you can discuss during lunch as well if you want to hear her statement because we've got a witness here now so we're going to play some statements of that witness and then get her on the stand.

    And then when this is close to being concluded, Sheila and I are going to have to go through the notes and the transcripts to make sure that we've given you, we kind of got out of playing all the statements before the witness and, you know, we've proceeded with okay, we'll play those later. I want to make sure that we don't miss anything that there was a statement that we forgot to play or present to you.

    So we'll make sure we try to get that the boxes checked off to make sure you guys have heard everything.

    So at this time now we're going to play some recorded statements from a witness who we will identify as Witness Number 48.

    We have transcripts for two statements. The first statement is ten minutes and 58 seconds. The second statement is a minute 35 seconds, which is just a phone call and then we have transcripts for those two.

    Then there is a third statement that is 22 minutes and 32 seconds with no transcript for that since that was just done last week, and so I would ask that we'll go pause the recording while we are playing statements. , you do not need to transcribe the first two statements, but I would ask that you transcribe for the third one.

    So at this time, if you the want to pause that.

    So now that we're paused, I will tell you the two transcripts are together.

  • whole list of all the witnesses so we make sure that we have them also what you have.

  • Absolutely, I have been keeping track of that.

    The other thing is over the weekend I was trying to organize the exhibits and I'm still missing Number 48. So if anybody keeps track of the numbers.

  • What is 48?

    Exhibit 48?

  • It is the witness number coincidentally.

  • Is everybody ready to start the statements? Okay.

    (This will be the playing of the audio recorded statements of Witness 48.)

    (This is the playing of audio interview number three of Witness Number 48 that is being transcribed.)

    This is special agent We are at FBI 2222 Market Street. It is Wednesday, October 29th, 2014, approximately 9:21 a.m. I'm with USA and DOJ trial attorney and we are here interviewing.

    Is your name spelled

    Uh-huh. Are you still at No, no. What's your residence address?

    Urn, I don't know the address, but I know the street I live off of

    Okay. Where is that

    Yeah. Okay. If I needed to get ahold of you, what is best number to call?

    I don't know, my mom. Your mom's, okay. What about your godmother who is here with you?

    She's probably the best person to call. I wasn't even thinking about her.

    What's her name? She's waiting outside for you here today?

    Uh-huh. She came down with you? Do you know what her phone number is?

    Okay. And what's your date of birth?

    And what's your social security number.

    okay. Okay. MR. All right. thanks for being here today. We wanted to follow-up on some statements that you gave before, all right. I know that on August 14th you talked to investigators, okay, and we just had a few questions about that and wanted to follow-up.

    Before we do that, I just want to go through some preliminary things that we do with most witnesses, okay, or basically I want to remind you, obviously, you know this is being recorded, and you have to say yes or no.

    Yes. MR. Just because it is being recorded you have to, if I ask you a question, yes or no answer, be sure to a yes or no just so it shows up on the tape, okay?

    Okay. MR. I also want to tell you don't answer any question you don't understand, okay? If I ask you something and you're not sure exactly what I mean by that, just feel free to ask me to explain it, I will do that, all right, you understand?

    Uh-huh. MR. Basically we don't want you to answer any questions that you don't understand.

    All right. MR. All right. I need to warn you that it is a crime to lie to the FBI or federal investigators, okay?

    Uh-huh. MR. So you need to be sure to tell the truth today, you understand that?

    Yes. MR. Basically we are just looking for the truth here. We've talked to a lot of different witnesses and all we are looking for is what you actually saw and heard on August 9th of this year, okay?

    Uh-huh. I know there have been a lot of things in the media and that sort of thing. If you are going to refer to any of that or whatever, that's fine, you just need to let us know, but otherwise, we are just looking for what you actually saw.

    Okay. MR. All right. Okay, I also wanted to ask you are you under the influence of any drugs or alcohol today?

    No. MR. Is there anything else that would influence your ability to tell us the truth today?

    No, just anxiety. That's not going to stop me from telling the truth though.

    MR. You just a little nervous?

    Yeah. MR. Okay. That's normal, don't worry about that, that's perfectly normal.

    Okay. MR. Let's go back through. As I said, I know that you gave a statement on August 14th and I understand that on that date you were in an minivan with your family; is that right?

    That's right. MR. Were you sitting in the minivan?

    I was sitting in the second row, in the middle of the second row.

    MR. Did you have a clear view of what was going on?

    Yes. MR. What was your view? I mean, where were you looking?

    The windshield. MR. All right. You looking the front through the windshield?

    Yes. MR. And you see a young man that's standing near a police cruiser; is that right?

    Yes. MR. The young man, do you know who that is now?

    I know now. MR. And based on just things that have happened since then?

    I really don't like listen to radio or news like that.

    MR. Uh-huh.

    So the only thing I know is his name for real that's because I have been back to the complex

    MR. ?

    Yes. MR. What is the name of the young man at the side of the police cruiser?

    Michael Brown. MR. Did you know that at the time?

    No. MR. Did you know him at all?

    No. MR. Okay. Is it okay then if we just refer to that young man as Michael Brown since you learned what his name is since then?

    Yeah. MR. So you see him standing here at the police cruiser?

    Yes. MR. And the police cruiser is in the street?

  • Yes. MR. And what do you see happening there at the police cruiser? I see Michael Brown standing in front of the cruiser by the driver's side of the door. MR. Is he facing the police cruiser? Yes. MR. Facing the driver's side door?

  • Yes. MR. About how far away do you think he is from the door?

  • Yes. MR. Facing the driver's side door?

    Yes.

  • I see Michael Brown standing in front of the cruiser by the driver's side of the door.

    MR. Is he facing the police cruiser?

    Yes.

