The transcripts of the Grand Jury testimonies about the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

  • Good morning. It is November 11th, Happy Veterans Day everybody, and it is 8:42 a.m.

    So we had originally planned we were going to go to 2:30 today. As I've mentioned to you in the past because we are drawing kind of near the end, it is difficult sometimes for me to get enough people to fill your day. Today might be one of those days where we get done early. But originally I had scheduled an officer to come in at 8:30 this morning, he was going to talk to you about he actually measured Darren Wilson's car and so forth and photographed it.

    He called me on the way to work this morning he said he's a crime scene detective and he is right now at a crime scene. And so he asked if I could push his testimony off three or four hours. I said, well, just text me when you're done and we'll see where we are.

    I have photographs that he took of the vehicle and then I also have a sheet of paper that actually was, I think, emailed to me quite some time ago with the measurements on it that he had taken.

    Urn, and so what I would propose to do is that I believe it might be helpful for you to have those things prior to going down and looking at the car, just for your own sake.

    And so if anybody has an objection to that, you know, I would like to hear. My thought was I could give you those photographs and the measurements and then you all can go look at the car. And then when you come back, if you have questions for that officer, you know, we can get him in later this morning and you can ask questions about what he did.

    You know the only thing he was going to testify to, yeah, I took these photographs and, yeah, I took these measurements. So, you know, unless you had additional questions for him, that's kind of, you know what I mean, it is not like really earth shattering.

    So that's my proposal that if you are ready, I will get that stuff for you because I didn't bring it in here yet to make a copy of measurements for everybody.

    Pass the photographs around so you can kind of look at them before you go out there and then you go out and examine the vehicle and you take the time that you need to do that.

    Our investigator has made, he has a couple of steps that he made so he'll give you those for you to use if you want to do some of your own investigation. And then at 10:30, I have scheduled the field training officer for Darren Wilson when he was an officer at Jennings. You asked about that a little bit ago, I contacted him, he is coming in at 10:30.

    I will probably do a very brief questioning of him and what his duties and responsibilities are, and then you can ask him questions that you think you need to ask.

    And then I have, we have the physician's assistant coming in. She can't be here till 1:00. Again, we maybe have a gap there and so she will be here at 1:00 and she will be the last witness of the day.

    Urn, in the meantime, while you're gone examining the vehicle, Sheila and I talked about it and we thought we don't have actually the physical evidence over here at our office yet. That is a plan before this is all done you are going to be able to look at things that you want to look at.

    There's, we're not going to have discs brought over, there is no point in looking at a disc because there are lot of discs in evidence.

    We do have the clothing of Michael Brown, which is, as you would imagine is bloody, it is dried, but it is still bloody. Those are packaged and in a box. We'll bring that box over for you, but if you all want to open the box and look at it, we're going to have to get you gloves and masks and stuff like that to do that.

    But everything else that is in evidence like the gun, shell casings, the bullets, things that, you know, the sandals, the bracelets, you know, things that were seized, we're going to have those all in a room for you to examine as much as you want.

    And then in the meantime, though, I thought Sheila and I had said it might be time, that you could spend working while you are gone examining the vehicle, I could put out a lot of these photographs that we've seen over time, crime scene photographs, and that way, you know, as you are sitting here, if we're waiting for the next witness, you all can kind of pass those around and look at them at your leisure or talk about them just so you're not sitting here twiddling your thumbs.

    And then have you all thought any more, because like I said, we are nearing the end. Are there any additional witnesses that you think you need to hear from or would like me to try to get in, other than as I mentioned, we're still, there is still about four or five lay people who, you know, have given some kind of statement in the past about having seen something, we are trying to get them in.

    So we may or may not get all or none of them in before this is over, but is there anyone else that y'all would like to hear from or if you would like to recall a witness, we'll need to know so I can get that scheduled before, you know, we conclude everything.

    So y'all can talk about that while you are looking at photographs and stuff too. If there is any additional people you like or again, if you want to hear all of the witnesses' testimony is on an audio disc. We have transcripts of that, so if you want to review somebody's testimony while you're here, we can certainly play that for you or just give you a transcript or whatever you need to review things, okay.

    So with that being said, I guess we'll take a recess or brief break now while everybody gets their coats on and I'll get and and we'll get you over there to look at the vehicle.

    And just so you all understand for the record, this is not Darren Wilson's vehicle, this is another Tahoe that's the same make, year and model as Darren Wilson's because the door, as I explained, is still not on Darren Wilson's vehicle, but the measurements that I have, actually, don't get your coats on yet. I told you I was going to get you the pictures and the measurements.

    So we'll take a recess now and I'll go get those and when you are ready to go over and look at the vehicle, we'll get and to take.



  • Good morning. This is Kathi Alizadeh, it is November 11th. Sheila Whirley is here, all 12 grand jurors are here and the court reporter is taking down what's being said.

    So this morning y'all went over, went to look at the police vehicle. That is the same make, year and model as Darren Wilson's vehicle or the vehicle he was driving on August 9th.

    You all had plenty of time to do that. Is there anybody that felt they didn't get to see what they wanted to see?

    Also, prior to you all going out there, we had planned for our witness to testify who actually photographed and measured, took certain measurements on Darren Wilson's vehicle. He was going to testify this morning prior to you seeing that, but the crime scene detective was actually called to a crime scene this morning. So it is my understanding that you don't have any questions for him? So I will let him know he doesn't need to come in.

    Right now we're waiting for our next witness. So in the meantime I passed out some photos that have already been, not introduced, but you all have seen them, but I passed them out so if you all wanted to look at them again.

    I've also given out a another transcript that contains Darren Wilson's testimony and then there was also a request to hear again Grand Jury Exhibit 59, which is a disc that contains a video audio file that a witness, was actually talking on Glide, an app that allows you to talk in realtime. He inadvertently had recorded some of the gunshots. If you recall, he said there were two shots before he began the recording. So there was a request to play that again.

    It is in a loop. So if we don't stop it, it will do it all over again. So we'll just let it go and when you all have heard enough, you let us know and we'll just stop it.

    (Playing of the audio recording.) of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Could you state your name and spell it for the court reporter, please? A

  • Where are you employed, sir?

  • I'm employed at the City of Jennings as a lieutenant in the corrections department and I'm also employed at Velda City as a police officer.

  • And so you a commissioned police officer?

  • How long have you been a police officer?

  • So did you graduate from the St. Louis County Police Academy or from a different police academy?

  • I went to Eastern Missouri, which is in St. Charles County.

  • Okay. And did you graduate from there in 1997?

  • Yes, ma'am, December of 1997.

  • And what was your first job out of the police academy.

  • Worked at the City of Pine Lawn.

  • How long were you a Pine Lawn police officer?

  • I worked there on two different occasions. First time I was there approximately a year.

  • After you were there for a year, were you a police officer in Pine Lawn?

  • Where did you go after that?

  • City of Normandy.

  • How long were you a police officer in Normandy?

  • How long were you a police officer there?

  • Approximately nine years.

  • Following then did you go back to Pine Lawn at that point?

  • How long were you with Pine Lawn again?

  • And then after that where did you go?

  • The City of Jennings.

  • And how long did you work as a police officer for the City of Jennings?

  • Approximately three years.

  • And were you a road officer during that time period?

  • And when you were with the City of Jennings, were you ever a field training officer?

  • Prior to the year being a field training officer in the City of Jennings, were you ever a field training officer at any of the other police departments where you were employed?

  • All right. So when is it that you first became a field training officer?

  • When I worked for the City of Normandy.

  • Is there any additional training or any tests or any other qualifications that you need to have other than having graduated from the police academy in order to be a field training officer?

  • There's no legal requirements, most departments have policies. There is no testing for it. The academy, the police academy, you go to the police academy, they have the field training course, usually a week long.

  • So there is a field training course with the police academy?

  • Did you take that?

  • All right. And so when you become a field training officer, what are your duties and responsibilities. You are still a police officer, correct?

  • You still patrol and enforce the laws of your municipality or the community, correct?