  • couple inches. MR. Basically right there. Yeah. MR. What do you see? I see him talking, I don't know really what he was doing. I know that he had his back to me. MR. Uh-huh. His hands were in front of him. I don't know like, if you see a person behind, from the behind and you just see their arms, you don't see them like hanging down. MR. Okay. You see them in front of him? MR. So he's facing the police cruiser's driver's side door? Yeah. MR. Is there a police officer in the cruiser at the time? Yes. MR. Where is the police officer? In the driver's seat. MR. Okay. I understand it is an obvious question, but so the police officer is in the driver's seat, Michael Brown is facing the police officer? Yes. MR. At the driver's side. MS. Just for the recording, when you were demonstrating just a few moments ago, you said his hands were forward. You held your hands so that your elbows were bent at almost right angles with your hands slightly above waist level in front of you. Right. MR. Could you see what Michael Brown was doing with his hand at that time? No. MR. You just know that his hands were in front of him? Yes. MR. And you say he was just a few inches from the side of the police cruiser? Right. MR. Could you tell from your angle whether or not his hands were inside the vehicle or outside the vehicle? I don't know if his hands were in the vehicle. MR. You just couldn't tell? I just couldn't tell what he was doing. I just seen that his hands were like midway up, not like in the air, I don't know they weren't hanging down, so I don't know what he was doing. MR. His hands were in front of him. You can't tell what he was doing with his hands? Right. And then heard two gunshots. One, like I didn't really pay attention to because I was in the middle talking to my sister. And then the second one I clearly heard and then my mother asked me were they shooting at each other? I was like, I don't know. And then we look, we was watching it and Michael Brown took off running down Canfield the opposite of West Florissant, opposite way. MS. Was there anybody besides Michael Brown standing outside of the police cruiser. I didn't see the dude in the gray pants, I didn't see him standing by the cruiser. MS. Okay. I just seen him run from like behind it like kind of and he took off running across the field behind the other apartments. MR. Okay. So when you first, do you know who the other guy is? No. MR. You don't know his name? Huh-uh. MR. Can you describe him? He's a thin man, had on a black T-shirt and I guess gray jogging pants and I believe he had dreads. MR. Okay. He wasn't like MR. He was a young black male? Yes. MR. So thinner, dreads? Uh-huh. MR. And a younger black male? Uh-huh. MR. Is that right? Yes. MR. So the first time you see them you think he is somewhere around the back of the police vehicle? Right. MR. You see him take off running? Right. MR. When did he run, when did he take off running? After the first shot was fired, after the first two I heard. MR. Then you say Michael Brown after the second shot took off running down Canfield? Yes. MR. Okay. And at some point then do you see the police officer get out of the vehicle? Yeah, you seen the officer hop out of his cruiser and he is running behind and he's yelling stop. Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't, so he started shooting him. MR. All right. So the police officer was yelling at him multiple times to stop? Yes. MR. At any time the police officer was yelling stop as he's charging at him, did Michael Brown stop? He slowed down, I thought he was going to stop, but he kept charging towards him. Like he slowed down for a second and then he started running again. Like he put his hand up in the air like, he put his hands up and then he put his hand like in front of him like this way. MR. Let's talk about this, you say he started to put his hands up? Yes. MR. Michael Brown did? Yes. MR. But then he pulled his hands down and you demonstrated that you kind of had a fist in front of you like at your chest height? Right. MR. And can you describe, he had his hands at his chest? His hands were balled up. He has his arms bent towards his chest and he's running like, you know, almost like a tackle running. MR. Okay. And I see him shoot him. I don't know, he wasn't going to stop. I don't know how many times he shot him altogether, but like you seen like one of the bullets hit him in the face, cause you seen like the splatter from it. I'm sorry, it distracted me for a second. MR. I understand, I understand. You say it didn't look like Michael Brown was going to stop. No. MR. He wasn't going of his own volition going to stop? He was running, he slowed down, and then he kept running and he shot him and was like for a second he kind of like slowed down and staggered. He kept charging, so he shot him again. MR. All right. You said that the police officer was at that time telling him to stop? Yes. MR. Repeatedly. You said that in your statement on August 14th that referring to Michael Brown you said the boy wouldn't stop, he fired three rounds, that would be the police officer? Right, he fired the three rounds first. MR. And the dude kept running and the police, you say the police officer fired four more rounds? Yes. MR. Does that sound about right? Yes. MR. And then he finished off the rounds and he fell on the ground, Michael Brown fell on the ground? Right. MR. How did he fall, did you see him fall? If you were in a standing position, he kind of stopped and he kind of like started to lean forward like this and then he kind of fell on his knees and smacked the ground on his face. MR. So he fell face first? Yes. MR. And when he was laying there on the ground, he was laying face first on the ground? Yes. MS. You indicated again, just for the tape, you were standing up just now. You had your right hand down near your waistband area and your left arm was sort of hanging down loose, is that how you recall it? No, that's just how I was standing. MS. Okay, that's good. Do you recall sort of what his hands were doing? When he went from running with his hands balled up like this. MS. His hands up by his chest? Yeah, he just kind of like stopped and was standing there, and he kind of just fell forward. MS. Okay. MR. As Michael Brown was running away from the police officer, from the police car, did you see the police officer shoot at him at all at that time? No, he did not fire at him. MR. How about, you said that when Michael Brown turned around, he briefly, looked like he briefly started to put his hands up? Right. MR. Was the police officer shooting at him at that time? No. MR. When did the police officer start shooting at him after the first two shots in the car? Urn, it took him a minute to fire at him for real. I probably would have shot him instantly you charge at me like that, but when he was running back he was screaming stop, stop. And the officer was backing up as he kept coming closer to him and he didn't stop. So he shot him three times and he was still charging towards him and he shot him again, shot him four more times. MR. Okay. So the police officer didn't start shooting again until Michael Brown was actually charging at him? Right. MR. As the police officer was yelling for him to stop? Right. MR. You say he's actually backing away from Michael Brown? Right. MR. All right. You want to take a quick break? MS. Just a couple quick follow-up then we can take a quick break. Did you see the officer, what did the officer do after Michael Brown fell to the ground? Got back up, I guess, I don't know. I mean, he didn't actually walk up on the body. MS. Okay. MR. Did you ever see him approach the body at all? No. MR. Or the area around it? Huh-uh. MR. Okay. MS. When you first came up on this situation and you are in your family's minivan, was Michael Brown already at the police car, was the police car already stopped? Uh-huh. MS. There is already some interaction as you come up? Yes. MS. That's what makes your vehicle stop? Yes. MS. When he was at the, when Michael Brown was at the police vehicle, you indicated that his hands were up in front of him and you could see that from the back because you couldn't see the lower part of his arms; is that right? Right. MS. Could you see where his head was? Like it was just in front of the car, like if you are standing, if you are like standing in front of the car like this. MS. Okay. I don't know exactly what it did. MS. Did you ever seen him lean into the car? No. MS. At that point you said you were talking with your sister? Yes. MS. It wasn't really until that first shot went off that Everybody just like. MS. Your full focus was on what was happening? Right. MR. When you say standing in front of the car, you talking about facing? Yeah, facing the cruiser. MR. Facing the driver's side. Driver's side of the cruiser. MS. Did you guys stay where you were when you pulled up here? Yeah, we pretty much stopped. MS. And didn't move. There was a little girl trying to hide on the side of our car from the shooting. MS. Do you know who she was? No. MS. Little girl, like a kid? Yeah, like maybe middle school. MS. Oh, yeah. Then after everything was done, after he's on the ground and did you guys move your car, what did you guys do? We stood there for a second, we sat there in the vehicle for a second like. MS. What do you do? Like, damn, you know, and then I went on into cause I still had to go right on MS. Did you drive past the body. Yeah. MS. Okay. But not down the street, I turned into the parking lot. Say this is the street, we're right here. MS. Okay. There is multiple places where you can drive into the parking lot. So we went in, we made a left and we went around. MS. Okay. Around the building? There is still a parking lot right here. We are at the bend where his body was laying. MR. Who was in the van with you that day?

  • My mother, my father, my sister, my older sister, and my niece, my younger niece.

    MR. Okay. What is your mother and father's name?

    MR. And then your sister who is with you, your older sister?

    MR. How about the niece. MR. How old is she. MR. years old? MR. You want to take a break? Okay. Why don't we take a quick break here. We will take a minute or two. And then if you don't mind, we will just leave the recording on so we don't have to start it all over when we come back in. You're welcome to stay here and wait or if you want to go out with your godmother out in the lobby.

    MS. We'll just be a second. MR. We will be right back.

    (A break was taken at this time.)

  • There is still a parking lot right here. We are at the bend where his body was laying.

    MR. Who was in the van with you that day?

    My mother, my father, my

  • There is multiple places where you can drive into the parking lot. So we went in, we made a left and we went around.

    MS. Okay. Around the building?

    There is still a parking

  • But not down the street, I turned into the parking lot. Say this is the street, we're right here.

    MS. Okay.

    There is multiple places

  • Yeah. MS. Okay.

    But not down the street, I

  • Like, damn, you know, and then I went on into cause I still had to go right on

    MS. Did you drive past the body.

    Yeah.

  • We stood there for a second, we sat there in the vehicle for a second like.

    MS. What do you do?

    Like, damn, you know, and

  • Yeah, like maybe middle school.

    MS. Oh, yeah. Then after everything was done, after he's on the ground and did you guys move your car, what did you guys do?

    We stood there for a

  • No. MS. Little girl, like a kid?

    Yeah, like maybe middle

  • There was a little girl trying to hide on the side of our car from the shooting.

    MS. Do you know who she was?

    No.

  • Yeah, we pretty much stopped.

    MS. And didn't move.

    There was a little girl

  • Driver's side of the cruiser.

    MS. Did you guys stay where you were when you pulled up here?

    Yeah, we pretty much

  • Yeah, facing the cruiser. MR. Facing the driver's side.

    Driver's side of the

  • Right. MR. When you say standing in front of the car, you talking about facing?

    Yeah, facing the cruiser.

  • Everybody just like. MS. Your full focus was on what was happening?

    Right.

  • Yes. MS. It wasn't really until that first shot went off that

    Everybody just like.

  • No. MS. At that point you said you were talking with your sister?

    Yes.

  • I don't know exactly what it did.

    MS. Did you ever seen him lean into the car?

    No.

  • Like it was just in front of the car, like if you are standing, if you are like standing in front of the car like this.

    MS. Okay.

    I don't know exactly what

  • Right. MS. Could you see where his head was?

    Like it was just in front

  • Yes. MS. When he was at the, when Michael Brown was at the police vehicle, you indicated that his hands were up in front of him and you could see that from the back because you couldn't see the lower part of his arms; is that right?

    Right.

  • Yes. MS. That's what makes your vehicle stop?

    Yes.

  • Uh-huh. MS. There is already some interaction as you come up?

    Yes.

  • Huh-uh. MR. Okay. MS. When you first came up on this situation and you are in your family's minivan, was Michael Brown already at the police car, was the police car already stopped?

    Uh-huh.

  • No. MR. Or the area around it?

    Huh-uh.

  • Got back up, I guess, I don't know. I mean, he didn't actually walk up on the body.

    MS. Okay. MR. Did you ever see him approach the body at all?

    No.

  • Right. MR. All right. You want to take a quick break?

    MS. Just a couple quick follow-up then we can take a quick break. Did you see the officer, what did the officer do after Michael Brown fell to the ground?

    Got back up, I guess, I

  • Right. MR. You say he's actually backing away from Michael Brown?

    Right.

  • Right. MR. As the police officer was yelling for him to stop?

    Right.

  • Urn, it took him a minute to fire at him for real. I probably would have shot him instantly you charge at me like that, but when he was running back he was screaming stop, stop. And the officer was backing up as he kept coming closer to him and he didn't stop. So he shot him three times and he was still charging towards him and he shot him again, shot him four more times.

    MR. Okay. So the police officer didn't start shooting again until Michael Brown was actually charging at him?

    Right.

  • No. MR. When did the police officer start shooting at him after the first two shots in the car?

    Urn, it took him a minute to

  • Right. MR. Was the police officer shooting at him at that time?

    No.

  • No, he did not fire at him. MR. How about, you said that when Michael Brown turned around, he briefly, looked like he briefly started to put his hands up?

    Right.

  • Yeah, he just kind of like stopped and was standing there, and he kind of just fell forward.

    MS. Okay. MR. As Michael Brown was running away from the police officer, from the police car, did you see the police officer shoot at him at all at that time?

    No, he did not fire at him.

  • When he went from running with his hands balled up like this.

    MS. His hands up by his chest?

    Yeah, he just kind of like

  • No, that's just how I was standing.

    MS. Okay, that's good. Do you recall sort of what his hands were doing?

    When he went from running

  • Yes. MS. You indicated again, just for the tape, you were standing up just now. You had your right hand down near your waistband area and your left arm was sort of hanging down loose, is that how you recall it?

    No, that's just how I was

  • Yes. MR. And when he was laying there on the ground, he was laying face first on the ground?

    Yes.

  • If you were in a standing position, he kind of stopped and he kind of like started to lean forward like this and then he kind of fell on his knees and smacked the ground on his face.

    MR. So he fell face first?

    Yes.

  • Right. MR. How did he fall, did you see him fall?

    If you were in a standing

  • Yes. MR. And then he finished off the rounds and he fell on the ground, Michael Brown fell on the ground?

    Right.

  • Yes. MR. Does that sound about right?

    Yes.

  • Right, he fired the three rounds first.

    MR. And the dude kept running and the police, you say the police officer fired four more rounds?

    Yes.

  • Yes. MR. Repeatedly. You said that in your statement on August 14th that referring to Michael Brown you said the boy wouldn't stop, he fired three rounds, that would be the police officer?

    Right, he fired the three

  • He was running, he slowed down, and then he kept running and he shot him and was like for a second he kind of like slowed down and staggered. He kept charging, so he shot him again.

    MR. All right. You said that the police officer was at that time telling him to stop?

    Yes.

  • No. MR. He wasn't going of his own volition going to stop?

    He was running, he slowed

  • And I see him shoot him. I don't know, he wasn't going to stop. I don't know how many times he shot him altogether, but like you seen like one of the bullets hit him in the face, cause you seen like the splatter from it. I'm sorry, it distracted me for a second.

    MR. I understand, I understand. You say it didn't look like Michael Brown was going to stop.

    No.

  • His hands were balled up. He has his arms bent towards his chest and he's running like, you know, almost like a tackle running.

    MR. Okay.

    And I see him shoot him. I

  • Right. MR. And can you describe, he had his hands at his chest?

    His hands were balled up.

  • Yes. MR. But then he pulled his hands down and you demonstrated that you kind of had a fist in front of you like at your chest height?

    Right.

  • Yes. MR. Michael Brown did?

    Yes.

  • He slowed down, I thought he was going to stop, but he kept charging towards him. Like he slowed down for a second and then he started running again. Like he put his hand up in the air like, he put his hands up and then he put his hand like in front of him like this way.

    MR. Let's talk about this, you say he started to put his hands up?

    Yes.

  • Yes. MR. At any time the police officer was yelling stop as he's charging at him, did Michael Brown stop?

    He slowed down, I thought

  • Yeah, you seen the officer hop out of his cruiser and he is running behind and he's yelling stop. Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't, so he started shooting him.

    MR. All right. So the police officer was yelling at him multiple times to stop?

    Yes.

  • Yes. MR. Okay. And at some point then do you see the police officer get out of the vehicle?

    Yeah, you seen the officer

  • After the first shot was fired, after the first two I heard.

    MR. Then you say Michael Brown after the second shot took off running down Canfield?

    Yes.

  • Right. MR. When did he run, when did he take off running?

    After the first shot was

  • Right. MR. You see him take off running?

    Right.

  • Yes. MR. So the first time you see them you think he is somewhere around the back of the police vehicle?

    Right.

  • Uh-huh. MR. Is that right?

    Yes.

  • Uh-huh. MR. And a younger black male?

    Uh-huh.

  • Yes. MR. So thinner, dreads?

    Uh-huh.

  • He wasn't like MR. He was a young black male?

    Yes.

  • He's a thin man, had on a black T-shirt and I guess gray jogging pants and I believe he had dreads.

    MR. Okay.

    He wasn't like

  • Huh-uh. MR. Can you describe him?

    He's a thin man, had on a

  • No. MR. You don't know his name?

    Huh-uh.

  • I just seen him run from like behind it like kind of and he took off running across the field behind the other apartments.

    MR. Okay. So when you first, do you know who the other guy is?

    No.

  • I didn't see the dude in the gray pants, I didn't see him standing by the cruiser.

    MS. Okay.

    I just seen him run from

  • Right. And then heard two gunshots. One, like I didn't really pay attention to because I was in the middle talking to my sister. And then the second one I clearly heard and then my mother asked me were they shooting at each other? I was like, I don't know. And then we look, we was watching it and Michael Brown took off running down Canfield the opposite of West Florissant, opposite way.

    MS. Was there anybody besides Michael Brown standing outside of the police cruiser.

    I didn't see the dude in

  • I just couldn't tell what he was doing. I just seen that his hands were like midway up, not like in the air, I don't know they weren't hanging down, so I don't know what he was doing.

    MR. His hands were in front of him. You can't tell what he was doing with his hands?

    Right. And then heard two

  • I don't know if his hands were in the vehicle.

    MR. You just couldn't tell?

    I just couldn't tell what

  • Right. MR. Could you tell from your angle whether or not his hands were inside the vehicle or outside the vehicle?

    I don't know if his hands

  • Yes. MR. And you say he was just a few inches from the side of the police cruiser?

    Right.

  • No. MR. You just know that his hands were in front of him?

    Yes.

  • Right. MR. Could you see what Michael Brown was doing with his hand at that time?

    No.

  • Yes. MR. At the driver's side. MS. Just for the recording, when you were demonstrating just a few moments ago, you said his hands were forward. You held your hands so that your elbows were bent at almost right angles with your hands slightly above waist level in front of you.

    Right.