  • But what additional duties and responsibilities does a field training officer have?

  • When you get, a new officer is hired in, you take them and you are responsible for them and instructions on doing the job as a police officer. Also policies and procedures of your agency and to mentor them to become successful police officers.

  • All right. How long did you do that for the City of Normandy?

  • I didn't do it continuously because I went to different positions for about two years though.

  • And then after leaving Normandy, you went back to Pine Lawn for about a year. Did you, were you a field training officer in Pine Lawn?

  • And then after that, you went to Jennings and you said you were a field training officer in Jennings?

  • And so when a new police officer is assigned to you, for you to be his FTO, how long is it that you are training that officer?

  • There is different levels of the training. They are under your direct supervision, ride along with you, usually for six weeks and then depending on their performance, you decide whether they are going to be released to a vehicle on their own, but you still shadow them.

    You are still training the officer, you are still responsible for them. They're on probation for up to a year. You are basically responsible for that officer for that whole time.

  • And so typically an officer might ride along with you for up to in excess of six weeks?

  • Now, these officers that are assigned to you, are they commissioned police officers?

  • So they've already completed their training at a police academy, they've already been hired by the City of Jennings?

  • How many officers have you mentored or been a field training officer for?

  • I'm guess maybe about ten.

  • And during that time, have they all been brand new police officers fresh out of the police academy?

  • So sometimes are your trainees already experienced police officers, but they may be new to your municipality?

  • And so you said that they would ride along with you for a minimum of six weeks and then depending on how you felt they were doing, they might then have their own cars?

  • And then do you always work the same shift as your trainee?

  • And so if they go on a call, do you go with them on a call?

  • But in a separate car?

  • So is it your job then to kind of observe, let them handle the call, but to be there to help them or observe how they are doing?

  • And were you the field training officer for Darren Wilson when he was a Jennings Police Officer?

  • And do you remember when he came to Jennings, was this his first job out of the police academy?

  • So he was a brand new police officer?

  • And so did he ride along with you for at least six weeks before he then got in a vehicle on his own?

  • Okay. And just in general, how did you think he did as a trainee during that six weeks?

  • He did very well. Out of the officers I have trained, he was one of those that was probably a better officer.

  • And then after the six weeks were completed, did he then begin to ride on his own?

  • And did you continue to train him or be his mentor for that first year that he was a police officer in the City of Jennings?

  • Okay. Now, when a trainee begins to ride on their own, are they allowed to make their own arrests?

  • And so they can function in every way as a police officer in the City of Jennings, except for the fact that they have somebody that's watching over them, correct?

  • Did you ever have any concerns about Officer Wilson having a bad temper?

  • No, ma'am, no.

  • Did you ever have any concerns about Officer Wilson using excessive force during an arrest?

  • How did you feel he worked with the community in the City of Jennings?

  • Urn, I thought he did very well. One point that really stands out that I remember distinctly while he was riding with me in the first six weeks, we were having a conversation and he brought up the topic he said, I feel comfortable with the police work side of it, but I have not had much experience in the African-American community, such as the one I'm working in now. I haven't been in that community. Can you help me with that?

    I really thought that that was, admired him for doing that because it is hard for somebody to admit that. He took a vested interest in learning about the community he was working in.

  • So at the time that he was in the City of Jennings, would you say that the population of Jennings was, the majority of the population were African-American?

  • It is, as it is today I would say.

  • Did you ever witness him being what you consider inappropriate as far as anything that you thought was racist that he might do or say?

  • Now, I explained to you that there was an interest of the grand jurors coming in and asking you some questions, so I'm done asking questions.

    Sheila, do you have any questions?

  • Yeah, I do have just a few. So tell me how long did you work at Jennings before you became a field training officer?

  • Within my first year they had me start training at the end of my first year.

  • Okay. Your first year. Did you have to be on probation for a year.

  • I was still on probation when I started training officers.

  • You were on probation, but serving as a field training officer?

  • Okay. And you mention that you had been a field training officer at Normandy, which was before you went to Jennings?

  • How long did you work at Normandy before becoming a field training officer.

  • Uh, probably about three years.

  • Okay. And you were a field training officer at Normandy, I think you said, for two years.

  • What was your rank when you field training officer in Normandy?

  • Just patrolman.

  • What was your rank as a field straining officer in Jennings?

  • What's your rank now?

  • How long have you been a police officer?

  • I worked last night.

  • Okay. What did you teach or verify that Officer Wilson was proficient at? I mean, you were his field training officer for six weeks, how did you verify that he knew what he was doing well enough to let him be on his own?

  • In the City of Jennings as a field training officer it was computer based program, it has specific goals, also specific topics that were covered. You know, like constitutional law, your state law, your policies, your procedures and also went over the reports, like fraud report, so you had all of that. It was already lined out for you.

    And there was three things that you had to do, you had to explain that to the officer that you were training.

    The second one was that they had to be able to articulate it back to you and then the third was they I had to actually see them perform that duty.

  • A lot of that is done in the police academy, is that not correct? You have constitutional law, criminal law, report writing, same thing you just mentioned?

  • Actually happened in the police academy?

  • So you're just kind of verifying that he knows how to do it once he hits the streets?

  • Now, do you write an assessment or some type of evaluation after the training of the officer?

  • Again, that's all in that computer based program that the City of Jennings has every day. You did a daily observation report and you would go through the list and put the date in what you did that day. I don't remember weekly or monthly, but at the end you signed off on that officer. You signed off after six weeks stating that they are ready to go on to be shadowed, as we call it.

  • You did sign off on Officer Wilson?

  • He met every benchmark that he was supposed to meet?

  • Did you train more than one trainee at a time when you were training Officer Wilson or did you just train Officer Wilson.

  • No, ma'am, we never train more than one officer.

  • Just one at a time?

  • And what time period was it that you were field training officer for Officer Wilson.

  • He started with us in 2009, mid 2009.

  • Okay. And were there ever any complaints from the residents about him?

  • I never had any issues with him or none were brought to me.

  • So it is possible there were, but you don't know?

  • Okay. And you already answered no complaints about excessive use of force, correct?

  • No, ma'am, none.

  • What did you teach, is there anything taught about use of force while you're training officers?

  • Yes, ma'am. Two things that are big issues with law enforcement. You go over right away with them pretty much one is use of force. The second is your emergency vehicle operations, those are just two things that officers civil liability affects people's lives. You get your policy out of your agency at the time, you go over it with them, make sure they have that. Make sure that they refer to that any time.

    Jennings, in our police department, we have mobile data computer terminals. You can always look back and look up the policy while you are on the call or anything of that nature to refer to.

    So you go over that policy and then for myself, I would go through scenarios like after we have been on a call. I would play the what if game and have him articulate to me what he would have done in this situation. What if this occurred, how would you handle it and play the what if game.

  • Okay. So there's written policy and then you kind of do hypotheticals to verify his knowledge of what he knows what he needs to do.

    What did you or your department do to assist Officer Wilson with working with the African-American community? You said that he actually asked you, told you that he wanted to work with the community or he didn't know much about African-Americans and I guess wanted to be a better officer in the African-American community, what kind of assistance was he given?

  • It wasn't he wasn't familiar with African-Americans, my whole career I have worked in the North County area. I would go over my experiences. I was born and raised in the North County area. Went over, like I say, experiences I've encountered. What is important to the community.

  • What is important to the community?

  • One of the biggest issues I've seen with young law enforcement they don't take a vested interest in the community.

  • I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the last one?

  • They don't take a vested interest in the community they work in. We go to work every day, the residences are throughout, not usually in the community you work in. And you come there for 12 hours a day, you go home.

    The residents, that's where they live, that's their home base and it is really important you take a vested interest in that. When you do, your job is a lot easier. I think it is better with the relations with the residents and on your calls. You understand things.

  • Tell us what that looks like taking a vested interest in the community, what does that look like? I mean, those are words, sounds good, but what does it look like?

  • I'm not understanding your question.

  • Like what kind of things are done to take a vested interest in the community.

  • For myself, when I worked in Normandy.