  • In the driver's seat. MR. Okay. I understand it is an obvious question, but so the police officer is in the driver's seat, Michael Brown is facing the police officer?

    Yes.

  • Yes. MR. Where is the police officer?

    In the driver's seat.

  • Yeah. MR. Is there a police officer in the cruiser at the time?

    Yes.

  • You see them in front of him?

    MR. So he's facing the police cruiser's driver's side door?

    Yeah.

  • His hands were in front of him. I don't know like, if you see a person behind, from the behind and you just see their arms, you don't see them like hanging down.

    MR. Okay.

    You see them in front of

  • I see him talking, I don't know really what he was doing. I know that he had his back to me.

    MR. Uh-huh.

    His hands were in front of

  • Yeah. MR. What do you see?

    I see him talking, I don't

  • couple inches. MR. Basically right there.

    Yeah.

  • We are going to advance it until it begins.

    MR. All right. Thanks for waiting. We have a few more questions for you. I think had a few follow-up questions she wanted to ask.

    I just wanted to clarify. You saw his friend, the thinner one with the dreads run away? You didn't see him exit the car, you saw him run past the police, you saw him run behind the police cruiser?

    Yeah, I don't know if he is directly behind me or if he was just on the other side where I couldn't see. I just seen him run from that way.

    When did you see, you saw him run into the woods you say?

    Not the woods, he ran behind the apartment buildings on the other side of the street.

    Okay. Let me just. So here, that's West Florissant.

    Uh-huh. So about -- Right in between these buildings.

    When did you see him do that? Urn, wait, yeah. If you are over here somewhere?

    Yeah, right over here where these trees are.

    Okay. That was like right after the first two shots.

    After the officer was still in the vehicle?

    Yeah. You saw him run essentially south, to your right while you are looking at it right after those shots?

    Right. Okay. MR. Just to be clear, you talked a little bit about where Mike Brown's hands were at the time he was standing at the side of the police vehicle.

    Uh-huh. MR. And you wouldn't see if they were in front of him; is that right?

    Right. MR. Somewhere sort of waist or chest height in front of him it looked like?

    Yes. MR. You didn't see his hands up above his head?

    No. MR. You didn't see hands like down by his dies?

    No, they were in front of him.

    MS. Could you see the officer in the vehicle?

    No. MS. Michael Brown is a big guy, right?

    When he's standing in front of the vehicle I could not see the officer.

    MS. Because Michael Brown was blocking the vehicle basically?

    Yes. And then you said you have a

    ? Uh-huh. Did she see it? No, Now, when you went because you said you drove around, did you drive this way?

    Yes, and we had to pass through this way. We came this way.

    MR. So you kind of came around the apartment building from behind?

    Yeah. Did you tell her what you saw?

    Yes. What did she think? She said she didn't even hear it

    And have you been, I know things are different there, have you been back between that area?

    I just spent the there.

    Okay. Did you talk to people about what happened?

    No, I don't talk to nobody in there.

    Did you ever? No, I ain't never spoke to nobody. I know somebody in this building and my stays in that building. I don't even talk to her like that. I don't know nobody else in the complex. I go there for her.

    Okay. MR. All right. I don't think we have anything else. Thanks for your time today.

    Thank you. End the recording at 9:44 a.m.

  • Good morning. This is Sheila Whirley and Kathi Alizadeh is present and all 12 grand jurors, and , the court reporter. It is November the 3rd, 2014, approximately 10:15 a.m.

    That last recording that we heard was Grand Jury Exhibit Number 58.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 58 marked for identification.)

  • It occurred on October the 29th, 2014. The very first two recordings that we heard were from Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17. And those were, as you can see on the transcript, was from August the 14th of 2014.

    All of these recordings are related to the witness, Witness Number 48. All of these are from Witness Number 48 and we will hear from her momentarily. We're going to get the witness.

  • The first two you heard were on Grand Jury 17.

    Okay.

  • And those were both recorded on August 14th. And the third one you heard was on Grand Jury Number 58, and that was recorded on October 29th of this year.

    Thank you. WITNESS NUMBER 48, of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Throughout this proceeding we intend to refer to you as Witness Number 48, but for now would you introduce yourself to the grand jurors and spell your name for us, please? A Q

  • (Nods head.)

  • Okay. And you don't live in Canfield Green; is that correct?

  • No, I do not.

  • Who is your parents? A

  • Okay. And your sister? A

  • And they were with you that day on August the 9th, 2014?

  • Okay. Is there anything else we needed? Let's go ahead and get started.

  • Just so that we are clear on this, and we talked to you about not using your parents' name, just call them mom and dad and sister so that when we begin the recording, we won't need to redact if you say my mom, my dad, my sister, stuff like that, okay?

  • (By Ms. Whirley) I'm going to stand toward the back of the room so you'll speak loud enough for us to have a conversation. I know there is a microphone there by you, but it won't make your voice louder.

  • If you can speak loud enough so everyone can here, okay?

  • You know we are here regarding the Michael Brown shooting?

  • Did you know Michael Brown?

  • No, I did not.

  • All right. And you know he was shot by an officer?

  • Did you know the officer?

  • Did you know, do you know the officer's name today?

  • Okay. All right. So let's talk about August the 9th, 2014. How did you start your day?

  • Urn, I was hanging out with my parents at first, then my asked me to come bring something to , and I did.

  • Now your , where does live? A

  • All right. You've referred to our map, which is marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25. I told you about the laser pen there, you see it?

  • Why don't you pick that up. Can you figure out how to use it? There you go. So that's where your lived

  • Which one, which apartment?

  • Urn, this one. (indicating)

  • All right. So where were you, about what time of day was it that you were going to your

    ?

  • It was like 12:15.

  • Which way were you traveling?

  • I was coming down Canfield.

  • From West Florissant?

  • Okay. And you were, what kind of car were you in?

  • Minivan with your parents?

  • And where were you seated in the minivan?

  • I was in the second row in the center.

  • Was there anyone on the either side of you?

  • Yeah, my sister was to the left of me and my niece was behind me.

  • Okay. Did you have a pretty clear view of what was ahead?

  • All right. So you're traveling east on Canfield Drive from West Florissant?

  • Did you see the police car?

  • Yes, I seen the cruiser.

  • Cruiser, describe it, what did it look like?

  • It was an SUV, urn.

  • It was white.

  • Was it marked as a police car?

  • Okay. So where did you see it, you were showing us on the map?

  • Like in this right here, I believe.

    (indicating)

  • Like near Canfield Drive?

  • Our vehicle was here on Coppercreek.

  • Okay. Were there any cars ahead of you before you reached the police cruiser?

  • No, the only thing that was in front of us was the cruiser and Michael Brown, his back towards us, standing up on the cruiser. It was like maybe a few inches away from it.

  • How close I should say were you to the cruiser?

  • I'm not sure how many feet.

  • Like if you were to judge it by car lengths, you said there were no cars in front of you, but was there a space for a car to be in front of you before you --

  • There was enough space for at least like two cars.

  • About two car lengths?

  • And which way was the cruiser, we will refer to it as cruiser, was it facing?

  • He was facing towards West Florissant.

  • Was he parallel?

  • He was slightly angled going onto Canfield Drive like he was going to turn into the parking lot.

  • This way. (indicating)

  • Like he was going to turn that way?

  • But was he facing east or west on Canfield Drive?

  • I guess west.

  • This is West Florissant?

  • So that would be west, he was facing west?

  • You were faring east?

  • Now, you mention Michael Brown, Michael Brown was, what was Mike Brown doing?

  • He was standing at the cruiser like in front of it. I really don't know what he was doing, but he had his hands at least waist in front of him. I'm not really sure what he was doing.

  • Could you see his hands?

  • All right. How did you know his hands was at the waist?

  • Because if you see something from the back, you can tell that their hands are not dropped or up, you can see them in front of you.

  • You didn't see them dropped or up?

  • Okay. From your viewpoint, would you be looking at the driver's side or the passenger side of the police cruiser?

  • The driver's side.

  • So you were looking at the driver's side?