  • I want to know about Jennings?

  • I'm just using a example.

  • I understand, but this is kind of a specific question because I'm referring to when you mention Officer Wilson wanted to, I guess, be a better officer with the African-American community, right?

  • That was at Jennings?

  • Now Jennings is very heavily populated with African-American; is that right?

  • Before I go back to that question, do you know how many African-American officers were working at Jennings at that time in 2009 when you worked there as field training officer?

  • Two officers.

  • Out of how many officers?

  • I don't remember the total number, I think it is 40.

  • I think it was in 40.

  • Out of 40 something officers, two were African-American?

  • Were there any African-American field training officers?

  • Okay. So now going back to the question. What kind of things did you do to help Officer Wilson understand how to work better with the African-American community?

  • I know you don't want to talk about Normandy, but I was a school resource officer there. In Jennings a lot of the residents that I had as a school resource officer in Normandy were now residents of Jennings. I would go to those communities on a call.

    One example is female, she has mental health issues. And she's fine when she's on her medications, but at times she's not. I would go and check on her once a week after I had been on a call there. How you doing. I was able to when she was not on her medication talk to her and get her back on medication. That's taking a vested interest in the community. It is not just going to the call and answering it and writing the report and leaving.

    It is going back on a stolen car, did you get your car back, you know, did you get it fixed, things of that nature. That's taking a vested interest in the community.

  • As a school resource officer I was able to show him that he was always teased, everybody knows you. When I was a school resource officer, I did the adopt a student. I would take them to the basketball games. I took them to those things when they came up. That's taking a vested interest in the community.

  • This is during your period as field training officer at Jennings with Officer Wilson?

  • Correct, and showing him that and those things.

  • Did you ever see Officer Wilson do some of those things with the African-American community?

  • Yeah, I've seen him buy meals for the youth, I've seen him follow-up on calls, go and talk to the residents, you know. He wasn't encompassed in that police car, he was out and about in the community.

  • Okay. Questions?

    What type of behavioral screening is there in the academy or maybe you as a trainer, are there warning signs, certain personality types that you would fail them from becoming an officer just because of behavioral issues, you understand?

  • We have, I know for the City of Jennings you have to go through a psych evaluation before you can even be hired on the department, and that's where that is determined. As far as myself, of course, if you have anger issues. The person's mental state is not stable, they can't control their emotions or things of that nature. That's the concern. That's where you address those issues. That's in your evaluations and you try to see what the remedy would be for that. Sometimes there's not.

  • There's no remedy if you fail them at that point?

  • Most definitely.

  • Have you ever failed someone?

  • I've never had to.

  • Have you ever extended a new officers time with you?

  • Never had to do that?

  • I know you talked about a lot of the goals they have on the computer and you asked the questions, but what do you look for personally. Do you look for anything personally on a personal level with a new officer that you might feel would be a concern?

  • Biggest thing for me I want to see in an officer the ability to communicate. That's the biggest part of our job communication. I look for that. I want to see can they, the problem solving, how are they, do they look outside the box. Those are the things I look for in an officer.

  • You say you do take officers, these above and beyond type things. You take them on follow-up calls even though your job as police officer is over, they see you going back and making sure that she's taking her meds or whatever.

  • For me I believe that's still our job as a police officer, I don't think it is over.

  • Your call is over, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to talk over you. And then out of my, where did you grow up, in North County?

  • Florissant area, in St. Louis County area. That's it.

  • You know the reason why Officer Wilson left Jennings?

  • That's it. You know the reason why

  • Because County got the contract with police services, we were all laid off.

  • You were all laid off?

  • Every officer there was laid off. They disbanded the police department.

  • Once Officer Wilson left your field training supervision, did you ever hear of Officer Wilson's behavior among the community in a harsh way or anything, his behavior?

  • Witness it or hear of it?

  • I've never heard anything negative on that and I worked with him after he was, we still stayed on the same shift.

  • Are you familiar with a term that was used, use of force triangle, or use of force continuum?

  • Can you describe what that means?

  • Basically it is teaching the officers a suspect can, basically what level of force do you need to use to control the situation. Not using the least amount, but to get it done effectively and get compliance. To simplify it, you have your just compliance, officer present, they're compliant. That was in the triangle, you have that in the center. And you have threatening resistent, which will be physically attack. Nonthreatening, which would be noncompliance. I'm not moving, I'm staying here. Then you have deadly force, but all goes back to the center of that triangle to where compliance is. You teach the officer, the suspect is who decides what happens. They're the one who makes the decision. Everything within the force continuum is reactive on our part. It is a delicate equation, though, you have to decide what force do I need to use, but I don't want to use excessive force, but I don't want to use too little force to where someone gets hurt also. Sometimes if you use too less of a force, then you have to use another avenue, say mace, you use that. You should have used something more forceful. You have to go to the time that's two encounters, two uses of force. Basically where you used your baton from the beginning that would have gotten the compliance.

  • This is something that is taught to the officers in all of their training, academy type of training?

  • That's taught in the academy, there's also continued training. Any time that you go to the academy in the State of Missouri you have to do 48 hours of continuing training every three years. Any time you have any class using your firearm. Any defensive tactics or anything, that's brought back up, force continuum, it's also in your policy.

  • The force continuum?

  • Yes, it is ongoing. It is an ongoing process.

  • Sure, sure. In your experience would it be your opinion to say that in a very tight compressed time situation that that was something that an officer would instinctively fall back onto?

  • I have a question for you. In either the police academy training or in what you might train as being a field training officer, if an officer is faced, finds himself in a situation and he makes a decision to use deadly force to react to something that he sees is a threat to himself or the community, is there any training in the police academy or in field training where you, the officer, is taught or instructed to, for example, if you are going to use your firearm to like shoot at their legs or shoot at an area of their body that might not be a fatal shot?

    In other words

  • All training you are taught to in your firearms training to aim towards center mass to stop the threat. Your goal, again, is compliance, stop the threat. It is not to aim for the leg in high stress situation, you're not able to do that physically.

    Also, in trying to stop the threat, the only way that the end of use firearm that you would stop the threat immediately without their willingness to comply would be something that strikes the central nervous system. A shot in the leg and they are still able to attack you and do harm to you. You can take a shot to the heart and still basically fight for up to 30 seconds easily, a minute.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So it is a part of training if you are reacting to a threat that you deem you need to use a firearm to meet that threat, you aim for the center mass?

  • Correct. When I say center mass, whatever is exposed, whatever you have. It is not always going to be just the chest, it is going to be whatever is exposed that you are aiming at.

  • We heard about two African-American police officers out of 40 something, can you tell me the number of African-Americans that apply?

  • I don't have that.

  • You don't know low or high?

  • That's all done through human resources.

  • How about when you were in the academy, what was the dynamics?

  • We had no African-American officers in my academy class.

  • You said that you were trained to hit at center mass, okay. And I've heard a lot of people in the media talk about why didn't the police officer just let him run away and put an all points bulletin on him. Can you tell me about your training as far as not just your safety, but as far as the community, would that be against what you would be taught in the academy, just let a suspect go and get him later?

  • No, ma'am. That's our job as a police officer to apprehend suspects. Whenever somebody has a crime committed or anything, they call us, we are the ones that have to respond while everybody else is trying to get away from the area. It is our duty to protect the community. That's what we swear to when we we're hired. And in doing so, you have to prevent a suspect from fleeing, then they can do further harm to the community. No, you're not taught to shy away from that. We always respond, that's our job and we know that getting into the profession.

  • Can you walk us through the protocol, kind of step by step protocol of making an arrest?

  • From what part?

  • I guess the point at which an officer determines there is a cause for arrest and then what kind of protocol is going forth?

  • Each agency has their own policy. I can give you a general rundown. As an officer you observe or probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed. And in doing so for speeding, you write them a ticket. Some agencies have policies that you have to arrest people for certain offenses, which even could be something to write a ticket for driving while suspended. If you observe the crime, you take your enforcement action. You write your report to articulate everything about that incident, the elements of the crime.

    So as far as the arrest part, that's where that comes in when you apprehend the suspect.

    From there most agencies you go to the station, complete the booking process. Usually in the municipalities the judges have a bond schedule, who has to post bond. Some are released on a summons after they are processed and you see if they have warrants, if they have to go to another agency or anything of that nature.

  • Officer , let me ask you a question. When an officer in your training, an officer, once the officer makes a determination that he is going to place the suspect under arrest, is he taught to use whatever means is necessary to affect that arrest given whatever circumstances he may be presented with.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) So, for example, if you have a fleeing suspect.

  • Is there any training based on either police academy training or training under a field officer, field training officer where you would give that suspect commands to stop and desist, get down, freeze, you know, phrases like that. And then if the suspect does not, would that, do you have any training on do you then pursue that suspect or do you just let them run away?

  • You have to look at the totality of the circumstances of that particular incident.

    You have to weigh the safety of the community, the safety of the officer. For example, in a vehicle, if their crime doesn't outweigh them running and taking off in the vehicle and us pursuing them and we hit an innocent victim and they're killed, does their crime outweigh that? No, we don't. If the danger that they could cause the community is greater, then yes, you will pursue.

  • So someone who is speeding and won't pull over, you're not going to engage them in a high speed pursuit?

  • But the suspect that you are attempting to pull over, if he has a warrant for murder in the first degree, a violent offense such as an assault or a sexual crime, you might under the circumstances make a determination to pursue that suspect?

  • So it is all dependent upon the circumstances, correct?

  • And officers are trained and taught that they have to very quickly assess the circumstances and use their best discretion and their decision making on whether you pursue that suspect, allow that suspect to get away. And what means you need to take in order to affect an arrest if you determine to pursue the suspect?

  • Did you ever have any question about Officer Wilson's ability to quickly assess a situation, like was he overly, you know, some people are over thinkers, they want to really sit back and decide, to have time to examine all possibilities and some people react too quickly without really giving thought to what they're doing. Were you ever concerned that Darren Wilson was either over thinking and might not react appropriately in time or that he was too quick to react without thinking things through?

  • I thought his judgment, he always made sound judgments on his decisions. Of course, we always go back and look how could we have done it better the next time. At the time when he is handling things, he always had good judgment.

  • Did you ever observe him to be a bully?

  • Or abuse his authority?

  • Disrespectful to people?

  • Anything else.

    In that same vein where you say you may have like, I guess, someone speeding away from you, you may say, hey, it is not worth it.

    Let's give an example, let's say you were in a residential area and there's cars going in both directions, people taking their garbage out, be people walking their dogs and the suspect is running away. How would that kind of situation be handled if you know there is other people around and other people could get hurt?

  • In a vehicle, the suspect is in a vehicle?

  • No, the suspect is walking?

  • What am I stopping them for?

  • For jaywalking, is that what you said?


  • And they take off on foot?

  • I would pursue them, if I'm taking enforcement action and take off on foot, yeah, I would. It also depends. I've been in foot pursuits where someone has jumped off a high concrete wall on the entrance ramp to a highway, I'm not going to put myself in danger to do that for a jaywalking.

  • At some point you'll say well, I mean, I see people here, people on their balcony, people here, maybe I shouldn't shoot in this situation?

  • I don't know where we got to the shooting part on this. You said simply jaywalking. You said fled on foot.

  • Fled on foot.

  • What actions?

  • You had a confrontation and he runs away on foot?

  • I can't play the what if thing game, it has to be the totality of the circumstances. I'm getting to the part where you have the suspect and you notice that their are traffic, cars, you know this is residential area and there is people on balconies, people could be walking their dog, and people taking their trash out. And this person is unarmed, would you decide maybe this is not the best way to pull my gun out or somebody else could get hurt?

  • Does he know the person is unarmed?

  • I'm getting to the part where you have the suspect and you notice that their are traffic, cars, you know this is residential area and there is people on balconies, people could be walking their dog, and people taking their trash out. And this person is unarmed, would you decide maybe this is not the best way to pull my gun out or somebody else could get hurt?

    Does he know the person is

  • I can't answer your question not with what you're saying.

  • Maybe I can rephrase it a little bit. Did you ever teach officer Darren Wilson when to or when not to open fire in a residential, to have a different response?

  • When you decide to use deadly force, it is the threat that you perceive at the time. If it is in a residential area, at times you will have to fire in a residential area.

  • Again, these are vague, you are asking vague when you have a situation. You are asking me to make a determination on something that you can't do, you have the totality of the circumstances.

  • Just for jaywalking, would I pull a gun? No. If I stop somebody for jaywalking and it turns into a physical altercation, it is not a jaywalking any more. We've gotten beyond that. The thing also you have to look at is, what I perceive that I stop somebody for may not be what that suspect perceives. I know when an officer stopped somebody for a simple speeding, little did he know that guy had just committed an armed robbery at a 7-Eleven. So the officer think's he's just going to a speeding enforcement, but the suspect in his mind thought he was being stopped for the robbery. So that decides the suspects, but for a simple jaywalking, no, you don't pull your weapon. But when the assault occurred, we are not talking about jaywalking, jaywalking is irrelevant at that point.

  • And we both, two people have used that speeding example. So if you try to pull somebody over who is speeding and they refuse to stop, would you take, what would happen, would you just let them go or would you try another means to have them pull over? Not necessarily going on a high speed chase, but would you like try to get in front of them or call somebody else to try to help you or would you just let them go?

  • You use your radio, you put radio traffic out there. You never would put your vehicle in front of another vehicle for speeding.

  • Your decision to pursue that person for speeding, a lot of times to continue to drive in traffic, you back off, get a license plate or something to go and follow-up on. But you use your other agencies, if you have a helicopter above, things of that nature.

  • When you got to determine whether or not you want to go on a high speed chase, that doesn't mean you are going to let that person get away with it?

  • I will not go on a high speed chase just for speeding, I will tell you that.

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I have a question, Officer We know a little bit about your walkie-talkie and the mobile radios in cars, and does your walkie-talkie have an alert button?

  • Yes, ours do with our agency, yes.

  • And did your walkie-talkie have an alert button when you were training Officer Wilson?

  • And is there any instruction or what do you train your officers to do as far as when it is appropriate to use that alert button or not appropriate, or is it just the officer's discretion or what?

  • The alert tone on your radio is used for when you need assistance. If you feel that you need officers to respond, you need aid, that is when you use your alert tone.

  • If, for example, you have already used your radio to call for assistance, you already verbally said I need an assist car, can you send somebody right to my location or whatever, so let me ask you. Would you say that the alert tone is more for something that's a lot more serious than, hey, send another car to assist me on a stop?

  • Alert tone is I need help, get here as fast as you can. That's when you would use the alert.

  • Maybe life or death or very serious situation?

  • I'm under attack.

  • And maybe the officer can't get to his radio to call out on his mike?

  • With our radios, they don't get out everywhere, even the alert tone doesn't get out. The radio gives confirmation that it did get received actually, but it doesn't get out. There's some buildings that I was involved in a situation where I was being assaulted and my radio I couldn't get out and transmit and my alert tone would not get out of the building.

  • You head the alert button and dispatch does not get that alert tone?

  • Correct. You know, if the radio frequency that's what it is transmitted on as well.

  • For a scenario, just a scenario, if you had already called something in on your radio, and something escalates, you wouldn't necessarily, or you would maybe necessarily use your alert button because you already know, either you knew or that's a backup way to get here more quickly.

  • You asked me to assist, things are under control. It gets to where it is volatile, I can't concentrate on transmitting on my radio, I can hit my button.

  • But you have to have a free hand to hit the button?

  • You know what Officer Wilson's range for proficiency was?

  • Officers that are commissioned police officer have to qualify on a regular basis. In other words, they have to show that they're proficient in firearms?

  • On a regular basis?

  • How often do you have to qualify?

  • We do it there every six months.

  • So that means going to a range, you have to hit the target in a certain area a certain number of times in order to be able to continue to be an armed officer?

  • Correct. It is pass or fail.