  • You were sitting in the center?

  • Okay. Did you notice the car moving and when I say moving, I don't mean driving, I mean like shaking or any motion to the car?

  • I'm not sure if the car was rocking or anything because I was in conversation with my sister. And I didn't really notice what was going on until I heard the first two gun fires.

  • So initially when you saw the car, you didn't think much of it?

  • You couldn't tell that there was some kind of altercation or something going on?

  • No, I couldn't.

  • All right. So you heard, you say two gunshots?

  • When you heard the two gunshots, where was Michael Brown at that time?

  • He was on the side of the police cruiser at the driver's side and that's when he took off running.

  • You actually saw him take off running?

  • Yeah, we actually sat in the van and watched him run down the street and then he turned around and came back towards the officer.

  • Did he appear to be injured when you saw him running?

  • No, I'm not sure if he was injured.

  • You couldn't see any blood or anything?

  • Which way, show us with the laser pen which way he was running?

  • He was running east down Canfield, right here. (Indicating)

  • The officer hopped out of his cruiser and chased him down Canfield. They got like right about here and then Michael turned around and charged towards. The officer and the police officer drew his gun and he was like stop, stop, stop and he shot him.

  • Okay. When the officer got out of the car, was he running too?

  • He was running behind Michael, he wasn't really close to him.

  • Okay. Did he have his gun out at that point?

  • You didn't see his gun when he got out of the car?

  • Did he shoot it, well, you didn't see his gun, did you hear any shots?

  • No, he did not fire at Michael while he was running away from him.

  • Okay. So when did you see the officer's gun?

  • I seen the officer's gun when Michael turned around and was charging at him.

  • So he didn't pull his gun out of the holster until Michael Brown started to charge him?

  • Charge him, right.

  • Okay. So when he was running, I think you said he was yelling stop?

  • I heard him yell stop at least three times.

  • When was the first time you heard him yell stop?

  • When he was chasing, when he was chasing down Canfield.

  • So Michael Brown's back was to him?

  • Turned to him, he was like stop.

  • He was chasing him, he was yelling stop?

  • He did not have his gun out as he was yelling stop?

  • No, he didn't.

  • Michael Brown turns around?

  • And starts to run towards the officer and the officer drew his gun and he pointed it at him and he was like stop, stop. And he was like going in reverse, like backing up.

  • The officer was backing up?

  • Would you mind standing up for me, please? What's on your arm, by the way, I couldn't help but notice?

  • A tatoo that time.

  • What does it say?

  • I don't want her to say that.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Can you demonstrate for us how Michael Brown was coming towards the officer?

  • He was like charging towards the officer withs his hands drawn up like this in a fist running towards him. (indicating)

  • Come towards me?

  • Almost like a football, I'm not going to run.

  • You don't have to run, kind of like walk towards me. Like that?

  • And the officer, can you show me how the officer was going backwards?

  • He had his gun drawn. He was like stop. He was backing up, he was like stop and he didn't, so he shot him three times.

  • Three times?

  • He kept yelling stop and Michael kept coming towards him.

  • At the time that they are, at this intersection

  • We're stopped.

  • You're stopped back here? (indicating)

  • But you could see?

  • We was closer towards the trees right here. (indicating)

  • Did you get out of the car at any time?

  • You stayed in the car as you were watching all of this?

  • And you were right around here?

    (indicating)

  • And it was occurring up here?

    (indicating)

  • It was like right here. (indicating)

  • Any idea how far that is apart?

  • No, it is not that far.

  • Okay. Some additional car distances though?

  • It was right here in this area.

    (indicating)

  • Is your vision pretty good?

  • You don't wear glasses or anything?

  • And you can hear pretty well?

  • I can hear just fine.

  • Okay. At any time did it look like Michael Brown had anything in his hands?

  • Okay. Or that he was reaching for anything?

  • Did you ever see his hands near his waist?

  • Did you ever see his hands raised up?

  • No, he looked like he was going to raise his hands at one point, but he didn't. He just continued to run forward. It looked like he thought about it, and then he didn't.

  • Okay. Tell us what you mean, demonstrate what you mean he thought about it, looked like he thought about it?

  • I mean like, he's running and then he like stopped, he put his hands up like this and then he kind of brought them back down and started running.

    (indicating)

  • Okay. That's when he charged towards the officer?

  • He was running already, he was still in the process of running, should I say.

  • Did you ever hear Michael Brown say anything?

  • Any idea how many shots you heard total?

  • At least eight or nine.

  • Okay. You heard two at the car and then you

  • Then I heard three and then like four more shots, maybe like one or two more after that.

  • And all of these were when Michael Brown was charging the officer?

  • Did you hear any shots after Michael Brown, at some point he fell; is that right?

  • Yeah, that was after he fired the last shot.

  • Okay. So you didn't hear any shots after he fell?

  • Did you see any of the shots hit him?

  • I seen the one hit him in the face because you could see like the blood spatter, you couldn't really see the bullets themself, but you seen like the blood fly away from his face. I don't know exactly where it hit him.

  • Okay. But you could see blood splatter?

  • Near his face?

  • How did he fall?

  • Urn, he kind of just dropped, like he stopped and he kind of like fell forward and like smacked the ground with his face.

  • I think in one of your reports he did fall on his knees?

  • He like hit his knees and he like just fell.

  • Now, did you ever see anyone with Michael Brown?

  • Urn, I seen a dude before all the shooting happened, there was a guy, thinner dude with Michael. He had on a black T-shirt and some gray jogging pants.

  • I really didn't get like a good look at his face.

  • Tell us how his hair was?

  • He had dreadlocks.

  • Was he at the police car too when you first noticed Michael Brown?

  • I was behind him. I didn't see where he came from.

  • When you looked and saw Michael Brown at the police car, did you see him also?

  • I didn't see him up on the cruiser but when the first two shots had been, he was like in this area behind the cruiser and he took off running along side of Building 18.

  • That's the way you saw him running. Did you ever see him reappear?

  • Did you take a video or anything of that occurrence?

  • No. Somebody stole my cell phone.

  • Somebody stole your cell phone?

  • (Nods head.)

  • Like that day or earlier?

  • Previously. Do you know anybody who did make a video of this occurrence?

  • Okay. Now, did you discuss what was happening with the people that were in the car with you?

  • The only thing we said was, my mom was like, did they shoot him? I was like, yeah, they shot him. I was like, he just shot the fuck out of him, that was all that was really said.

  • Do you know whether your mother saw it or not?

  • My mother saw the shooting, she just didn't know if they were shooting when the first two fires popped off.

  • Okay. All right. I think I already asked you, you said you didn't know any of the people that were involved in the shooting?

  • Is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you thought you need to tell us?

  • (Nods head.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) Ma'am, just to be clear. We've listened to statements that you made that a police officer talked to you, a detective on August 14th?

  • And I know you were using a map to show him certain things. And we can't see what you were doing, but can you show the grand jurors after your, who was driving the van?

  • So after the shooting happened, did your mother drive away?

  • Can you show on the map the route that you took?

  • We turned into Coppercreek, we went along the back on Coppercreek.

  • So when you earlier used the laser pointer and you said your cars was about right here?

    (indicating)

  • Yeah, about right here.

  • That's a little east of Coppercreek Road?

  • Did your mom have to turn the car around did she have to put it in reverse?

  • We were really just parked right here by the trees, just kind of back up a little bit. We was going to come down the street this way.

  • So you didn't get farther than Coppercreek Road?

  • Your mom didn't have reverse?

  • No, she backed up a little bit, yes.

  • Okay. Was there any cars behind her?

  • You didn't see any cars behind her?

  • No, but there was a girl standing here.

  • Okay. So you had mentioned in your statement, you called her a little girl. Thought maybe she was in middle school?

  • Was she white, African-American?

  • No, African-American.

  • African-American, okay. She by herself?

  • Did she have anything about her that you recall descriptively, long hair, short hair?

  • She had her hair in a ponytail. She had glasses on, looked like she got out of school.