  • When you say feel, that you have to hit your alert button and you say you feel that you are under attack, what's your under attack, what's your definition of it?

  • At the time I've used my alert I'm physically involved in an altercation with a suspect or if I'm having several approach me, anywhere where I feel a threat is, it is imminent for somebody to get there to help me.

  • Suspect is running way from you, and then right in front of you would you still consider that you are under attack.

  • Somebody running away from me?

  • Have you ever been involved in a shooting?

  • Tell us about it, I mean, was it a shooting where it was a suspect?

  • It happened a month after this whole ordeal, it just happened. My situation I was on a service call --

  • Okay, wait a minute. If this is still under investigation, I'd rather you not.

  • I would agree, it is something still pending; is that right?

  • Let's not talk about it.

  • I would agree with that. I was thinking something earlier.

  • Okay.

    If a suspect is fleeing from you, what the other juror said, and you didn't really feel under attack, that would not keep you from trying to get him still?

  • Oh, not at all. I would still go after him.

  • You are still going to pursue him?

  • And that can be in second's notice?

  • It depends on the attack on myself. That's where you weigh the circumstances. The attack on myself is him getting away a danger to the community

  • When he's running away you wouldn't necessarily feel like you're under attack, so the need for an alert button wouldn't be there at that time, maybe not?

  • I won't say that, no, I'm not saying that.

  • You wouldn't feel under attack, running away?

  • So I can understand it, when a suspect after they've had an altercation with you, okay, for example, and they're running away, you would still consider them to be a threat possibly to the community because, or yourself, and I'm just thinking is it because maybe they could get a weapon somewhere, maybe they could take someone hostage, you don't know if they're armed or not or whatever, is that the mindset to this where you would still pursue them, decide it being your job to pursue and capture a suspect that's done something, you know, broken the law or whatever?

  • If somebody has assaulted me personally as a police officer, they can assault anyone out there. I mean, someone who assaults a police officer or someone in authority, what would prevent them from assaulting anyone else. Suspects know we are trained, know we have weapons of that nature, you know. If they are willing to attack us knowing that we have that, what would prevent them from attacking a citizen who doesn't have that, those tools.

  • How have you been taught to utilize your vehicle's lights and siren appropriately? I guess, what would cause you to use those?

  • In the State of Missouri state law, if you're going to violate any traffic laws or anything be consider an emergency room vehicle, your use of lights and audible signal, doesn't specify siren, audible signal must be used. In the State of Missouri at least one flashing red signal. You use those when you are responding to calls and on the severity of the call. Crime in progress or something of that nature and if you want to stop a traffic violater then you use it, things of that nature.

  • You wouldn't use it, for instance, like you were stopping someone on foot?

  • Like a pedestrian check.

  • You might use it if, you know, you are stopping somebody on the side of the highway, walking on the side of the highway, I'm going to turn my warning lights for warning purposes, but no, it is not required to stop that person. Thank you.

  • If you were blocking traffic kind of, you would turn just your lights on, but not the sirens to signify that this is a police matter or something?

  • Thank you. If you were blocking traffic

  • It depends on the roadway. I've pulled over onto the shoulder many times without turning any of my emergency equipment on. In residential areas, you park on the side of street just like cars do.

  • You are not parked, you are catty-corner, you are in the roadway of the driving of the other drivers.

  • You would try to do that, yeah. You don't always have the opportunity.

  • I don't think you want to leave it out there.

  • You don't always have that opportunity.

  • I'm trying to place a scenario more kind of what you are taught thing, trying to phrase this scenario, we are just trying to learn to understand also.

    Again, you're doing a stop where you are in your vehicle and there's a pedestrian, a pedestrian stop. Would you or would you teach someone to use their vehicle as a device to impede someone's course of walk or the direction they are headed, would you take your vehicle and block it in their path to address that?

  • At certain times you would.

  • Do you think that could be seen as aggressive?

  • By the suspect?

  • Of course, yeah, people see a lot of things that we do as aggressive just the way we are trained. Yeah, you could use your vehicle to block the path of someone. Thank you.

  • You would need a reason to block that path so at that point if you've asked somebody to do something and they haven't done that, then you would need to use aggression, wouldn't you, if you are trying to get them to do what you told them to do they haven't done it.

  • Thank you. You would need a reason to

  • They're not in compliance.

  • It is not really aggressive, it is taking the necessary steps to do what you asked them to do.

  • Any other questions?

    (End of the testimony of . ) of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to oral interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:


  • Just for introductory purposes, it is till November 11th, it is about ten after 1:00. This is Kathi Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is present, all 12 grand jurors are present, as is the court reporter taking down what's being said. And this afternoon we're starting the afternoon with a witness and ma'am, can you tell the court reporter your name and spell it for him?

  • First, , last name,

  • How are you employed?

  • I am a physician assistant with the North County Emergency Physicians Group.

  • How long have you been a physician's assistant?

  • Seven years.

  • Can you describe for the either grand jurors what is a physician's assistant, how is that different from maybe a nurse or a physician?

  • So we are considered midlevel providers. So we have master's level degree training. We practice medicine under the supervision of a physician. So in our particular practice we would practice in the same manner that a physician would. Our charts are reviewed at the end of the day by the physician.

  • Okay. And, ma'am, I'm going to stand back here because the microphones that are in front of you they don't amplify your voice.

  • If you can make sure you keep your voice up so everybody back here can hear you.

  • So as a physician's assistant, can you examine patients and diagnose patients?

  • And are your findings reviewed later by a physician?

  • Would there be times when you might examine a patient and feel that you would need to call in a physician to assess a patient?

  • Okay. And so, for example, minor injuries or things that don't appear to be emergent in nature, that's something that you can handle without a physician being at your elbow?

  • Can you prescribe medication?

  • Can you prescribe controlled substances?

  • No. In the State of Missouri midlevels do the have the option to obtain a controlled substance license as well as DEA number. Most of the midlevels in our facility do not because it is unnecessary. We don't prescribe a lot of narcotics and the little times we do, a physician is always on-site to cosign our prescription.

  • I'm sorry, can you prescribe medication?

  • license in Missouri?

  • I can go to you and you can prescribe that?

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) If you were to prescribe, for example, a nonnarcotic medication or something that's not a controlled substance like Naprosyn, is it Naprosyn or Naproxen?

  • Naprosyn is a brand name and Naproxen is the generic.

  • If you were to prescribe that, that's not a control; is that correct?

  • I can get the equivalent if I take enough Advil or Aleve?

  • To be prescription strength Naprosyn, correct?

  • You would, but actually, I can't go to the store and buy Naprosyn?

  • So if I get that, it has to be prescribed?

  • But being nonnarcotic, you can write the prescription for me?

  • And then if you were to have a DEA number and have obtained the ability to prescribe controlled substances, and that's an option for a midlevel care physician's assistant, correct?

  • Would you be able to prescribe controlled substances without a co-signature of an attending physician?

  • But you don't have that?

  • And so in this particular, well, let me ask you this then. Can you describe for the grand jurors what your training and background is in order to be a physician's assistant?

  • So I have my undergraduate degree, my bachelor of science in athletic training. And then I went on to graduate school where I got my master's of science in physician assistant studies. So in total with the 2 degrees it was about seven years of training.

  • And then when you, do you have to pass any board examinations in order to be a physician assistant?

  • Yes. We have a national certified board that we have to certify initially and then every six years after that.

  • And so a physician's assistant would not be considered, obviously, you are not a medical doctor, correct?

  • But a physician's assistant has more education and training than, for example, a registered nurse or a practical nurse?

  • Okay. And so when you are working, and where do you work?

  • Northwest Health Care Emergency Department.

  • Is that affiliated with any hospital?

  • Christian Northeast.

  • Is it a part of Christian Northeast?

  • So if somebody has an emergent situation, they are going to go to Christian Northeast, would they come into your department?

  • They may. It just depends on their location. The two emergency rooms are about 7 miles apart. It depends on where they're located.

  • On August 9th, where was your department located?

  • At Northwest Health Care.

  • Okay. And is your department attached to a hospital?