  • So when you went around here and I'm pointing on Coppercreek Road and it kind of goes into the northern part of the subdivision, did you go directly then to your ?

  • Uh-huh. I and then I left.

  • So you didn't stay?

    63

  • Did you leave with your family then?

  • How did you get out of the complex?

  • We went back down Coppercreek.

  • The way you had come?

  • So when you came back down here, were you able to drive west on West Florissant?

  • There weren't a bunch of police cars?

  • Oh, yeah, they were flying down the street, but we were on the opposite side of the street. I mean, they didn't have it blocked off yet.

  • So you were, once you turned to go west on Canfield Drive, did you see police vehicles coming east?

  • Yeah, a lot of them.

  • So you never got down to this area where Michael Brown was?

  • I had no reason to go down there.

  • You mention that you'd been down there, you had mentioned in one of your statements that you have been down there since?

  • Have you seen the memorial in the street?

  • Was that where you saw his body fall or is that someplace else?

  • No, that is where his body fell.

  • But you know they have kind of got the memorial back on the sidewalk. They have a little bit of stuff in the street, but other than that.

  • Okay. So there's a bunch of teddy bears and candles and stuff in the middle of the street?

  • And then there's also another place where candles and teddy bears and flowers and stuff?

  • Along the light post.

  • Along the light pole. Is it on the corner of Coppercreek Court and Canfield Drive?

  • It's actually more where that car is right there. It is not exactly on the corner it is here.

  • The other one is not in the street?

  • Okay. Now in your, you talked about being with your mom and your dad and your sister. When the police came to talk to you, where did they, where did you speak to the police, where were you physically?

  • The first time?

  • The first time I was Q

  • Okay. And you don't live in Canfield?

  • Do you know how the police found you

  • Okay. So they just knocked on the door and said, hey, we want to talk to you about what you saw?

  • Pretty much. And then they said that my mother was the reason they had my name.

  • Okay. So are you close with your parents?

  • After this happened, I know you said immediately after it happened your mom was like, made some kind of comment about, did they just shoot him or something, but afterwards, did you talk about what you saw with your family?

  • (Shakes head.) I mean, nothing really to talk about. Just seen somebody get shot, okay. I mean, it is tragic, but I didn't know him so I didn't have sympathy for what was going on. I felt like he brought it on himself because if you are going to go rob a place and then fight with the officer, of course they're going to shoot you.

  • So let's back up now. You commented just now if you are going to rob a place and then fight with the police officer. Now, you didn't see --

  • I didn't see the robbery or the fight with the officer, no, I didn't.

  • So let me ask a question. So those are things that you learned afterwards?

  • And you said yes?

  • Did you learn those things before you made your statement on August 14th?

  • What statement?

  • The first officer that came to talk to you at your apartment, at that time did you know or had you learned or heard that Michael Brown had robbed the place?

  • I did not know that he had robbed any place. I didn't know why they were doing it.

  • I didn't know his name until long afterwards either.

  • When did you learn, if you remember, that Michael Brown, or when did you hear that Michael Brown had robbed the place?

  • I heard that after I seen it on the news where they had burned down the QuikTrip in Canfield.

  • Where they had what?

  • They had burned down the QuikTrip on West Florissant.

  • It was after that the QuikTrip burned down?

  • And then, and certainly then you also knew that when you gave your statement to the FBI and the U.S. attorney last week?

  • When you say uh-huh, you say yes?

  • Thank you. So you are saying that you never talk to your family about what you saw. You know, and the reason I ask this, ma'am, I think it is understandable when people see the same thing to kind of discuss it with each other just because oh, my God, can we believe we just saw that?

  • I mean, we were surprised and, you know, but never really talked about it like that.

  • So you never like, you know that your mom had talked to the police, right?

  • Yeah, but I was trying to avoid her giving them my name. So, yeah, I really wasn't talking to her.

  • You know that your dad talked to the police?

  • And do you know that I have talked to your parents about trying to get you to call me, did they talk to you about that?

  • Yeah, they contacted me and told me you were trying to call me and I called several times and I didn't know your name. So they were like, well, if you don't have her name, we can't help you. And I was like okay.

  • So you're saying you called my office and asked for the prosecutor handling the Michael Brown shooting and nobody knew who that was?

  • Yes, that's what I'm telling you.

  • And so it was actually last week that you and I, and actually, I never spoke to you on the phone, but we connected last week through somebody, another , right?

  • (Nods head.)

  • And in your statements previously you used the word charged. You said that you saw Michael Brown charge the officer?

  • That's right.

  • Did you hear anybody prior to you making your first statement, and your mom made her statement on the 11th and your dad made his statement two or three days after that, and you made your statement on the 14th. Did you ever hear your mom or dad use that term charged?

  • Like I said, we never really talked about it.

  • So that is a word that you used that I picked to describe what you saw?

  • And you also said that the officer said stop, stop, stop?

  • Do you recall if the windows were open or closed that day?

  • They were opened.

  • So you're saying you could hear him and when you said it for the grand jurors you kind of just spoke it, stop, stop, stop, is that how he said it?

  • No, he was yelling.

  • You could hear it as he was yelling?

  • Did you hear anybody else yell or anybody else say anything?

  • Didn't ever hear Mike Brown say don't shoot?

  • Or nothing like that?

  • Did you, other than the little girl that you saw by your van, did you see anybody else, and you also talked about the skinnier boy with the dreads, did you see anybody else around here?

  • What about other cars that were maybe behind the police car?

  • There were no cars on the street. There was no cars. All the cars were on the parking lot.

  • So you didn't see like a white Monte Carlo or any other cars that were behind the police car?

  • After the shooting, did you see a car drive up in the grass to drive around the police car to leave the apartment complex?

  • Are you saying you didn't see it or you saying it didn't happen?

  • I'm saying if it did happen, it had to be after we pulled completely away from Canfield while we were there it did not happen.

  • Okay. This is one of those things that always want to make sure to clarify when you say no, you didn't see it on anything. My question is, is that because it didn't happen or are you saying I just didn't see it or it could have happened, I just didn't see it.

    Was there ever a time in the van when you looked away or put your head down or ducked?

  • You never like got down in the van once you heard the first shots?

  • Have you heard

  • I was too busy watching what was going on.

  • Have you heard gunshots before?

  • All the time.

  • So when you heard those first two shots, did you immediately recognize that as gunshots?

  • Yes. Didn't sound like firecrackers or anything?

  • Did you ever see the officer's hands or arms or a arm or hand come out of the driver's window?

  • Did you see his gun come out of the driver's window?

  • Is it because it didn't happen or because you didn't see it?

  • I did not see a gun out of the window at all.

  • Okay. And were you, when you said that you were looking at the driver's side of that car, you see the back of Michael Brown?

  • So he's a big guy, right?

  • His body would have been blocking the window; is that right?

  • That's right.

  • As far as how Michael Brown was, I know you already described what you observed as far as his arms and you said you couldn't see his hand, but did you see his body moving in any way or was he standing still?

  • He was just standing there. I don't think he was really moving like, nothing like that in front of the cruiser and then you see him take off running after the first two shots that's all I seen.

  • All right. So now you're saying that you didn't want your mom to give the police your name, is that because you didn't want to be involved or is there another reason?

  • Because I didn't want to be involved and I didn't want to be sitting here doing this.

  • I understand. You're not the first person to say that. Do you know, did your mom and/or dad have a discussion with you and your sister about coming forward to talk to the police?

  • No, she just told me that she felt bad she didn't say nothing. And I was like, if you feel bad, then go say something. I didn't know she was going to tell y'all my name. Under oath you've got to tell the truth.

  • What about your sister. Now, has your sister, to your knowledge, talked to any police?

  • I don't think she has.

  • When is the last time you talked to your sister?

  • I don't have any other questions. Grand jurors may ask you questions next. Any questions from any of the jurors?

    I want to go back to the minivan, figure some things out about the layout of the minivan. What color is this minivan?

  • Your mom was driving?