  • So if a patient walked in and there was some acute injury that needed more, needed something more than what you are equipped to handle in that facility, you would then send them by ambulance or refer them to the hospital?

  • Were you working on August 9th of 2014?


  • And when you work, is it an urgent care or is it an emergency department?

  • It is an emergency department.

  • When you work in the emergency department, do you work like 12 hour shifts?

  • Yes, 12 hours.

  • Do you remember that day what was your hours of working?

  • I was working noon to midnight.

  • So somewhere around 2:00 or so in the afternoon, you were fairly new on your shift that day?

  • And when you are in the emergency department, and there's an attending physician who you work under, correct?

  • Is he physically on the premises?

  • And so is it required that after you see a patient or examine a patient, is it required that the attending then come in and look at that patient with his own eyes?

  • No, only if we request.

  • Okay. But is it required that at some point he needs to sign off on your charts on your evaluation?

  • And now in this case, you know that you're here because you were the attending, the nurse's, I'm sorry, physician's assistant who evaluated Darren Wilson on August 9th?

  • At the time that Darren Wilson came in, had you ever met him before that day?

  • Didn't know who he was?

  • Were you aware that he was a police officer?

  • Was he in uniform when he came in?

  • Now, a patient initially comes into the emergency department, are you the first person they're going to see?

  • No. They will see our triage nurse.

  • So that's the person who is going to say, oh, we need to see you right away or you can sit for four hours like everybody has to before a doctor can see you?

  • Sorry, I couldn't resist that jab. We've all been there. So a nurse will do an initial assessment to do how quickly this patient needs to be seen?

  • Does that nurse take some basic information from the patient?

  • And then after that nurse, for example, if that nurse determines that this is not a patient that needs to be seen like, you know, ASAP or stat, or whatever your language is, then who would the next person be that that patient will see?

  • The patient would then likely see one of our techs who would bring the patient back to a room whenever it became available.

    They would take vital signs for the patient and then the person after that would actually be the nurse that would be caring for the patient while they were in the exam room.

  • Okay. Now, I didn't know if you skipped a part because we were talking about a patient seeing an admission's person.

  • So at some point once they are brought back to the examine room, whether it be before they are seen by the nurse or after they're seen by me.

  • registration person will see the patient and then primarily for insurance purposes.

  • Okay. Now, I passed out what should.

    (Grand Jury Exhibit Number 93 marked for identification.)

  • (By Ms. Alizadeh) I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 93. Prior to coming in today, when I contacted you, did you pull up the medical records for Darren Wilson for that day and review them?

  • No, I reviewed this morning with my attorney.

  • You reviewed them though prior to coming here?

  • And so do those look like the records that you reviewed?

  • And I've given a copy of those records to the grand jurors. So we can go page by page just really quickly. So the first page that we're looking at this, this is an admission form?

  • Correct, this is something that registration would fill out.

  • So this has to do with insurance and just basic pedigree information, address and so forth?

  • So then the next page is an abstract summary. Now you and I talked about this and what is, what we call coders. There are people in the hospital that have to at some point put codes into these records so that the insurance gets billed for the right procedure for what was done, correct?

  • So these codes on here for the diagnosis, reason for and then there's primary diagnosis and then secondary diagnosis, it is difficult to see because they are in those black bars. Those are all things that a coder selects based upon what they read in the records was the diagnosis, correct?

  • And they have to select from a finite number of options to put a code in, correct?

  • All right. So this is mainly for insurance reasons?

  • Okay. And then the next page, deals with at the top it says, chief complaint, alleged assault and then physicians caring for patient, it has your name?

  • So is this the information that the triage nurse would have taken or the triage person as you said?

  • Okay. And so down in the paragraph it says triage, it says chief complaint quote, and then in quotes it says, he needs x-rays he was hit in the face a couple of times.

    You're not the person who entered that into that paragraph, correct?

  • No, that was our triage nurse who sits out front in our waiting room.

  • Do you know if the triage nurse got that information from the patient or could it have been from somebody with the patient?

  • I believe it was somebody with the patient, specifically his supervisor.

  • Okay. The patient's supervisor, the police officer's supervisor?

  • And then also down it says here that on the next line, the patient presented with St. Louis County Police to the emergency room for evaluation.

    So that means he was with police officers, correct?

  • And then it says from home?

  • Right. So, yeah, usually the nurse, the triage nurse will ask, you know, did they come from, say if they were in a car accident, did they come straight from the car accident or did they go home first and then come from home.

    At some point he must have said that he came from home. Now whether or not he did or not, that's not something I discussed with him.

  • Okay. So that's a note that's put in by the triage nurse?

  • And whether or not Darren Wilson said that or one of the people with him told her that, or whether or not that's even accurate, we don't know?

  • And then also in the next paragraph where it says neuro, alert and oriented three times, skin warm and dry.

    So what is the triage nurse assessing when she's looking at someone's skin?

  • Just that he's not, that he's not pale or sweating excessively or blue or red or having any obvious issues with circulation or difficulty breathing, which may change their skin color.

  • This is part of a neurologic examine. Not like you are noticing that he has redness to his forehead?

  • Correct. Just very initial exam. Is the patient upright, is he aware what's going on, is he able to speak.

  • And, again, downward in the medical screening continued, the note is that the skin is pink, warm and dry. Is that just in general the skin on his body appears to be normal?

  • Just in general, yes.

  • And then patient denies physical or emotional abuse. Is the patient asked if he was abused?

  • This is a question that every patient gets asked when they come into our department and it is referring to domestic abuse at home.

  • Now, was there suspected domestic abuse involving this patient?

  • So every patient, and I think you said even if they came in for a sore throat or cold is asked that question?

  • And then on the next page, also down where it says abuse screening, it says patient states that he or she is not a victim of violence. Is that domestic violence specifically?

  • Yes, domestic.

  • He's not asked if somebody hurt you, he's asked if anybody had any domestic assault or domestic violence?

  • Correct, in the home.

  • In the home?

  • And then on the following page it says here on the flow sheet, you prescribe Naprosyn 500 milligrams for him; is that right?

  • Yes, and that was the dose that was given to him while he was in the department.

  • And it says here was his treating nurse?

  • So that would be the person, as you said, that once they got in the exam room might then continue an assessment and take vital signs and so forth?

  • In reading his charts and what did, his vital signs all appeared to be normal?

  • And on the following page then there's, I don't know, I'm going to call it a pain chart or pain assessment?

  • Pain scale, okay. And it indicates here, this is that took this information, correct?

  • And that's that would be that's his code?

  • And so for pain index, I imagine you are giving the patient some options. Rate your pain between one and ten?

  • Ten being excruciating, one being?

  • Very little.

  • And so the patient on those particular times graded his pain consistently on those four occasions a six out of ten?

  • And then where it says description, it says aching. Is that something the patient provided or would the nurse put that in there?

  • The nurse would have given him some options for description, such as sharp, or stabbing or aching or throbbing. And then the patient would pick the one that most fits it.

  • So Darren Wilson on that day said my pain is aching and it is six out of ten?

  • Okay. And then on the next page under nursing notes, and these again are 's notes; is that correct?

  • Says, patient to ED with complaint of bilateral jaw pain. Patient states he's a police officer and was struck twice in the face by a suspect. Patient denies LOC and NV.

    That's an entry made by the nurse, correct?

  • Is that information he would have gotten from the patient?

  • So this is information that he read on this chart that might have been put there by the triage nurse?

  • This is what the patient told him directly.

  • Okay. And so the patient said he was struck in the face twice by a suspect?

  • And then denies LOC?

  • Lost of consciousness.

  • Nausea or vomiting.

  • It says that he had no difficulty moving his jaw and no obvious deformities were noted?

  • And then where it says history of present illness, is that still taking those notes?

  • So from that point this information is what information you gather and put in the charts?

  • And when it says HPI tech, what does HPI mean?

  • History of present illness.

  • Patient presents with CO bilateral jaw pain.

  • Complaint of bilateral jaw pain.

  • Okay. So now when you are taking a history of present illness, what is the purpose to do that?

  • This is basically just what the patient tells us directly. It is not what I see or what I find on examine, it is just the incident that occurred, the information that was provided directly from the patient, and then what their specific complaint is as far as the injury.

  • All right. So the patient may say, I fell down the stairs and hit my head on the concrete floor?

  • And that's what goes in there then?

  • Are you going to ask the patient well, did someone trip you or push you down the stairs, or were you drinking alcohol that caused you to fall down the stairs or you just trying to find out how the incident occurred?

  • We might ask what, you know, as far as falling down the stairs, what made them fall and they can say oh, I tripped, I slipped, I passed out and then I fell down the stairs.

  • Okay. And in this case, someone who says I have bilateral joint pain after being punched in the face while attempting to detain a suspect, he was also scratched in the neck. Again, that's stuff that Darren Wilson told you?

  • Did you then inquire about what were you going to try to arrest the suspect for, what happened immediately prior to being punched in the face?

  • No, no, that's not stuff we would go into.

  • Okay. And let me ask you to clarify. You know that this examine you did was in relation to Officer Wilson and his involvement that culminated in the shooting of Mike Brown, right?

  • I do now, we were unaware of the event at the time.

  • Okay. So when you were treating Darren Wilson, you didn't know anything about Mike Brown having been shot?

  • Would you have treated him any differently or is there something that now you look back I wish I would have done had I known?

  • No, basically because his complaint was jaw pain, our focus is, you know, how did the jaw pain occur. He got punched. What, who punched him, you know, and then what his complaint is as far as pain or any complications from that.

    But from a medical standpoint it is not going to change how we treat him or what we do based on what led up to that event.

  • Okay. And ultimately, you know, after you having reviewed this record, you diagnosed him with contusion of the mandibular joint area?

  • And so your mandible is your jaw, correct?

  • So what is a contusion?

  • Contusion is basically a bruise, inflammation, irritation to the soft tissue.

  • And we talked about that a little bit ago about bruising and we all have had bruises, we've had kids that had bruises, do people bruise differently?

  • And do different areas of the body bruise differently?

  • We've also talked about that bruises can go through like a continuum, almost like a color spectrum from deep purposely to blue to greenish color to a yellow issue color, correct?

  • Do all bruises go through that continuum?

  • No, it really depends on the area. It also depends on the severity of the initial injury. So sometimes it can start as just a mild redness and then it resolves or it can go through the color stages of red to purple, blue and then fading to green and yellow.

  • Did you notice any swelling to Darren Wilson face?

  • Nothing significant, no.

  • Okay. And, obviously, probably we've all seen pictures and you've probably seen in real life when someone, like the entire side of their face is swollen, that would be something very evident and apparent, correct?

  • Are there times when people may have some slight swelling, but you can't tell if that might, they have a chubby face or that's just the way their face looks normally, for example?

  • Correct. Several times patients will come in complaining of swelling and it is just not evident to us because we don't see what their normal tissue looks like on a normal day. So if he complained of any swelling, it wasn't noticeable enough that I could tell.

  • So you didn't notice any obvious swelling?

  • But did you notice a contusion?

  • Some redness, yes.

  • And what causes a contusion or what can cause a contusion?

  • Any type of trauma really to the soft tissue.

  • Okay. So can a punch to your face cause a contusion on your face?

  • You also put in your records that he complains of having been scratched on the back of his neck?

  • And did you examine, look at the back of his neck?

  • Did you observe anything that looked consistent with having been scratched?

  • Yes, there were several linear marks, slight puffiness that were consistent with what he described as fingernail scratch marks.

  • Now, did you, yourself, photograph any of his injuries?

  • I did not photograph anything, no.

  • Okay. And were you present when his injuries were photographed?

  • I was not present in the examine room, no.

  • Okay. When you examine Darren Wilson, were there any other people besides yourself and the patient present?

  • Two St. Louis County detectives were present.

  • Did they question him in your presence?

  • Were they present when you asked him what happened, what happened to your face or anything like that?

  • Yes. They were present the entire time that I was in the room.

  • I'm going to hand you some photographs that are contained in a packet marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 10, and these are images Number 2 through 19. And just looking at Image Number 2, for example, does that look like the patient you examined that day?

  • Is that how he appeared when you saw him?

  • Did you seize any specimens from him by any chance or take anything from him?

  • He submitted a urine drug screen, not to us, but to an outside company called Guardian that we contact for work related injuries.

  • And you learned that this happened while he was on duty, correct?

  • And so that's considered a work related injury?

  • And then is it required that he submit a urine sample for drug testing?

  • It is based on each company's policy and for his department that was required.

  • Okay. And so did you or another nurse take his urine sample when he was there?

  • No. A representative from the company Guardian comes into the department and handles that full aspect of it.

  • And the testing of the urine sample is done by that company?

  • And then I'm just going to show you some pictures that have been taken while he was at the hospital, do you note any of the redness in any of these pictures in particular that help to demonstrate what you saw that day?

  • Yeah, his primary complaint was to the right side of the jaw, and so you can see a little bit of redness there and a little bit of redness there. We didn't notice any issues to the left side of the jaw.

  • Did he complain of pain to the left side of the jaw?

  • Very, very mild pain to the left side of the jaw.

  • Okay. You pointed at an image, which is Image Number 9, showing the redness that you saw on that day?

  • And then regarding the back of his neck, and again, these were photos taken by police not by you?

  • Are there any of these images where they depict the injuries that you describe or that are shown that we might use?

  • A little bit of redness here at the hairline. It is a little difficult to see in the photograph the actual kind of linear marks that I saw during the examine, but you can kind of see some lines developing with the redness.

  • Okay. And so you were pointing out Image Number 12 as showing the redness of the hairline?

  • And was it in this area that you saw the linear marks?

  • Now, just for sake of clarity, this mark that goes like horizontal across at his hairline, that's not a scratch, is it?

  • That's just normal skin fold.

  • A skin fold?

  • At my age we call them wrinkles?

  • Okay. So the redness to the back of the neck you were describing is this area here, along the hairline, right?

  • Did you notice any swelling in that area?

  • Did he talk about any pain in that area?

  • Nothing of significance, no.

  • Now, and I talked to you just briefly before this and I told you that Officer Wilson was photographed, similar photographs were taken of him, I believe, on the 13th, which would have been actually on the 12th. And I asked you, we talked about bruising and how bruises appear and how long it takes bruises to appear.

    In these photographs do you see any apparent bruising that might demonstrate that is consistent with your diagnosis of a contusion?

  • It appears the redness that he had initially has resolved. I don't see any of the purple discoloration that sometimes follows contusions.

  • So the fact that you do not see any of the redness three days, I'm not sure what time those pictures were taken, but let's just say roughly three days after the injury resulted or occurred, does that change your opinion as to the diagnosis?

  • No, because it will not always progress to that point that it turns into that distinctive purple bruising that we are used to seeing.

  • You still, in your opinion, is the same that you've diagnosed Darren Wilson with a contusion of his mandible?

  • And he was x-rayed and there is no fracture or any other injuries to his jaw or face; is that right?

  • Sheila, do you have anything?

  • Urn, yes. Progressing from redness to the face to bruising, which you looked at the photos of him a couple of days later and there was no bruising according to the photos, and you only saw redness on the face, correct, no bruising?

  • Progressing from the redness of the face to a bruise, would that depend on the impact, how hard a person is struck?

  • Yes. You know, generally the harder the impact, the more blood vessel involvement. So a bruise is caused by broken blood vessel. So the harder the punch, the harder the impact, the more likely you are to have more blood vessels being broken. And that's when those blood vessels start to bleed, that's what creates that purple discoloration as that blood kind of seeps out underneath the layer.

  • If the face is red, but never turns purple, does that mean that the impact was not hard enough to break any blood vessels?

  • It was likely that the impact just involved the very superficial capillary layers, as opposed to deeper tissue which would result in the deeper purple bruising.

  • Okay. I don't think I heard this asked, he did not require any hospitalization, did he?