  • Your dad was on the

  • Yeah, passenger side in the front.

  • You were in the second row?

  • And you said your niece was behind you?

  • This vehicle has three rows?

  • So you said you were in the middle?

  • You could see straight out the window?

  • That is correct. Okay. Most minivans the layout is when you open the door -- It's got the two seats and then it's got two seats.

  • Bench seat is in the back?

  • It's got the two seats and then it's got two seats.

    Bench seat is in the back?

  • Okay. Most minivans the layout is when you open the door --

    It's got the two seats and

  • I was trying to figure out how you got in the middle?

  • Because I was in the spot where there is no seat. I was on the seat, but I was already in the middle doing something with my sister, and when we were turning in. I mean, I know that sounds bad, supposed to have your seatbelt on and all of that stuff, but that is how I was sitting. Okay. You mentioned that you was bringing something to your Could you tell us what you were bringing to your ? A

  • Can you tell me the year and make of the minivan that you were in?

  • Okay. You mentioned that you was bringing something to your Could you tell us what you were bringing to your

    ?

  • No, I cannot.

  • Do you know Dodge, Chevy, Ford?

  • No, I don't know any of that.

  • So you're saying you were not sitting in the middle, you were leaning in the middle?

  • No, I was sitting in the middle. There's like in between the spot, between the seats and stuff there is a little thing right there. I don't know what it is called, but yes, I was sitting there because I was talking to my sister and I was leaning over doing something and I had my dog, but other than that, yes, I was sitting in the middle.

  • My dog, I have a

  • So your dog was in the van with you?

  • Okay. I didn't know that before, okay.

    When you saw someone standing outside of your window, I guess on the sidewalk, was it a younger female?

  • Yes, a little girl.

  • What did she do during all of this?

  • She just kind of ducked on the side of our van. That is another reason why we just didn't pull off.

  • She stayed there the whole time?

  • Until the final shots were fired?

  • Okay, thank you.

  • Ma'am, when this all started, were you focused on what was going on in front of you?

  • I was not when it first happened, I didn't really pay attention until the first gunshot, but then when I heard the first one, I immediately was looking out the window.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So my question is in response to one of the questions of the grand jurors, were you paying attention to what the girl was doing the whole time, or was it that after it was over you looked there and she was still there? How do you know she stayed next to your van the whole time?

  • Because she was there when we, when everything was getting ready to turn off, she was still standing by the side of my vehicle.

  • She was walking up the street when we stopped. You seen her walking up the street, I mean, I pay attention to everything that's going on around me.

  • Was she walking toward West Florissant?

  • No, she was walking east.

  • Okay.

    So I just want to make sure you're saying that your van was, your car, your van was on Canfield at Coppercreek, or a little to the east?

  • You did not, I'm asking this question, did you or did you not know about the robbery?

  • No, I didn't.

  • And the fight with the police officer when you gave your statement to the officers on August 14th?

  • You did not know about that at the time?

  • I just want to make sure, you said you didn't see the officer have his gun drawn when he got out of the car. I want to make sure that you saw him draw his gun or you didn't see him, did you actually see him draw his gun?

  • When he got out of the vehicle, ma'am, he had his hand on his waist.

  • He was chasing after Michael.

  • He didn't have his gun strawn until Michael actually turned around and started coming towards him.

  • Okay. I just want to make sure that the police cruiser is pointed towards West Florissant?

  • It is at an angle?

  • And you were in front of the car?

  • Correct. There were about two car lengths between you and the police officer's car. Nobody was in front of you? No. Nobody was behind you?

  • What about the inside of the police officers car you didn't see anybody, any car, nothing?

  • Nobody was behind you? What about the inside of

  • No. Nobody was behind you?

  • There were about two car lengths between you and the police officer's car. Nobody was in front of you?

    No.

  • No. And can I ask how old are you? A

  • Were you living with your parents?

  • And can I ask how old are you? A

    Were you living with your

  • No, I was staying on

  • Okay. That's all.

  • I just, I didn't ask you this and I apologize if Sheila asked you this. Can you use the laser pointer and show me on that map Grand Jury Exhibit turn around to pace.

  • He was right here. He started running this way.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So are you, some people are good, some people are not good about estimating distances.

  • Are you good at estimating distances do you think?

  • Pretty good.

  • Can you give an estimate as to how many feet. And if you can't do feet, Sheila had said before use car lengths as an explanation, but how far he traveled from the time he turned around until he fell into the street or fell on the street.

  • I'd said about two or three feet.

  • Two or three feet.

  • Two or three feet. So you had used the laser pointer to say he was about right there when he turned around?

  • He turned around here. (indicating)

  • Where did his body come to rest?

  • Right here. (indicating)

  • So where I'm pointing is that about right?

  • Did you ever see him run off of the street?

  • Never saw him get in the grass or turn up into a park lot or anything?

  • He didn't do that.

  • I want to make sure I heard clearly. When he turned around and charged the officer, he only moved two feet, two to three feet.

  • I'm not exactly sure how many feet it was, but I know for a fact that he was in front of this patch of grass when he turned around and I know that his body landed here for a fact because I was standing there and I seen the whole thing.

  • Or I was sitting there.

  • You kind of described it as charging at the officer once he turned around?

  • So you're saying he only moved a couple of feet, though, in that charge?

  • Well, yeah, because he didn't get far before the officer started firing because I wasn't going to, he didn't let anyone run up on him.

  • So as soon as he turned around and started moving towards the officer two to three feet, the officer started firing?

  • I just want to make sure I understand. What you are saying, you are saying that the officer started shooting when Michael Brown ran to two or three feet, charged two or three feet, you're not saying that's all he charged?

  • That's not all he charged, but like he turned around and he started running towards him charging, he told him to stop like three times. Like two or three feet he got before they started shooting. He kept running.

  • Like the first few bullets didn't have any phase in it, he just kept running.

  • So he didn't just go two or three feet, he went two or three feet when the officer started shooting?

  • again. Could you see, I guess in one of your transcripts, you said he shot him three times. Did he actually see him getting shot three times?

  • I don't know if it made contact. He fired his gun three times at first.

  • And then he said stop some more and he kept coming and then he fired the gun four more times.

  • Could you demonstrate how he turned, or when he stopped and turned around and started coming back towards the officer?

  • Yeah, but like when he was running away, he kind of like stopped for a second. And then kind of like he put his arms up and he started charging towards the officer like this. (indicating)

  • Okay. So he never did this? (indicting)

  • For a second it looked like he was going to put his hands up, but he brought it back down. When he charged the officer like that, that's when you heard the first three gunshots. I don't know where he, I guess the little thing on the fucking news where it had it in his hands. So that's where I assumed where it hit him. I did not see it hit him.

  • You are saying he went like this and then like this? (Indicating)

  • Yeah, he kind of like, he thought about putting his hands up for a second. He just didn't do it.

  • Is that when he proceeded to charge this officer?

  • Okay. Let me make sure I'm clear. This is really an important part for a lot of, I think the grand jurors. When you said it looked like he was thinking about putting his hands up or not?

  • That's the point, it looked like he may have thought about it. Like he wanted to.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) So was he doing it?

  • No, he like, his hands were open at first, and it looked like his arms were going to start to go up.

  • Did they go up at all?

  • He got like shoulder length like this and then he balled his hands up and then he went like, folder his arms in and started charging towards him.

  • Okay. So you demonstrated that his hands were open and they went up shoulder length and then they came down and balled up?

  • And that's when you said he charged at the first two to three feet?

  • The officer shot him several times, you think three, so that didn't stop him?

  • It was three at first. I don't know if the bullets, it was three shots at first and then four.

  • Okay. The three shots and then what did Michael Brown do after those three shots?

  • He kept running.

  • He kept running toward the officer?

  • He kept trying to charge him.

  • Do you have any idea how he came to the officer. After those three shots?

  • Right. And then he fired four more rounds and then it was like maybe two rounds after that. Maybe one or two.

  • Okay. When he fired the four more rounds, what did Mike Brown do?

  • He kind of stopped. He kind of staggered a little bit and then he kept kind of coming forward but he was running as fast as he was. And then I heard the last two shots, I believe it was. And then you seen him like stop and he fell to his knees and his face hit the concrete kind of hard.

  • Okay. So those last four shots you said he stopped and he staggered?

  • How many more feet did he --

  • It really wasn't no feet after that, maybe like a few inches after maybe.

  • And then the officer fired two more shots?

  • How close was the officer to Mike Brown when he fired those last shots?

  • Probably about as far as she is from you.

  • We'll do it, okay. I will walk back and you tell me when to stop?

  • Okay. It was like right there, like right there.

  • So like 15 feet or so maybe?

  • That's how far the officer was when you fired the last shot or heard?

  • And, ma'am, you said the officer was backing up?

  • He was backing up the whole time he was yelling at him.

  • When he was firing those last shots, was he saying anything, the officer?

  • I don't believe so, no.

  • You never heard Michael Brown say anything?

  • No, I didn't.

  • You weren't in earshot?

  • Yes. Rather than talking distance, can you tell me about how many steps he took by the time Michael turned around until the officer started shooting and how many more steps he took after the first round of shots?

  • Uh, like the same probably, I don't know.

  • 15 total steps?

  • Steps, like footprints?

  • Each step, to me a step is like two or three feet, and you are describing two or three feet, in my mind that's one step. Is it more than one step he took towards the officer before he started shooting?

  • Multiple steps.

  • I don't know how many steps physically.

  • When you talk about feet, you talking about steps?

  • No, I was talking about like feet and yards and stuff like that.

  • I just have one quick question, Did you say that your vehicle was parked on the same side?

  • No, it was the side of the streets.

  • You were on this side?

  • So you can see, you were parked here by the trees?

  • Not that this is the actual footage, but you can see clearly straight down?

  • Did you ever see the expression on Michael Brown's face?

  • No, I did not see the expression on his face.

  • But you could see the charge?

  • Okay, thank you.

  • That's an interesting point. You characterize it as charge, could he have been staggering?

  • When he first started running, ma'am, he was not staggering. He was charging this officer and that's how I feel it was, like he was running towards him. If he had got close enough, I feel like he would have tackled him up against the car.

  • (By Ms. Whirley) Up against the car?

  • The cruiser.

  • So they were near the cruiser when he came back?

  • He was coming this way going west towards this and the cruiser was here. He was running past this actual not too far behind the cruiser and was saying stop, stop, stop and that's when he started firing and the officer went this way instead of going back towards the cruiser, he came across the street this way.

  • The officer did?

  • Okay. So the first shots, you felt he was charging him after the first shots, do you still feel he was charging?

  • The first three shot after that he was still charging at him and then after the fourth shot, it looked like he was staggering.

  • Okay.

    Could you not see his face?

  • I could see his face.

  • Michael Brown's face because it was up or down or did you not pay attention or could you not tell?

  • I would be able to see his face, but he was kind of like running like, like I said, like a football tackle, like he was going to tackle the officer. I couldn't really see the expression on his face.

  • Okay. So it is not that you were too far to see it, it was just that you weren't at a good angle to see it?

  • You didn't hear him making any noise at all?

  • He didn't scream, he didn't act like he was hit?

  • He didn't say wait or --

  • That was the shocking part, that's what really made you pay attention.

  • I give up or whatever.

  • It looked like it didn't have any affect on him at all. Like it wasn't even happening.

  • And there is no, in your mind, there's no way you say this young man wasn't charging?

  • And there's no way he could have been saying, you know, I'm hurting, I'm giving up, there is no way you feel it could have been mistaken?

  • No, it wouldn't have been mistaken.

  • This is really important.

  • I'm not, you know, really big on talking to the police or defending police or anything like that. I'm just being real honest with you.

  • That's all right.

  • I feel like the officer was in the right, that is a lot of saying. Because other than that, I ain't got nothing to do with them.

  • I mean, do you feel like this could have ended up any other way?

  • Yeah, it could of, if he had of just stopped running, yeah, it could have ended a different way.

  • That's the other way it he could have ended another way, the officer had no other choice?

  • He could of had another choice, but it could have ended in him being physically hurt. Thank you.

  • At the time he turned around, he then shot, or even when he first turned around, did you see see him grab for his hand or his shorts?

  • Thank you.

    At the

  • He never grabbed his side or anything like that?

  • again. What about when he was falling, you say he went to his his knees, were his hands going down at the time?

  • When he fell to his knees, his arms were just like, it didn't really affect him, you know what I'm saying? His arms is like he had them right here. He just kind of like fell on his knees. He got kind of like he stopped, and he staggers and then he dropped like this and hit like this on the ground.

  • Anybody else?

    (End of the testimony of Witness 48.)

  • We're back on the record, November the 3rd of 2014, approximately 11:20 a.m. We're going to play a recorded statement of

    who testified last week. It is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 63.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 63 marked for identification.)

  • We will play the recording. I don't know exactly how long it is, but I don't think it is very long. Let me bring it up and I can give you an idea.

    This is November 3rd, 2014, Sheila Whirley. I was attempting to play Grand Jury Exhibit Number 63. It is not working so we won't be able to hear that one. We will hear Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49. A statement, recorded statement of You already have the transcript for that one. We will go ahead and play that one.

    (Playing the audio recording of the interview of

  • That concludes the statement of , which is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49. It is approximately 12:01 p.m. Might be time for lunch.

  • Yeah, said the lunch, she was going to go get it at noon, hopefully she will be back any time.

    For this afternoon, hopefully at 1:00, will come back and then at 2:00, I have scheduled , the person you just listened to and then at 3:00, I might try to move up a little bit is going to be He is going to explain how radio calls work so you can understand that aspect. So we will break for lunch right now and hopefully your lunch will be here soon.

    (Lunch recess taken) of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

    EXAMINATION

  • Good afternoon.

  • Good afternoon.

  • Now, you were here previously on October 23rd and you gave some testimony, and then we actually had to recess early that day and we weren't able to complete your testimony, so thank you for coming back today.

    What I want to start with, though, is that after your testimony on October 23rd. You and I had a phone conversation where I had called you because we were trying to figure out another date for you to come back, do you recall that?

  • And during that phone conversation, well, let's back up a little bit.

    On the 23rd, on the day that you left after you were done testifying for the day, do you recall we talked about a notebook that you said you had written this down in?

  • And do you recall telling me it was like a journal that you had kept?

  • You asked me if I would like you to bring that notebook back with you?

  • Did you do that?

  • Is that what you have in your hands there?

  • So what is this notebook, what is it that you have with you?

  • Urn, since my prior accident, my doctor told me to write down everything so that I don't forget it because I have a habit of forgetting people or I have a habit of forgetting where I was. There is a lot of things that I don't remember. He told me if I write it down and I can't remember it, I can always go back and read it.

  • You were in a car accident some years ago, correct?

  • Urn, Valentine's Day, oh, shoot, she was born, 2001.

  • And so you have memory problems as a result of an injury, head injury that you sustained in that car accident?

  • Yes, I went through the windshield of the car head first.

  • And so, I don't say this to embarrass you, I think you already have talked about this when you were here on the 23rd. Do you have any mental health issues?

  • I'm bipolar.

  • And do you take medication for that?

  • Urn, not for the bipolar, well, the medication that I take works both for migraine headaches and the bipolar, but it is actually prescribed for the migraines so that I'm not labeled.

  • So that you're not?

  • Labeled as having a mental illness. The doctor prescribes it as the form of for the migraines.

  • So what do you take? A

  • And does that help you with the migraines?

  • 80 percent of the time, yes.

  • Does it help you balance yourself out as far as your bipolar disorder?

  • I guess. It is the only thing I take for it. I mean, I don't have

  • How long has it been since you had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder?

  • I believe it was 1985.

  • So that was well before the car accident?

  • And so the car accident is not the cause of your bipolar disorder?

  • And are you currently under the care of any physician or psychiatrist for your bipolar disorder?