  • So he was treated and released?

  • Did he have any injuries to his eyes at all?

  • No, he did not complain of any eye pain or nose pain or tooth pain or any head pain.

  • Head pain you said.

  • No head pain. There was no evidence of any injury to these areas.

  • So in your opinion there are no permanent injuries?

  • And you said there were no fractures. Would he have needed to take time off because of the injury that he was treated for?

  • No. And as far as the document saying that he was injured by being stricken or however it is phrased, that is his self-reporting, correct?

  • You could see redness to the face and nobody was even struck; is that correct?

  • Could you see redness of the face?

  • If he had redness to the face, there was obviously some sort of trauma to the soft tissue. But we gather that it was from a punch to the face based on his account.

  • Based on what he told you, self-reporting?

  • I could get redness to the face from several different ways or mechanism?

  • Yes. If you rub your face too hard with your hand, you could get redness to it.

  • And not have a broken blood vessels to give me a bruise?

  • That's all I have, thank you.

  • Just real quickly. The injury that you saw, is it consistent with what he reported?

  • Any questions?

    Where is your place located because I'm trying to determine how far, I'm concerned about that home answer on the application.

  • Where is your place located?

  • So we are in Florissant. We are right off of Graham Road. Hanley and 270.

  • Hanley and 270 on Graham Road.

  • On Graham Road, yes.

  • So you are right across the street from the physician building?

  • You said the area and the severity of the injury can be affected by how the bruise continues to manifest itself, correct?

  • Yes, a worsening, a deeper bruise typically indicates a more severe injury.

  • And Naprosyn is an anti-inflammatory drug.

  • So with the application of ice, what you told him to do, apply ice.

  • And consumption of an anti-inflammatory also have an affect on how the bruising would manifest itself?

  • Yes. So the sooner ice is applied, the sooner anti-inflammatory medicines are taken, the more likely that a bruise or injury would resolve sooner than if no treatment were taken.

  • Was he given any anti-inflammatory drug while he was there?

  • Yes, he was given a single dose of Naprosyn.

  • And a single dose is 500 milligrams?

  • And that's stronger than anything you can buy, you can't buy Naprosyn over the counter?

  • That's very close to Ibuprofen?

  • It is. It was Aleve, so basically prescription strength Aleve.

  • Okay. You mention that you saw no swelling, but prescribed this Naprosyn; is that correct?

  • Yes, there was no swelling that was seen.

  • Just the redness.

  • Just the redness. Naprosyn is also a pain reliever. So even without any evidence with his complaint of pain, we would have prescribed something similar.

  • Could you explain a little bit to us how that pain portion of that. So when you ask a patient for pain, kind of how that relates to what they feel versus what you as a professional can evaluate?

  • The pain scale, is that what you mean?

  • That is very subjective. So that the way that it is worded generally is, rate your pain on a scale of one to ten, ten being the worse pain that you've ever experienced or could ever imagine experiencing. So for someone who has never experienced much pain in their life may have what others would call relatively mild pain, but still may be the worst pain that they personally ever experienced. They may rate it on a higher scale.

  • So it very much differs from person to person.

  • Nothing that a doctor or nurse no matter their education or training could disagree with or agree with?

  • It is not, there's no set guidelines as far as a three is this degree and a seven is this degree, it is very subjective. Thank you.

  • What are some of the side effects of the Naprosyn, is there any warning on there do not operate machinery while taking this drug?

  • Thank you. What are some of the side

  • No, it is generally well tolerated. If anyone is going to experience anything it may be a little bit of stomach upset, but because it is nonnarcotic, there should not be any interference with operating machinery or driving a car or anything like that.

  • I'm looking on page eight of 11.

  • Can you speak up a little bit?

    I'm sorry, on page eight of 11, where it says transcriptionist, was it transcribed date and time August the 9th, 2014 at 10:18 p.m.

  • Are you saying this radiologist was reading the report?

  • The radiologist reads the report, and then a transcriptionist, someone that --so a radiologist will read a report and dictate it into a phone. And then someone outside of the building, outside of the practice will then type it out at a later time.

  • He didn't read the report until like --

  • It was read on August 9th at 4:00.

  • But the transcriber didn't do it until 10:00 p.m. that night, 10:18?

  • I was going to ask who was I thought that was you?

  • That is me, yes.

  • So you have two last names?

  • That is my maiden name.

  • Okay. So you order it up under your maiden name, then your order the medicine in your

  • Yeah, my last name is , but our computers have not been 100 percent updated with my married last name.

  • Okay. I have a question. I thought that number seven question about the swelling, how long does it take someone to swell?

  • Really varies from person to person. It really depends on the injury and location of the injury. Someone may develop swelling within minutes, some may develop swelling within 24 hours. It really depends on each person and the location.

  • When you were talking with Darren Wilson, getting assessment from him, was he 100 percent himself or was he relying on the supervisor or others around to assist with his responses?

  • The detectives that were present with him in the room did not speak the entire time that I was in there.

  • So you have an independent recollection of your interaction with this officer; is that correct?

  • What was his demeanor?

  • Urn, calm, cooperative, nothing seemed out of the ordinary to me. Possibly at most slightly apprehensive initially. I feel that when I walked into the room I was probably interrupting a discussion between him and the detectives. Once I started my exam, he was calm and didn't appear overly anxious or anything.

  • He didn't say anything to you what happened other than he was struck in the face?

  • His words were he was punched in the face by a suspect while attempting to detain the suspect.

  • Did he tell you anything else?

  • Okay.

    Could an arm keep rubbing on a face, could that have made the face red?

  • Injuries like this, is that something typically you would see on a day-to-day just because the incident happened, we have to make sure we get this documented?

  • This is something that we would typically see day-to-day. We see a lot of assault victims, not necessarily always regarding a police officer at work, but just anyone in general. But we do see a lot of our local police department coming in with various injuries that they sustain on-the-job. This was by no means out of the ordinary what we do see day-to-day.

  • Do you see regular people, lay people come in with a red face looking for treatment?

  • Ma'am, would you also, someone who maybe reports being struck twice in the face who has that type of injury that you observed. You might, you actually in this case decided to do x-rays to see if he had a fracture, correct?

  • If he had a fracture, there would be possibly other treatment involved?

  • So I guess what I'm trying to get at is obviously there's potential that this, somebody wanted to document this because obviously work related injuries, people want documented, and in the event that this was, you know, again investigated in a criminal nature or to maybe ascertain whether or not there was a more severe injury than simply my jaw hurts and it's red?

  • Okay.

    I have a question. Considering that you did give Naprosyn, did you feel that there was a need to prescribe an anti-inflammatory instead of just a pain killer, did you feel that the injuries looked like, you know, an anti-inflammatory was needed?

  • Yeah, given the injury. Usually, whether it be a contusion or a sprain or a strain, we do try to do anti-inflammatory medicines versus like a narcotic pain reliever. Simply because it does have that anti-inflammatory effect, which generally helps with the pain and helps resolve the injury a little bit more. I kind of secondarily prescribe Naprosyn versus a narcotic because I knew that he was going to be submitting a urine drug screen and I did not want something that I gave him to interfere with that.

  • Did you feel his injuries were consistent with the need to have an anti-inflammatory drug?

  • At any time did Darren Wilson mention he had already seen an EMT?

  • No, he did not.

  • Anyone else?

    . )

    (End of the testimony of

  • So Kathi Alizadeh, it is about two minutes after 2:00. We just finished with the last witness of the day and you were scheduled to be here till 2:30. I think it is a good idea if you want to cut out now.

    We talked off the record earlier today about scheduling and things that you might need because as we all have said, we're getting close to the end. Did you have a chance to talk during your lunch hour about whether or not you thought you might want some additional evidence or witnesses that you haven't heard yet or seen yet or whether or not you want to recall any witnesses that you've already heard from that you now have questions for? Did you all talk about that at all?

    We haven't talked about, I don't think there is anybody at this point. It is possible when we start getting into the deliberations that, you know, if there is a controversy, we may want to recall somebody. I would not expect that to be the case.